Do you think OW / MM are character damaged?

[scatterd]

I am not going to judge your character, because that is not my place, but an affair is more then one time. I have always said One time is a mistake, more then once is intended, but also under certain circumstance such as yours, it can cause a person to do something, that they would not normally do. Also this does not mean you will do it again. Live and Learn

[Bailey14]

What disturbs me more than anything in this thread is that a trained therapist told you you had a character flaw. I know of no therapeutic approach that calls for being unkind and doing further damage to a client. My therapist helps me to examine why I am content to be

involved in a relationship that gives me only crumbs. My therapist helps me to examine why I am content with 3-4 hours a month with my MM. My therapist helps me to examine why I am content with the prospect of growing old alone.

And, btw, I am content with none of these things but, it is not the job of a therapist to cause added pain to someone who is suffering already. I do not know what kind of training this woman had but, she is incompetent and it makes me very sad that she damaged you.

[jwi71]

I was told by my then- counselor of a few years, that I had a character flaw for having an A with a MM. I felt offended; I asked her to take that comment back, but she stood by what she said, so I fired her.

 

I then ran this past the shrink I was seeing (he had seen me three years, had prescribed anti-depressants) and he knew my marital history and my serial-cheating H's history. I had been faithful in a twenty year marriage with NO cheating on my side, despite several affairs from my H, over the years. I had never slept with any other man besides my H.

When I saw I couldn't change my cheating H, and my needs went unmet, and I was angry and heavily depressed, I chose to have an A of my own. It was motivated by revenge - I chose a man that if my H ever finds out about my A, that my H would be severely hurt by the knowledge..

 

My shrink did not agree with what my counselor said about me, but her cutting words have stung, still, all these years later.

I want to know what others on this board think -- do all OW / MM inherently have character flaws?

 

What does it even mean when she said I had a character flaw? Does that mean that even though I was a virgin til my husband, and remained faithful to him for the next twenty years (even though he kept having affairs) that THAT history of mine MEANT NOTHING since in the end I messed up by having an A in my forties?

Surely a person's 'character' is set by the time they are in their forties? If I had NEVER freakin' done one wrong thing in my entire life up to that point, and THEN I chose to have an A with a MM, does that mean that I ALWAYS had a character flaw lurking in me?

 

Please, what do you think?

 

First, before I say anything else, WE ALL HAVE CHARACTER FLAWS.

Yes, flawS...more than one. I have so many its damn depressing. There are MANY on display in this very thread.

 

Yes, cheating is a character flaw. Period. How is it not - I'd say cheating is combination of several flaws.

As such, those willfully engaging in an A are displaying those character flaws.

 

However, a character flaw is NOT necessarily defining or all-encompassing.

 

So you have a character flaw. Big freakin' deal. Welcome to the club.

 

More interesting...is why does this particular flaw cause you so much...anxiety? Defensiveness? Hostility?

[KathyM]

First, before I say anything else, WE ALL HAVE CHARACTER FLAWS.

Yes, flawS...more than one. I have so many its damn depressing. There are MANY on display in this very thread.

 

Yes, cheating is a character flaw. Period. How is it not - I'd say cheating is combination of several flaws.

As such, those willfully engaging in an A are displaying those character flaws.

 

However, a character flaw is NOT necessarily defining or all-encompassing.

 

So you have a character flaw. Big freakin' deal. Welcome to the club.

 

More interesting...is why does this particular flaw cause you so much...anxiety? Defensiveness? Hostility?

So now cheating is just a character flaw that is no big deal? Just something to accept about ourselves as a normal part of an imperfect person? The OP SHOULD be feeling anxiety about this choice she's made. It's deceptive and destructive to her and to others. Let's not minimize it or act like it's no big deal, or a character flaw that someone should accept that they have and therefore make no change.

[Spark1111]

You don't have to ask us....you can google it and learn about it.

 

Cheaters tend to have low self-esteem, are conflict-avoidant, and poorly communicate their needs often because they were never taught in childhood, or allowed to identify needs and express them.

 

They can also be passive-agressive, and many people in affairs exhibit narcissistic traits.

[alexandria35]

I think the affair exhibits a behavior but the intent behind the affair exibits character. I also believe that people can act out of character for a short period of time.

 

OP you deliberately planned your affair with the intent to cause harm and pain to your husband. You wanted revenge. You even chose your affair partner in advance knowing that particular person would inflict even more emotional damage to your husband. In your thirst to cause pain yoiu didn't care about anyone else who may have been hurt or negatively impacted by your revenge. You wanted the satisfaction of hurting your husband and if someone else got hurt, oh well too bad for them. Was your revenge affair with your current MM? I wonder if the character flaw your first therapist refered to was actually this malice in you, more so than the affair.

[OpenBook]

I think you are confused by what character flaw means. Google it.

 

Every one of us has character flaws.

 

What flaw dominated your life or your life at the time of the affair, anger, right? Anger is a character flaw. So, you need to work/deal with your anger.

 

Huh?? Anger is a character flaw? That's a new one on me.

[threebyfate]

Leelou, why would you stay with a serial cheater, then cheat in return? This to me means a lack of strength, to walk when it's time.

[onthefence210]

I think people who have good character, don't repeat their bad decisions. I think it becomes obvious that whatever pleasure the WS might have is no longer worth the price one has had to pay for their bad choices. So if generally you have had good character then the chances of you ever doing this again will be nil. Bad character to me who have zero ownership of what they do, pass it off and make excuses, and go about life blaming everyone else for their bad behavior.

 

Definitely bad character if you've had multiple A's. Definitely bad character if your A's started early on in your marriage. Definitely bad character when you play the martyr. We can all be victims of circumstance in our lives. It's those who see their their faults as they presented them to themselves who can change. Character doesn't change.

 

Some see the infidelity as the symptom of a troubled marriage, some see it as a symptom of issues within the adulterer, and then their are those who accept the truth that it's a symptom of both. So many are quick to crucify the the WS, but only the ones in the marriage know if it's a true character flaw or if it's a good person with a whole lot of fear leading them down a path of destruction. Character cant be judged based on personality. Character is something that only people who truly know the person can judge. And that takes time.

 

I think for people who are married to people who have had multiple A's, and whatever goes along with their personality, stay out of fear. I know that was my case. I was able to pride myself for so long on being a good spouse because I was faithful and stayed comitted to making my marriage work, until I realized it wasn't just my H's problems that contributed to our marital dysfunction. My fear kept me in that situation and I could only blame that on myself. I couldnt blame him because of who he is. My anger and resentment were mine...my feelings to control. My feeling to deal with. But instead I used them as excuses to withdraw, detach from my marriage. Call it coping, but it's no different then any BS attacking infidelity posted by a stranger on this site. We all get to control ourselves. It's easy to blame it on character when one is dealing with the very character they have personally experienced...pushing their anger onto a complete stranger that they don't even know.

 

It took me getting to a point in my A when I realized I wasn't proud of me anymore. Here I had this mm on the side and I had to keep it a secret. Why was that? Because we were both married!!! Not something that I could be proud of but for a long time it made me happy. I don't think happiness is worth sacrificing your soul if you're of good character. You may not live in that reality while ur in it, but u will end the A once u feel it. It won't take a dday, you will just confess ur sins and accept your consequences. For some that is a deal breaker. But I think for most who know their spouses true character, they will do what it takes to make the marriage work. But for the WS who isn't willing to look at the reasons for the A, and I talking about the ones who they know the A was totally out of character for the WS, address the "real" marital problems...expect divorce.

 

Just the opinion of one FWS who learned that there is nothing worth not being true to who u know yourself to be, no matter how good it makes you feel in that moment. And yes...lying is my Achilles heel. And I had to become one to keep the secret. No man is worth that in my opinion.

 

And don't for a second think that your behavior is going unnoticed. Especially if it's out of character for u.

[seren]

My view is that if someone does something that they do, knowing that the action will cause hurt, pain or distress to another and continue to do it, then they probably should look at what they feel entitles them to do so. Does that mean that OW/MM are character damaged? I think the action is, very often, compartmentalised and that those same people are possibly kind to others in their life, are, possibly nice people, but, because the A is hidden and that the two worlds rarely cross until a D Day, that it is easier to live in the moment.

 

I don't hold to the view that the AP is to blame, but see them more as enablers. I have often wondered at the OW my H had an A with (lots of acronyms) who, on speaking with me and getting help from me, said that she would never have had an A with my H, had she known me. TBH I find this a bit weird and have often questioned why it is OK to hurt someone just as long as you cannot see it happening.

 

I don't think character damaged, that suggest to me irrevocable bad character behaviour, but I do think it requires a lot of self interest. Possibly one of the reasons marriages work after A's is that the WS works on what it is or was about their character that allowed them to cheat and face up to and address any issues they have/had.

 

I am speaking generally as a BS, but I have always held this view.

[mercy]

Huh?? Anger is a character flaw? That's a new one on me.

 

Uncontrolled anger. Anger that comes from deep rooted issues. Anger directed at others, a desire to lash out for the purpose of causing another pain.

 

Completely different than healthy anger, which is an emotion.

[OpenBook]

Uncontrolled anger. Anger that comes from deep rooted issues. Anger directed at others, a desire to lash out for the purpose of causing another pain.

 

Completely different than healthy anger, which is an emotion.

 

Oh ok gotcha.

 

So I guess I'm still on the fence about the definition of "character." Like the OP earlier in this thread, I am confused about its changeability over time. I guess I've always leaned toward the idea that a person's true character is formed early in childhood and lasts a lifetime, you can't really change it fundamentally. But apparently there are many here who think it CAN change.

 

I just don't know.

[woinlove]

Oh ok gotcha.

 

So I guess I'm still on the fence about the definition of "character." Like the OP earlier in this thread, I am confused about its changeability over time. I guess I've always leaned toward the idea that a person's true character is formed early in childhood and lasts a lifetime, you can't really change it fundamentally. But apparently there are many here who think it CAN change.

 

I just don't know.

 

A common definition of character as it applies to people, is a person's qualities, attributes and traits, although sometimes it is used to refer to moral or ethical strength. In either case, a person's character can change with time during their adult years, but typically not very easily. It either takes time or considerable effort, or perhaps some life-changing crisis.

 

In this thread, character is sometimes being mixed up with behavior. Behavior often reflects a person's character, but they are not exactly the same thing.

[mercy]

Oh ok gotcha.

 

So I guess I'm still on the fence about the definition of "character." Like the OP earlier in this thread, I am confused about its changeability over time. I guess I've always leaned toward the idea that a person's true character is formed early in childhood and lasts a lifetime, you can't really change it fundamentally. But apparently there are many here who think it CAN change.

 

I just don't know.

 

I really do believe there is a difference between character and character flaws.

 

To me character is who you are at the core of your being. While character flaws are those things about ourselves we'd rather stay hid. Our weaknesses. Those things we can control with help/guidance. When we allow our flaws to control us we meet nothing but trouble.

 

There is no changing who we are at the core of our being, we are who we are.

 

An evil person at the core of his being has no desire for change. Except for divine intervention. A person who feels no guilt scares the hell out of me. But I digress.

[goodthingscome]

Yes, anyone who participates knowingly in a deceitful or harmful activity has a flawed or damaged character.

 

Having good character is behaving, or "being" someone of high moral and ethical standards. And there isn't a rule book on how to be a good person, you just know. It's called Right and Wrong. How to judge if you aren't, is ask yourself, do I do anything that I can't be proud of or share with the world? If your answer is yes, that's your answer....

 

Doesn't mean you can't change and grow, but people who lack empathy, feel entitled, or are just plain selfish,unless they dig real deep and HONESTLY address "why" they behave or think like they do, usually just move on to the next "high". It's not easy to do the right thing but it will make you a better person if you try.

[OpenBook]

I guess what's really bugging me here is that the "character flaw" thing is being flung around rather carelessly. It's a dangerous, slippery slope to slap the "character flaw" label on someone when their moral compass or behavior doesn't align with or isn't approved by the accuser's. That's precisely why my ancestors migrated to America a couple centuries ago - to get away from that kind of mentality.

 

As always, IMO!

[MissBee]

I think cheating and lying and being a participant as a single ow is a character defect.

 

To me what is the bigger question is, is it a temporary thing or is a way of life.

 

Ditto.

 

Being humans, we all exhibit poor character traits at one point or the other. It's just a matter of if it becomes habitual behavior and becomes our new normal or it's something we realize isn't stellar and genuinely work on bettering.

 

When you're exhibiting beautiful character traits that are laudable, you don't need to hide it. Simple.

[Silly_Girl]

I think cheating and lying and being a participant as a single ow is a character defect.

 

To me what is the bigger question is, is it a temporary thing or is a way of life.

 

Cheating is not the same as lying and not the same as being a single OW and none of those automatically denote a 'character defect'.

 

I don't even believe that being a WS denotes a 'character defect', and the OW is easily the next step behind that.

 

I don't approve of cheating, I truly believe there are better ways of dealing with things. However, I know that different situations and personalities result in different outcomes. Some of us have learned big life lessons and some have not. I can't write all the scenarios that could lead to cheating but they vary very much and I don't believe every participant is a psychopath or defective in some way. I think repeated behaviour and value systems are more relevant and these things must be taken in context, though this is rarely the case.

[Silly_Girl]

Dupe, sorry.

Edited August 12, 2012 by Silly_Girl

[MourningLosses]

Pierre how does one show that character? I asked my friend to stop cheating on his wife. Leaving her for me and starting a new life would have been more honest IMHO therefore better. Is that having a conscience in your opinion or does it require the cheater stop cheating and spend the rest of life enslaved to a punishing betrayed wife?

[alexandria35]

Pierre how does one show that character? I asked my friend to stop cheating on his wife. Leaving her for me and starting a new life would have been more honest IMHO therefore better. Is that having a conscience in your opinion or does it require the cheater stop cheating and spend the rest of life enslaved to a punishing betrayed wife?

 

If that was coming from your conscience then you would have told him to stop cheating period. You would have told him to make a choice, her or you, and stick with it. But you didn't tell him that. You pressured him to choose you, to leave his wife and kids and be yours. That was coming from your wants and selfish desires. That he is now going to be enslaved to a punishing betrayed wife is your fantasy. You have no idea what's going on in his marriage.

[MourningLosses]

That he is now going to be enslaved to a punishing betrayed wife is your fantasy. You have no idea what's going on in his marriage.

 

I wasn't aware I was required to be altruistic or to put her desires (possibly, though I don't know why she kept him) over mine.

 

If she knew the whole story including how physical we were short of sex I can't imagine she would want to be married to him. My husband slept with someone while we were separated and even though I said go do it then I can't get the images out of my head. How much worse when he betrayed her? Why would she stay except she is fat and ugly and couldn't get another partner and doesn't want to be alone?

 

The fact he's suffering recriminations endlessly isn't fantasy. It's why he came back the first time. He chose her after she found out and within a week he was back saying he couldn't live with her constantly monitoring him and following him around and the recriminations.

 

Now the last few times I've managed to get a reply out of him it's been of the "I want nothing to do with you" message but always copying her email. I wonder why. Seems the monitoring is even more now.

[MourningLosses]

Alice from knowing him deeply and seeing how he hated her lashing out at him constantly - I can't imagine he's loving it now. More probably he knows if he doesn't she will turn the kids against him or report him to the authorities and ruin his (and my) career. I was willing to let her do that and make a fresh start but I can understand his love for his kids would stop him.

[whichwayisup]

Pierre how does one show that character? I asked my friend to stop cheating on his wife. Leaving her for me and starting a new life would have been more honest IMHO therefore better. Is that having a conscience in your opinion or does it require the cheater stop cheating and spend the rest of life enslaved to a punishing betrayed wife?

 

See, this is your assumption that when a WS chooses to stay with their BS, that the BS punishes them forever. That doesn't usually happen. If a couple decides to fix their marriage and start over, give the cheating spouse a chance to work it out, they DO..Together. Or at least give it their best. Now, obviously a WS should not stay married for the sake of it if the BS isn't forgiving them and the marriage doesn't get better over time.. Most that I've read, many couples are able to work through infidelity because they want to make it work. It takes time, patience and 100 percent effort by both spouses.

[alexandria35]

So then you could probably stop obsessing now.

 

From what you say, she's using the kids to hold him hostage in their marriage and there's nothing you can really do but wait for the kids to graduate high school.

 

Exactly!! ML I'm sure your MM will come running back to your loving arms the moment his baby has gone off to college. In the meantime looks like your just going to have to accept that your MM has chosen to stay with his fat ugly bit*h wife over you and get on with your life.