Why?

[YellowShark]

Dude, trying to have a rational conversation with a theist is the definition of absurdity.

 

They have a belief system that relies on the supernatural, which cannot be defined by physical reality.

 

Think "True Blood" - it just gets more ridiculous the deeper you get into it...

 

Please save your time for things that really matter, knowing that we will eventually evolve out of this abyss...

 

I hear what you are saying. That's why I find it so fascinating. Why would someone believe so deeply in the supernatural. But not only believe, model their behavior based upon supernatural promises. I kinda want to do my due diligence before I succumb to any dogma. It's just how I roll. Look at all options before I pick the best one for me. And when it comes to the supernatural I have zero tolerance for hear-say evidence. Especially hear-say evidence from a couple thousand years ago. So I just don't understand what the heck someone would do with "eternity."

 

I am not telling anyone what spiritual path is right for them and I understand the desire to feel a deep sense of community. I just don't need "promised lands" and "omnipotent beings" in my universe to enjoy it. It's pretty damn cool as is.. without all that stone-age mumbo jumbo.

 

Why just the other day we landed on Mars with the Curiosity Rover. Why did god make Mars? Jupiter? Hell.. why our own Galaxy the Milky Way? Mankind will never be able to cross the Milky Way so why did God waste his time building it? And there are there are about 80-100 billion galaxies in the observable universe. We will never visit any of them. So why waste time building it?

 

IMHO there must be a better answer to those questions than a single "omnipotent being" who built everything for a hand-full of people on a tiny blue speck of dust.

[quankanne]

Why would someone believe so deeply in the supernatural. But not only believe, model their behavior based upon supernatural promises. it's not the most poetic ~ or sensible ~ answer, but here ya go: Because it's solely mine. Another person may have catechize me about my particular religious faith, but the faith itself is a relationship that's purely between me and God. And that's what makes it precious. I like knowing that there's something greater than me, and that while the answers are there, I can be sure of them without necessarily needing proof. A "one and one will always equal two" kind of assurance because it's not only what I've been taught, but what I believe.

 

there are there are about 80-100 billion galaxies in the observable universe. We will never visit any of them. So why waste time building it? for me, it's not a question of "why was it built," but more about having something to marvel about. Again, I don't always need the answers to appreciate what's out there, be it something cosmically created or created by man.

 

something a colleague wrote in a column, "I can't explain my faith or how it work, I just know it works, and that's good enough for me" ...

[jimloveslips]

>Look at all options before I pick the best one for me

 

My mistake Dude I thought you were thinking for yourself there, not needing to be told what to think.

 

That's exactly why people believe - it's so much easier that there is a big WHITE MAN looking out for you, thinking for you (through his disciples on earth who are as incorruptible as any other human being) telling you how to vote, whether you should like gays, to disown your child if they get pregnant, to demonstrate outside of military bases, to start a war even when they knew that none of the reasons were proven true (I digress)

It's extremely powerful, and if you belong to that group then you must be powerful to, right?

[quankanne]

as for supernatural promises ... this has always resounded in me:

 

"… I am the resurrection and the life;

whoever believes in me,

even if he dies, will live,

and everyone who lives and believes in me

will never die ..."

 

~ John, 11:25-26

 

to me, it's a promise that my relationship with God (Father/Son/Holy Spirit) is such a strong, beloved bond that it will never be undone. That he never stops believing in me though I do dumbass sheet, simply because he loves me that much.

 

maybe it's an easier thing for me to grasp because I witnessed the strong love my mother had for her family and for her God, and that if her love was pure and possible and never-ending, then God's surely was that to the nth degree.

 

is it a Pavlovian response of sorts, then, to have faith because I know there's a huge goody at the end? For some, it's probably the case, but for me, it's just a solid knowing that something that's mine alone will always be mine.

[YellowShark]

... it's not the most poetic ~ or sensible ~ answer, but here ya go: Because it's solely mine. Another person may have catechize me about my particular religious faith, but the faith itself is a relationship that's purely between me and God. And that's what makes it precious. I like knowing that there's something greater than me, and that while the answers are there, I can be sure of them without necessarily needing proof. A "one and one will always equal two" kind of assurance because it's not only what I've been taught, but what I believe.

 

I hear ya. But why do you believe in something completely supernatural? Isn't the universe amazing enough without "The Artist Formerly Known as Yaweh," guys living in fish, coming back from the dead, and eternity in promised lands. Seems so very primitive to me, no offence.

 

for me, it's not a question of "why was it built," but more about having something to marvel about. Again, I don't always need the answers to appreciate what's out there, be it something cosmically created or created by man.

 

This is the part that infuriates me about religion. Can't explain it.. default to omnipotent being waving his magic wand. Ugh. Seriously? You have an intellect quankanne, use it! It just doesn't make sense to build 80-100 billion galaxies that we will never be able to visit just so that a very tiny handful of humans on a insignificant microscopic hunk of rock "can sit back an enjoy it." (And it can't be "empty" either. We are not the only ones in the universe, to think so is narcissistic.)

 

...something a colleague wrote in a column, "I can't explain my faith or how it work, I just know it works, and that's good enough for me" ...

 

Hey... Whatever blows your hair back I say. If you're happy, all the best. I am simply not satisfied with answers which are not really answers at all. I guess that is why religion isn't for me.

 

ETA

 

as for supernatural promises ... this has always resounded in me:

 

"… I am the resurrection and the life;

whoever believes in me,

even if he dies, will live,

and everyone who lives and believes in me

will never die ..."

 

~ John, 11:25-26

 

to me, it's a promise that my relationship with God (Father/Son/Holy Spirit) is such a strong, beloved bond that it will never be undone. That he never stops believing in me though I do dumbass sheet, simply because he loves me that much.

 

Actions speak louder than words. I wouldn't base my entire belief system on a promise from 2000 years ago. I just wouldn't. It confounds me that a smart guy like you would. This is why I struggle with religion.

Edited August 13, 2012 by YellowShark

[quankanne]

LMAO ... I read that last statement as "Whatever blows the hair on your back ..." OY, I need to stop zipping through things! :laugh:

 

I dunno. I really don't have a problem living with amazement and awe over things that, well ... amaze and awe me, because while I'm a smart girl, I respect the fact that I don't know everything. And because there's a certain joy to being open to those kinds of things, because there's always a sense of learning involved, even if it's something being revisited. It's a cause for celebration to me, simply because it *is* ... and God just fits into the equation.

 

regarding the Bible: My personal theory is that people are making it into something that it's not. It's a book explaining a journey of faith, with some references to what was going on in the world at the time to provide framework. It's about the awe thing, too ... so that people could look outside their little blindfolded lives and take notice of stuff that was happening, not just stay mentally shuttered away from life going on about them.

 

I wouldn't base my entire belief system on a promise from 2000 years ago. I just wouldn't. It confounds me that a smart guy like you would. ah ... but I *choose* to, because it makes sense to me. I don't expect anyone ~ other believers included ~ to understand my journey, simply because it is mine.

 

um, Sharky? I'm a GIRL!!!! :D

Edited August 13, 2012 by quankanne

[TheFinalWord]

But, as your rational side would know, it's an entirely subjective reason.

 

It's subjective to you, not to me If my truest thoughts are false, how can I know I exist? Decartes already answered much better than I can

 

I didn't ask for every single reason, or for you to go into them in excruciating detail. Okay, I'll make it easier. List the reason(s) (if any) that your faith actually hinges upon, such that if they were demonstrated to be false that you would actually have to re-evaluate your beliefs. Do you have anything that fits that category?

 

That each example of what I believe is God working in my life is, beginning with instant delivery of drug addiction, is wholly false. I guess if I was diagnosed with psychosis haha j/k

 

And I've given reasons why this is the case. I don't understand why you think I need to appeal to the authority of the Bible to make my case when it's the Bible (and Christianity) that I'm arguing against. That seems to me like a deliberately unwinnable challenge.

 

It's not deliberate. Let me try again

 

I'll outline it again: according to Christianity, salvation is based on accepting Jesus as lord and saviour....but if we take the intersection of all salvation checklists, belief in Jesus is common across all of them

 

Correct! Thanks for that good breakdown! You are right, all we need is to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.

 

I put "..." in between b/c I know that a lot of man made traditions try to add burdens on people. I can't help that. I'm trying to change it I hope you don't think I misrepresented you. But you nailed the crux of it (kind of).

 

Okay, but wait a sec...what does belief in Jesus entail? Can someone who never hears about Jesus get saved? "What about those tribes in Africa that have never heard of Christ. Will the go to hell? God is unfair"

 

That is a biblical question. You can study Romans if you want the theological underpinnings of that. And the answer is yes those tribes in Africa can still experience the atoning work of Christ even if they never hear about him Good news huh?

 

not everybody is granted an equal or realistic chance at finding Jesus.

 

If you mean hear the exact message of the gospel verbatim from the perfectly correct denomination (if one even exists)? No that is not going to happen. Thank God, God is kind, slow to anger, and overlooks much of our folly. Heck, I'm sure I hold incorrect theology in many places.

 

As a person and sinner, I have many flaws. For example, I can also be selfish and ignore God and other people. But He doesn't roast me for my mistakes. God is very graceful. His mercy is high as the heavens are above the earth, as psalms declare. He judges the heart and it is from the heart that reconciliation with God comes.

 

"For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved."

 

And Christ said,

 

"But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart"

 

God looks at the heart, not if we perfectly recited an exact formula or chant.

 

It's why some people can honor God with their lips, but their heart is far from Him.

 

Can we all believe in different theological underpinnings and still experience the grace of Christ? Yes. The bible is clear about that What about people that have never even heard about Christ? Yes. The same "loophole" applies to those that died before Jesus' atoning work.

 

What about those that hear and reject? No.

 

 

The other thing to consider, is that what we deem fair and unfair, is limited to our human understanding and knowledge. For example, I only know what's in my heart. I don't know what's in your heart or the kid raised in Hinduism. But God does If we're using the bible as a yardstick, then we know God is a perfect judge. He makes no mistakes. He has all evidence and knows us at the deepest levels. He will not judge someone unjustly I personally rest in that.

 

 

• Deny reality, and refuse to recognise that a person living in a fundamentalist Islamic state like Iran is much, much less likely to accept Jesus as their personal saviour than somebody living in, say, Texas where it's practically beaten into you from birth.
  
• Invent all these loopholes for people who had never heard of Jesus or people who die before they can arrive at that conclusion. And this isn't a simple thing. The age of accountability isn't exactly something you can pinpoint, but you kind of need to in order to manipulate reality into this eternal punishment|eternal reward dichotomy with no middle ground. Speaking of which...
  
• Invent "limbo" or "purgatory" in an attempt to deal with the undeniable injustice of punishing people for choices they weren't even aware of, or who had diminished capacity to make.
  
• Try not to think about it, and just reassure yourself with confirmation bias.
  
• I leave this one blank, to be filled in by you if you think I've missed anything significant.
  

Deny reality, and refuse to recognise that a person living in a fundamentalist Islamic state like Iran is much, much less likely to accept Jesus as their personal saviour than somebody living in, say, Texas where it's practically beaten into you from birth. -- Good point

 

 

Invent all these loopholes for people who had never heard of Jesus or people who die before they can arrive at that conclusion. And this isn't a simple thing. The age of accountability isn't exactly something you can pinpoint, but you kind of need to in order to manipulate reality into this eternal punishment|eternal reward dichotomy with no middle ground. Speaking of which...--Well if you want to call it a loophole, that's okay. Most things have loop holes. Paul's letter to the Romans addresses this issue pretty in-depth.

 

Invent "limbo" or "purgatory" in an attempt to deal with the undeniable injustice of punishing people for choices they weren't even aware of, or who had diminished capacity to make.--Good point. Purgatory is mostly b/c people don't like to accept that God's judgement is final.

 

Try not to think about it, and just reassure yourself with confirmation bias.--Well I think it's been a topic for a long time. If you search online you'll find this has been around for centuries. Even Paul develops a whole doctrine around it. So I don't think denial fits in. But I rest in the knowledge that God is just. He desires all to be saved. If that's His desire, then I can rest in knowing that He will make His desire known to all people.

 

I have to wrap this up now, but I will get back to the remainder of your post later today.

 

No problem! I have to leave for a few days. But I'll try to find this point in the thread when I get back. Have a good week quickjoe!

Edited August 14, 2012 by TheFinalWord

[YellowShark]

I dunno. I really don't have a problem living with amazement and awe over things that, well ... amaze and awe me, because while I'm a smart girl, I respect the fact that I don't know everything. And because there's a certain joy to being open to those kinds of things, because there's always a sense of learning involved, even if it's something being revisited. It's a cause for celebration to me, simply because it *is* ... and God just fits into the equation.

 

This is where I evolve and you don't sadly. I don't need the supernatural in my Universe. It's just great without it. In fact it is better for me because I don't stop learning then. I don't throw up my hands and say "God moves in mysterious ways," or "It's God's will." I know there is a more rational explanation out there than a supreme being doing everything. That's what I like about science, there is no good or evil, no miracles or 2000-year-old promises.. just truths which I can verify.

 

regarding the Bible: My personal theory is that people are making it into something that it's not. It's a book explaining a journey of faith, with some references to what was going on in the world at the time to provide framework. It's about the awe thing, too ... so that people could look outside their little blindfolded lives and take notice of stuff that was happening, not just stay mentally shuttered away from life going on about them.

 

I just can't believe in a book written 2000 years ago. Seems endless supernatural stuff happened 2000 years ago and then POOF! Nothing. Seems pretty odd if the most important thing in the Universe did all things 2000 years ago and then disappeared.. literally took a holiday. Doesn't make any sense to me. I need better evidence than tales from an ancient book.

 

ah ... but I *choose* to, because it makes sense to me. I don't expect anyone ~ other believers included ~ to understand my journey, simply because it is mine.

 

Why does it make sense to you? The Koran probably doesn't make sense to you and the Bible probably doesn't make sense to a Muslim. Well you both can't be right.

 

um, Sharky? I'm a GIRL!!!! :D

 

Ok.. Well then you seem to be a really intelligent woman then, and I just don't get worshiping a 2000-year-old Jewish day-laborer.

 

Actually, he gives us one short life to make an uninformed decision, then condemns us eternally if we guess wrong. The whole point of this crazy choice we're supposed to make is precisely because he overlooks nothing.

 

This is something that I just don't understand. Without a shred of evidence - (save a book from 2000 years ago full of fables) - there is no proof of the existence of Jesus, God, or even heaven. No one posting in this thread has ever met or seen any of it. Yet they are willing to base their entire lives on it.

 

Yes, honest incredulity in the face of wild unverifiable claims is clearly the worst thing anybody can do. Your god can supposedly overlook the worst atrocity, but just can't stomach the idea of somebody not believing that his "son" was a Jewish carpenter who lived thousands of years ago.

 

Even more bizarre is God doesnt stop event's like the Holocaust, 9/11, or the Katrina Hurricane.. things that killed god-fearing people. Yet he has time to listen to Mary-Joe's from Arkansas random prayers and answered them with miracles! (see: the "Anyones prayers answered?" thread.) It simply doesn't add up. Why does Mary-Joe from Arkanas prayers trump things like 9/11?

 

And apparently this means that anybody who sincerely arrives at any other conclusion clearly has a rotten heart and deserves to be punished. Forever. You can't get around this.

 

And I one of those people. I shall be "punished forever" because I refuse to believe in unverified supernatural events. I should just succumb and be a slave to dogma. Well I just can't do that. My intellect rejects that choice. I know there is a better answer out there. I don't want to spend an eternity with a God or dead family members.. Hell, I love them but I hardly can stomach family members even staying with me for a week!

[soccerrprp]

The rational side of me has a problem with a god that torments those who reject him with everlasting pain an suffering. Clearly a sadistic, cruel deity who places the bulk of the burden of proof on flawed human beings who often have little or no control over what circumstances they are placed in... but, I am comforted in knowing that if there is such a god, that even the so-called believers will be judged and their faith alone will not be enough (contrary to contemporary christian belief). How's that for love?!

[YellowShark]

The rational side of me has a problem with a god that torments those who reject him with everlasting pain an suffering. Clearly a sadistic, cruel deity who places the bulk of the burden of proof on flawed human beings who often have little or no control over what circumstances they are placed in... but, I am comforted in knowing that if there is such a god, that even the so-called believers will be judged and their faith alone will not be enough (contrary to contemporary christian belief). How's that for love?!

 

Yup. That's another gem. God is so petty that if you don't play by his rules he will make you sit in the corner with Satan. For eternity. Wow. Talk about having a temper tantrum! Seems God is pretty narcissistic. It's either his way or the highway. Follow me, or perish in Hell. I say screw that, cuz it sure doesn't sound like an all-loving, omnipotent being to me.

 

That's why if I am going to "believe," I need better evidence than words. I need to see some actions, I need more than "cuz the bible says so..."

[TheFinalWord]

I think you don't know what subjective means. The fact that it's personal, and only relates to you and is mind-dependent in every way pretty much rules out any other possibility.

 

Okay.

 

It seems at this point as though you're no longer taking this seriously.

 

haha I think both of us are being guarded in this sense. Unless you want to tell me what would convince you? Maybe we can discuss another time if you want.

 

No, I quite plainly mean not even hearing of Jesus, or hearing about him in such a way that would not be even remotely convincing, not to mention social pressures in places like Iran or China. Or, maybe for Muslims in places like Afghanistan who only know Christians as people who invade their country and drop bombs on them.

 

Well, I can tell you that if they have not heard of Jesus, they will not be judged on that merit. I sounds like you believe there is this certain formula that if it is not done exactly, the person is rejected by God. No, my friend, no. God is merciful. It seems you only look at one side of God's nature, His justice. Please consider what is equal to God's justice: His mercy. Try operating from that paradigm with the same intensity as you operate from the paradigm of His justice. You can't only look at half of the nature of God and build a case b/c God is more than just one sided.

 

Actually, he gives us one short life to make an uninformed decision, then condemns us eternally if we guess wrong. The whole point of this crazy choice we're supposed to make is precisely because he overlooks nothing.

 

Well each of us will be held accountable based on what we genuinely know.

 

Yes, honest incredulity in the face of wild unverifiable claims is clearly the worst thing anybody can do. Your god can supposedly overlook the worst atrocity, but just can't stomach the idea of somebody not believing that his "son" was a Jewish carpenter who lived thousands of years ago. This is why Christianity doesn't even make it off the ground as far as I'm concerned.

 

I understand.

 

I'm really sick of lame cop-outs like this.

 

Well, the entire doctrine of God's grace is a cop out. Christianity is a cop out. I make no refutation of that. God is graceful beyond human comprehension. I claim no special righteousness, I put my faith in Christ.

 

And apparently this means that anybody who sincerely arrives at any other conclusion clearly has a rotten heart and deserves to be punished. Forever. You can't get around this.

 

They will be held accountable by what they know in sincerity. That is what they'll be judged on. If someone has not heard of Christ, this is the standard:

 

Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship —and this is what I am going to proclaim to you. “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’ “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent."

 

 

God overlooked their ignorance. Will He then not overlook that ignorance if people do not hear his command to repent? I'll let you decide. But this is a biblical question.

 

 

Yet by using the Bible we can demonstrate that his judgement is arbitrary, egotistical, and completely removed from any kind of merit on the part of the judged. Deeds don't matter, nor do intentions. The only thing that matters is by which name we call god; the most superficial basis possible. And you're presenting this as the supreme height of justice. *sigh*

 

Ah, my friend but you are only looking at one side of God's nature. Let me show you the other

 

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions —it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

 

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him"

 

And loopholes are a sign of imperfection. It means that somebody found a way around something, or that the loophole was required to address some deficiency. It's certainly a strange hallmark of a perfect plan conceived by a perfect being.

 

That's one way to look at it. My parents have given me loopholes, because they love me. You've given me loopholes despite my imperfections or bad responses, b/c you enjoy dialoguing with me. What's the common denominator? Grace. Unmerited favor. Christianity itself is a giant loophole.

 

It does for a lot of people. The majority of Christians don't even read their own Bibles, or know much about it at all.

 

Definitely.

 

Enjoy your trip. A couple of days away from the internet sounds like a wonderful thing.

 

Thanks! I am on my mobile. I can't get away from technology. Thanks for the opportunity to talk. Peace.

[TheFinalWord]

Okay, neither of us are going to budge on this point. I've asked you at least 3 times to list what you think are the most compelling arguments, and it keeps coming back to this. Time to move on...

 

Okay.

 

Not what I'm saying at all, I'm going by the criteria laid out in the Bible, and it leaves a lot of people at a severe disadvantage, and is therefore unfair.

 

What do you think someone has to do to receive the atoning work of Christ. Is it conceivable that there could be any situation from which someone could not know anything about Christ and still receive His atoning work?

 

This is a boilerplate Christian response, and it's just silly. There is nothing even remotely just about it.

 

Okay, well you perceive this as a boiler plate response, I understand that.ll I am just saying this b/c there is not just one side to God's nature. We cannot only look at one side of things and make a doctrine out of it. If we only want to look at justice of God and not the mercy of God, we are only looking at half of the biblical data. I personally don't see how looking at both sides is an excuse for anything. It's taking the entire concept of God's nature into consideration. I think that's a fair approach, personally.

 

And I genuinely know of no compelling or even coherent reason to believe in gods. Social conditioning did not work on me, fear of punishment/hope for reward beyond the grave did not work either. Shonky philosophical arguments failed too. People quoting John 3:16 at me fell short.

 

I agree, none of those worked on me either. I can tell you what worked for me....

 

Try praying to God and asking Jesus to come into your heart. Speak your mind to Him about it. That's what I did. I did not even know what to say exactly. I did not have to change anything and then come to God. I simply came as I was. You can have doubts, no problem. I had doubts. I still do. God can handle those doubts. God has a insane level of mercy.

 

I couldn't make myself believe in what I find completely implausible and obviously false in many regards.

 

Tell me, where does that leave me?

 

It leaves you as a man that is following to the best of his ability his rational thought processes. I know exactly how you feel. I don't think you're purposely ignoring anything at all. I also don't think any argument I can offer would change your mind. But no man can change anything at the heart-level, that's why God had to send His son.

 

The fact you are unable to change your mind about God, is perfectly rational. God can change your mind, if you invite Him to. How? He will reveal Himself to you through His Spirit. His Spirit will witness to your spirit, if you allow Him too. God is very gentle. He will not blast your or overpower your will. You do not have to have 100% doubt removed to receive Christ. All it takes is a humble heart.

 

Here is how the bible says this will work...

 

"For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord

so as to instruct him?”

 

But we have the mind of Christ."

 

 

Christ taught before His death....

 

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.

 

The Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives."

 

 

The GOSPEL of JOHN - Full Movie Part 13/18 (HD) - YouTube

 

 

None of which alters the situation I'm talking about: Believe in Jesus or be damned for all eternity. No escape, forgiveness, no second chances, no informed decision. That's the side of the god of Abraham that matters, because that's the one that will, according to the Bible, decide our fates forever.

 

You're correct. Jesus is the only way to receive eternal life. Many who operate in ignorance will have that righteousness imputed on them. Many who operated in ignorance before the death of Christ had that righteousness imputed on them. Many others in the dispensation of Grace will receive it that do nothing for God outside of ask Christ into their heart. God's mercy and grace is beyond measure.

 

I will have to think more about this before I respond.

 

Sure! Well, the thing is God loved us, it's not b/c He needed a loop hole. It's b/c we did. And now all we have to do is receive it. It's a free gift, already paid for and waiting. We just have to accept it. You're a smart guy quickjoe. Thanks for conversing with me. And if you ever need God, He is just a prayer away.

[YellowShark]

Here is how the bible says this will work...

 

Er... hit the brakes. You are now quoting from and using as evidence a document from a time when they thought the world was flat and there was no electricity. So all it proves is that a whole bunch of people wrote a lot of stuff down a long time ago. It's testimony not evidence. It's impossible to verify the events, especially the supernatural ones.

 

You're correct. Jesus is the only way to receive eternal life.

 

Which brings us full circle to the OP. Why do you want to live for trillions of years TheFinalWord? It's a ridiculous thought. Eternity. A lifetime is a pretty long time let alone "eternity." Maybe you change your mind after a few billion years and don't want to spend eternity with Jesus in your new body on Earth after the rapture. Then what? Suicide?

[TheFinalWord]

Er... hit the brakes. You are now quoting from and using as evidence a document from a time when they thought the world was flat and there was no electricity. So all it proves is that a whole bunch of people wrote a lot of stuff down a long time ago. It's testimony not evidence. It's impossible to verify the events, especially the supernatural ones.

 

Hi YS,

 

haha you're a funny guy YS. I like your humor "hit the brakes" haha

 

Well, does my own life experience count? I am only sharing my personal experiences. You're right I'm giving my testimony. I experienced God's deliverance from drugs and He has brought me into a new life. When this happened to me, I said, "Okay, that worked, I'm curious to learn more"...and that's what I did. I went to the source from which the deliverance came: Jesus. His words are found in the bible. So that's why I quote the scriptures. I have nothing to offer anyone. God has everything to offer. I only testify from my own life And I can tell you since then, I am a completely new person and God continues to bless me beyond compare.

 

Which brings us full circle to the OP. Why do you want to live for trillions of years TheFinalWord? It's a ridiculous thought. Eternity. A lifetime is a pretty long time let alone "eternity." Maybe you change your mind after a few billion years and don't want to spend eternity with Jesus in your new body on Earth after the rapture. Then what? Suicide?

 

Well, I would say because I can't think of any reason why I wouldn't want too. Do I want to die right now? No. Why not. Because I love life. Do I want to die tomorrow? No, why. Because I assume I will love life just as much tomorrow. Keep adding days. Add a trillion, add 10^X power. For me the same logic applies. If I want to live today, there's no logical reason I would not want to live tomorrow. Tomorrow I can apply the same logic.

 

Also, I have no idea what heaven will be like. It's better than this life, and as much as I love this life I can only imagine how much I will love that one even more

 

How do we know time will be perceived the same way? God has existed from eternity past. He seems to be doing fine, perhaps we will have the same orientation towards time. Maybe time will not exist. So many possibilities. I think in answering this question we have to be careful not to impose our current experience on the experience of eternal life. It is something foreign to our minds. I can't conceive eternity past, it blows my mind. Yet, there was never a "time" when God was not. Time is finite, yet God existed before time. So there was a "time" when time did not exist, yet God existed. That is the kind of thing we can't comprehend or describe which is why I think folks are having a hard time giving you an exact answer. Maybe an astrophysicist could LOL I can't. Fun to think about though and good questions from your end. Here's a good one: Did it ever occur to you that nothing ever occurred to God

 

So, YS, why wouldn't you want to live forever? Thanks.

Edited August 15, 2012 by TheFinalWord

[YellowShark]

Well, does my own life experience count? I am only sharing my personal experiences. You're right I'm giving my testimony.

 

Ah no. You were explaining to quickjoe what the bible says about "the mind of Christ." Well the bible isn't evidence of how things work. It is testimony. It's no more evidence than the Lord of the Rings books are evidence that hobbits and orcs are real.

 

I experienced God's deliverance from drugs and He has brought me into a new life.

 

So God didn't stop 9/11 but he delivered you from drugs and gave you a new life huh? I think you need to take some ownership for delivering yourself from drugs and changing your life TheFinalWord.

 

Well, I would say because I can't think of any reason why I wouldn't want too. Do I want to die right now? No. Why not. Because I love life. Do I want to die tomorrow? No, why. Because I assume I will love life just as much tomorrow. Keep adding days. Add a trillion, add 10^X power. For me the same logic applies. If I want to live today, there's no logical reason I would not want to live tomorrow. Tomorrow I can apply the same logic.

 

The mere thought that you are gonna live for eternity with Jesus is kinda wacky dude. Seriously. It's just not something that can be verified or has ever been witnessed or recorded in human history.

 

Also, I have no idea what heaven will be like. It's better than this life, and as much as I love this life I can only imagine how much I will love that one even more

 

It's better than this life? What's the basis for that conclusion? Oh, ya... the bible says it's so. Is that an Orc over there?

 

How do we know time will be perceived the same way? God has existed from eternity past. He seems to be doing fine, perhaps we will have the same orientation towards time.

 

And there you go again. You don't know how time is perceived after you die. No one does. You don't really know when or where God exists let alone how he is doing. You've simply constructed this character in your imagination but have never seen or met the man. He's nothing more than your imaginary buddy, your invisible friend.

 

Maybe time will not exist. So many possibilities. I think in answering this question we have to be careful not to impose our current experience on the experience of eternal life. It is something foreign to our minds. I can't conceive eternity past, it blows my mind. Yet, there was never a "time" when God was not. Time is finite, yet God existed before time.

 

So you say.

 

So, YS, why wouldn't you want to live forever? Thanks.

 

Because I am not that greedy or narcissistic that I require to. I shall put my time in, do the best I can do, and go to sleep. You - like most people - fear death, so you need to construct an entire fairy tale about an eternal after-life.. and living in paradise with Jesus after you die. Well if that makes you feel better then all the power to ya.

Edited August 15, 2012 by YellowShark

[TheFinalWord]

Ah no. You were explaining to quickjoe what the bible says about "the mind of Christ." Well the bible isn't evidence of how things work. It is testimony. It's no more evidence than the Lord of the Rings books are evidence that hobbits and orcs are real.

 

Well you are free to reject that testimony.

 

So God didn't stop 9/11 but he delivered you from drugs and gave you a new life huh? I think you need to take some ownership for delivering yourself from drugs and changing your life TheFinalWord.

 

Did God stop His own son from dying? Hmmm...

 

About my life, you can say what you want. I know what happened.

 

The mere thought that you are gonna live for eternity with Jesus is kinda wacky dude. Seriously. It's just not something that can be verified or has ever been witnessed or recorded in human history.

 

I can understand that. The bible says spiritual things are foolish to the worldly. So maybe the bible is right there?

 

It's better than this life? What's the basis for that conclusion? Oh, ya... the bible says it's so. Is that an Orc over there?

 

Hey, come on. You asked the question. I answered. You don't approve of the answer so you pick on me? Not sure I understand what you asked for. Are you genuinely curious, or do you just want to laugh? You should start a thread about jokes if that's what you want. I can provide those too and since you already know what we think, the jokes may be something new to you, as opposed to our fairy tales

 

And there you go again. You don't know how time is perceived after you die. No one does. You don't really know when or where God exists let alone how he is doing. You've simply constructed this character in your imagination but have never seen or met the man. He's nothing more than your imaginary buddy, your invisible friend.

 

awww come on YS, do you also go around and tell kids there is no Santa? Just let me live in my ignorance.

 

Because I am not that greedy or narcissistic that I require to. I shall put my time in, do the best I can do, and go to sleep. You - like most people - fear death, so you need to construct an entire fairy tale about an eternal after-life.. and living in paradise with Jesus after you die. Well if that makes you feel better then all the power to ya.

 

Why do you ask questions if you already know all about me, my life, my greedy intentions, and the like? What's the point? Just to laugh. That, to me seems whacky and a waste of the little time you have left. Well if it makes you feel better more power to ya. To each their own, eh?

 

Is this thread an example of the best way to spend your time? I'm honored to get to share your few remaining years with you! If I thought like you I wouldn't waste 10 seconds on a "spirituality/religion" forum...though I'm glad to have you here to chat with. But time is a ticking...

 

PS: Lord of the Rings was written by JRR Tolkien, best friend of CS Lewis. It's loaded with Christian implications. See if you can spot them next time you watch. I love that trilogy! Hobbit coming soon!

 

PSS: No offense in this thread intended, I just like your humor and like to use a little sarcasm myself from time to time. Good talking to ya YS.

Edited August 15, 2012 by TheFinalWord

[YellowShark]

Well you are free to reject that testimony.

 

I reject it. Why? Because the supernatural parts are not backed by a shred of evidence. Sure some of the times and locations in the bible are factual, but the supernatural crap? Nope. Like I said seems God went absolutely nuts revealing himself everywhere and anywhere performing Earth-shattering miracles - like world-wide floods - 2000 years ago, then he went POOF! Gone. Makes no sense.

 

Did God stop His own son from dying? Hmmm...

 

Uh no. Because it wasn't really his son.

 

About my life, you can say what you want. I know what happened.

 

You conquered your addiction. God didn't. But if I use your logic then God made you a drug addict.

 

I can understand that. The bible says spiritual things are foolish to the worldly. So maybe the bible is right there?

 

The bible says all sorts of stuff. None of which is proof of anything, it is just words written by hundreds of different people over many many years. It is not proof of anything. Just like LOTR doesn't prove Middle Earth exists.

 

Hey, come on. You asked the question. I answered. You don't approve of the answer so you pick on me? Not sure I understand what you asked for. Are you genuinely curious, or do you just want to laugh? You should start a thread about jokes if that's what you want. I can provide those too and since you already know what we think, the jokes may be something new to you, as opposed to our fairy tales

 

Admit it. You don't really know if Heaven is better than now. You really don't. You've never been there, you don't know a single person who has went and come back. You've never seen a picture or video. So your belief of what heaven is is entirely in your imagination.

 

..awww come on YS, do you also go around and tell kids there is no Santa? Just let me live in my ignorance.

 

I am not malicious, but hate to break it to ya... God is Santa for adults.

 

Why do you ask questions if you already know all about me, my life, my greedy intentions, and the like? What's the point? Just to laugh. That, to me seems whacky and a waste of the little time you have left. Well if it makes you feel better more power to ya. To each their own, eh?

 

It is greedy and narcissistic to think that the entire universe - 100 billion galaxies - was created by God just for Christians. But think about it, there is a finite amount of things that can be done, so if you live "forever" you must repeat finite activities infinitely. Sounds like hell to me.

 

Is this thread an example of the best way to spend your time? I'm honored to get to share your few remaining years with you! If I thought like you I wouldn't waste 10 seconds on a "spirituality/religion" forum...though I'm glad to have you here to chat with. But time is a ticking...

 

I waste time here because I want mankind to evolve past 2000-year-old dogma. We can do better than sticking to stories from the bronze age.

 

PS: Lord of the Rings was written by JRR Tolkien, best friend of CS Lewis. It's loaded with Christian implications. See if you can spot them next time you watch. I love that trilogy! Hobbit coming soon!

 

PSS: No offense in this thread intended, I just like your humor and like to use a little sarcasm myself from time to time. Good talking to ya YS.

 

I am excited about "The Hobbit." Love LOTR. Amazing trilogy.. from the buzz I have read The Hobbit is as good as the first 3 movies. Can't wait!

[TheFinalWord]

I waste time here because I want mankind to evolve past 2000-year-old dogma. We can do better than sticking to stories from the bronze age.

 

And you're going to do that on a sub-forum, spirituality, on loveshack.org I'm the one with the imagination though Interesting strategy for spending your last few years... Hey at least my imagination is in my head for some time after I die...You act on your imagination right now "I am going to conquer Christianity on an internet forum" How do you measure your success? No way if I was an atheist I would embark on any endeavor like this (which in all honesty would seem like a pure waste of time if I was an atheist) without a method for gauging if I'm accomplishing my objective.

 

I am excited about "The Hobbit." Love LOTR. Amazing trilogy.. from the buzz I have read The Hobbit is as good as the first 3 movies. Can't wait!

 

Me too! We'll have to start a movie review thread on LS when it comes out!

 

Good chatting with ya friend.

 

I did all of that, quite sincerely, for a long time. I very much wanted it to be true. I do not remember exactly how long but it would have been no less than six months. I felt no connection, nothing but emptiness. I tried to tell myself that I believed it all, but deep down I knew that I did not, and no amount of willing self deception made any difference.

 

Due to my circumstances and my location, I am never far away from Christianity. So I cannot ever entirely stop thinking about it and move on. I'm here because every once in a while I need to voice my dissent.

 

I think it's monumentally sad that you credit god with "insane amounts of mercy" because some people have doubts in the face of zero evidence. That's just warped, and it comes back to that taint of self-denigration I mentioned before. It's betrayed by this notion that we're all somehow so horrible that god must be the most merciful, most patient, most loving being in the entire cosmos just to put up with us.

 

Without realising it (because I think you are fundamentally a genuinely good guy), you are advocating a worldview that has, at its core, utter contempt for humanity. And it honestly grieves me that you do.

 

I understand perhaps why you have gravitated towards this doctrine (and, to be honest, I may well have done the same in similar circumstances), given what you have mentioned of your past. But I think it's a mistake to project that on the rest of humanity just because you identify with it because of your perception of who you were. This, I think, is a fundamental anti-pattern of human thinking in general: we unnecessarily project our own experiences and views onto everybody else when we are less than mindful of the subjectivity of these experiences. There's a strong "because something worked for me, it ought to work for everybody else" message promoted by these exclusivist monotheistic religions, and unfortunately when taken to extremes it encourages the most vile intolerance, bigotry, and the dehumanisation of others who think differently.

 

Except it didn't happen at all like that. All this talk of "ask and ye shall receive" and "just open your heart to Jesus" was a boat that left me on the island. Who knows, maybe I wasn't doing it right.

 

Hey quickjoe,

 

I hear what you're saying. Thanks for your insights and sharing some of your experiences. I can tell you're a genuine person too. I try my hardest not to project my perceptions onto anyone, honestly. I take it to heart when Christ said to not judge. A lot of the things I say on here are mainly just my understanding of the scriptures and the personal experiences I have had in my life. I mean no offense. I can't pretend to know what you've experienced or what your current situation must be like. I will pray for you though, if that doesn't insult you. Good talking to you!

Edited August 15, 2012 by TheFinalWord

[YellowShark]

And you're going to do that on a sub-forum, spirituality, on loveshack.org

 

This is a subforum for spirituality.. not just Christianity. So I am the ying to your yang so to speak. Not here on any mission. I have better things to do. Just here for good debate.

 

I take it to heart when Christ said to not judge. A lot of the things I say on here are mainly just my understanding of the scriptures and the personal experiences I have had in my life. I mean no offense. I can't pretend to know what you've experienced or what your current situation must be like. I will pray for you though, if that doesn't insult you. Good talking to you!

 

Don't worry about offending me, I have broad shoulders. My back story is I grew up in a very religious home. But when I went to an amazing dinosaur museum as a child and held some dinosaur bones in my hand I realized the Earth is much older than 6000 years. It really is. So it was at that point a switch went off in my head that maybe there are better answers than the bible. That's just me.

[TheFinalWord]

This is a subforum for spirituality.. not just Christianity. So I am the ying to your yang so to speak. Not here on any mission. I have better things to do. Just here for good debate.

 

 

Don't worry about offending me, I have broad shoulders. My back story is I grew up in a very religious home. But when I went to an amazing dinosaur museum as a child and held some dinosaur bones in my hand I realized the Earth is much older than 6000 years. It really is. So it was at that point a switch went off in my head that maybe there are better answers than the bible. That's just me.

 

It's all good friend. I was just teasing a bit I like having you here. You ask good questions actually. Yeah, I can feel you with the dinosaur stuff. I don't buy the 6000 year age of the earth, for scientific and biblical reasons. The 6k part was developed by Bishop James Ussher in the 1600s. There are clear gaps in the genesis genealogies IMHO. Adding up the years has caused a lot of long-term consequences.

[quankanne]

QJ ~ just scrolled through an old post and realized I'd missed your question about faith and relationships, and what they had to do with each other. I think i used love as the premise for my theory ...

 

short answer is, faith is that relationship you have with God/Creator, and while intellectually, it doesn't make sense, it's based on a leap of faith (hah! No pun meant) and trust in the unknown. Some folks are comfortable not making that leap, while others are. And it's all good, because we grow from the dialogue that ensues.

 

This is where I evolve and you don't sadly. I don't need the supernatural in my Universe. It's just great without it. In fact it is better for me because I don't stop learning then. I don't throw up my hands and say "God moves in mysterious ways," or "It's God's will." I know there is a more rational explanation out there than a supreme being doing everything. That's what I like about science, there is no good or evil, no miracles or 2000-year-old promises ... just truths which I can verify. but i don't take my brain out to ignore the wonders of science because of my spirituality; if anything, it helps me to more respectful and in awe of what transpires through these things. I also believe that while God is the author of everything, that doesn't negate my own role in seeing things through.

 

which leads to the question of why bad things happen, and why God doesn't correct "bad things," like natural disaster. It'd be great if he were proactive, but then what would our response be? Do we grow as people when we're encouraged to be selfish because nothing's tested us, or do we act out in love and responsibility and all those other good things when said disasters strike? I can personally testify to the wellspring of generosity and caring that resulted when we had Katrina and Rita evacuees hit our area, and while I'd like to think that Texans are generous folks, it took disasters like those to illustrate the depth of that generosity. Because adversity brings out the best in people, which causes growth in character, IMO.

now, the important stuff: WTH are they thinking of splitting The Hobbit into three damn movies when the world ends Dec. 22?

[quankanne]

literary license. Especially if you consider the Bible a book about spiritual journey, and not a hard-evidence tome on history or geology or geology ... things were placed there to give people a frame of reference they could understand what was going on at the time the narrator was narrating.

[TheFinalWord]

So what is your personal interpretation of the periods described in genesis? Do you believe it was six 7 actual days, or 7 long periods of time?

 

Yeah, the day-age interpretation makes the most sense to me.

 

Dr. Walter Kaiser, gives a good overview of how to interpret these passages. He's a Hebrew and Greek scholar; speaks like 9 languages and wrote his college notes in Hittite lol. Kaiser has worked with original manuscript interpretations and writing lexicons. For me his interpretation of "yom" (Hebrew word for day) makes the most sense.

 

 

[YellowShark]

now, the important stuff: WTH are they thinking of splitting The Hobbit into three damn movies when the world ends Dec. 22?

 

I am guessing you're referring to the Mayan calendar stuff. Well rest assured quankanne the world will not end on Dec 21. I promise you. I am absolutely sure on this. We'll all be OK and able to enjoy many more Hobbit movies.

 

P.S. the Mayan calendar ends on that date because it just does. Just like the calendar on your wall ends on Dec 31st 2012. And that doesn't mean the Earth will end on Dec 31 2012 either.

[M30USA]

TFW,

 

What do you make of the fact that Genesis says, "And there was evening and there was morning--a first day." Then the next day says, "And there was evening and there was morning--a second day." And so on. This suggests literal days. Any time the Bible repeats a phrase over and over it's usually for a significant reason.

 

Many people argue that it would have been impossible for there to be evening and morning since the sun (stars) weren't created until the fourth day. But it's important to realize that external light source--at least according to the Bible--is not a necessity. I wrote in another post that in the New Jerusalem there won't be day or night because, it says, God will be there and he is their light.