Is marriage mostly a failed institution?

[Robert Z]

Einstein's theory of special relativity predicts that the mass of your ejaculate approaches infinity as its velocity approaches the speed of light.

 

Just thought you needed to be warned.

 

Uh oh! Well, there is no doubt I have entered another universe. Or maybe I died and went to heaven...

 

No wait, not true because Heaven is in Nevada! And I'm not in Nevada, damnit!!!

[Radu]

That sort of thinking is precisely why I nearly allowed my marraige to destroy me. I refused to give up no matter how depressed and unhappy I was, and no matter hopeless it became. After a time I lost all perspective and entered a death spiral from which I nearly didn't escape. I mostly blame my religious upbringing and dysfunctional family for that. If I hadn't been so brainwashed with ideas of commitment and honor, I never would have wasted half of my life.

 

You did what you thought was best. And you never gave up untill the end.

It may sound weird to you now, but you can take solace in that.

 

There are women out there who went through the exact same ****.

It's not a gender thing, it's a mentality thing.

 

In your case, it was better to divorce, but you did your best to make it work.

Incidently this is why i'm on this forum, to better recognize dysfunctional behaviour and to rearrange my boundaries.

I can do it for me, i can't do it for her ... that's her responsability.

[xxoo]

Love it!

 

I was married to a beautiful, elegant woman for 12+ years. Not perfect, but I was deeply in love with her. But, fate had other plans and illness took her too soon.

 

Anyway, today's society, stressors are the main culprit for the deterioration of the institution in my mind. Way too many unreasonable and dangerous expectations on both sexes...

 

OFF TOPIC: Love your avatar, XXOO! Bugs and Gossamer!

 

My sincerest condolences on the loss of your wife, soccerrprp.

 

I agree with you about unreasonable expectations, but I also believe that expectations are misplaced--too low in some areas, too high others. Priorities are all screwed up, imo.

 

I have a soft spot for Gossamer

[xxoo]

Having kids does force the couple to basically take a lot of energy away from each other, it's unavoidable, and any existing problems which are unattended to, combined with various crises that arise over the years, can just result in a couple of lost souls finding themselves in a marriage together and really feeling like they don't know each other any longer.

 

I agree, it is extremely important to find ways to stay connected after children enter the picture.

 

It highlights one the ways I think priorities are screwed up. We can't have and do it ALL: big careers, perfect home, highly scheduled kids, personal mental and physical health, great marriage, etc. Something's got to give! Our marriage and parenting is more 1970s than 2010s, lol. We're happily moving along in the slow lane, but our kids are happy (even if they don't play 5 sports and 5 instruments in 5 languages) and our marriage is strong.

[RiverRunning]

I've been with my s/o for 4 years. I'd say things were RELATIVELY smooth-sailing for us for the first year or so. After that, the 'love buzz' wore off for us. We've had a lot of hardship. He did some very cruel things to me.

 

I only know of a few happy marriages past the 5 or 10 year mark. Their two big secrets? One, they know how to communicate a problem before it blows up. My mom was always the type to have a big blow-up fight with my dad, never telling him what was wrong, and she would storm off to her bedroom and be angry at him for several hours, if not a few days. The second secret to happiness?

 

They find a way to spend time together, and they put in effort to try new things together. I think a lot of the resentment, anger and disappointment that comes out of broken marriages boils down to boredom. Sometimes, that extends out to thinking that the grass is greener on the other side. She's going to dump you, meet a new guy, and unlike you, he's going to be wild, crazy and exciting! Then she finds out that after that initial first-year burst, he's boring too.

 

We try to keep novelty going in our relationship. We go to community events, see movies together, go to new restaurants, etc. Something new that we can bond over. It helps.

 

I like having one long-term, life partner to go through the years with. We've had MAJOR problems that we were able to fix. Serial monogamy just doesn't sound that great to me.

 

There are points at which partners need to just leave their marriages - I can't say exactly where that point is.

 

I couldn't imagine marrying someone who wouldn't bother trying to improve in some realm or another for the sake of the marriage. I had a lazy ex-partner who expected me to do and be everything for him, and obviously that didn't work. You have to put in work to have a happy marriage. I fully realize, even then, though, that your partner has to do the same.

 

Kids can be a problem in marriages too. I've known far too many people who are immature, have no experience with kids at all, etc., choosing to have children. They're so naive they don't even see it coming (FSIL comes to mind on this one). They see babies more like designer items to show off in multitudes of pictures on Facebook rather than an addition to be loved, protected and provided for in the real world.

 

We've had many discussions about kids: I know kids sidetrack you from other things in life. It's a big responsibility (I've helped raise god knows how many people's kids over the years...some of these 'parents' never see their kids between work and school). And it will start to cause some distance in your marriage when somebody else needs so much attention.

 

It's a big reason why so many empty nesters wind up getting divorced. For 18 or 20 or however many years, your marriage becomes more and more about your children. Then they leave...and you find out you've been living with a stranger for 20 years. You don't even know each other anymore.

 

So, finding a way to bridge that distance even with a child is important.

[threebyfate]

Of course not. As I indicated in the first post, every married person I know well is unhappy. I do know one guy who still has a good sex life and isn't actually miserable, but happy...? I don't think so. Looking back on my parents, I know they weren't happy. Hell, eventually I realized that my dad didn't even really want kids. He was just trapped. In fact, I knew this deep down even as a child.

Is everyone unhappy or are you projecting your unhappiness?

 

I come from an environment surrounded by happy marriages, including my own. Sure, there are times where people get annoyed with their spouses but the underlying theme is love, acceptance and the ability to give and receive.

[Robert Z]

Is everyone unhappy or are you projecting your unhappiness?

 

I come from an environment surrounded by happy marriages, including my own. Sure, there are times where people get annoyed with their spouses but the underlying theme is love, acceptance and the ability to give and receive.

 

I guess you are a statistical anomaly since half of the marriages around you should fail. Or, more likely, maybe you are the one with the perception problem.

 

I have listened to the complaining and misery for years. When close friends and relatives are miserable, they usually want to talk about it. As I have stated before, even my sister is now in a sexless marriage. And her and her husband were as much in love as anyone I've ever known.

Edited August 18, 2012 by Robert Z

[Radagast]

In no way does that imply that they would be happier if they had never left or went back. If this was generally true, more divorced couples would remarry. And that is extremely rare. So that isn't a statistic, it is what they would like to believe. Statistically it means nothing unless they actually remarry and live happily ever after.

 

They can't remarry, because their former spouses are in the 60% who run screaming at the thought of the marriage they gladly left.

 

Often in a divorce, one person wants it more than the other, but it only needs one person wanting out for the marriage to be ended. So the 40% are the dumpees who wish their spouse hadn't divorced them, not the spouses who did the dumping!

[Robert Z]

They can't remarry, because their former spouses are in the 60% who run screaming at the thought of the marriage they gladly left.

 

Often in a divorce, one person wants it more than the other, but it only needs one person wanting out for the marriage to be ended. So the 40% are the dumpees who wish their spouse hadn't divorced them, not the spouses who did the dumping!

 

Therefore, they were in fact 100% failed marriages.

[woinlove]

I guess you are a statistical anomaly since half of the marriages around you should fail. Or, more likely, maybe you are the one with the perception problem.

 

I have listened to the complaining and misery for years. When close friends and relatives are miserable, they usually want to talk about it. As I have stated before, even my sister is now in a sexless marriage. And her and her husband were as much in love as anyone I've ever known.

 

Maybe, maybe not. It depends who you surround yourself with. The divorce rate in US is only about 20% for those who have a college education and first married at age 25 or older. This describes me and most of my friends and many of the people I work with. I'm also attracted to people who are happy with themselves, and being happy with oneself has a very large correlation with being happily married. So, like tbf, I also see a lot of long, happy marriages. Not everyone interacts with the statistical average. Some people will be surrounded by people with an even larger divorce rate than 50%.

[Robert Z]

Studies find on average married people are more happy, but to some extent this is because happy people are more likely to get married and more likely to stay married.

 

Of course about half of the married people sampled will end up divorced.

 

Many people are just perpetually unhappy. And there are people who are inexplicably happier than most other people. I saw one documentary that focused on twin sisters who are virtually in a constant giggle. The point being that there appears to be a genetic component to happiness. Also, some people are better suited for living together than are others. NASA spends a lot of money to figure out the dynamics of this as it will be important on long space missions. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that 50-70% of the population are simply not well suited for a lifetime commitment with anyone.

[KathyM]

Therefore, they were in fact 100% failed marriages.

Well, duh . They are divorced, therefore, their marriage has failed. But it isn't the institution itself that is the problem, it is society's attitude that has changed to create the high divorce rate. We live in a throw-away society, that is geared towards a me-first attitude and instant gratification. Nowdays, if you don't get along with your spouse, you dump them and get another, rather than trying hard to work out your problems within the marriage. And if you find yourself unhappy for a time, the solution is to dump the spouse and go running after happiness elsewhere, only to find that the same types of problems often creep up in subsequent relationships, and you are no better off the next time around. The divorce rate for second marriages is much higher (75%) than for first marriages. The confines of marriage is not the reason it is failing, it is because of the throw-away mindset that society has adopted.

[Robert Z]

Maybe, maybe not. It depends who you surround yourself with. The divorce rate in US is only about 20% for those who have a college education and first married at age 25 or older. This describes me and most of my friends and many of the people I work with. I'm also attracted to people who are happy with themselves, and being happy with oneself has a very large correlation with being happily married. So, like tbf, I also see a lot of long, happy marriages. Not everyone interacts with the statistical average. Some people will be surrounded by people with an even larger divorce rate than 50%.

 

Couples not doing well don't spend time with other happy couples. Who wants to spend time with an unhappy couple? That one sort of falls out of the mix if your look to social settings. When we were happy, we hung out with other happy couples.

 

Families definitely bring the nature/nurture aspect of healthy relationships into the mix. I would imagine that the offspring of a strong and healthy family family tend to produce more happy and healthy families, than do those from dysfunctional families like mine. But I don't see how this would play into professional settings where many personal relationships are made. That is more a roll of the dice.

[Moanin]

I would bet that less than 10% of couples are truly happy and still married, after a decade.

 

When you think of both people in a marriage being equally happy, I think 10% or less sounds reasonable. Even the people on here who are saying how happy they are after so many years are just one of the two people in a marriage. I'm not saying they aren't being truthful, I'm just saying that we will really never know for certain how their spouses are secretly feeling.

[Robert Z]

My ex and I were both college grads who married after age 25, btw.

[KathyM]

When you think of both people in a marriage being equally happy, I think 10% or less sounds reasonable. Even the people on here who are saying how happy they are after so many years are just one of the two people in a marriage. I'm not saying they aren't being truthful, I'm just saying that we will really never know for certain how their spouses are secretly feeling.

Well, in my case, considering the fact that my husband told me just last night how happy he was to have me, and how happy he is that he will have me for the rest of his life, I'd say that's a pretty good indication that he is happy.

[karnak]

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that 50-70% of the population are simply not well suited for a lifetime commitment with anyone.

 

I don't know about the exact numbers. But I firmly believe that some people (men and women) are not made for long-lasting relationships.

Maybe it's nothing to do with upbringing or experiences and all to do with the way their brains are wired.

 

The same wat that some people NEVER cheat and others have really no problem in doing it.

[M30USA]

I don't know about the exact numbers. But I firmly believe that some people (men and women) are not made for long-lasting relationships.

Maybe it's nothing to do with upbringing or experiences and all to do with the way their brains are wired.

 

The same wat that some people NEVER cheat and others have really no problem in doing it.

 

Pretty fair statement. I think my STBXW, just like her mom, can only stay succesfully married to someone who is pretty much her slave. You should see the way my STBXW's mom bosses aruond her husband. He doesn't even respond anymore--just gets up and executes every one of her orders. Kind of sad. It's even more sad that my wife saw this modelled and expected me to do the same. She must be thinking, "What's the matter with you!? Why can't you just be a good husband and let me totally rule over you?" Sounds irrational, but people's views in life are based on their experiences and models, rather than rational evaluation.

[Robert Z]

Well, duh . They are divorced, therefore, their marriage has failed. But it isn't the institution itself that is the problem, it is society's attitude that has changed to create the high divorce rate. We live in a throw-away society, that is geared towards a me-first attitude and instant gratification. Nowdays, if you don't get along with your spouse, you dump them and get another, rather than trying hard to work out your problems within the marriage. And if you find yourself unhappy for a time, the solution is to dump the spouse and go running after happiness elsewhere, only to find that the same types of problems often creep up in subsequent relationships, and you are no better off the next time around. The divorce rate for second marriages is much higher (75%) than for first marriages. The confines of marriage is not the reason it is failing, it is because of the throw-away mindset that society has adopted.

 

Where is the evidence for this argument? Maybe people are just unhappy and finally are free to act on that without the fear that once existed. It was all but forced on people to stay married in years past. And you could go to jail for cheating. Perhaps the difference is not the throw-away attitude but rather the freedom to escape. People are not held in bondage anymore even if they are miserable. That marriage doesn't work a second time only supports the basic argument that marriage just doesn't work for some or most people.

[Robert Z]

Well, duh . They are divorced, therefore, their marriage has failed.

 

You attempted to argue that many people would be happier if they remarried their former spouse - that the divorce was a mistake. You neglected to consider that the other spouse wouldn't have them. This negates your original point. You can't logically argue that they would be happy if they were with someone who doesn't want them.

[karnak]

Where is the evidence for this argument? Maybe people are just unhappy and finally are free to act on that without the fear that once existed. It was all but forced on people to stay married in years past. And you could go to jail for cheating. Perhaps the difference is not the throw-away attitude but rather the freedom to escape. People are not held in bondage anymore even if they are miserable. That marriage doesn't work a second time only supports the basic argument that marriage just doesn't work for some or most people.

 

Yep. The proof is that some people marry a second time (to a different partner) and stay married for the remainder of their days, claiming that they finally found happiness.

 

Others can marry 3 or 4 times and still cheat on their partners, claim they're unhappy, etc, etc.

 

As time passes and the more I see things, the more I value the info contained in the books of Michelle Langley.

[KathyM]

Yep. The proof is that some people marry a second time (to a different partner) and stay married for the remainder of their days, claiming that they finally found happiness.

 

Others can marry 3 or 4 times and still cheat on their partners, claim they're unhappy, etc, etc.

 

As time passes and the more I see things, the more I value the info contained in the books of Michelle Langley.

Actually, second marriages have a high failure rate. For first marriages, the rate is 50%, for second marriages, it is 75%, for third marriages, it is 85%.

[frozensprouts]

seems like a lot of marriages/divorces happen because there is this twisted view of "love" that is shoved down our throats by the mass media...

 

we are led to believe that unless we are still in the "fireworks" stage of limmerance, then there is no "love"...at the first sign of trouble or the shift from limmerance to lasting, permanent love which takes effort to nurture and build, too many spouses run for the hills, then spend the rest of their lives looking to " find their other half"...

 

our ( western) society places way too much value on limmerance and not on love...

 

one of the best examples of true love in a married couple i have seen( aside of my own parents, married over 50 years and still happy together) is in an movie from the 80's called "when the wind blows" ( it's a very depressing movie, but does give an good take on true, mature love)

 

also, some people just don't seem to be cut out to be married ( this has nothing to do with monogamy...there are "open" marriages where both spouses are very happy)...

 

( BTW...just had our 15th anniversary...had a great time- took our kids camping on an island in the north Atlantic...didn't see any puffins though- too foggy to see much of anything-lol- not what I was hoping for for the trip, but a situation is what you make of it, and if you want to have fun and be happy, you can find a way )

[KathyM]

Where is the evidence for this argument? Maybe people are just unhappy and finally are free to act on that without the fear that once existed. It was all but forced on people to stay married in years past. And you could go to jail for cheating. Perhaps the difference is not the throw-away attitude but rather the freedom to escape. People are not held in bondage anymore even if they are miserable. That marriage doesn't work a second time only supports the basic argument that marriage just doesn't work for some or most people.

The article I read that showed 40% of all couples who divorced wished that they had stayed together could be accessed at www.smartmarriages.com but I can no longer retrieve the article. Here is a similar article showing a large percentage of couples who wished they had stayed married: http://www.marriageandfamilies.byu.edu/issues/2003/January/divorce.aspx

 

It also shows that 85% of couples who reported being unhappy in their marriage showed significant improvement in their marriage five years later

[quankanne]

donald trump also has ugly hair, but who the hell cares?

 

back on topic: I hate the word "happy," because it puts unrealistic expectations on a relationship ~ going back to the one poster who pointed out that unhappy people marry, thinking they're gonna find the pot of gold because of something the other person does, and then realize it's not so. We shouldn't strive for "happy," it's just a positive fruit of a stable, healthy relationship. It's situational, though, and people need to understand that. A relationship is a living, breathing thing, and must be fed in order to grow ... it's subject to highs and lows, and how we handle them is reflected in the status of said relationship. Not always happy, not always strife-ridden, but somewhere in between ...

 

Actually, second marriages have a high failure rate. For first marriages, the rate is 50%, for second marriages, it is 75%, for third marriages, it is 85%. LOL ~ told my husband the reason I was his third time lucky was because I was a Texas girl, just like his mama!