Techniques for Picking Up Girls Seems Counterproductive

[verhrzn]

Reading advice columns is kind of a hobby of mine, and over the last year I've been reading advice columns geared more towards men, just out of curiosity about how the "other side" lives. These columns are things like Dr. Nerdlove, Doc Love, and a smattering of PUA sites.

 

Most of the advice given by these guy-centric columns include a lot of emotional manipulation. This isn't necessarily surprising, since dating is a social dance, and wanting your partner to have high social intelligence is pretty common.

 

What surprises me is the type of emotional manipulation. A common thread I see among all of the To-Guys advice is the idea that you can't show your hand emotionally. Doc Love says to never tell the girl directly how you feel, show your love through "actions" and keep her guessing. Don't call her, see her only semi-regularly, text sparingly. PUA takes this even a step further; "neg" her, make fun of her, make it clear you are superior to her.

 

Even Dr. NL, who I am a big fan of, has some smatterings of this type of advice.

 

What strikes me, reading all of this, is that this sort of behavior would majorly turn me off a guy. I go absolutely out of my mind with insecurity and despair when I have to pursue a guy. I don't fall in love... I fall in resentment and bitterness.

 

And yet the columns all claim that women love this stuff, no matter what they may claim.

 

So here's my question to the boards: ladies, do these tactics work on/for you, and I'm just kind of a freak-girl? Guys, have these techniques worked or not worked for you?

[fortyninethousand322]

I've had more luck when ignoring a girl I like or being coarse with her. Of course, my problem has always been that it's an act, and an act that I can't keep up for very long. In short: I care too much for the advice offered by male dating experts to work.

[pteromom]

No. There is NOTHING more annoying than someone trying to be mysterious, or using some "tactic" to win or keep me.

 

Just be you. Be open, honest, and vulnerable. Show me all of yourself. Learn about me. We will either be compatible or not. If so, yay for us. If no, why waste both of our time on something that will ultimately end anyway?

[ptp]

Reading advice columns is kind of a hobby of mine, and over the last year I've been reading advice columns geared more towards men, just out of curiosity about how the "other side" lives. These columns are things like Dr. Nerdlove, Doc Love, and a smattering of PUA sites.

 

Most of the advice given by these guy-centric columns include a lot of emotional manipulation. This isn't necessarily surprising, since dating is a social dance, and wanting your partner to have high social intelligence is pretty common.

 

What surprises me is the type of emotional manipulation. A common thread I see among all of the To-Guys advice is the idea that you can't show your hand emotionally. Doc Love says to never tell the girl directly how you feel, show your love through "actions" and keep her guessing. Don't call her, see her only semi-regularly, text sparingly. PUA takes this even a step further; "neg" her, make fun of her, make it clear you are superior to her.

 

Even Dr. NL, who I am a big fan of, has some smatterings of this type of advice.

 

What strikes me, reading all of this, is that this sort of behavior would majorly turn me off a guy. I go absolutely out of my mind with insecurity and despair when I have to pursue a guy. I don't fall in love... I fall in resentment and bitterness.

 

And yet the columns all claim that women love this stuff, no matter what they may claim.

 

So here's my question to the boards: ladies, do these tactics work on/for you, and I'm just kind of a freak-girl? Guys, have these techniques worked or not worked for you?

 

Most of the emotional manipulation is manipulating your own emotions so you can project confidence and so you can be comfortable and talk to a strange attractive woman without sounding like a bumbling idiot. Don't believe romantic comedies most guys don't know the perfectly funny, witty things to say when they approach a random woman.

 

Also, if being a "challenge" didn't work it wouldn't be mentioned so often. When I have been honest and open and told a girl how much I liked her, it has only pushed her away.

 

When I have been more subtle, more reserved with my enthusiasm it has had the opposite affect. The interesting question is why women are that way? Strangely, it isn't enough to say "I think you are very pretty and I want to date you".

Edited August 24, 2012 by ptp

[somedude81]

Ha, PU has never worked for me.

 

I've never figured out how to get the first hook. Supposedly after that, is when all of the game playing takes place.

[henderson14]

Only a complete loser would read stuff like that, get excited, and try it.

[monkey00]

Only naive inexperienced guys would fall for advice like this. I'd say if anything it was written up by some random person just to get hits to their website, a lot of it is poorly written advice. Some of it might be good, but most of it is bad.

 

Playing the mysterious, aloof guy doesn't really work, unless the girl the guy is pursuing either has issues, emotional baggage, or is a teenager who thrives on stuff similar to the 'twilight' series.

 

But it's true though, once you meet the right person being yourself just works naturally. Everything you thought you knew about game and playing hard to get goes out the window. The only women I know who play hard to get/play games are either: not interested, or highly insecure.

[pteromom]

Strangely, it isn't enough to say "I think you are very pretty and I want to date you".

 

Well, yeh... because this is creepy. I would be like Uhhhh... you don't even know me, but you want to date me?!? I guess it doesn't matter if I am a crazy drug addict who cheats on every boyfriend I have ever had as long as I'm "pretty".

 

There's a way to be flattering and honest without making her feel uncomfortable.

 

First, you talk to her. When you know enough that you feel a spark between the two of you (not just that you think she's "hot"), you ask her out. Keep it simple, light, and easy. Smile. Look in her eyes when she talks (look, not stare.)

 

You can be honest and open without drooling all over her or becoming obsessive.

[ptp]

Well, yeh... because this is creepy. I would be like Uhhhh... you don't even know me, but you want to date me?!? I guess it doesn't matter if I am a crazy drug addict who cheats on every boyfriend I have ever had as long as I'm "pretty".

 

There's a way to be flattering and honest without making her feel uncomfortable.

 

First, you talk to her. When you know enough that you feel a spark between the two of you (not just that you think she's "hot"), you ask her out. Keep it simple, light, and easy. Smile. Look in her eyes when she talks (look, not stare.)

 

You can be honest and open without drooling all over her or becoming obsessive.

 

So let me get this straight, I can't ask a girl for a date when I first meet her, because I don't "know" her.

 

Yet after 5 minutes of small talk, I now "know" enough about her to ask her out? What do I know about her in 5 minutes?

 

The whole purpose of dating someone is to getting to know someone.

[MrCastle]

It's written all over the place because it works. Whether the women here (or anywhere) want to believe it or admit to it is irrelevent.

 

Being vulnerable and completely open emotionally will get you killed.

 

Of course, long term, we want someone we can totally be ourselves around and not have to play any games. Those are the rare people that come along every blue moon. The kind you hold onto.

 

If you want to maximize your dating success (numbers wise, not in terms of quality, which is subjective) you have to play by the dating rules.

 

There are more girls out there that respond positively to these tactics, than not.

[verhrzn]

It's written all over the place because it works. Whether the women here (or anywhere) want to believe it or admit to it is irrelevent.

 

Being vulnerable and completely open emotionally will get you killed.

 

Of course, long term, we want someone we can totally be ourselves around and not have to play any games. Those are the rare people that come along every blue moon. The kind you hold onto.

 

If you want to maximize your dating success (numbers wise, not in terms of quality, which is subjective) you have to play by the dating rules.

 

There are more girls out there that respond positively to these tactics, than not.

 

Guess I'm just a freak! Just very strange why it doesn't work on me, and in fact has the opposite effect.

[8mia8]

What surprises me is the type of emotional manipulation. A common thread I see among all of the To-Guys advice is the idea that you can't show your hand emotionally. Doc Love says to never tell the girl directly how you feel, show your love through "actions" and keep her guessing. Don't call her, see her only semi-regularly, text sparingly. PUA takes this even a step further; "neg" her, make fun of her, make it clear you are superior to her.

Only thing I'd agree with are, show love through actions (as well as words but I'm confused, how can you love someone you don't know?), seeing semi-regularly, and text sparingly. I guess I'm a bit different than most in that I want my own space and don't want contact as much as many people on this board. Average 1 text a day and meeting 2x a week is about it; no more unless it's progressed to a serious level. The other stuff would be a kick to the curb.

[fishtaco]

I have very little experience reading PUA stuff. But I agree that for men, dating has to do with a lot of emotional manipulation... to control themselves, to get them to do something they normally wouldn't do. Yes, there are some manipulation of women as well, but that's called dating. As if women don't manipulate men. That's the game.

 

Generally, not always being available and ready to go is good advice. There are always exceptions. But being dating is a number game, you want to, if you can, craft your game based on what is the most common.

 

For example, if you are 450lbs, some women will love you anyway. But if you are average, then a larger section of the female population will be interested in you. Hence it's better to be average, because you appeal to more women.

 

Same can be applied when it comes to these dating street knowledge. Do what appeals to the most number of women. If holding back appeals to the most number of women, then just like not being 450lbs, you should do it.

 

That neg or whatever, I assume that's putting women down, or to get some negative reaction. That works on I believe smaller section of the women. Ideally, you should be able to identify what works on who, and only apply the right game.

 

I don't know if this counts as neg or whatever. But sometimes, if my target is a bitchy woman, I'd ignore her. I'd acknowledge her, barely, then completely ignore her while I have fun with other people, preferably other women. If I can establish that other women are interested in me, and that I have high social status (big fish in the small pond) right in front of her, then I have a higher chance of getting this bitchy woman's attention, than if I just walk up to chat her up like every other schmuck.

 

It worked on Material Girl, the one I was seeing right before I got into a relationship with my GF. But, I didn't do this with my GF, because I didn't need to.

 

So I think it's good to have tricks up your sleeves, but you have to select what to use and when. You can't just blindly apply a technique, no matter how good it is.

[pteromom]

So let me get this straight, I can't ask a girl for a date when I first meet her, because I don't "know" her.

 

Yet after 5 minutes of small talk, I now "know" enough about her to ask her out? What do I know about her in 5 minutes?

 

The whole purpose of dating someone is to getting to know someone.

 

Yes, but when you ask her out, she needs to feel that it is because there is something about her that made you interested. Not that you ask all the girls out, are only asking because you are desperate, or are only asking because she has a nice rack.

 

After 5 minutes of small talk, you don't know her. But you both know if there is an initial chemistry between you or not.

[ptp]

Yes, but when you ask her out, she needs to feel that it is because there is something about her that made you interested. Not that you ask all the girls out, are only asking because you are desperate, or are only asking because she has a nice rack.

 

After 5 minutes of small talk, you don't know her. But you both know if there is an initial chemistry between you or not.

 

And there you have the reason why guys use PUA material and why PUA material works.

 

A guy who is honest and straight forward with his intentions, no matter how noble, is denied a date and labeled a "creep".

 

Meanwhile, the PUA material is teaching a guy how to fill those 5 minutes, while generating this supposed "chemistry", before asking her out.

 

I guess generating "chemistry" isn't unique to a certain woman since, the same routines work over and over again.

[EasyHeart]

There's a big difference in picking up a girl and meeting a girlfriend.

[fortyninethousand322]

There's a big difference in picking up a girl and meeting a girlfriend.

 

Not always.

[Weezy1973]

What surprises me is the type of emotional manipulation. A common thread I see among all of the To-Guys advice is the idea that you can't show your hand emotionally. Doc Love says to never tell the girl directly how you feel, show your love through "actions" and keep her guessing. Don't call her, see her only semi-regularly, text sparingly. PUA takes this even a step further; "neg" her, make fun of her, make it clear you are superior to her.

 

 

So here's my question to the boards: ladies, do these tactics work on/for you, and I'm just kind of a freak-girl? Guys, have these techniques worked or not worked for you?

 

I have never tried these techniques and I have never had a problem dating. That being said, I am very relationship oriented. I think a disconnect happens because the majority of women are solely looking for relationships whereas the majority of men, although ultimately looking for a relationship, are more than happy to just have casual sex in the meantime.

 

Most women need some time to see what a guy is all about. They want to know whether he is someone worth investing in or not. If a guy comes on too strong because he thinks she physically attractive, she will probably get turned off. Therefore something like this: "never tell the girl directly how you feel, show your love through 'actions' and keep her guessing" might actually be a benefit to both the man and the women. "Negging" however seems like it would only "work" on women that were extremely insecure. And the types of guys that would use that "technique" would probably only be looking for sex.

[Kofybean]

Reading advice columns is kind of a hobby of mine, and over the last year I've been reading advice columns geared more towards men, just out of curiosity about how the "other side" lives. These columns are things like Dr. Nerdlove, Doc Love, and a smattering of PUA sites.

 

I don't know many men who read those things. PUA sites, or dating advice columns are on par with Infomercials 2 o'clock in the morning, as far as relevance. At least to me, and the men I know.

 

 

What surprises me is the type of emotional manipulation. A common thread I see among all of the To-Guys advice is the idea that you can't show your hand emotionally. Doc Love says to never tell the girl directly how you feel...

 

Now, I don't know anything about Doc Love's advice, but have you ever dated a women? Serious question. Have you ever seen what happens when a woman learns what you are affraid of, what your insecurities are, or how to manipulate you emotionally?

 

If you have never dated a woman, then you have no idea how suspicious it seems when women are so interested in your weaknesses.

If you have never dated a woman, then you have never experienced women try to manipulate your feelings or emotions.

And you have never come face to face with the reality that many women aren't sugar, spice, and everything nice.

 

Society paints men as evil, and many expect men to be evil. However, society paints women as innocent, the fairer sex, victims, but somewhere around middle school guys realize this isn't so and completely shut them off.

 

So why should a man reveal his emotions to a woman he does not know, and does not know very well?

 

Men are very well aware how weak and fraile they are, but society does not allow men to be weak or fraile. And neither do women's dating patterns select men who have vulernabilities. So he must hide it, until he knows that the woman he is will will not walk on him when he is weakest, but support him and build him up. That is very hard thing to find in a woman. Especially if the woman has a victim complex a thinks men deserve to be hurt.

 

So here's my question to the boards: ladies, do these tactics work on/for you, and I'm just kind of a freak-girl? Guys, have these techniques worked or not worked for you?

 

Never. Its no secret that those websites are selling something.

[joystickd]

These techniques work because people in general don't respect things that are just given to them. They like to earn it. I know there are guys here that can think of numerous times they came out and said how they felt and they either got told "I like you as a friend" or they got manipulated and then dumped horribly.

[Ninjainpajamas]

Good posts on this thread by the men...you're getting some very real and genuine opinions here.

 

Most men aren't reading a PUA site, I never even heard or thought of them until I came on this website and the guys who do are usually in way more need of desperate help and others are just reading for entertainment value like yourself.

 

However are there general rules to dating for men that hold truth? of course and that's the information you see repeated over and over, how men should be mysterious and say negative things or not be too interested. Those tactics in fact do work per se, but they are not mostly intentionally applied more than you just notice the dynamic of what works and what does not. Nor are they entirely effective and once informed pretty easy to see through by women. Plus any man knows a woman chooses a man, not the other way around!

 

Men know from experience that being an open-book, sensitive, genuine, upfront and too transparent early on will make you as enticing as a troll with down syndrome..you're more likely to be pitied and felt sorry for then ever get a girls number or come off attractive, It just never works out that way unless you attain other qualities that counter-balance that as well.

 

And men notice when they look around the guys being the biggest douchebags are getting all the girls. But mostly the guys are good looking, the girls are twirling their hair over it and he's able to get away with it because the women are interested/attracted. And that's why you see the nice guys get up in arms over the poor treatment these guys give versus guys who treat women too nicely and with too much respect to the point of devaluing themselves...but they don't see it that way because they don't have the confidence or looks to achieve the level that those guys easily can...or just half way.

 

And every mans had his battle..to learn about women and what works for them. It's not something i think the guys who are good at it put a lot o thought into, but It can definitely make a night and day difference for guys who are learning and trying to get it.

 

There are a lot of stupid things that work in the dating world that are extremely shallow, superficial and honestly just plain stupid...but the fact that you even know how to play the game and are good at it will gain the respect and interest of women because a lot of women do test you, they do size you up and see what how far they can push you and take you for a ride. If you're gullible, some women will screw you over and use you for their needs no doubt about it. If you're smart...then you simply cut through the BS and show that you see it, and they appreciate that too...because they're looking for a competent man themselves who's more capable and intelligent than the rest.

 

Don't forget that women are out there to judge and size up men. Men are left with the responsibility of figuring women out, a lot of women just expect to be the princess in the tower to be saved by prince charming...all they have to do is wave their hair, smile and they are automatically entitled to a wonderful man...you'll notice that most women out there feel like a great catch regardless of their actual appealing qualities to men. And women do put pressure on men to live up to these expectations regardless. That's why so many men go out of their way trying to be the perfect package. Some have natural talents, others have to compensate.

 

In the end you end up in a relationship, in which you will find a lot of that dating crap is completely useless. Where trust, communication, sharing/bonding, emotions, expression and understanding/compatibility are the real core values. Which i think the world is still struggling to understand.

[verhrzn]

Men know from experience that being an open-book, sensitive, genuine, upfront and too transparent early on will make you as enticing as a troll with down syndrome..you're more likely to be pitied and felt sorry for then ever get a girls number or come off attractive, It just never works out that way unless you attain other qualities that counter-balance that as well.

 

And men notice when they look around the guys being the biggest douchebags are getting all the girls. But mostly the guys are good looking, the girls are twirling their hair over it and he's able to get away with it because the women are interested/attracted. And that's why you see the nice guys get up in arms over the poor treatment these guys give versus guys who treat women too nicely and with too much respect to the point of devaluing themselves...but they don't see it that way because they don't have the confidence or looks to achieve the level that those guys easily can...or just half way.

 

I guess it just seems counter-productive to me because it doesn't work on me, and I find it very unappealing. I love guys who are genuine and upfront. I'd much rather a guy come on strongly than be "mysterious." I hate player douchebags with a passion, and I sneer at their games probably just as much, if not more, than the "nice guys."

 

I feel like these dating tips are counter-intuitive because, well, don't men want to date women like me? Women who like introverts, who aren't turned off by genuine affection, who hate the Player's Game? By adopting these tactics, sure, they might get a girl or a girlfriend, but it would be someone who is attracted to a fake personality... If you ever drop the aloof facade too fast, it all falls apart.

 

Isn't it better to just be confident in yourself, and find someone who likes that?

[joystickd]

I guess it just seems counter-productive to me because it doesn't work on me, and I find it very unappealing. I love guys who are genuine and upfront. I'd much rather a guy come on strongly than be "mysterious." I hate player douchebags with a passion, and I sneer at their games probably just as much, if not more, than the "nice guys."

 

I feel like these dating tips are counter-intuitive because, well, don't men want to date women like me? Women who like introverts, who aren't turned off by genuine affection, who hate the Player's Game? By adopting these tactics, sure, they might get a girl or a girlfriend, but it would be someone who is attracted to a fake personality... If you ever drop the aloof facade too fast, it all falls apart.

 

Isn't it better to just be confident in yourself, and find someone who likes that?

Dating in a sense is counterintuitive. Men would date women like you but you have to play the "game". Hell I am an INTJ personality to the fullest, but I had to make adjustments to become successful in dating. The thing is maybe liking introverts is one of the problems. Are you genuinely attracted to introverts or is it that you identify with them and date them because it's in your league? Confidence is a part of that but at the end of the day most women want more than that they want someone that is not an easy catch.

[verhrzn]

Dating in a sense is counterintuitive. Men would date women like you but you have to play the "game". Hell I am an INTJ personality to the fullest, but I had to make adjustments to become successful in dating. The thing is maybe liking introverts is one of the problems. Are you genuinely attracted to introverts or is it that you identify with them and date them because it's in your league? Confidence is a part of that but at the end of the day most women want more than that they want someone that is not an easy catch.

 

Well isn't identifying with them part of why I date them? Yes, I date them because they're in my "league" but also because I get them and they get me.

 

I'm not sure if I want an "easy" catch... like, I don't want a guy to date me just because he needs a girlfriend, and hey, I am a girl and breathing, I win! But games and manipulation are so exhausting. It takes so much work.

 

Isn't it better to just be your genuine self and find someone who fits that? If you start with the games, when can they ever end?

 

I think it's also that this type of advice focuses so much on the "success" of dating. A lot of guys seem to equate "success" with "lots of girls." As in, I can get laid a lot, or I can get a lot of numbers, or go on a lot of dates. Me, I call it success if I am in a happy relationship. I could go on only 1 date in an entire year, but if it leads to a relationship, I call it a success.

 

So maybe you need manipulation to target a large group of women. Me, I only need to find 1 guy, 1 guy who gets me and wants me, to be "successful."

[joystickd]

Well isn't identifying with them part of why I date them? Yes, I date them because they're in my "league" but also because I get them and they get me.

 

I'm not sure if I want an "easy" catch... like, I don't want a guy to date me just because he needs a girlfriend, and hey, I am a girl and breathing, I win! But games and manipulation are so exhausting. It takes so much work.

 

Isn't it better to just be your genuine self and find someone who fits that? If you start with the games, when can they ever end?

 

I think it's also that this type of advice focuses so much on the "success" of dating. A lot of guys seem to equate "success" with "lots of girls." As in, I can get laid a lot, or I can get a lot of numbers, or go on a lot of dates. Me, I call it success if I am in a happy relationship. I could go on only 1 date in an entire year, but if it leads to a relationship, I call it a success.

 

So maybe you need manipulation to target a large group of women. Me, I only need to find 1 guy, 1 guy who gets me and wants me, to be "successful."

Actually most of that advice when it comes down to it is for getting started. Its really not games. How many women you know actually will come out and say "You know what I like you"? The funny thing about manipulation is that it opens up the manipulator to get manipulated themselves. A guy not saying early on saying how he feels is not manipulative. Its just him figuring out if his feeling are reciprocated