Techniques for Picking Up Girls Seems Counterproductive

[borkus]

These tactics don't work on me.

 

These tactics do work for me as many gals I've taught them to have found PUA works on guys.

 

I like these emotional manipulation tactics from men's dating advice it's been a source of entertainment and amusement for me whether it's publicly humilating guys who use them when they approach me, using them on a guy out of boredom, or teaching gals how to use them to get what they want from a guy without having sex with him.

 

So it's wrong for guys to use it on you, but it's OK for you to use it on guys. I think the problem I have with your post and people who use emotional manipulation tactics is that they view people as objects for amusement and entertainment. Why do you and 49322 think it's fine to use emotional manipulation techniques on guys out of boredom. Players treat women like obstacles to be conquered. I noticed that the tone of some of your posts and 49322's posts treat guys with total coldness and contempt as if they deserved to be played and manipulated because they only want sex.

 

The difference is that guys who use these counterproductive techniques do so because they are desperate not to be seen as needy and weak. You and 49322 (I guess 49322 think its fine for girls to use manipulation techniques on himself because he is a guy.) think counterproductive techniques should be used on all guys (not only players but relationship-oriented guys) as payback for the way men treated women throughout history.

[udolipixie]

So it's wrong for guys to use it on you, but it's OK for you to use it on guys. I think the problem I have with your post and people who use emotional manipulation tactics is that they view people as objects for amusement and entertainment. Why do you and 49322 think it's fine to use emotional manipulation techniques on guys out of boredom. Players treat women like obstacles to be conquered. I noticed that the tone of some of your posts and 49322's posts treat guys with total coldness and contempt as if they deserved to be played and manipulated because they only want sex.

 

The difference is that guys who use these counterproductive techniques do so because they are desperate not to be seen as needy and weak. You and 49322 (I guess 49322 think its fine for girls to use manipulation techniques on himself because he is a guy.) think counterproductive techniques should be used on all guys (not only players but relationship-oriented guys) as payback for the way men treated women throughout history.

 

Where and when did I said it's wrong for guys to use it on me?

...

...

Oh that's right nowhere.

 

Unsure how you got 'it's wrong for guys to use it on me' when I made no judgements on it being wrong or right.

 

Really unsure where you got the tone of some of my posts is guys deserve to be played because they want only sex when I've clearly stated I do it out of boredom and for my amusement and entertainment.

 

I highly doubt that generally the guys who use these techniques do so because they're desperate and don't want to be seen as needy and weak. I think they do it to get what they want be it sex, dates, relationships, or marriage no different than me emotionally manipulating guys because it'll get me what I want- entertainment and amusement.

Edited August 25, 2012 by udolipixie

[verhrzn]

And women think that they don't expect this but they do, women have an inability to put themselves in the mans shoes, which is why It looks frustrating from your point of view...which is why some men listen to what women say and try to follow what they're saying as a guideline then mysteriously end up getting burned and having no success with women...and there's a reason for that, women oversimplify the process but when they think about it they realize they are hypocritical in many ways...

 

- Well I want a nice, genuine guy....but If he's too easy and nice then it's a complete turn off

 

- I want a guy who is completely open and genuine...but If he acts that way then he comes off desperate and clingy and i don't want that either

 

- I want a guy who's ready and available for a relationship, but If he offers that too willingly then It's just a turn-off because there's no challenge to that and he's just looking for a girlfriend

 

- I want a guy who is sensitive and expresses his feeling...but If he does this too much then he's not enough of a man and I want someone to lean on for strength

 

- I don't mind being aggressive and assertive with a man but If I act that way then he just remains passive and doesn't take over then I'm going to get frustrated and annoyed because i put myself out there even though I supposedly don't mind doing the work, ultimately I don't want to wear the pants and expect him to become a more assertive guy even If he wasn't taught he needed to be that way in the beginning.

 

Above is the real world...and I can assure you that you have the same kind of dynamic and expectations with men that you don't even see or realize.

 

*Shrugs* Like I said, maybe I'm just a minority. If I get any sign of a guy being not-that-interested in the beginning of a relationship, I bail. I want a guy who appears head-over-heels about me. I want a guy who seems more into me than I am into him. For example, I had a "friend" last summer who tried some of these behaviors on me... I suppose he thought he was succeeding, but by the time he actually got around to admitting he liked me, I'd already friend-zoned him. These behaviors = immediate friend-zone.

 

I guess this psychology may work on the majority of women. I can't say. I can just say it wouldn't work on me, and would have me running for the hills.

So what's more important to guys, something that is a game that works on the majority of women, or attracting someone who they don't have to use psychology with?

[RedRobin]

So what's more important to guys, something that is a game that works on the majority of women, or attracting someone who they don't have to use psychology with?

 

I think we know the answer to this one....

[MaxNoob]

Getting reciprocity from a woman isn’t like playing a video game. There’s no set of instructions. If you press the A and B button together, nothing is guaranteed to happen (Is there still an A and B button? Was there ever?).

 

Yup, controllers still have A and B buttons. But getting a girl is more like using a Wii motion controller. You have to use just the right amount of hand gestures and groping, like taming a horse.

 

You don’t have to do any strange, choreographed mating dance when someone is attracted to you.

 

I have plenty of success without using PUA tactics; all I need is duct tape and a sound proof room.

[fortyninethousand322]

The difference is that guys who use these counterproductive techniques do so because they are desperate not to be seen as needy and weak. You and 49322 (I guess 49322 think its fine for girls to use manipulation techniques on himself because he is a guy.) think counterproductive techniques should be used on all guys (not only players but relationship-oriented guys) as payback for the way men treated women throughout history.

 

Meh, it's more that I like candid opinions and honesty. It greats my nerves when people put on phony personas about how innocent they are and how they would never ever manipulate people or do something morally questionable.

 

There are no innocent bystanders or innocent victims. If you are of sound mind and body, anything and everything is fair game. Love and dating is not considerate or fair. Facts of life.

[joystickd]

*Shrugs* Like I said, maybe I'm just a minority. If I get any sign of a guy being not-that-interested in the beginning of a relationship, I bail. I want a guy who appears head-over-heels about me. I want a guy who seems more into me than I am into him. For example, I had a "friend" last summer who tried some of these behaviors on me... I suppose he thought he was succeeding, but by the time he actually got around to admitting he liked me, I'd already friend-zoned him. These behaviors = immediate friend-zone.

 

I guess this psychology may work on the majority of women. I can't say. I can just say it wouldn't work on me, and would have me running for the hills.

So what's more important to guys, something that is a game that works on the majority of women, or attracting someone who they don't have to use psychology with?

Usually these type things are for guys with 0 skills. Its like a start to get in the game. A lot of the male dating advice is dedicated to getting in the game. It more like getting the ball rolling to get out there on the path to figuring out what truly works. The neg and the PUA stuff like indirect game I totally disagree with, but having some level of mystery in the initial stages of a male/female interaction I recommend. The not saying how you feel thing is an experience thing they have to learn who to say it or not say it too. The bold question I will say both are important but if a man doesn't get out there he will never find that person they don't have to use "psychology" with. As for dating advice I totally ignore PUA and people like Doc Love. I check out guys like Tariq Nasheed, Alan Roger Currie, Player Supreme, and David X.

[verhrzn]

I think we know the answer to this one....

 

Yeah that touches on what I was saying before, that AMOUNT of women seems more important to guys than QUALITY of women.

 

I did notice a trend in all the articles that these techniques were used on really beautiful/hot/gorgeous women. Like, these techniques are not a way to get a good woman, but a hot one. That sort of explains it, as hot women have lots of options and so you probably need some type of manipulation to get through if you are not in her league.

 

As always, I just mourn the idea that there are us average girls who would be perfectly happy without games, but guys find it necessary to write a play book just to get in a hot girl's pants.

[joystickd]

I think we know the answer to this one....

Not really it depends on the guy you are asking.

[joystickd]

Yeah that touches on what I was saying before, that AMOUNT of women seems more important to guys than QUALITY of women.

 

I did notice a trend in all the articles that these techniques were used on really beautiful/hot/gorgeous women. Like, these techniques are not a way to get a good woman, but a hot one. That sort of explains it, as hot women have lots of options and so you probably need some type of manipulation to get through if you are not in her league.

 

As always, I just mourn the idea that there are us average girls who would be perfectly happy without games, but guys find it necessary to write a play book just to get in a hot girl's pants.

Have you ever seen one of those DVDs where they talk PUA stuff and seen some of the guys on them? Hell some of them need whatever advantage they can get. You are not average.

[Anela]

Lets be honest half the population off women dont have healthy self esteem

 

So, you want to beat it up some more, and manipulate them into sleeping with you? You don't leave them better than you found them, when you do things like that (PUA techniques, like negging) - but you aren't thinking about them at all, you're only thinking about yourself.

 

Anyone with self-esteem will laugh at you and walk away.

[fortyninethousand322]

Anyone with self-esteem will laugh at you and walk away.

 

Let's be honest, for a lot of guys on here, anyone with high self esteem will laugh at them regardless. Might as well try some tricks that give you a .0001% chance than be yourself and have 0% chance.

[RedRobin]

So, you want to beat it up some more, and manipulate them into sleeping with you? You don't leave them better than you found them, when you do things like that (PUA techniques, like negging) - but you aren't thinking about them at all, you're only thinking about yourself.

 

 

... and that is the evil part about alot of this stuff...

 

It comes from a place of real hatred towards women, IMHO.

 

I laugh... because I feel sorry for the guys... and sometimes humor is the only way to manage these things...

 

But I'm sad for the state of 'dating' that this is what things have come to... very sad.

 

Makes me not want to participate much or at all, TBH.

[fortyninethousand322]

It comes from a place of real hatred towards women, IMHO.

 

I don't see it that way at all. I look at it the way I look at using steroids or other artificial means to get an edge in sports. Some people just aren't that good on their own, so they go out and get some help getting over the top.

[verhrzn]

Have you ever seen one of those DVDs where they talk PUA stuff and seen some of the guys on them? Hell some of them need whatever advantage they can get. You are not average.

 

How bout the advantage of proper grooming, a good job and a decent sense of humor? I've seen guys with far less get amazing girlfriends.

 

Well, if I'm not the average, then what am I?

[joystickd]

... and that is the evil part about alot of this stuff...

 

It comes from a place of real hatred towards women, IMHO.

 

I laugh... because I feel sorry for the guys... and sometimes humor is the only way to manage these things...

 

But I'm sad for the state of 'dating' that this is what things have come to... very sad.

 

Makes me not want to participate much or at all, TBH.

I wouldn't say hatred but it does come from a place of "well I might as well f**k her over before she f**ks me over". That is established in PUA by promoting books like Sperm Wars, The Red Queen and The Selfish Gene. It basically says well women will cheat no matter what and that they love jerks. I spent a lot of time checking out PUA stuff extensively. Overall it sucks because I don't see the use for the majority of it in my life. I have had trouble with women but it took changing me and my beliefs more than reading some advice column. I will say they are some guys so hooked into knowledge that this applies to them. They are too lazy to be proactive in their start of discovering what works for them

[Anela]

I have never been attracted to someone cold and distant. The only time that type of thing has affected me, has been this guy knew that I really liked him, and he messed with me - he also knew that I was in no shape to take it. When I was in a better frame of mind, I bailed.

 

The day before Valentine's Day, I blasted someone who had hit on me when he was in a relationship, and almost damaged my friendship with his girlfriend. She was strong enough to break up with him, and we're still friends. If I see someone treating another woman in a way that I wouldn't want to be treated - like this, actually hitting on me, when his girlfriend was busier, so he was bored - I won't give him the time of day if he tries it on with me.

 

If someone won't stand up for me, or indicates that I'm not good enough for him (but I might be good enough for a little slap and tickle) - not going to happen. I don't understand where this "treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen" crap came from, because it DOESN'T work, unless you're basically mentally abusing someone for your own pleasure, and they aren't strong enough to ignore you - they don't love themselves enough to say, "**** you."

[iris219]

I’ve tried in the past to wait for a man to show his true self and open up; I won’t do that again. I found that many men who don’t open up quickly don’t have the emotional depth I desire. I need to know very soon what a man wants and how he feels. Here’s how I operate.

 

I don’t like the guy and he pretends to be mysterious: nothing will happen between us.

 

I don’t like guy and he opens up and shows interest: nothing will happen between us.

 

I like the guy, but he’s not opening up or showing enough interest: nothing will happen between us.

 

I like the guy and he opens up and shows high interest: Jackpot!

 

Translation...

 

He didn't initially think you'd be interested in him because he was 10 years older.

 

You had other things to take care of... and so didn't fall into the "let's f for awhile and see how things go" trap.

 

Notice he casually dated (aka used) a woman his own age for that (note to ladies... pay attention!!).

 

He pursued you in the way you wanted to be pursued... and it actually involved some effort on his part.

 

Why did you two break up?

 

My ex wasn’t using anyone. He went on a couple dates with a woman, and then he met me. I pursued him. He didn't think it was appropriate to date a girl so much younger, but I broke his resolve. We broke up after 4 years because I grew up and became a different person. Also, we were in different places in our lives and it caused a strain. For example, he was ready for marriage; I was in grad school and wasn’t ready for marriage. I ultimately had to end it.

[Woggle]

I wouldn't say hatred but it does come from a place of "well I might as well f**k her over before she f**ks me over". That is established in PUA by promoting books like Sperm Wars, The Red Queen and The Selfish Gene. It basically says well women will cheat no matter what and that they love jerks. I spent a lot of time checking out PUA stuff extensively. Overall it sucks because I don't see the use for the majority of it in my life. I have had trouble with women but it took changing me and my beliefs more than reading some advice column. I will say they are some guys so hooked into knowledge that this applies to them. They are too lazy to be proactive in their start of discovering what works for them

 

This I agree with right here. It is not hatred but a feeling of play them before they can play you. When a man is betrayed by a woman he is truly open with and cares about something in him dies and affects the way he treats women from that point on. It's messed up but why not place some of the blame on the woman who onced betrayed him?

[mesmerized]

Not me, but I'm probably smarter than the average girl. Maybe it works on dumb bimbos.

[Imajerk17]

There are rules to the psychological game, and the reason I say game because just like any sport there are rules to adhere by...the "players" objective is to follow the rules while at the same time be genuine to himself....you can't do somethings out of those rules and parameters, however some can which makes that person a superior "player". And those "rules and parameters" are determined through a feeling out process rather than hard-lined and easy to interpret.

 

And women think that they don't expect this but they do, women have an inability to put themselves in the mans shoes, which is why It looks frustrating from your point of view...which is why some men listen to what women say and try to follow what they're saying as a guideline then mysteriously end up getting burned and having no success with women...and there's a reason for that, women oversimplify the process but when they think about it they realize they are hypocritical in many ways...

 

- Well I want a nice, genuine guy....but If he's too easy and nice then it's a complete turn off

 

- I want a guy who is completely open and genuine...but If he acts that way then he comes off desperate and clingy and i don't want that either

 

- I want a guy who's ready and available for a relationship, but If he offers that too willingly then It's just a turn-off because there's no challenge to that and he's just looking for a girlfriend

 

- I want a guy who is sensitive and expresses his feeling...but If he does this too much then he's not enough of a man and I want someone to lean on for strength

 

- I don't mind being aggressive and assertive with a man but If I act that way then he just remains passive and doesn't take over then I'm going to get frustrated and annoyed because i put myself out there even though I supposedly don't mind doing the work, ultimately I don't want to wear the pants and expect him to become a more assertive guy even If he wasn't taught he needed to be that way in the beginning.

 

Above is the real world...and I can assure you that you have the same kind of dynamic and expectations with men that you don't even see or realize.

 

Women think they want transparency but when men do they're always the "wrong guy"...If that same guy were to adhere to the rules, act not so interested and open with his emotions that you are dating chances are you'd make completely different assumptions and be interested...to the EXACT SAME GUY. He just reacted and did things differently, what failed him with the last girl suddenly works now. This is why confidence works, it means not putting your eggs in one basket, learning to not become too emotionally invested too quickly and paying attention to the dynamic and reciprocating gestures from their partner.

 

Men and women do this to protect themselves and not appear as available/interested as they really are...however some people do this same tactic when they are emotionally unavailable so you have to read between the lines and pay attention. Some men don't finish the games, they try and swoon you over with things you want to hear and never ease off the BS as they are getting to the emotional phase...these guys are what you would call the "player" type, not so much players to me but in general terms yes.

 

Men transition otherwise out of the "game" phase and will become more genuine and open, once they feel accepted and more relaxed, which means emotional investment from the woman as to not be so easily written off or judged.

 

Very well-put NinjaInPajamas.

 

 

A lot of PUA advice is indeed bad. I will discuss this in another post but I want to now focus on NIP's post.

 

Many guys who turn to PUA stuff aren't guys with nefarious intentions, they are instead guys who do the best they can with women and yet who still struggle, and they're just willing to do what it takes to overcome their difficulties. These guys do the best they can with what they have and they actually tend to have good jobs (their analytical nature serves them well in the working world) and often are decent-looking. They take girls out on dates--and gladly pay--and on the date, they are attentive, emotionally expressive, share their feelings, and express willingness for a relationship. And yet, the date ends with maybe a hug or a peck on the cheek and they never see the girl again. When he calls she might have the courtesy to text back that he is a "great guy but no chemistry" but very often she just vanishes. All that effort on his part to show the girl a good time and she treats him like a non-person after the date, not even having the courtesy to get back to him once.

 

When this happens to you time and time again, it kinda wears on a guy. So he tends to seek out advice. Most of the advice he gets from the mainstream doesn't help. "Be Confident!" (whatever THAT means).

 

Many women don't get how hard it is to date them. It is on guys to approach, but if we do it in the wrong way or at the "wrong" time (e.g., when you're in the gym) you often aren't very nice about it. You want us to take you out on dates but if you're not feeling it after very often you don't even have the courtesy to get back to us. And about the not feeling it thing--many of you are hardly willing to give things a chance. See, a lot of you want "butterflies" early on, and yet a lot of guys who are nice solid and dependable struggle to create this.

 

And at the same time, we know that many of you women are hooking up with guys who don't seem to be trying nearly so hard. Hmmm....

 

So with all the confusion many guys experience over women, it is understandable that they turn to other sources of advice. Enter the PUA Community.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Imajerk17

[Imported]

Not me, but I'm probably smarter than the average girl. Maybe it works on dumb bimbos.

 

That's what every dumb bimbo thinks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry couldn't resist

[Woggle]

Ninjainpajamas is just killing it in this thread. Ladies if you truly want to understand guys and do better with them really read what he says. Most of us would love to date and have relationships without the PUA techniques. We much prefer being straightforward and sincere but we do what works. If doing what many of the women in this thread claim to want really worked well the majority of men would do it.

[verhrzn]

Ninjainpajamas is just killing it in this thread. Ladies if you truly want to understand guys and do better with them really read what he says. Most of us would love to date and have relationships without the PUA techniques. We much prefer being straightforward and sincere but we do what works. If doing what many of the women in this thread claim to want really worked well the majority of men would do it.

 

And I have said over and over that I am EXACTLY the type of girl that embraces sincerity and open affection. And yet guys choose to ignore me, and instead use PUA and this other "mysterious" advice. So why in the world are guys ignoring the girls who WOULD be compatible with them

 

Oh, that's right. We're not hot. :-P

 

Really, it just goes round and round. Ugly/non-stuck up girls are perfectly happy with genuine affection. But guys chase after the hot girls, who in turn ignore them for the hot guys.

 

Honestly, what is all of this advice supposed to teach us about guys? That guys are fake, that guys play games because of the mean widdle girls, that guys ignore girls who don't enjoy games?

 

If guys are so sick of having to play games, then why don't they chase after girls who aren't into that behavior?

[Woggle]

It's because when they first meet you they don't know that you want sincerity. The women before you chewed them up for showing so now they use PUA techniques by default. It's sad but that is modern dating for you.