It takes two to tango: personal responsibility in rape

[lydiamarie]

that quote of yours, fayebelle, is from ben franklin. he's a dead white guy. that means something, right? so let's see what else he has to say:

 

'Distrust and caution are the parents of security.'

 

'He that's secure is not safe.'

 

'Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other.'

 

yup. those were franklin too. and so is this:

 

'All human situations have their inconveniences. We feel those of the present but neither see nor feel those of the future; and hence we often make troublesome changes without amendment, and frequently for the worse.'

[Mr Spock]

Originally posted by moimeme

Mr. Spock, it's good that you believe you've got it all figured out. That in itself is dangerous because you think you've got all bases covered.

 

Lydiamarie - it's good to see you on the thread. Unfortunately, what you're saying doesn't seem to be sinking in.

 

Are you being hostile? Or just concerned. I fail to see how you glean that I've got it all figured out. I just try and protect myself from possible dangerous situations, that's all.

 

I shouldn't HAVE to live like that, but to be safe I do. That's all.

[lydiamarie]

replace 'safe' with 'safer' and you'll save yourself the arguement

 

and it's merry, of course she's concerned. not hostile.

[Mr Spock]

Good point lydiamarie. I SHOULD be saying "safer" and not "safe".

[Bobbie]

this is an interesting thread showing how people interpret social facts in different ways.

 

I'd like to say:

 

1. rape DOES HAVE largely a sexual motive, it is about sexual gratification for a person who is immature, has poor impulse-control and negative views of others.

 

There seems to have grown a myth that rape is simply about exercising power.

 

In fact, most rapists choose victims who are obviously weaker than themselves: inebriated, in distress or children, for primarily practical reasons.

There are very few Hannibal Lectors in the world...but many many loser-abusers...

 

2. The whole of society has responsibility for sexual abuse.

 

We accept media and advertising based upon blatantly sexual imagery.

 

In Britian years ago we had the Moors murders and my then husband said to me, life is so cynical, if printing every salacious detail would sell newspapers then that's what newspapers would print. Since then I've seen over and over horrific details used to sell print.

 

We have to challenge outmoded views of women.

 

Women do not have to correspond to virgin-madonna or prostitute stereotypes.

 

Women do not have to justify or overexplain their needs.

 

We have to stop labelling women: slut/ mother/ housewife/ nun/ ugly/ fat/ dog/ cow/ bitch/ whore/ cook/ bag/ hag/ drunk/ beautiful/ homemaker/ cleaner/ pr*ckteaser/ frump/ old/ young...everyone is more than the sum of a few trite labels.

 

Most of the labels women face are too much, things we can't deal with or dismiss easily.

 

They lead to us being secondary citizens and men being dismissive, sexist and abusive.

 

3. raising our sons.

 

That's the answer for the future.

Let's bring up our boys not to be good-old-boys full of entitlement but to treat everyone with respect and compassion.

Why not stop thinking it's a good thing for boys to be aggressive and uncooperative, and calling it feisty...

 

Ghandi said 'be the change you want to see in the world'.

 

A most appropriate quote for undoing the personal and social dynamics which cause ( even promote ) violent crime.

[kirkyswife]

Lydia

 

THANK YOU for sharing your story (that started this whole thread) - I am sorry that you were subjected to the actions of a monster. I too am bipolar but at the time of my rape had not been diagnosed. How have you been since this ocurred? I don't recall how long ago this was but have you dated since and how has that been for you? What steps did you take after the assault?

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by Bobbie

1. rape DOES HAVE largely a sexual motive, it is about sexual gratification for a person who is immature, has poor impulse-control and negative views of others.

 

There seems to have grown a myth that rape is simply about exercising power.

Just because you have an idea doesn't make it factual, and it in no way makes the other idea 'mythical'. Rape does not have a largely-sexual motive. Rape is about power--that's what drives it, it's about power and control. You can delude yourself into thinking this isn't true, but you're the one who is basing your opinion on social myths--in fact, here's a handy list of rape myths from an academic institution (rape is about sex, not about power = myth numero uno) :

 

 

http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/myths.html

2. The whole of society has responsibility for sexual abuse.

 

We accept media and advertising based upon blatantly sexual imagery.

The sexualization of society in no way facilitates rape. Rape is an act of violence, not sex. It's not the Victoria Secret ads that cause men to rape, it's the violent movies and television shows. I think society is completely backwards for allowing graphic depictions of warfare, murder, and mayhem--while censoring a human female nipple--something every person of every age has seen.

We have to stop labelling women: slut/ mother/ housewife/ nun/ ugly/ fat/ dog/ cow/ bitch/ whore/ cook/ bag/ hag/ drunk/ beautiful/ homemaker/ cleaner/ pr*ckteaser/ frump/ old/ young...everyone is more than the sum of a few trite labels.

 

Most of the labels women face are too much, things we can't deal with or dismiss easily.

 

They lead to us being secondary citizens and men being dismissive, sexist and abusive.

A straw man at best. Women call each other sluts just as much as men do. It's a defense mechanism. Some people are just mean, and it's not a male oppressor, it's just mean people. Even the most secure woman can be a victim of violent crime such as rape.

 

3. raising our sons.

 

That's the answer for the future.

Let's bring up our boys not to be good-old-boys full of entitlement but to treat everyone with respect and compassion.

Why not stop thinking it's a good thing for boys to be aggressive and uncooperative, and calling it feisty...

Idealistic and unhelpful. The best mother in the world can still raise a daughter that could be a rape victim. It's like saying that not drinking and driving will save you from being killed by a drunk driver.

 

The world is imperfect. The people who have the time, desire, and finances to be good parents are not the issue. It's everyone else who is--and there's nothing we can ever do to stop that evil from occuring. It's a cycle of abuse that will never end.

[shamen]

Thank you dyer for this enlightening post!

 

If you've (someone else) not already taken the time to click it, do! A lot of the things that have been discussed in this thread are addressed in the link.

 

It's all about the myths about rape. Very informative.

[Bobbie]

yes, the links thread is very good, very accurate.

 

And I may be idealistic in my viewpoint Dyer, but I hear and see almost every day things which reinforce my belief that many men do not have healthy beliefs about others.

 

Time and again male agression is applauded rather than censored.

 

In my time with the Probation Service I met and got to know around 400 sex offenders and almost every one was not particularly violent or dangerous except they had dysfunctional sexuality and negative beliefs about women and children. Of course their behaviour to the people they sexually assaulted was violence and experienced as violence by the victim, but I've never heard a sex-offender discuss this in other than minimising terms; ie the offender persuaded themself that they hadn't done much harm really. I used to think how can you rehabilitate that...

 

I'd say that most of them needed to be locked away for life because the alternative- not to exercise their sexuality- was unlikely to work over time.

 

I have never met a violent woman sex offender- the only women I saw were involved with a male abuser and picked up charges of child neglect or perverting the course of justice etc and just twice there women who had an inappropriate relationship with an underage child.

 

Idealistic and unhelpful. The best mother in the world can still raise a daughter that could be a rape victim. It's like saying that not drinking and driving will save you from being killed by a drunk driver.

 

You're missing my point.

We are so desensitised to images of violence and stereotypes of women, if more people called developing men on their behaviour, and maybe if more of us called the film and media industries on what they churn out, maybe people would be better educated to know when their behaviour is becoming abusive, and when bad things happen we wouldn't get people writing that it's the victims own fault...which is where the thread started.

[Fayebelle]

Originally posted by Bobbie

You're missing my point.

We are so desensitised to images of violence and stereotypes of women, if more people called developing men on their behaviour,

 

OK- call them on it- then what? This came up on another thread-just b/c someone shows menacing behaviour- they can not be forced into treatment or containment based on behaviour alone. A crime must be commited Before action can be taken.

 

So what do you recommend?

[shamen]

Whoops, I meant to say enlightening LINK! Click on dyer's link.

[RapeSurvivor]

Originally posted by Mr Spock

That's an extremely good point shamen. However, I'm saying that I wouldn't GO to the room because to me, all men want sex. All of the time. And if I didn't want to have it, I'd just stay in the restaraunt. I'm NOT excusing rape in any way. It's just a way that I protect myself.

 

That's the type of outlook that leads to the - she should have known All men want sex All the time- defense that gets men off in court. Totally unacceptable outlook to me.

 

Originally posted by dyermaker

No it's not. Spock's outlook is a RESPONSE to that twisted justification. She's just trying to protect herself.

 

She said it was a totally unacceptable outlook to her. She's entitled to her own outlook. Having gone to court, I can see her point. My rapist got off virtually scott-free with that defense. I'll post a link to my thread on what happened to me. http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t43527/?highlight=Rape Take a look at it.

 

The poster she was responding to says to help avoid some situations she chooses to not trust men at all. I was like that for a long time too. I understand how it is to feel that way. Its not something others can fully understand unless they have actually felt it. It works for a while, but at some point a person has to trust or risk making what could be a wonderful relationship, mediocre. Other people can try to imagine how they would feel in a given situation, but its one of those things that can't possibly be fully understood until you've experienced it yourself.

 

It took me a long time to trust again, and I spent a great deal of time second-guessing every decision and choice that I had to make. So many people kept telling me what THEY would do in my situation, and how THEY would have handled it, and how I Should Have prevented it, that I began to doubt every move I made and I trusted no one. They were not trying to be mean, but they did not realize how their talk devalued the rape. How it trivialized the rape.

 

NO ONE can protect themselves 100%. Just because someone is raped does not mean that the victim doesn't know enough to protect themselves, or is irresponsible or careless. We don't know what our choices in life AVOID, we only know to what our choices led. Suppose Good 'ol Robert Frost had taken the road MORE traveled? That would have made a difference too.

[HokeyReligions]

Originally posted by Bobbie

In my time with the Probation Service I met and got to know around 400 sex offenders and almost every one was not particularly violent or dangerous except they had dysfunctional sexuality and negative beliefs about women and children. Of course their behaviour to the people they sexually assaulted was violence and experienced as violence by the victim, but I've never heard a sex-offender discuss this in other than minimising terms; ie the offender persuaded themself that they hadn't done much harm really.

 

I'd say that most of them needed to be locked away for life because the alternative- not to exercise their sexuality- was unlikely to work over time.

 

Are you a probation officer? What kind of training have you had? Do you have a license, certificate, or degree and approporate training in psychology? Do you counsel probationers? I'm not trying to be mean, I'm trying to understand where you are coming from.

 

Most of the rapists only exhibit their violent behavior through sexual acts, i.e. rape. They can be the nicest guy-next-door type on the surface and even to their own families. But when they release their anger or their rage or their need to express the violence from themselves, they do it with rape.

 

It is not a dysfunctional sexuality, or negative beliefs about women--it goes much deeper. Those are symptoms of a much greater problem within the person's psyche. The character flaw/disease/illness/mental dysfunction presents as a violent act such as rape. Women and control may be a trigger and yes, rapists can and do have unhealthy views of women as a whole, but the rape is not about women or sex, and especially it has nothing to do with their own sexuality. A lot of rapists have very healthy sex lives with their partners. They express their sexuality just fine. Each sexual encounter a rapists has, is not necessarily a rape.

 

You're missing my point.

We are so desensitised to images of violence and stereotypes of women, if more people called developing men on their behaviour, and maybe if more of us called the film and media industries on what they churn out, maybe people would be better educated to know when their behaviour is becoming abusive, and when bad things happen we wouldn't get people writing that it's the victims own fault...which is where the thread started.

 

I agree. I wish we could tone down the media. However, that is not going to happen. Look at American History as it pertains to film, print, and television. Look at censorship and the fights throughout our history in trying to govern and interpret freedom of speech issues, and the freedom to express ones self.

 

I wish more parents would monitor what their children see and hear more closely and DISCUSS the stuff with them instead of just ignoring it or brushing it aside like its not important.

 

I remember a song when I was younger, called "Wake Up Little Susie" by the Evely Brothers, that was banned on the radio stations around me. It was lewd and suggestive and the community was up in arms about what the song suggested and about letting teenagers listen to it!

[Bobbie]

one of the horrific things someone talked about on this thread was being raped where other people were present and did nothing to assist, watched the assault.

 

Clearly they bought into the same abusive viewpoint as the rapist himself.

 

That's really shocking don't you think? There will always be bad people doing bad things but the thought that others won't try to stop them..

 

I think every time a man makes a sexist joke or guffaws with his mates about a night in a topless bar or his sexual conquests, every time we see the heroine of the movie gazing simperingly at some macho man who just caused a car wreck or smashed a place up or shot someone, every time a little kid shouts die --- whilst attacking a character in a video game, it's all buying into the same socially destructive viewpoints: women are not equal, male aggression is sexy, I'm entitled to do what the hell I like etc. And it's a big etc, there are loads of other situations and people when you think about it.

 

There was a popular comedy show came out on the BBC I think about 10 years ago ( it might have run here, I don't know ) called Father Ted about some priests. The opening scene was a drunken elderly priest dreaming about teenage schoolgirls in a sexual way...it seemed incredible to me that anyone could see that in any other context than perverted. That's when I woke up to the fact that people watch this kind of stuff uncritically without any thought of the wider issues. Any night that week you could have watched BBC news about victims of child sex scandals, yet it's ok to laugh at a guy perving on girls...

 

This was brought home to me again recently watching a current film called The Terminal. When Tom Hanks is hungry and only has crackers, mustard and mayonnaise to eat the whole audience laughed, and I just thought what about all the people who do survive like that, what's funny about that? Someone starving and eating the free crackers in a diner...when did we start to think that's funny?

 

I'm bowing out now, got to do some work.

The whole thread has made me think though.

[HokeyReligions]

Originally posted by Bobbie

one of the horrific things someone talked about on this thread was being raped where other people were present and did nothing to assist, watched the assault.

 

I remember Kitty Genovese. In New York, in 1963 or 1964. She screamed as she was being attacked and neighbors turned on lights and saw her and someone shouted and her attacker left, then the neighbors turned out their lights and the attacker came back and repeatedly stabbed her. She screamed and cried and dragged herself to an apartment door and it was not until THE NEXT day that a neighbor, seeing her body, called the police. She could have been saved. She could have lived. And a neighborhood turned their back on her. That has always stayed with me. It sickened me then, and sickens me now, to think that we could watch that and do nothing. Turn our backs on another life and just DO NOTHING.

 

--------------

 

sorry, off topic.

 

I do agree though, culpability should not stop at the perpetrator.

 

Ok. I got curious and looked up Kitty Genovese. There is a lot out there! Here is part of what I found:

[color=darkblue]

Kitty Genovese: It was a name that ... would stand for Americans who were too indifferent or too frightened or too alienated or too self-absorbed to "get involved'' in helping a fellow human being in dire trouble. A term ``the Genovese syndrome'' would be coined to describe the attitude.

 

Detectives investigating Genovese's murder discovered that no fewer than 38 of her neighbors had witnessed at least one of her killer's three attacks but had neither come to her aid nor called the police. The one call made to the police came after Genovese was already dead.

[/color]

 

http://www.newsday.com/extras/lihistory/8/hs818a.htm

[Fayebelle]

They teach you to yell "fire" when attacked b/c everyone will want to run over and check it out

 

Yell "help" and everyone will want to run away and stay out of it

 

 

Whatever happened to the hero mentality? Teaching boys to grow into gentlemen who not only would never do anything to harm a woman- they'd do anything to save her.

 

Granted women are now a lot less "damsel in distress-ish" but a gentleman would have done Kirky's a world of good had he been there when she was attacked.

 

My BF is not violent but I asked him what he would have done if he had been there when Kirky's attack happened -he said he would have gone after the guy and any creepy voyeur watching. He'd rather be hospitalized and give her a chance to get away than stand idley by.

[Mr Spock]

I find it useless to go by what people say they would do or would have done in ANY situation, as what we think we would do and what our wiring and instincts sometimes do are completely different when faced with dangerous situations or we're infused with adrenaline. I certainly hope I would have the courage to not freeze up if I ever saw a child being hurt, or likewise situations.

[lydiamarie]

Originally posted by kirkyswife

Lydia

 

THANK YOU for sharing your story (that started this whole thread) - I am sorry that you were subjected to the actions of a monster. I too am bipolar but at the time of my rape had not been diagnosed. How have you been since this ocurred? I don't recall how long ago this was but have you dated since and how has that been for you? What steps did you take after the assault?

 

i am terribly sorry that you had to go through what you did, kirky'swife.

 

it was only after reading other LSers' posts that i had the courage to tell my story. so i want to say thank you to all of you for sharing your stories, no matter the topic. these boards have made me laugh and cry and they are so sincere.

 

after the assault, i went to the hospital. i did not show the doctors the marks that he left, but i did tell the nurse that it was rape. i called it date rape, even though i had never met him before. i just thought it would mean fewer questions asked. i got the morning after pill.

 

i still cry about the baby that could have been. it really bothers me that i had to take MOP. but what choice did i have? i'm in college. i take out loans. i wasn't with the man whose child it would have been. i was medicated for my manic depression which would have been an ordeal itself; going off the meds for the pregnancy would not have been an option as i spent the year before desperately trying to become stable, with little luck. it seemed like it was one thing after another.

 

i had been diagnosed with bipolar a couple of years before i was raped (it happened this spring) and was being treated for a depressive episode at the time that it occured.

 

i have recently had my meds tweaked. i'm doing better on that front. i've been fairly stable for a few months now.

 

i've told my psychiatrist and psychologist about the rape. we talk about it at my appointsments (i go three times a month, though it's been a bit more frequently lately because we have so much to talk about).

 

i'm moving out of this apartment. i think it will definitely help to be away from the scene of the crime.

 

i'm buying a new bed.

 

i've found a job and a roomate.

 

i have not dated much since i was raped. it took me a while before i could stand to have my male friends touch me at all. it was a hard thing to get used to again.

 

any attempt at intimacy sparks a bit of panic, but i can breathe through it, and i can (now) separate the rape from the rest of my sexual experience without much difficulty, sometimes it just takes me a minute.

 

and i have been dating a bit more frequently recently-a few boys that i've known for a long time and dated (casually) before. i'm taking this slow.

[FolderWife]

While a woman walking down the street, who gets attacked by a stranger is raped and it's completely NOT her fault, a woman who is making out with a man *teasing* who gets close to penetration, and then says "no" is pretty dumb.

[lydiamarie]

just because something isn't the wisest or most prudent course of action does NOT mean that it is dumb.

 

women can change their mind at any time. there is no point of no return.

 

h#ll, if i want to say STOP during sex. he d@mn well better stop.

 

on top of that, most of the time when we kiss and fool around with someone, it is with a person we know and trust. it would be closer to 'dumb' if it were with a stranger-but that isn't how rape happens.

 

RAPE IS NEVER THE VICTIMS FAULT.

 

EVER.

 

PUT THE BLAME WHERE IT IS DUE.

[lydiamarie]

i guess what i am trying to say is that we can act with varying degrees of caution and prudence and paranoia and it is a balance that we all try to find (between that and living our lives freely)

 

our behavior can REDUCE our risk. but it CAN NOT elimininate it.

 

the amount of caution that one acts with is NOT inversely proportional to the degree to which they are to blame for being raped.

 

a victim is NEVER to blame. the CRIMINAL is.

[Bobbie]

While a woman walking down the street, who gets attacked by a stranger is raped and it's completely NOT her fault, a woman who is making out with a man *teasing* who gets close to penetration, and then says "no" is pretty dumb.

 

monday

 

 

in the real new world I want to live in, post-patriarchy, all people are equal and call each other on behaviour and attitudes and treat each other with respect or remove themselves from each other and relationships are negotiated.

 

Translation into new world of what you said:

 

a woman walking down the street, who gets attacked by a stranger is raped and another stranger intervenes and helps, and a woman who is making out with a man *teasing* who gets close to penetration, and then says "no" is entitled to do so and the man does not force her to have sex but goes away feeling guilty and thinking about about his attitude in that he almost raped her.

 

NO WOMAN EVER DESERVES RAPE.

 

The comments that some people are making here are very distressing, and I've never been sexually attacked; I'd be devastated if I had been to think that there was no support or validation for my right to control what happens to my own body.

 

Yes, there's violence. Yes, there's alcohol.

But come on...I know many men who would not rape me no matter what come-on I gave, or what I said or did, no matter how much we drank.

 

THE RAPIST IS THE CRIMINAL NOT THE WOMAN ( OR MAN OR CHILD ) WHO IS RAPED.

 

This thread shows some disturbing values.

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by RapeSurvivor

She said it was a totally unacceptable outlook to her. She's entitled to her own outlook. Having gone to court, I can see her point. My rapist got off virtually scott-free with that defense. I'll post a link to my thread on what happened to me. http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t43527/?highlight=Rape Take a look at it.

The connection between "protecting yourself" and "enabling men to get off scot-free in court" was alluded to, but I don't buy it. She wasn't explaining a personal outlook, she was saying that someone else's outlook leads to men avoiding rape charges, which is absurd.

We don't know what our choices in life AVOID, we only know to what our choices led. Suppose Good 'ol Robert Frost had taken the road MORE traveled? That would have made a difference too.

I'm sick of out-of-context literary quotes.

 

It is not entirely destructive to live your life conscious that rape is a reality. It is not destructive to make choices taking that into consideration.

[shamen]

Originally posted by RapeSurvivor

 

The poster she was responding to says to help avoid some situations she chooses to not trust men at all. I was like that for a long time too. I understand how it is to feel that way. Its not something others can fully understand unless they have actually felt it. It works for a while, but at some point a person has to trust or risk making what could be a wonderful relationship, mediocre. Other people can try to imagine how they would feel in a given situation, but its one of those things that can't possibly be fully understood until you've experienced it yourself.

 

It took me a long time to trust again, and I spent a great deal of time second-guessing every decision and choice that I had to make. So many people kept telling me what THEY would do in my situation, and how THEY would have handled it, and how I Should Have prevented it, that I began to doubt every move I made and I trusted no one. They were not trying to be mean, but they did not realize how their talk devalued the rape. How it trivialized the rape.

 

NO ONE can protect themselves 100%. Just because someone is raped does not mean that the victim doesn't know enough to protect themselves, or is irresponsible or careless.

 

I have had a long time to recover from my situation, and yes, I too avoided lots of situations. But again, I've gotten to the point now that I try to trust people, really trust them, to do the right thing. I refuse to let this incident in my life overtake my ability to be a whole person. If I spend my life avoiding possible dicey situations, could I even go to work without fear? Probably not. I'm often there late, after many people leave, someone could just walk into the building, walk up to my office; you get the idea.

 

Dyer:

 

We can not live our lives bridled with this fear around us. Yes, don't walk around the streets late at night drunk, don't go to stranger's hotel rooms or go home with strangers, but the point is still missing here. As your own link points out, most rapes occur with someone we know. If we all go around assuming that all men want to have sex all the time, then we are sort of just excusing their behavior. "Oh, they can't help it, they think with their d***s. Oh, she came to my house. She got in my car. I went to her house and she was dressed in her pajamas. It's her fault." I think that this is what Fayebelle is trying to say, that it's the thinking that all men want to have sex all the time that is part of the reason that so many men get off (no pun intended) in court. It's a societal belief, so somehow we can excuse it.

 

Which again, is where we started, with Capitald's post. Why we are all here in the first place, debating a societal belief that people still hold, as scary as that may be, that somehow rape is the woman's fault. Because she went home, because she got in her car with her husband's friend/ex bf/bf/husband/relative/insert someone here, because she went to her boyfriend's house, because she went to work, because she lived her life. I REFUSE TO LIVE MY LIFE LIKE THIS. Just MHO.

[dyermaker]

Shamen:

 

There is a difference between FEAR and PRUDENCE.

 

I never suggested that anyone live their lives in fear. I suggested that it's NOT censurable if someone wants to make wise choices, yet others seem to disagree, saying, basically: If you don't live recklessly, you're excusing men. I find that train of thought appalling.

 

If we all go around assuming that all men want to have sex all the time, then we are sort of just excusing their behavior.

I think that's ridiculous. An awareness of male sexuality contributes only to informed evaluations of personal conduct, it doesn't magically excuse depraved acts of violence.