Are men guilty until proven innocent?

[M30USA]

I've noticed that when a marriage breaks up there is this unspoken assumption that the man is the bad guy and the woman is the victim. It seems that a man has to always disprove false allegations and rise above a heap of assumptions that are made about him before he can be cleared of the blame for the breakup of the marriage. A woman typically doesn't have to do this. In fact, she can just go along and not have to make efforts to save face. It's only when information comes out (usually accidentally or much later) that she only begins to have doubt cast upon her.

 

I keep hearing it over and over on the news. All the celebrities apparently have dads who are these awful people. You name it...Michael Phelps, Gabby Douglas (the gymnast)...I would really like to find out once and for all what horrible things their fathers did to basically deserve such social shunning.

[Gaprofitt]

I've noticed that when a marriage breaks up there is this unspoken assumption that the man is the bad guy and the woman is the victim. It seems that a man has to always disprove false allegations and rise above a heap of assumptions that are made about him before he can be cleared of the blame for the breakup of the marriage. A woman typically doesn't have to do this. In fact, she can just go along and not have to make efforts to save face. It's only when information comes out (usually accidentally or much later) that she only begins to have doubt cast upon her.

 

I keep hearing it over and over on the news. All the celebrities apparently have dads who are these awful people. You name it...Michael Phelps, Gabby Douglas (the gymnast)...I would really like to find out once and for all what horrible things their fathers did to basically deserve such social shunning.

 

 

I completely felt like the bad guy when she left, after all she has done to me I'm not so sure anymore. She's done stuff to me since she has left I wouldn't do to someone I hated, much less someone I loved for 12 years. I still feel bad about things I've done but I know i've already eliminated a lot of my mistakes I would never do in future relationships or even our relationship if we somehow magically get back together. I've learned it's about looking in the mirror and getting help to become a better person, I've done that and that's all I can do and continue to do.

 

Greg

[LadyGrey]

I've noticed that when a marriage breaks up there is this unspoken assumption that the man is the bad guy and the woman is the victim. It seems that a man has to always disprove false allegations and rise above a heap of assumptions that are made about him before he can be cleared of the blame for the breakup of the marriage. A woman typically doesn't have to do this. In fact, she can just go along and not have to make efforts to save face. It's only when information comes out (usually accidentally or much later) that she only begins to have doubt cast upon her.

 

I keep hearing it over and over on the news. All the celebrities apparently have dads who are these awful people. You name it...Michael Phelps, Gabby Douglas (the gymnast)...I would really like to find out once and for all what horrible things their fathers did to basically deserve such social shunning.

 

I wonder how you know what other people's "unspoken assumptions" are? Are you inside other people's heads, do you know their thoughts?

 

I understand you are going through a difficult divorce but you seem to have an issue with women.

[SuperGeek]

I completely agree with you and it is getting worse. Men are born guilty the first day they start breathing air. We are assumed to be violent, perverts, and a plethora of many other things.

 

Sexual harassment training in a corporate environment is really meant for the male, not the female, though they can't legally say that. An anecdotal example going on right now in my curent office: The admin assistant to a high up powerful VP is screwing two male coworkers in the office. The high ups know she does it and gets away with it. She also wears the most provactive/slutty attire to work and does not get repremanded for it.

 

If guys so much as look at her wrong she could get them fired. I just stay on her good side (platonic) as much as possible and when she walks by I do not stare at all (mostly look at the floor).

 

I went on a bit of a tangent there ,but men really are assumed to be horrible until proven guilty. Meanwhile, women can do a lot and get away with a lot and nobody will even think to question them until proof has been shown.

 

i'm a bitter ******* now due to getting royally screwed over by females so disclaimer here.

 

SuperGeek

[JD1977]

You talking two WAY different issues my friend! First you started talking about husband verses wife in a BU/D; then you jumped to men being blamed for being a bad dad! Becareful to assume they go together.

[Mme. Chaucer]

You talking two WAY different issues my friend! First you started talking about husband verses wife in a BU/D; then you jumped to men being blamed for being a bad dad! Becareful to assume they go together.

 

NO KIDDING!

 

Gabby Douglas and Michael Phelps are entitled to her own opinion of their fathers. If their experiences of their fathers were negative, then they are free to speak about it. Do you think that fathers and men in general "deserve" some kind of protective shield just because they happen to be men?

[Radu]

It is like this, but not to the extent one imagines.

 

In the past [but also present] here, men were primarily blamed for the dissolution of marriages, regardless of who was behind the divorce.

In fact, even today when ppl hear a couple is getting divorced here, generally the follow-up question is 'what did he do ?'.

--

 

In the last 2yrs, i know of 4 couples that divorced.

In 3 of them, the women initiated the divorce, and the man didn't want it ... they still feel like they have failed the marriage somehow.

In the 4th, the man initiated and the woman feels like she failed the marriage somehow.

 

In those 3 cases i mentioned above where the woman decided to divorce unilaterally, she also forced the blame on the man by taking charge of the support network the couple had and turning it against him.

In the 4th case, the woman [who was wronged in my opinion], had the support network on her side ... he did try to turn it against her.

 

I suspect that when a divorce is unilateral, generally the party who didn't want it feels like they failed the marriage somehow [we are talking of normal ppl, not basket cases] and in a way accepts the blame.

[Greznog]

Well first of all they made the mother of all bad decisions, getting married post 1950's.

 

There's nothing in marriage for men, I'd like to hear a single benefit that doesn't involve a tax benefit which will be negated entirely once you have to send her cash money payments in the form of alimony.

[soccerrprp]

I completely agree with you and it is getting worse. Men are born guilty the first day they start breathing air. We are assumed to be violent, perverts, and a plethora of many other things.

 

Sexual harassment training in a corporate environment is really meant for the male, not the female, though they can't legally say that. An anecdotal example going on right now in my curent office: The admin assistant to a high up powerful VP is screwing two male coworkers in the office. The high ups know she does it and gets away with it. She also wears the most provactive/slutty attire to work and does not get repremanded for it.

 

If guys so much as look at her wrong she could get them fired. I just stay on her good side (platonic) as much as possible and when she walks by I do not stare at all (mostly look at the floor).

 

I went on a bit of a tangent there ,but men really are assumed to be horrible until proven guilty. Meanwhile, women can do a lot and get away with a lot and nobody will even think to question them until proof has been shown.

 

i'm a bitter ******* now due to getting royally screwed over by females so disclaimer here.

 

SuperGeek

 

I like much of what you say here, but the truth of the matter is that these assumptions did not come from a vacuum. Men have an eternal history of being brutes, violent, patronizing, sexists, etc. So, you should not be completely surprised that this tendency to demonize men occurs. But, it has certainly become a negative to be male in our society. I believe the biggest difference between our society, mostly American, western, is that laws and societal stigma is public and institutionalized. Men no longer hold ALL the power to minimize, subjugate women, etc. so, it stings...

 

As per divorces and who is to blame, well, I know very few breakups that wasn't a result of some bone-head thing the guy did. Statistically, it appears the male gender is the one with the overall commitment issues in LTR.

 

But, I hear you. It's tough dating when every girl thinks you're going to be like the previous 5 guys that dumped her....and annoying. But, that's my less then scientific point, a lot more guys play around and do the male gender a disservice than one would like...

[Woggle]

It's true. My ex had to try to shoot at my current wife and I for people to finally believe that I wasn't the bad guy. A few people actually apologized to me.

[soccerrprp]

It is like this, but not to the extent one imagines.

 

In the past [but also present] here, men were primarily blamed for the dissolution of marriages, regardless of who was behind the divorce.

In fact, even today when ppl hear a couple is getting divorced here, generally the follow-up question is 'what did he do ?'.

--

 

In the last 2yrs, i know of 4 couples that divorced.

In 3 of them, the women initiated the divorce, and the man didn't want it ... they still feel like they have failed the marriage somehow.

In the 4th, the man initiated and the woman feels like she failed the marriage somehow.

 

In those 3 cases i mentioned above where the woman decided to divorce unilaterally, she also forced the blame on the man by taking charge of the support network the couple had and turning it against him.

In the 4th case, the woman [who was wronged in my opinion], had the support network on her side ... he did try to turn it against her.

 

I suspect that when a divorce is unilateral, generally the party who didn't want it feels like they failed the marriage somehow [we are talking of normal ppl, not basket cases] and in a way accepts the blame.

 

Interesting, but I hope that you are not suggesting (correct me if i'm wrong) that the one who didn't initiate divorce was innocent? I know two friends (female) who finally gave their exes a divorce after battling and harping for too long how they (men) wanted them. When the ladies finally, defeated, insisted on the divorce, as requested numerous times in the past by ex-hubbies, the guys were "shocked."

 

Oh, btw, in both these cases, the guys were jack-wagons and were certainly responsible for the demise of the marriages.

[todreaminblue]

I've noticed that when a marriage breaks up there is this unspoken assumption that the man is the bad guy and the woman is the victim. It seems that a man has to always disprove false allegations and rise above a heap of assumptions that are made about him before he can be cleared of the blame for the breakup of the marriage. A woman typically doesn't have to do this. In fact, she can just go along and not have to make efforts to save face. It's only when information comes out (usually accidentally or much later) that she only begins to have doubt cast upon her.

 

I keep hearing it over and over on the news. All the celebrities apparently have dads who are these awful people. You name it...Michael Phelps, Gabby Douglas (the gymnast)...I would really like to find out once and for all what horrible things their fathers did to basically deserve such social shunning.

 

 

the only people who know the truth are the people involved everybody else is a personal bias situation and reaction.......my ex tells everyone he f.....d up........doesnt help anything who knows what the relationship broke up over and you should never spread rumors truth is the only solution and hold back on that truth to a need to know basis that would include future partners should hear the full story from both perspectives..........deb

[CatalinaSailor]

Overall it seems even from these posts from both men and women that men are generally the problem. Yes, we are guilty until proven innocent. Historically in society, men were the slave holders, the soldiers, most violent crimes are committed by men, most wall street convictions are men, ,our legislatures are predominately men and when a cop is seen beating a perp on TV it is generally a male cop doing it. Men are the rapists and in most cases the child abusers. So, it is very easy to blame men for relationships gone bad. Society has colored us that way so we are naturally the bad guys when a marriage falls apart long before the facts are discovered.

 

If we as men complain about the negative social portrayal of men we somehow are instantly seen as embracing all the evil ever done by men and defending all men's crimes. It is not that way. I detest rapist and child abusers and claim no share in any evil done by men. I take responsibility for what I have done and defend my honor because I am who I am and will never be who society wants me to be. I am a man and I am proud to be one. In fact, I am big enough to withstand the bias and guilt association because I am a man and not a victim. I know, it is probably the wrong stand to take.

[Greznog]

Overall it seems even from these posts from both men and women that men are generally the problem. Yes, we are guilty until proven innocent. Historically in society, men were the slave holders, the soldiers, most violent crimes are committed by men, most wall street convictions are men, ,our legislatures are predominately men and when a cop is seen beating a perp on TV it is generally a male cop doing it. Men are the rapists and in most cases the child abusers. So, it is very easy to blame men for relationships gone bad. Society has colored us that way so we are naturally the bad guys when a marriage falls apart long before the facts are discovered.

 

If we as men complain about the negative social portrayal of men we somehow are instantly seen as embracing all the evil ever done by men and defending all men's crimes. It is not that way. I detest rapist and child abusers and claim no share in any evil done by men. I take responsibility for what I have done and defend my honor because I am who I am and will never be who society wants me to be. I am a man and I am proud to be one. In fact, I am big enough to withstand the bias and guilt association because I am a man and not a victim. I know, it is probably the wrong stand to take.

 

That's what women would like you to believe.

 

 

In analyzing the victim data by relationship to the perpetrator, the 2010 data found that approximately one-half (53.6%) of child abuse and neglect perpetrators were women and slightly more than 45 percent (45.2%) were men. An estimated 84% (84.2) of unique perpetrators were between the ages of 20 and 49 years. (See Chapter 3: Children for more information.)

[CatalinaSailor]

Those are amazing stats - I did not know. Remember, however, perception is reality and the perception in our culture is men are the Homer SImpsons, Family Guy, Al Bundy, the fools on Big Bang Theory, Hangover and the rest of the negative media portrayal of men. If the question is are men guilty until proven innocent? The answer is yes even if the facts of the previous post distinctly say otherwise. Connecting the dots to it being our fault is easy and often sporting (Lacrosse fiasco for example). But as I said, it goes with the territory being a man. As long as men remain men and don't succumb to being feminized in the thinking as so many today have we will remain a viable species. To be sure, watch the replies to this post. Because I am being proud of being a man, the likelihood of being perceived as sexist is high.

[worldgonewrong]

This is a dodgy question to answer, but let me answer it this way:

 

Men are often put in the position of having to explain themselves,

while women often can skirt having to explain themselves.

[M30USA]

This is a dodgy question to answer, but let me answer it this way:

 

Men are often put in the position of having to explain themselves,

while women often can skirt having to explain themselves.

 

Yep, well said.

[carhill]

The best defense is a strong and aggressive offense. Wars have been won that way.

 

IMO, the best thing a man can do is learn from women. There's no indignity in learning.

 

Specifically, learning how to network and manipulate public sentiment and opinion. It works.

[Radu]

Interesting, but I hope that you are not suggesting (correct me if i'm wrong) that the one who didn't initiate divorce was innocent? I know two friends (female) who finally gave their exes a divorce after battling and harping for too long how they (men) wanted them. When the ladies finally, defeated, insisted on the divorce, as requested numerous times in the past by ex-hubbies, the guys were "shocked."

 

Oh, btw, in both these cases, the guys were jack-wagons and were certainly responsible for the demise of the marriages.

 

Those 2 guys were manipulative, trying to use the threat of the A-bomb that is 'Divorce' to have things go their way.

Tbh, it's good that they divorced them.

 

In those cases :

- woman 1 divorced because of mommy's influence, they both had major problems but basically she had her expensive fantasy wedding and that's that.

The guy [and me] also suspects that she has an affair or mommy dearest found her a richer guy.

- woman 2 divorced when her BPD ways of control failed ... ironically she is a psychologist.

She tried to take him to the cleaners, hired a very good lawyer.

They were married for 9yrs, but she was very good at manipulating, she got him to move everything her mom owned on their names, and their lawyer managed to get 65% of the assets [legal trick ... pretty good too], child support and alimony [she did not work a day in her life].

The guy allowed himself to be manipulated because he also came from a broken home and did not have a good rolemodel of a marriage.

- woman 3 divorced because of another guy.

One morning gave my friend the speach of 'i love you but i'm not in love with you', asked for an amicable divorce through a notary public [possible here], swore she had no-one.

She was engaged just weeks afterwards.

Guy just let her go.

His luck, he has 2 older sisters, one of which is a major gold-digger [she said this to him] but with family loyalty ... they basically translated the bull**** to him.

- in the 4th case, the guy divorced her because she found another woman.

Tried to paint it bad, turn their friends against her.

Didn't work, because she had a sterling reputation in the group and he had issues in his early 20's.

She is basically one of those rare girls that is not afraid to say what is on her mind, i hope she finds someone good.

[Radu]

The best defense is a strong and aggressive offense. Wars have been won that way.

 

IMO, the best thing a man can do is learn from women. There's no indignity in learning.

 

Specifically, learning how to network and manipulate public sentiment and opinion. It works.

 

I honestly believe this can help you a lot in life [trying to learn it] as long as you don't apply it on your spouse.

[fucpcg]

/\ bull $hit. If you need to run offense, if you need people to know you weren't the bad guy, then you probably were.

 

When my ex broke up with me, she accused me of horrible things, soo horrible I was left wondering who I was, what kind of person I was, what kind of boyfriend I was. The ex crucified me, and her friends lit the cross with torches. My friends, they remained friendly to the ex, laughed at her stories however when she tried to dump on them, and their response to me was along the lines of "everyone knows what kind of person you are, there is no need to defend yourself to us, and everyone who sees your ex takes her with a grain of salt". They also said things to me like "while she is painting the town with the horror stories of you, we have yet to hear you say one negative thing about her to anybody. She is showing her (lack of) character, while you are boldly displaying yours."

 

People who truly try to live good lives, they don't need to run an offense, the people around them already know what to believe.

[fucpcg]

I completely felt like the bad guy when she left, after all she has done to me I'm not so sure anymore. She's done stuff to me since she has left I wouldn't do to someone I hated, much less someone I loved for 12 years. I still feel bad about things I've done but I know i've already eliminated a lot of my mistakes I would never do in future relationships or even our relationship if we somehow magically get back together. I've learned it's about looking in the mirror and getting help to become a better person, I've done that and that's all I can do and continue to do.

 

Greg

 

We went thru the same thing Greg, from how the breakup went down to our responses. I got plenty wrong. She may have acted like the Wicked Witch after the breakup, but that didn't make me guilt free. I have learned a lot from that relationship, a lot of things that have made me a much better man. For that result of the breakup, I am glad.

[M30USA]

The best defense is a strong and aggressive offense. Wars have been won that way.

 

IMO, the best thing a man can do is learn from women. There's no indignity in learning.

 

Specifically, learning how to network and manipulate public sentiment and opinion. It works.

 

Carhill, you have the wisdom of a luminaire, dude.

 

I've realized similar things. In this divorce process, I've realized to play by their own rules: namely, there is no objective truth but only public opinion. You are what people say you are. It's pathetic, but that's the mentality we are up against.

[carhill]

I'll offer a suggestion. Try to look at it as perspective. She has her perspective and you have yours. Sell your perspective. The best/most effective salesperson wins

 

ETA, skill at eliciting a strong and sympathetic emotional response is key to 'selling' this. The stronger the 'like' and feeling that the person they 'like' was 'wronged', the more powerful and pervasive the reception of the perspective can be. Men tend to be logical and direct, which are positive traits, but generally work poorly in the area of convincing others to unilaterally adhere to and support their perspective. That comes from emotion. Gotta stir that emotion. That's been my experience anyway.

Edited August 28, 2012 by carhill
Added more.

[shiftman]

I remember an old syaing that goes somethinglike this:

 

"Trying to defend yourself is a waste of time. Your friends don't need the explanation, and your enemies won't believe it anyway.