How long until the plague of religion goes away?

[pie2]

When it comes to so-called "Christians" and devot so-and-so? I love this!

 

Why Can't I Own a Canadian?

 

Of course the letter is pretty outrageous, and can get a laugh.

 

But Gunny, your one example of "Christian" (well, religious probably, but you prefaced by stating "Christian") intolerance is about a Jewish lady who made a comment maybe 15 years ago, and then went on to apologize and completely change her attitude about the LGBT community. I'd say that she demonstrates tolerance much more than someone who continues to blame her for something she no longer thinks/feels, and for which she has already paid the price.

 

And just to clarify, Christian believers no longer abide by Mosaic (Old Testament) law, as Christ came to break us free from "religious" tradition.

Edited October 21, 2012 by pie2

[Gunny376]

A war they could not fight because their navy was all but wiped out. It's odd that you talk about the cost of invasion in response to a statement claiming that invasion was not even necessary.

 

Round and round and round we go, where we stop, nobody knows.

 

You'll forgive me QuickJoe if I won't continue this discussion with you (or anyone else about WWII) simply because it is off topic to the inital thread. And I was the first to initate such, and so I will be the first to attempt to get it back on topic. No offense.

[Eve]

Thanks for stating your reasons instead of just hurling insults. Oh, wait...

 

 

Hah, I can see that concession was forced through gritted teeth. Can't wait to hear your

 

Oh wonderful, I'm going to get called on yet another opinion I don't hold and have never expressed. This is going to be hilarious.

 

Maybe I should make

/strawman.jpg'>this

my avatar.

 

No, I was not apologising through gritted teeth. I don't mind apologising - I am even glad to where there is reason! I partly turned from my initial thoughts that you were being foolish because of the further context you showed; I thought the fact that Hitler believed in a god (he is known for occult practices) was enough for you to concretely call him out as a person with a recognised faith.

 

... but yeah, I do hold that an underlying theme of yours still has elements of the same issue; religion is seen as something which is the cause of societal/individual problems.

 

My issue is that people often take many issues to religious proportions, all the time, and never even touch upon 'God'.. strangely enough, even when they consider themselves religious. I suppose that is what I muse upon mostly in life - the junction of when something is psychologically based and when something is supernaturally based.

 

Overall, my musing is based on what I do for a living and seeing that people don't change very often and continue to lead unfulfilled lives when their internal script does not have God at the centre. As such I am always interested in the origins of a persons argument as this usually says everything about their position. Hence my post to Bethebutterfly.

 

Anyway, this post more than likely means nothing but I wanted to respond mainly because I said I would, not really to try to out you or anything.

 

SO, all in all, at the end of the day I don't believe we are really talking about God in the first place.

 

Take care,

Eve x

[StEwPiD_MoNkEy]

I am not super religious but atheist societies have caused just as much misery. Look at China and the Soviet Union. People just need to accept the fact that others might have different beliefs than they do.

 

 

Not true. Actually places like China or recovering from some form of religion. It use to be taught that the Emporer as a god. Same with Japan. Now they are much more secular, their country if florishing. There are still social issues when mass amounts of people live together, but those are growing pains. The Soviet Union, even the USSR are still mostly Orthadox Catholic. They just don't discuss is as much as we do. Most Russians still get a birth name and a church name.

[StEwPiD_MoNkEy]

When taken out of context, that chapter does look and sound pretty dang awful. I won't deny that. However, you have to go back to Numbers 25 to understand why God would order such a thing.

 

The Midianites and the Moabites were trying to corrupt the Israelites, plying them with sex and trying to get them to foresake their one God, in favour of their false Gods. Worshipping false idols is a big no-no in God's book.

 

Does that make it any less awful? No, but let's be honest, wars such as world war two were started over much less, and created more bloodshed, and turmoil. Hitler had no grounds for killing all of those Jews other than pure hate. And invading other countries? Well, that was just because he was a meglomaniac, who desperately sought power and world domination. God ordered a war against people who were sinning against him, corrupting and destroying his children, and worshipping false idols. He's God, He gets to decide what's just, and what isn't.

 

In that link mercy posted, the writer made a good comment about how sometimes the only way to solve something is to do something pretty atrocious. If there was another way, don't you think God would have found it? It's like Hiroshima and Nagasaki (again, borrowed from the link ) those were absolute atrocities on humanity, committed by the US. Was there another way that would have ended the war? Probably not. So if man can call something just and necessary, why can't God?

 

That's a brief point (was it brief? ) that I wanted to make. It's not well-made but I hope you catch my drift.

 

 

So may I ask, in what context is rape, murder, slavery and geonicide [sic], is acceptable. Also, Hitler was convinced that is was his religious duty to kill jews. He was doing it for god, or so he said.

[Eve]

Not true. Actually places like China or recovering from some form of religion. It use to be taught that the Emporer as a god. Same with Japan. Now they are much more secular, their country if florishing. There are still social issues when mass amounts of people live together, but those are growing pains. The Soviet Union, even the USSR are still mostly Orthadox Catholic. They just don't discuss is as much as we do. Most Russians still get a birth name and a church name.

 

BBC News - Christians in China: Is the country in spiritual crisis?

 

I have been following the rise of Christianity in China for a while. The Bible is in great demand there due to the massive numbers of people turning to God, primarily due to the emptiness of captialism.

 

The above article was written last year and things have grown yet more since. I know this because one of my interests is a charity which provides Bibles to China.

 

Do you have different information to this?

 

Take care,

Eve x

[StEwPiD_MoNkEy]

In all honesty, NOTHING anyone says will get through to you, and that means all of this is basically pointless. You think the way you think (you're entitled to that) and it doesn't matter how valid, how well-thought out The Final Words (and they are well-thought out) points are, because you're just going to discredit them, but providing zero evidence of your own.

 

I could, and so could others provide plenty of pieces of Scripture (put into context as well) that defines a loving God, and a God that wants peace, but if you want to know about that, you can look it up yourself.

 

People are wasting their time in this discussion because you don't take anyone's points into consideration (that's not to say that you have to agree with them) but simply discrediting valid points based on the fact that you don't believe/agree is unreasonable.

 

I'm not disagreeing that genocide is bad. Of course, it is. Whichever way you cut it.The atom bomb was bad, no matter the justifications for it, but was it necessary? Yes. Just because something is bad, does not mean it is not just or necessary. Are we to assume that we have a monopoly on what is just (just does not mean good, just so you know) and God doesn't? After all, a lot of people would agree that the death penalty is not good, but it is just.

 

 

So are you suggesting that in order to be just, it must therefore be good for everyone? People who do bad things should not be punished accordingly? In order to stop the spread of their infection, and their corruption, God ordered them to destroy them. Sometimes, an evil serves a greater purpose, a greater good. Let's not be nambie-pambies about this. It was what it was, God ordered the destruction to serve a greater good.

 

Similarly, if the world had sat back and let the Germans have their way in WW2, simply because they don't want to step in and cause bloodshed, and be nambie-pambies, the world would be a very different place today, I've no doubt about that. If people can look at a string of events taking place around Germany, and into Austria, France, Poland etc, and say "let's fight against that, and do the right thing," why can't God? So it's OK to go to war, and cause bloodshed when we decide it's right, but not when God does?

 

I'm confused as to what you would expect God to order in these circumstances. He wasn't requesting they slaughter innocent people. He was trying to stop the spread of infection, and corruption. Just like we were trying to stop the spread of Nazism in WW2. No difference, except who ordered it.

 

 

Harmful,

I think the point was that an omniscient and omnipotent being could have done better than annhilating the other tribes. Make the disease impotent etc. but murder is a bit much. Also, you cannot compare humans to a divine personage. We are finite. According to your beliefs your god is infinite and posses powers we never will. Apples and oranges. So I will agree with strength and disagree with you. There is no context where an all everything being has to use mundane methods of accomplishing it's goals. Does not make it right.

[AlexC]

I completely agree that it's the people!!!!!!!!

I can safely say (I have many many religious friends) that NO WHERE AT ALL in the Bible/Koran tells people to blow things up in the name of God, kill others, enforce beliefs, cause war etc etc

In fact, the bible says that if someone slaps you on the cheek, turn your face so he can slap you on the other one.

In the Koran it says to fight to defend yourself, and spread the name of Islam, but not by force (ie war)

People, such as the Taliban and Zionists, are EXTREMISTS. They do their INTERPRETATION (which is not the right one) of a religion. For example, Islam (and Christianity and Judaism as far as I'm aware) do not permit homosexuals, but it does NOT state that you go around killing them all! In fact, in a wise and sensible part of the Koran, and I quote, it says, "You have your religion (beliefs) and I have mine" ie you do what you want and I'll do what I want.

Answer me this: What kind of all loving and powerful God who created religion would allow and want mass murder of innocent people? Muslims died in the 9/11 you know.

And Zionists (the ones in Gaza) go under the name "Jew". OH please! Like anyone would believe that Jews want to go around killing innocent people. It's like the Holocaust all over again in Gaza, and I'm pretty sure no Jew would want that to happen again. No normal, sane person would want that.

And to answer your question directly: Religion would not, and should not, ever leave us. It is the free will of humans that make religion look bad, not the other way round, so get over yourself and accept that others will have different views from you.

Oh, and here's pascals wager:

God - Atheist = Hell Theist = Heaven

No God - Atheist = Nothing Theist = Nothing.

I'd rather believe in God, even if its for one of those 'Just in case' things.

[AlexC]

So may I ask, in what context is rape, murder, slavery and geonicide [sic], is acceptable. Also, Hitler was convinced that is was his religious duty to kill jews. He was doing it for god, or so he said.

 

Yeah well, he was wrong.

God doesn't want that. If he did he would do it himself - he has the power to, and has in times of very very very very very very old (eg the people of Aad) wiped out tribes.

Hitler was a jerk who tried to come up with an excuse to kill Jews. Deal with.

[skydiveaddict]

Pascal's Wager is just an epic fail.

 

Not for those of us with no faith left. It's the only alternative.

 

Pascal's Wager for me, promotes dishonesty. It's this idea of "I'll go through the motions in case anyone's watching," but won't an omniscient god see through it?

 

Probably, but like I said, for someone like me, what's the alternative?

 

If your basis for belief is "just in case, and I might get rewarded if I act it out well enough" then why shouldn't he still send you to hell?

 

He probably will. Still though, if someone completely lacks faith, it's the best bet regardless.

[strongnrelaxed]

I promised I would not come back on this forum again because of the horrid responses to the OP. But I just checked back in after a while away and I am so pleased to see people rationally and reasonably debating the topic.

 

Perhaps I should stay away for good!

 

At least the discussion is happening and rationality and reason are on display. Thanks to all for addressing the OP in such an enlightened and reasonable way.

 

My faith in humanity is temporarily restored.

[MissBee]

Religion (all religion - I did not intend to single out Christianity) is evil. Period.

 

There are many brilliant people who have put this myth to bed, and I recommend that you consider checking them out. Before you do that though, please read your Bible/Koran/Torah first. THEN check out people like Christopher Hitchens, Christina Rad, and Richard Dawkins. Once you're done with that, you may have a new perspective.

 

I should have been more clear in my initial critique. My number one reason for coming to this conclusion is that religion asks us as humans to abandon our reason. The very thing that separates humans from animals is human reason. In order to have faith, one MUST abandon reason, because none of the Abrahamic religions make reasonable sense.

Once you convince people that there is an invisible man in the sky who watches over us and knows our thoughts and is all powerful and all knowing and makes magic things happen capriciously and in "mysterious ways" then you have broken the very thing that makes us human.

 

Then we wonder why we have wars, people starve, rape, murder, torture etc.

 

For the first time in history we can say these things without being murdered for it (I hope!).

 

So more and more we are going to push back against this plague. I just hope it does not take another two millennia to undo the damage to human consciousness that it took to break it.

 

And what is this thing that makes us human?

 

It seems religion is a purely human invention as animals do not have religion.

 

Therefore one unique characteristic of human beings is the formation of belief systems, secular or dependent upon divinities and the forming of institutions.

[M30USA]

What makes you think we're human in any sense of the definition?

 

The only difference between us and apes is a minor alteration in pack mentality and the necessity to answer the question "why?"

 

Actually, if a person has not been "born of the Spirit" and transformed into a b'nai Elohim (a son of God), he/she is very much still part of the animal kindgom.

[M30USA]

When exploitation and death leaves our species...

 

How will death leave our species?

[fortyninethousand322]

How will death leave our species?

 

Cryogenics, gene therapy and nano technology. Might make humans live forever.

[M30USA]

Cryogenics, gene therapy and nano technology. Might make humans live forever.

 

There is a verse in Revelation pertaining to the end times tribulation which says:

 

"And in those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, and death flees from them." (Rev 9:6)

 

I've always wondered if this supports the idea that men will eventually discover how to become quasi-immortal. A bit of a far fetch, I admit, but the above verse really is hard to comprehend in a "rational" way.

[pie2]

Actually, if a person has not been "born of the Spirit" and transformed into a b'nai Elohim (a son of God), he/she is very much still part of the animal kindgom.

 

? ?

[skydiveaddict]

? ?

 

It's just another attempt reference the Bible to scientology: “sons of God”. (B’nai Elohim) took wives of the “daughters of men,” which gave birth to the “Nephilim.” (Genesis 6).

 

He's just trying to twist the book of Genisis to mean that these “sons of God” were aliens from another planet.

Edited December 12, 2012 by skydiveaddict

[M30USA]

Pie2, of all people why are you confused by this?

 

All humans, in the natural, are not children or sons of God--but rather sons of Adam. This is because Adam represents living in the "flesh", which Paul says cannot please God.

 

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12, 13 ESV)

 

Why the confusion about such a basic aspect of Christian theology?

[M30USA]

I think you're sorely mistaken. In the vanity of this statement, presuming as you are that some transcendence takes hold over people if they agree to bend the knee to your dictator of choice, you're forgetting we ARE a part of the animal kingdom, regardless of what personal narcissism you choose to adhere with.

 

I'm not any more mistaken than the Bible because that's exactly where I received this view.

[M30USA]

It's just another attempt reference the Bible to scientology: “sons of God”. (B’nai Elohim) took wives of the “daughters of men,” which gave birth to the “Nephilim.” (Genesis 6).

 

He's just trying to twist the book of Genisis to mean that these “sons of God” were aliens from another planet.

 

Incorrect. I'm saying that God literally creates within us a new spiritual being and life. We are a new creation. The Genesis 6 topic is separate from this. A "son of God" is ANY direct creation of God--as opposed to secondary creations which we were born as (ie, sons of Adam). Again, this is all basic Christian theology known by every early Church father and even by Jewish rabbis to this very day. Unfortunately modern Christianity is largely ignorant to these basics.

[M30USA]

A holy book is not fact.

 

If it is, why give us a book that pushes us to murder people for witch craft, a wholly tenebrous and illusory crime? Why give us a book that engenders racism and sexism? Why give us a book that admonishes responsibility of the one, and shells it onto god?

 

This is a forum about "religious" or "spiritual" BELIEFS. Your obsession with proof and evidence is something I don't care to address here.

[M30USA]

That's laughable.

 

So, the largest of questions in human history is beneath your support?

 

Musing.

 

No, just that it's not the subject of this thread. Have you ever been in court and a lawyer tries to bring up a subject not relevant to the hearing? Even if its true, it gets overruled. Start another thread about "proof for religion" and I may discuss with you there. Adios.

[pie2]

Actually, if a person has not been "born of the Spirit" and transformed into a b'nai Elohim (a son of God), he/she is very much still part of the animal kindgom.

 

I just thought it was like this:

 

Animals

Humans (have souls)

Christian believers (have souls and are born of the spirit)

 

I guess 'animal kingdom' seemed a bit general...?

[Crippling Pain]

I read about 4 pages of Just people doing exactly how I thought they would act. Religious people take things way to personally and atheists act like they are above them. However this being said nobody is in fact above anyone and people need to learn to chill, but I'd like to add my opinion in this thread if I may my only hope is that if someone disagrees let's have a civil discussion with your mind open. This is what I noticed from tw comments most people don't want to thin. About it they bolt their minds shut and won't even think about it. So I will start with what I believe.

 

I believe that god is a made up thing intended to take control of people. This can be seen by the catholic way of "faith" they have priests that act like the right hand of god and people have to go to them to confess their sins!? For one thing Jesus has taken away are sins ( if I'm wrong stop me) and two is in the bible it says basically all u need to do is open up your heart and accept god and u can talk to him for your sins and he can obsolve u. You dont need no idiot priest acting like god to do this. This is just another way for the catholic church to rule over people. Not to mention during the mass or whatever it's called it feels like brain wash. The bishop makes people bow down before him and says things and the last thing people say is peace be with u bishop... This sounds more like a cult than Christianity. Also all the things the catholic church has done to people yet people still worship this faith!? They have taken the bible and not given it to the public so they could control the public through the bible till one man stepped up and stole a bible and printed it so that the public can read it and realize what the catcholics were doing yet they still are in this religion!? The bible states that the devil can not posses anyone or his demons so I ask u how can their be exorcisms? One other piece of evidence of how Catholics and Christianity are horrible are the "crusades". Christianity is a horrible thing because when people get to worshiping it they get blinded by truth and reality. So whn someone tries showing them truth and reality they shut it down or create such a ruckus it turns into a war!! So I ask people to think carefully and only take the bible as a book of fairy tales like Disney movies for good morale support that's it it us not mention to be taken literally. We as human beings fear death and "Christianity" is are get out of jail free card but in doing so we lose are freewill.

 

God is a homophob I get that but he apparently forgot that gay people can't help that they are gay. Scientific studies have shown that a gay persona brain clusters are different depending on gender which in turn makes them attracted to the same sex. However god would have us burn these gay witches at the stake! And don't give me that **** about how god is just and loving that's utter bull**** the man is a cruel and vengeful god people forget this all the time. Also "circumcision" that is one of the worst things u can do to a baby boy. Most people don't realize it but when that is cut from the baby it actually goes into Neroleptic shock for several days. Also doing this act of evil can result in a hairy penuis and no sex drive (Aka can't get it up) also a uncircumcised penis feels better to the woman I guess god didn't care much fir women. The bible didn't reference women unless they were pregnant or a whore... Curious isn't it it's mostly just men... But I understand the bible can't be wrong! Never, I mean why would a god so great punish people like that? Must be humanity... And it is humanity because humanity is dumb enough to Do these things! No god would do these things the bible is made from humans not a diety. When it comes down to it we are the result of are own stupidity.

 

I ask that people go above and beyond religion and see the truth of this. This is nothing but "a great lie" that's all it is weas people must rise above this and work together but we can not do that with religion because it has broken up man different people and cause much pain all in the name of god. most wars are fought because of religion... The second is politics... I'm sorry but I can not believe in a god who would do these things and create so much evil it's more like worshiping Satan maybe Satan wrote the bible and threw god out of heaven? That would explain a lot more about Christianity. All in all it's all hocus-pocus it's a Disney story rated R all it is.

 

Thank you for your time and reading this sorry if I seemed a little heated it's just ignorance needs to be fought and the truth will set people free and once that day comes the world will be at peace (I hope).