xMW wants to be with me !

[Michael Johnson]

So that kid's stability is on East now?

 

What about parents actually taking accountability for their children and what their actions do to those kids?

 

What does that have to do with East still talking to a married woman?

 

What about the father that knew his wife is being shady, but didn't dump her ass - at least guaranteeing that the kid gets at least 1/2 her custody with a sane person with a backbone.

 

Do you know the reason why he didn't "dump her ass?" If so do tell.

 

What about the conniving mother that needs to work her issues out and either fully commit to her family or make a break from her husband and concentrate on raising her child.

 

East isn't trying to play daddy and confuse this girl.

Also, if it wasn't East, it would be some other guy (sorry East, but its true).

 

Fact of the matter is, she's not here to give her side of the story and so far, East is still in contact thus continuing affair. We can speculate on what she should and should not do, but East is the only one telling the story here so that's irrelevant.

 

East isn't involved with this woman anymore, the A has been over and while his NC isn't the version you're approving of, the truth is he's not interfering in that woman's life, she's the one breaking NC.

 

If East is consistently creating threads and updating us with the "small talks" he's having with this woman, along with ranting full-force about her, then the affair is by definition still ongoing. So it's not a question of who's definition of NC we should approve of or not.

 

I do agree that East should have complete NC with her, but to actually imply that his involvement is what's going to take away that kid's stability and pretty much screw her up is totally unfair, that's on her parents.

 

If she's still talking to her affair partner and telling him how she "loves" him and wants to be with him, with or without her husband's knowledge, then yes it is being neglectful to the kid's needs.

[TigerCub]

What does that have to do with East still talking to a married woman?

Well if you actually read what I was replying to, you might understand my response.

The person I was replying to was implying that East is the one that needs to consider the kid of the MW and talking about how that kid needs stability, my response was to that.

 

And yes, I still stand by my reply that the parents of that kid are the ones responsible for its stability and well being.

 

Do you know the reason why he didn't "dump her ass?" If so do tell.

Did I claim to know the reason?

 

All I know is that he chose no to dump her. (and considering that she's still at it years later - its kind of proving to be a not so smart choice, hey! but that's just by my evaluation, you and him and others might think it was a fantastic way to deal - and if so, fine, whatever works)

 

If I could take a guess its because he loves her and will let her use and humiliate him and still call it love, and maybe he will even say that he's staying with her "for the kid" which may most likely end up putting that same kid more in a situation to get ****ed up than if he had the balls to leave the woman that's so dysfunctional and a terrible example of what relationships (healthy ones at least) should be like.

 

but again...that's just a guess, no insider info

 

Fact of the matter is, she's not here to give her side of the story and so far, East is still in contact thus continuing affair. We can speculate on what she should and should not do, but East is the only one telling the story here so that's irrelevant.

 

If East is consistently creating threads and updating us with the "small talks" he's having with this woman, along with ranting full-force about her, then the affair is by definition still ongoing. So it's not a question of who's definition of NC we should approve of or not.

 

and?....

 

 

If she's still talking to her affair partner and telling him how she "loves" him and wants to be with him, with or without her husband's knowledge, then yes it is being neglectful to the kid's needs.

 

Yeah fine, but that's her responsibility and the father's not East's.

 

Or are you suggesting that East should take all responsibility for the upbringing of that kid he didn't father, doesn't see, or most likely doesn't know much about?

 

Please!

 

I will be the first to state that yes, and AP is responsible for their actions in the affair, they are responsible for part of the hurt that's inflicted on the BS, they are responsible for being stuck in the mess, they are responsible if they are continuing the affair in any way - no arguments about that there - I truly believe all that.

 

BUT.... The MPs and all those APs/Mps whatever that have kids are responsible for what THEIR actions do to their kids.

Because if it wasn't with that particular affair partner, it will be with another.

 

People do need to take accountability for their actions and for their roles.

If someone is a parent, they better consider what their betrayal to the spouse/partner/other parent is going to do to the kids. That's not on the other affair partner.

[Michael Johnson]

Well if you actually read what I was replying to, you might understand my response.

The person I was replying to was implying that East is the one that needs to consider the kid of the MW and talking about how that kid needs stability, my response was to that.

 

Don't fret, I understood well. Quite frankly the content of your response had nothing to do with the situation.

 

And yes, I still stand by my reply that the parents of that kid are the ones responsible for its stability and well being.

 

Doesn't matter. It's no sweat off my back.

 

Did I claim to know the reason?

 

Yes you did.

 

All I know is that he chose no to dump her. (and considering that she's still at it years later - its kind of proving to be a not so smart choice, hey! but that's just by my evaluation, you and him and others might think it was a fantastic way to deal - and if so, fine, whatever works)

 

Right but you claim to know the reason as to why he stays when you certainly don't. That is where the error lies. Considering your own past, it's hypocritical to harshly judge a betrayed spouse based on the fact that he's still with a wife who's still actively cheating. You don't know what he's going through that still keeps him in the marriage.

 

If I could take a guess its because he loves her and will let her use and humiliate him and still call it love, and maybe he will even say that he's staying with her "for the kid" which may most likely end up putting that same kid more in a situation to get ****ed up than if he had the balls to leave the woman that's so dysfunctional and a terrible example of what relationships (healthy ones at least) should be like.

 

but again...that's just a guess, no insider info

 

This just proves my point about your hypocrisy and the fact that you have no empathy for others who have been hurt and try to tweak your baseless assumptions as facts about someone you do not know at all.

 

 

 

and?....

 

Therefore you have no basis to fully judge the BS.

 

Yeah fine, but that's her responsibility and the father's not East's.

 

There's no "Yeah fine" about it. A child is being neglected and not receiving the love it deserves because his mom is betraying her vows. That's a cold stone fact, not something to simply shrug off but I'm not in the least surprised by your matter of factly attitude towards this woman and her husband.

 

Or are you suggesting that East should take all responsibility for the upbringing of that kid he didn't father, doesn't see, or most likely doesn't know much about?

 

Show me where I suggested that.

 

Please!

 

Please what?

 

I will be the first to state that yes, and AP is responsible for their actions in the affair, they are responsible for part of the hurt that's inflicted on the BS, they are responsible for being stuck in the mess, they are responsible if they are continuing the affair in any way - no arguments about that there - I truly believe all that.

 

Then why the sudden attack on the BS for staying with his wife? Have you talked to him and asked why does he continue to stay with a cheating wife? No. So the assumption on your part about him and his state of mind and the reasons as to why he stays - you cannot substantiate.

 

BUT.... The MPs and all those APs/Mps whatever that have kids are responsible for what THEIR actions do to their kids.

Because if it wasn't with that particular affair partner, it will be with another.

 

It still doesn't change the fact that you assumed something that could be totally off about the BS in this situation without any source to back up your claim. In fact when it comes to a cheater, the BS doesn't have to do anything in relation to his/her wife's cheating as they're not at fault by any means.

 

People do need to take accountability for their actions and for their roles.

If someone is a parent, they better consider what their betrayal to the spouse/partner/other parent is going to do to the kids. That's not on the other affair partner.

 

You're contradicting yourself. You said earlier that the AP bears responsibility and you were correct. Now you're saying the AP does not. If people need to take accountability for their actions and for their roles, then the same applies to any AP involving themselves in a strained marriage. It's like two co-conspirators who are the cheating spouse and the affair partner, who unsuccessfully attempted to murder the betrayed spouse. You can't let the cheating wife off the hook because she didn't actually pull the trigger. Both criminals go down and the same applies here. Both the AP and the WS are the creators of the mess.

Edited September 10, 2012 by Michael Johnson

[TigerCub]

This is what I said originally as far as the BS was oncerned:

"What about the father that knew his wife is being shady, but didn't dump her ass - at least guaranteeing that the kid gets at least 1/2 her custody with a sane person with a backbone."

 

and from that you're claiming over and over that I said that I knew WHY they did what they did.

 

Honestly, if you can't comprehend simple English, then whatever, you're not worth discussing anything with.

 

Point is:

The BS gets hurt - true!

Nothing would ever discount that.

BUT....if the BS is a parent, then the well-being of their kids is still on them, no matter how hurt they are.

If the Mp ****ed up and showed that they clearly put themselves before their kids, then the BS still has to do right by their children.

 

Its NOT the APs responsibility, its the Mp and the BS's responsibility.

 

As I said before, if the Mp was going to cheat and lie and betray and put themselves before their kid, they will do it with the current Ap or with the next.

 

Aps are responsible for the actions they take, that is true, but to actually put the weight of that on the AP like the other poster implied to East takes away the responsibilities of the cheating parent.

 

If you can't understand that this is what I've been trying to say all along, fine, I really don't care.

 

If you insist in putting words in my mouth and arguing something when you obviously don't understand a word I wrote, have at it, I wont indulge the silliness.

[East7]

So, xMW contacted me again and said she can't go away from her child, she would never forgive it to herself, so I assumed she pulled back to where she was.

 

My fist reaction was not disappointment but rather anger for such a time waste all over again. I don't want to be with her in expense of her child happiness but then she needs to suck it up and leave me alone (exactly what I told her!).

 

I know many here think that I am emotionally attached to her. Well, there is tiny part of me that still holds to the old feeling, but there is a massive other part of me that wants to run the hills. It is so different to see people when your head is clear and the A passion seems so far away. For a moment I really considered to be with her but now I have no desire. She is not reliable, she is a weak person and I know she's the kind to prefer being miserable rather than be brave and take actions. If she was my wife I wouldn't feel secure.

 

I have thought about the pros and the cons but really there are too much cons. I am in my mid 30s, single, make good money, have a great life, lots of friends, why would I invest myself into drama when I meet all the time pretty and single ladies who want to start a family from scratch ? I guess I am self-centered but hey, I spend a year of my life making priority a woman who wasn't even mine. I have wasted enough time, drained myself emotionally, expected her to make a move. Too much energy and time for nothing, not even what could have been a normal relationship. It took me 2 years to get over her but now I am just tired. I wish her well but she had the chances; now it is just different. People move on.

 

Thank you everyone for the support even when it is biased and harsh, it is constructive to have different perspectives. There are such wise people here on LS.

[Spark1111]

So, xMW contacted me again and said she can't go away from her child, she would never forgive it to herself, so I assumed she pulled back to where she was.

 

My fist reaction was not disappointment but rather anger for such a time waste all over again. I don't want to be with her in expense of her child happiness but then she needs to suck it up and leave me alone (exactly what I told her!).

 

I know many here think that I am emotionally attached to her. Well, there is tiny part of me that still holds to the old feeling, but there is a massive other part of me that wants to run the hills. It is so different to see people when your head is clear and the A passion seems so far away. For a moment I really considered to be with her but now I have no desire. She is not reliable, she is a weak person and I know she's the kind to prefer being miserable rather than be brave and take actions. If she was my wife I wouldn't feel secure.

 

I have thought about the pros and the cons but really there are too much cons. I am in my mid 30s, single, make good money, have a great life, lots of friends, why would I invest myself into drama when I meet all the time pretty and single ladies who want to start a family from scratch ? I guess I am self-centered but hey, I spend a year of my life making priority a woman who wasn't even mine. I have wasted enough time, drained myself emotionally, expected her to make a move. Too much energy and time for nothing, not even what could have been a normal relationship. It took me 2 years to get over her but now I am just tired. I wish her well but she had the chances; now it is just different. People move on.

 

Thank you everyone for the support even when it is biased and harsh, it is constructive to have different perspectives. There are such wise people here on LS.

 

When you grow sick and tired of being sick and tired...you WILL take proactive action for your own betterment.

 

Block her FOR GOOD.

[TigerCub]

(((East)))

 

I'm sorry you are hurting.

 

I beg you, please! please, please!!!! block that woman for good.

leave no way for her to communicate with you. That way even if she is weak and even if she wants to play fantasy and start things up, she can't.

 

I for one appreciate your honesty about still caring a little and hoping a little. It takes a lot to be really honest about these things sometimes.

 

Don't give her an in to hurt you again.

 

I know its hard to completely block someone you cared so much about, but you will see it is for the best.

 

If I hadn't totally ditched and blocked xMM (and it was sad and hard to do, even with all the evidence that he was a lying jerk) - anyways, if I hadn't done that, I wouldn't have been open to work on me and to love again.

 

Blocking and moving on truly was the best thing I've ever done.

 

I want you to find happiness and I want you to find true love.

 

Hold on to this lesson East.

The pain and the hurt - I do hope you let go of at some point, but don't forget the lesson.

 

I'm always going to be in your corner and I'm always gonna root for you

[East7]

(((East)))

 

I'm sorry you are hurting.

 

I beg you, please! please, please!!!! block that woman for good.

leave no way for her to communicate with you. That way even if she is weak and even if she wants to play fantasy and start things up, she can't.

 

I for one appreciate your honesty about still caring a little and hoping a little. It takes a lot to be really honest about these things sometimes.

 

Don't give her an in to hurt you again.

 

I know its hard to completely block someone you cared so much about, but you will see it is for the best.

 

If I hadn't totally ditched and blocked xMM (and it was sad and hard to do, even with all the evidence that he was a lying jerk) - anyways, if I hadn't done that, I wouldn't have been open to work on me and to love again.

 

Blocking and moving on truly was the best thing I've ever done.

 

I want you to find happiness and I want you to find true love.

 

Hold on to this lesson East.

The pain and the hurt - I do hope you let go of at some point, but don't forget the lesson.

 

I'm always going to be in your corner and I'm always gonna root for you

 

Thanks sweetie, I am not hurting at all. It is actually empowering and liberating to be in the position of saying "I don't want it anymore".

[TigerCub]

Thanks sweetie, I am not hurting at all. It is actually empowering and liberating to be in the position of saying "I don't want it anymore".

 

That's good East. Then I hope that determination stays with you.

 

You deserve so much better

[carhill]

My first reaction was not disappointment but rather anger for such a time waste all over again.

 

I recall that response well. It morphed, over time, into laughing at my own idiocy. It's good to able to laugh at oneself. Laughter is a lubricant in life. Good luck.

[jlola]

Ah, the famous push-pull. She wants you more when she can't have you. Take a look at Borderline personality WAIF. These women are crazy makers. The beginning of relationship makes you feel like you have met your soulmate. She is everything you want her to be and more. You and she have so much in common.

 

But every-time you push she pulls. when you pull she pushes. She fears abandonment and will usually have someone lined up before she leaves the relationship. Women with BPD usually have affairs. they are basically love addicts and love the "honeymoon stage" and affairs are great for creating longing and fantasy.

 

Problem is they make horrible wives. They are too immature to understand a relationship is not always in the "butterflies and longing' and deal with reality of marriage badly. Escape is their drug. Affair partner is their drug until he too becomes real.

[jlola]

Can someone please explain the " push/pull"?

 

(1/2) > >>

 

sandiegolvr:

I am pretty new here and have found SO much help. I need to understand the "push/pull" behavior everyone refers to when they are talking about their bpd person in their life. I am pretty sure I live this every single day...hot then cold...happy then mad...any help would be greatly appreciated!

thanks!!

 

eeyore:

Here is a link to how the borderline relationship develops:

 

How a Borderline Personality Disorder Love Relationship Evolves - Roger Melton, M.A.

 

Here's a link to another thread titled Push/Pull

 

What does it mean, "push/pull"?

 

It's also referred to as come closer/ go away.

 

OnceConfused:

PUsh/pull is a way to test your attachment to BPD. To test your attachment, they push you away, but when you are away, the fear of abandonment gets in, and so they pull you back again. We all have push/pull behaviors to test our partners but for the normal people, the push/pull happens only once just to test. Unfortunately, because BPD is in a different mental state than ours, their push/pull behaviors continue and continue.

 

That is why the non go crazy with these kinds of yes/no, yes/no cycles. We become confused because we don't know the BPD's true feelings, one moment it is bad but then the next moment it is good. Normal people live on a pattern, without a consistent pattern our brain get confused.

 

For example, my xbpdgf broke up with me almost on a weekly basis, even only after the 2 weeks of knowing her. I went back to my emails to her, and discovered how often we broke up with me apologizing and accepting faults just to keep the relationship going.

 

Carnelian:

Hi Sandiego,

 

well push and pull is so difficult I have not posted for a couple of months but my udbpd husband came today to see if i was okay and want to get back after 12 years of infidelity i cant post everything today as it is in other posts. He has his agenda and I suddenly felt trapped I can choose to throw myself into the unkown or taek on relative security and deep unhappiness. I know I can do this anymor and off to Sri Lanka on a retreat to heal myself

 

chin up it difficult and all I want someone to give me a hug

 

utvolfan1959:

The BPD pulls you in to them due to their fear of abandonment. They push you away due to their fear of engulfment. It makes absolutely no sense, but then again most mental diseases don't.

The sex. Kept me coming back. This happened early in the relationship, probably for different reasons. One that I believe was major was that I, as the non, had more of a normal approach to a relationship. I liked her right off the bat, probably a lot. But I wasn't in love with her. That took time for me. But she, as do many BPDs, fell in love (or infatuation, actually) immediately. And she could sense the unbalance in the relationship. And this lit up her insecurities and fear that if I was not into her like she was into me, I would leave her.

 

Fast forward. I do grow to love her. As time goes by, I give more and more of myself to her. She senses that. But instead of it giving her security to know I love her and want to be with her and only her forever, it raises her fear of being engulfed by me. So she starts the pushing away.

 

I think that early in the relationship you will see more pulling than pushing, but you will probably see some of both. Once you are far into the relationship and your feelings become more intense and real toward he or she, then you will likely see more pushing. But both can happen, maybe in very close time frames. Just depends on their mood at the time.

 

From my own experience, the pull was irritating at times, but due to my own self esteem problems, it appealed to me, also. This absolutely beautiful and sexy woman was all over me, literally and figuratively. Then later, when she pushed away after I fell very much in love with her, the predominant feelings were confusion, hurt and anger.

[Michael Johnson]

This is what I said originally as far as the BS was oncerned:

"What about the father that knew his wife is being shady, but didn't dump her ass - at least guaranteeing that the kid gets at least 1/2 her custody with a sane person with a backbone."

 

Exactly and you assumed he has no backbone because he continue to stay with a cheater.

 

and from that you're claiming over and over that I said that I knew WHY they did what they did.

 

Honestly, if you can't comprehend simple English, then whatever, you're not worth discussing anything with.

 

It's not my fault that you have no credibility in your assumptions about someone you don't even know. You can convince yourself otherwise but nobody else cares.

 

Point is:

The BS gets hurt - true!

Nothing would ever discount that.

BUT....if the BS is a parent, then the well-being of their kids is still on them, no matter how hurt they are.

 

How do you know the kid is not being cared for by the BS? Do you have any proof to back this up? Again assumptions get you nowhere, and you can scream to the world all you want it won't change the fact that you don't know the details of the relationship between the child and the BS.

 

If the Mp ****ed up and showed that they clearly put themselves before their kids, then the BS still has to do right by their children.

 

Its NOT the APs responsibility, its the Mp and the BS's responsibility.

 

Based on what grounds? Because you simply say so? Contrary to your "belief," a marriage comes before everyone else, including kids. If you have a ring on your finger you'd know that already. It's easy for someone to involve themselves in someone's marriage and then try to speak from a high horse. Unfortunately that gets that person nowhere.

 

As I said before, if the Mp was going to cheat and lie and betray and put themselves before their kid, they will do it with the current Ap or with the next.

 

And?

 

Aps are responsible for the actions they take, that is true, but to actually put the weight of that on the AP like the other poster implied to East takes away the responsibilities of the cheating parent.

 

Did the other poster ever suggested responsibilities to the child are liberated from the cheating spouse? Please point it out.

 

I forgot, you can't.

 

If you can't understand that this is what I've been trying to say all along, fine, I really don't care.

 

Neither do I.

 

If you insist in putting words in my mouth and arguing something when you obviously don't understand a word I wrote, have at it, I wont indulge the silliness.

 

You put the words in your own mouth. If you want to continue to believe you know other peoples' relationships and marriages, be my guest.

[Barrsitter]

Run away...and don't look back

[East7]

Ah, the famous push-pull. She wants you more when she can't have you. Take a look at Borderline personality WAIF. These women are crazy makers. The beginning of relationship makes you feel like you have met your soulmate. She is everything you want her to be and more. You and she have so much in common.

 

But every-time you push she pulls. when you pull she pushes. She fears abandonment and will usually have someone lined up before she leaves the relationship. Women with BPD usually have affairs. they are basically love addicts and love the "honeymoon stage" and affairs are great for creating longing and fantasy.

 

Problem is they make horrible wives. They are too immature to understand a relationship is not always in the "butterflies and longing' and deal with reality of marriage badly. Escape is their drug. Affair partner is their drug until he too becomes real.

 

This is ALL my xMW !

[jlola]

She will never be mature enough for a true intimate relationship. She will want you to fulfill her fantasy and blame you when you can't be her "knight in shinning armor". Every-time a life crisis comes along you will be reminded of all she had to give up for you.

 

the push-pull will always be there. She would be looking over her shoulders and calling her husband everytime something goes wrong. she needs constant attention and drama.

 

Trust me. You just dodge the bullet. Too many good women with little baggage searching fora good man.

 

The problem with you is that you are a "Nice guy". Nice guys are attracted to BPD women like magnets. They like to rescue the damsel from her sad life and BPD women make the best damsels.. But eventually, the damsel will be searching for another white knight.

[Miss Olivia]

So that kid's stability is on East now?

 

What about parents actually taking accountability for their children and what their actions do to those kids?

 

What about the father that knew his wife is being shady, but didn't dump her ass - at least guaranteeing that the kid gets at least 1/2 her custody with a sane person with a backbone.

 

What about the conniving mother that needs to work her issues out and either fully commit to her family or make a break from her husband and concentrate on raising her child.

 

East isn't trying to play daddy and confuse this girl.

Also, if it wasn't East, it would be some other guy (sorry East, but its true).

 

East isn't involved with this woman anymore, the A has been over and while his NC isn't the version you're approving of, the truth is he's not interfering in that woman's life, she's the one breaking NC.

 

I do agree that East should have complete NC with her, but to actually imply that his involvement is what's going to take away that kid's stability and pretty much screw her up is totally unfair, that's on her parents.

 

Really?

 

You have no idea what I was trying to say. The truth is East was considering being with her again (hence, why he started this thread). It doesn't matter who broke "NC." You can choose to respond to someone who breaks NC or not. He chose to respond. He could have ignored her, and continued NC. By the way, my version of NC is No Contact. I thought that was what NC means?!

 

Secondly,you are right, it is up to the parents to provide stability for their children, but any adult who enters a chid's life, especially as a step-parent, also shares the responsibility. It may or may not be a bad thing if everyone is looking at what is best for the child. But it's not unfair or unrealistic to think that a kids' stability could be affected by a woman leaving her husband for another man.

[Miss Olivia]

So, xMW contacted me again and said she can't go away from her child, she would never forgive it to herself, so I assumed she pulled back to where she was.

 

My fist reaction was not disappointment but rather anger for such a time waste all over again. I don't want to be with her in expense of her child happiness but then she needs to suck it up and leave me alone (exactly what I told her!).

 

I know many here think that I am emotionally attached to her. Well, there is tiny part of me that still holds to the old feeling, but there is a massive other part of me that wants to run the hills. It is so different to see people when your head is clear and the A passion seems so far away. For a moment I really considered to be with her but now I have no desire. She is not reliable, she is a weak person and I know she's the kind to prefer being miserable rather than be brave and take actions. If she was my wife I wouldn't feel secure.

 

I have thought about the pros and the cons but really there are too much cons. I am in my mid 30s, single, make good money, have a great life, lots of friends, why would I invest myself into drama when I meet all the time pretty and single ladies who want to start a family from scratch ? I guess I am self-centered but hey, I spend a year of my life making priority a woman who wasn't even mine. I have wasted enough time, drained myself emotionally, expected her to make a move. Too much energy and time for nothing, not even what could have been a normal relationship. It took me 2 years to get over her but now I am just tired. I wish her well but she had the chances; now it is just different. People move on.

 

Thank you everyone for the support even when it is biased and harsh, it is constructive to have different perspectives. There are such wise people here on LS.

 

 

I guess my version of NC is off! I thought it meant no contact at all. So, really she isn't capable of staying NC. She will keep breaking it, and you know that. You break it as soon as you respond to her. You can't be NC if you don't hold your end and ignore all her attempts to contact you. Are you capable of ignoring her? If you don't want to ignore her, what do you gain from contact with her and why do you call it NC?

[TigerCub]

a marriage comes before everyone else, including kids. If you have a ring on your finger you'd know that already. It's easy for someone to involve themselves in someone's marriage and then try to speak from a high horse. Unfortunately that gets that person nowhere.

 

Really?

A marriage should come before everyone else including those kids created by the couple?

( I admit that this view does baffle me a bit, maybe it is because I'm not married. I just think of it as - some marriages fail, but a person's children are forever. And especially when they are young and can't fend for themselves, my instinct is to think that they would come first. I'm not disrespecting marriage and commitment those are important and should be cherished, but it seems weird to think that something should come before one's kids)

 

I think that's where we certainly have different views on that.

 

I feel that if a person is going to have children they need to be willing to sacrifice anything for them, they need to be selfless and put their child's well-being and happiness and safety before anything.

 

That's why I think when it comes the talk that the Ap is responsible for the the Mp's kid having a broken home and having their security and family messed with, I see as more of the MP's fault because after everything - it is the MP that invited this 3rd party into the whole dynamic, it is the MP that's willing to mess with their own child's environment due to selfish needs. If a person doesn't put their own children first, why would anyone else?

(if you read more on LS you will see that most of the OM/OW stories are with the MP initiating and usually under the false information that they aren't married or that they are separated or getting divorced. - sure this is not ALL of the cases, but it seems to be the majority. The AP is responsible for getting involved and they are responsible for the pain they caused, but if the MP is the one that started it, if the MP lied about the real situation, if the MP is the one that broke vows and promises and risked their own child's well-being, how can the blame really be shifted so that the AP carries most of it?)

 

A lot of people have kids haphazardly and just assume that the world is going to take care of them and if **** goes wrong - well its someone else's fault.

 

Kids are at the mercy of their parents when they are young - they have no control about their lives and what happens with them, and it is up to the parents to ensure that the kid's environment is safe and happy and without fighting, tension, and abuse. That is on the parents.

 

I understand that infidelity is a highly charged issue and I'm trying to respond to you in a polite and respectful manner. Parents' obligation to their kids is a highly charged issue for me, and I really am trying to have a civilized discussion, I hope you can do the same.

[TigerCub]

Really?

 

You have no idea what I was trying to say. The truth is East was considering being with her again (hence, why he started this thread). It doesn't matter who broke "NC." You can choose to respond to someone who breaks NC or not. He chose to respond. He could have ignored her, and continued NC. By the way, my version of NC is No Contact. I thought that was what NC means?!

 

Secondly,you are right, it is up to the parents to provide stability for their children, but any adult who enters a chid's life, especially as a step-parent, also shares the responsibility. It may or may not be a bad thing if everyone is looking at what is best for the child. But it's not unfair or unrealistic to think that a kids' stability could be affected by a woman leaving her husband for another man.

 

Hi Miss Olivia,

 

I didn't realize that your response was referring to if East were ever to be involved in xMW's life for real.

I think due to other issues I have a knee Jerk reaction when it comes to parents taking responsibility for how their actions affect their children and that's what I went off about. From what you wrote, I see we're pretty much on the same page about that.

 

Thanks for explaining.

[Michael Johnson]

Really?

A marriage should come before everyone else including those kids created by the couple?

( I admit that this view does baffle me a bit, maybe it is because I'm not married. I just think of it as - some marriages fail, but a person's children are forever. And especially when they are young and can't fend for themselves, my instinct is to think that they would come first. I'm not disrespecting marriage and commitment those are important and should be cherished, but it seems weird to think that something should come before one's kids)

 

I think that's where we certainly have different views on that.

 

I feel that if a person is going to have children they need to be willing to sacrifice anything for them, they need to be selfless and put their child's well-being and happiness and safety before anything.

 

That's why I think when it comes the talk that the Ap is responsible for the the Mp's kid having a broken home and having their security and family messed with, I see as more of the MP's fault because after everything - it is the MP that invited this 3rd party into the whole dynamic, it is the MP that's willing to mess with their own child's environment due to selfish needs. If a person doesn't put their own children first, why would anyone else?

 

Fair enough, different views.

 

(if you read more on LS you will see that most of the OM/OW stories are with the MP initiating and usually under the false information that they aren't married or that they are separated or getting divorced. - sure this is not ALL of the cases, but it seems to be the majority. The AP is responsible for getting involved and they are responsible for the pain they caused, but if the MP is the one that started it, if the MP lied about the real situation, if the MP is the one that broke vows and promises and risked their own child's well-being, how can the blame really be shifted so that the AP carries most of it?)

 

Nobody said the AP carries most of the blame, but they DO share at least half of it. And many of the stories I've been reading today with the WS giving false information to AP almost always end up with a continued affair with the AP after they've found out they are married.

[East7]

She will never be mature enough for a true intimate relationship. She will want you to fulfill her fantasy and blame you when you can't be her "knight in shinning armor". Every-time a life crisis comes along you will be reminded of all she had to give up for you.

 

the push-pull will always be there. She would be looking over her shoulders and calling her husband everytime something goes wrong. she needs constant attention and drama.

 

Trust me. You just dodge the bullet. Too many good women with little baggage searching fora good man.

 

The problem with you is that you are a "Nice guy". Nice guys are attracted to BPD women like magnets. They like to rescue the damsel from her sad life and BPD women make the best damsels.. But eventually, the damsel will be searching for another white knight.

 

This is very relevant to what scares me at the persepective to be with her.

 

She has most of what you described as symptoms:

 

- Delicate and cute seducer (especially at the beginning of the A).

- Push-pull constantly (Unconsistent): When I ignore her she wants me badly, when I am kind and loving, she pulls back and becomes mean (she says I have too much expectations and bullsh like that..)

- Scared by abandonment. Would prefer having someone lined and ready before she leaves a R.

- Blame shifting ALL the time : she had the nerve to blame me for not being together. For her it is ALL my fault

- Never satisfied : Nothing you do as a man in your life is good enough in her eyes.

- Needs constant attention but loves her freedom. Never tell her what to do...

- Self-centered : it is ALL about HER, how she feels, how anything would impact her comfort, her life, her money etc...

- Addiction to drama : everything becomes a big deal and she starts fighting and eventually ends up crying.

- Loves romance and fantasy. Is able to daydreaming, writes wonderful love poetry, says fantastic words, makes romance plans but rarely takes actions to make them real.

- Becomes enthusiastic to make (various) plans but once they become real she loses interest.

 

hmmm..what else did I forget?...

[jlola]

It puzzles me ho people are deceived into starting a relationship with a MP. then when they find out about the deception they stay. Are they flattered? Don't they realize they are with a person who was willing to perpetuate a HUGE lie in order to trick them into a relationship?

 

I don't know. But someone who lied to me that badly would never get my trust again. taking away your choice to make a decision based on true facts was taken away. And that's ok????

 

There are certain levels of lies and that one is as big as a lie can be.

 

BTW, I have been in that position. Nothing sexual had yet happened, but we had been dating casually for a couple of months and this man was over the top attractive and very romantic and attentive. But the morning his "live-in" called me to tell me he was her boyfriend,everything came to a halt!

 

He tried for a long time to "explain" but I was having none of it. How can you explain such deception? You liked me that much you went against your values? Really???? He didn't know who the heck I was when he decided to deceive me. Just the "image" I presented".

[TigerCub]

Nobody said the AP carries most of the blame, but they DO share at least half of it. And many of the stories I've been reading today with the WS giving false information to AP almost always end up with a continued affair with the AP after they've found out they are married.

 

I think we differ on the split of blame (between Ap/Mp) mainly because we do have different views on what a parent's obligation and responsibility is.

So - since we already agreed to disagree on that, I'll leave it at that.

 

As for the rest...

You are correct - often times when the Ap finds out that they have been duped and that they are involved with an MP, by then its too late and they are already attached to them and love them and still hear stories of how its going to end. I'm not excusing it at all, just explaining.

 

I can only speak from my experience on this - but I had fallen in love with xMM (he really wasn't married but in a serious relationship with the mother of his children) - anyways, I had fallen in love with him by the time I realized (or he stated) that they are back together (and I do believe that he lied about being separated in the first place) it felt like it was too late. By that time I loved him.

 

Since then I struggled with leaving a person I loved so much, with breaking my addiction to him, with the guilt that I felt, and I admit it, it took more months than it should have but I finally did it.

 

That's why when I said in cases of repeated infidelity the BS stays because of love even though the WS has betrayed and humiliated them, I thought of that because that's what it was like for me as an AP that at first didn't know they were an AP and then because they loved that person, they held on and overlooked the lies and wanted so badly to believe. Aps in those cases, didn't ask for this situation, but there they are - and now they have to figure a way out of it even if it breaks their heart.

 

I stress that I talk of repeated cheating (because that WS showed their true colors over and over and yet they keep getting a pass). I don't mean to offend anyone and I realize that even with my view, it probably doesn't represent everyone out there, but that's the similarity I see sometimes.

[TigerCub]

It puzzles me ho people are deceived into starting a relationship with a MP. then when they find out about the deception they stay. Are they flattered? Don't they realize they are with a person who was willing to perpetuate a HUGE lie in order to trick them into a relationship?

 

I don't know. But someone who lied to me that badly would never get my trust again. taking away your choice to make a decision based on true facts was taken away. And that's ok????

 

There are certain levels of lies and that one is as big as a lie can be.

 

BTW, I have been in that position. Nothing sexual had yet happened, but we had been dating casually for a couple of months and this man was over the top attractive and very romantic and attentive. But the morning his "live-in" called me to tell me he was her boyfriend,everything came to a halt!

 

He tried for a long time to "explain" but I was having none of it. How can you explain such deception? You liked me that much you went against your values? Really???? He didn't know who the heck I was when he decided to deceive me. Just the "image" I presented".

 

Oh jlola, how I wish I saw all that at the right time.

 

I think that in my case, it was because I thought he was "separated" that I thought "ok, we'll talk and hang out, but not date - I'm gonna be smart about this :p" but then I dunno with constant emails and txts and calls and all that and eventually the confessions of love - it feels like the quick sand sucks you in so quickly - after that, Aps usually find out the truth and then its a struggle to get out even though the betrayal was huge.

 

That's what I hate the most about what happened with me. I've always prided myself on not only turning down attached men that hit on, but actually telling them off - then this jackass lies and I fall.

 

I'm glad for you that you didn't go down that path once you knew what was up.