Are MM toxic?

[AnotherRound]

In another thread someone referred to MMs as toxic. As I read it, I thought, I don't think the person is toxic, I think that the relationship as an A is toxic.

 

I'm having some issue with people determining that someone is "bad" or "good" bc of actions. Aren't we all just a mixture of both? I mean, I can't even think of a person who I would consider innately "bad". Even murderers and child molesters usually have some humanity to them, and their actions are horrendous, but they are still people who are loveable, and loved by others.

 

I guess my outlook on life is that a person cannot be innately "bad" bc of decisions that they have made. I can dislike a person's actions, or their decisions, but I can usually find some empathy and understanding of WHY they did what they did. Is this true for anyone else, or am I just a really empathic person and most aren't? Honestly wondering as I'm seeing a lot of "he/she is bad, end of story".

[MissBee]

I too don't tend to think "He/she is bad, end of story", but I think with some people's tales they bring here, the situation is overwhelmingly bad and problematic, yet this person is going through hoops to find something redeemable or to explain all the obvious bad away....and in that case, in good faith, I can't join them on the journey of using a microscope to find the good in a problem-riddled scenario. What's the point?

 

I thin empathizing and sympathizing are different from tolerating and I think some people will look for an excuse to put up with or tolerate a situation, under the guise of them being caring and understanding. Lots of codependent relationships work this way. Person A is with Person B who may very well be providing a toxic scenario, yet Person A sticks around defending Person B saying "you just don't understand him or her...I am the only empathetic one here who loves them and is willing to stick around understanding them".

 

Some people are toxic...yes they are. I'm sure they got that way for a reason...yet it doesn't mean that because there is a reason we can't call a spade a spade. I am as suspicious of the tendency to see all bad in someone as I am of the tendency to say "everybody's good...we just need to find the good in them". On a real level, it comes down to realizing who in your life is an aid to you and you them and who isn't. Some people arent't worth keeping around, neither are some situations, and you have to cut them out. I had to learn that. My tendency was to feel bad for everyone and along with feeling badly, I felt I had to tolerate BS in the name of being "understanding". I grew to realize self-love, self-care and having boundaries are invaluable and you can be empathetic while distancing yourself and while deciding someone's actions are not a positive influence on your physical, emotional, psychological and spiritual health.

 

For me, the issue isn't a philosophical discussion on human nature and whether people can be good or bad, but in real life, who is this person, what are they contributing and doing, is it negative or positive in the scenario in question, is it helping or hindering you, what do you have to gain by being around them etc. That's what matters...not whether or not they are innately bad or good. Someone may not be innately bad, but may be bad for you....so that's how I personally view it.

[Got it]

I think it is a sum of our actions, if the majority is of a negative nature, then yeah not a great person. I think it is hard to be judge, jury and executioner until the end of someone's life. I have little interest in judging people. I keep focused on my life, worry about what I do, and go from there.

[Sauron]

I am a MM and I don't feel toxic at all. I am also a father, husband, business owner, volunteer, mentor, etc. I have a lover on the side, so some here would say I am toxic. I am just a human doing human things living a human life.

[Radagast]

My ex-wife was an unfaithful spouse in her first marriage. By all accounts (except hers) her behaviour was toxic in that marriage, and her behaviour was certainly toxic in the context of our marriage. Some of her parenting has clearly been toxic as evidenced by problems our children have developed as a result. Her management style was toxic as evidenced by disciplinary action taken against her. Does this make her "a toxic person" in every respect? I would like to give her the benefit of the doubt and say that she has the potential to behave in non-toxic ways in situations she does not find threatening. I am not sure what those might be but I'd like to believe they are out there. If indeed she is entirely toxic with no redeeming characteristics and no potential for anything other than venom, then I have wasted decades of my life in a meaningless pursuit.

 

Was I toxic? Am I toxic? I would like to believe my wife, family, friends, colleagues, neighbours and service providers when they assure me that I am not. My ex-wife probably thinks I am, but I take that whence it comes.

[strongnrelaxed]

I am a MM and I don't feel toxic at all. I am also a father, husband, business owner, volunteer, mentor, etc. I have a lover on the side, so some here would say I am toxic. I am just a human doing human things living a human life.

 

Sauron, you should speak up more about such things. Kudos to you for putting this out there.

 

The shaming and disgusting bullying behavior scares younger men, I think, and pressures them into marriages. I felt this way. And they get married and 20 years down the line they hit reality.

[AnotherRound]

I'm not sure why this was moved to this board, but thanks for the responses. It was just something that hit me when I read the other poster that said that MM are toxic. I guess for me, I just don't feel like that's a true statement. I mean, I'm sure some MM are toxic, as are some christians, some priests, some neighbors, etc. It's the broad brush that bothers me I guess. The ability to just make a blanket statement that ALL of anything are whatever.

 

I will agree that, for me, the A was toxic. It wasn't good for me in that it never settled well with me. I didn't take pleasure in knowing that I was doing things that were hurtful to someone else. I wasn't a HOW at any point, in that I never truly accepted the fact that I was involved in an A. I knew I was, but I didn't "like" it.

 

I like what you said Sauron, about being a human living a human life. That's how I see it. We are all just getting through as best we can with what we have and know and feel. There is no instruction book or maps or flow charts telling us what to do, when, and how to do it. I think, for the most part, people are good in general. Imo, very few people in this world truly enjoy and/or set out to hurt others. And even fewer feel no remorse when they do so.

 

I know that I'm not perfect, and that even prior to the A, when I was a BS, I wasn't perfect then either. I don't expect others to be perfect, and I do try not to judge, bc I don't think it's my place, and I don't think it's helpful to anyone or anything. I think judgment gives some people a false sense of security, in that, it helps them convince themselves that they are "better" or whatever-er than someone else. I think it's all truly relative. I think that that security also provides a way for some people to convince themselves that they are completely innocent of any wrong doing and victimized. I don't think that's a healthy way to approach life. I am not saying that a BS is at fault for an A, but I do believe that the BS is at fault for the breakdown of a relationship. I don't have statistics, but in my reading and work, I have yet to see a relationship break down to an irreparable level with only one person at fault. I guess you could then get into levels of fault, but to me, that's moot really, at the end of the day. Was the other person "worse" than you? Maybe, but does it really matter?

 

I just don't have this need to feel "better" than someone, or less at fault, or victimized. I make my choices, and I know the possible consequences, and at the time I make them, I choose accordingly. When I have a consequence, I don't try to avoid it, I just chin up and deal with it. But, I don't carry the blame for other people's actions. I make them carry that for themselves by refusing to take it for them. We all have to own up to our parts in whatever we participate in, imo.

 

Anyway, as an aside, I have only been with one MM in my entire life as an AP. And I can honestly say, more of the SGs I have dated have been FAR more toxic for me than my exMM ever was. That doesn't make me conclude that ALL SGs are toxic... it just says that some of the ones I have dated were toxic. I don't read any more into it than that. I have to say, I'm glad that I don't think the other way, bc I think it would be miserable to just dismiss entire populations of people based on the actions of one person. Or to have to go through life thinking that "those people are bad". I find it sad, to be honest.

[AnotherRound]

I think a person doing something *that* awful to others is a bad person. Its possible to stop being a bad person and earn your way back to being decent but it takes a lot of work and remorse.

 

I don't think a good person is capable of doing that much harm to others.

 

This is a fundamental difference between how you and I think JadeEyes. You say a "bad" person has to "earn" their way back. Earn from who? You? Society? God? I mean, who gets to decide if someone is "good" or "bad"? I just don't feel comfortable making that judgment about fellow humans.

 

I also think the problem is that some people seem to expect someone who has made a mistake to spend the rest of their lives with their tail between their legs. To never have pride again, or confidence, or boundaries. I just don't agree with that, I don't think that's healthy. I know MY heart better than anyone else in this world. I don't feel the need to gain/earn anything from other humans, unless I've personally harmed them in some way. But even then, I will continue to be proud of who I am. I don't think mistakes negate everything good I've done, or define my entire personality.

[AnotherRound]

I am a MM and I don't feel toxic at all. I am also a father, husband, business owner, volunteer, mentor, etc. I have a lover on the side, so some here would say I am toxic. I am just a human doing human things living a human life.

 

I really appreciate this response. I agree. I appreciate so many things about my exMM that have nothing to do with the fact that he was my AP previously. He has a lot of good qualities, and is also many other things in this world besides a husband.

[AnotherRound]

Sauron, you should speak up more about such things. Kudos to you for putting this out there.

 

The shaming and disgusting bullying behavior scares younger men, I think, and pressures them into marriages. I felt this way. And they get married and 20 years down the line they hit reality.

 

I totally agree. It works that way for women too, to an extent. I remember feeling like since I had been dating my exH for 3 years, and we were right in our young 20s, that we "needed" to get married. It was the next natural step, right? Problem is, we are SO different now than we were then. I can't even believe how much I changed as a person from the age of 21 to 30. I think it has leveled off now mostly, but it was a lot of change in those young adult years. And exH and I are two people now that would NEVER even consider dating one another. We could be friends, or whatever, but date? No way.

 

Society in general pushes marriage. You get tax breaks for it, ffs. As a single woman in my late 30s, I can tell you the stigma hasn't changed much. I still get the looks and questions of, "why isn't she married? What's wrong with her?" Double whammy for me bc I also don't have children. I have a career, and have been fairly successful, but that still doesn't ease the minds of those around me who still wonder what is wrong with me. lol Nothing is "wrong" with me. I just don't want to be married. And so far, I haven't been in a situation where I felt comfortable bringing a child into it.

 

I also think that women are trained, from an early age, to expect marriage. I know many men who have been in marriages bc of ultimatums. I don't know how anyone thought that would ever work. I also know women who have purposely become pregnant to "trap" a man. Again, I don't know why anyone ever thought that would work. But it is what we are trained for, what is expected of us.

 

As for me, I will probably never be married again. I didn't like being married, it felt stifling. Not to mention, I had to give up my last name (his demand, not legally, I know), which is so disconcerting. I have my own identity, and want to keep it. I don't want to be an extension of a man, I want to be a partner. If we can't be equals, then I would rather stay single and remain my own entity, if that makes sense? And it wasn't about wanting to continue to sow my wild oats. It was about wanting to have a partnership with someone that I mesh with, and knowing that it was equal, and that we both had the same worth in society prior and after the union. I would live with someone, create a life with them, maybe even have children with them. But marriage? The only reason I could see doing it now would be for practical reasons in that society is still set up like that's the "best" way for everyone.

[OpenBook]

I like what you said Sauron, about being a human living a human life. That's how I see it. We are all just getting through as best we can with what we have and know and feel. There is no instruction book or maps or flow charts telling us what to do, when, and how to do it. I think, for the most part, people are good in general. Imo, very few people in this world truly enjoy and/or set out to hurt others. And even fewer feel no remorse when they do so.

 

I know that I'm not perfect, and that even prior to the A, when I was a BS, I wasn't perfect then either. I don't expect others to be perfect, and I do try not to judge, bc I don't think it's my place, and I don't think it's helpful to anyone or anything. I think judgment gives some people a false sense of security, in that, it helps them convince themselves that they are "better" or whatever-er than someone else. I think it's all truly relative. I think that that security also provides a way for some people to convince themselves that they are completely innocent of any wrong doing and victimized. I don't think that's a healthy way to approach life. I am not saying that a BS is at fault for an A, but I do believe that the BS is at fault for the breakdown of a relationship. I don't have statistics, but in my reading and work, I have yet to see a relationship break down to an irreparable level with only one person at fault. I guess you could then get into levels of fault, but to me, that's moot really, at the end of the day. Was the other person "worse" than you? Maybe, but does it really matter?

 

Anyway, as an aside, I have only been with one MM in my entire life as an AP. And I can honestly say, more of the SGs I have dated have been FAR more toxic for me than my exMM ever was. That doesn't make me conclude that ALL SGs are toxic... it just says that some of the ones I have dated were toxic. I don't read any more into it than that. I have to say, I'm glad that I don't think the other way, bc I think it would be miserable to just dismiss entire populations of people based on the actions of one person. Or to have to go through life thinking that "those people are bad". I find it sad, to be honest.

 

Awesome awesome post AR!! My favorite parts bolded. You said everything I believe, almost like looking in a mirror!

 

There's gotta be some kind of payoff for BS's to continue to steep in that kind of misery, playing the victim-with-the-innocent-halo years after they claim to have reconciled with their CH's. I find it flabbergasting when they insist there's no link whatsoever between the cheating and the breakdown of their M. It defies logic. And the judgment - don't even get me started on that!!! Actually it's not even the judgment that bugs me (I actually agree with some of their calls) - it's the condemnation, and the blind arrogance with which it is doled out, that I can't stand. Who the hell do they think they are??? I'm just so glad and grateful they don't have any authority over me, and that I don't have anyone like that around me IRL. Whew! what a nightmare.

[AnotherRound]

Awesome awesome post AR!! My favorite parts bolded. You said everything I believe, almost like looking in a mirror!

 

There's gotta be some kind of payoff for BS's to continue to steep in that kind of misery, playing the victim-with-the-innocent-halo years after they claim to have reconciled with their CH's. I find it flabbergasting when they insist there's no link whatsoever between the cheating and the breakdown of their M. It defies logic. And the judgment - don't even get me started on that!!! Actually it's not even the judgment that bugs me (I actually agree with some of their calls) - it's the condemnation, and the blind arrogance with which it is doled out, that I can't stand. Who the hell do they think they are??? I'm just so glad and grateful they don't have any authority over me, and that I don't have anyone like that around me IRL. Whew! what a nightmare.

 

I agree! I just see it so much in so many places, the judgment. I've just never been one to do so. There's an old story that I like about this... I'll try to shorten it (although I'm obvs not good at short responses, lol)...

 

On a fairly isolated road one night, there are cars passing a field at about 2 or 3 cars every 10 minutes. As the first goes by, there is a young boy, probably about age 10, throwing rocks at the car. The driver of the car is confused, then angry. "Well, that little s***! He was throwing rocks at my car!", but continues to drive on. This happens to several other cars, and they all have the same reaction to the boy on the side of the road throwing rocks at their cars. Finally, a female driver is passing by, and as the rocks hit her car, she is angry, and decides to stop and chastise the little boy for his behaviors. She stops the car, and as she is getting out to approach the boy, she notices that there is a wrecked car in a ravine that was not able to be seen from the road. The little boy is running towards her and says to her, "I'm so glad someone finally stopped! My Dad and little brother are in the car and they aren't talking and I can't find the cell phone!". The lady dials 911, and everyone in the vehicle, 10 year old boy, 4 year old boy, and father all survive.

 

The moral of the story? You never truly know why someone is behaving the way that they are behaving. There are ALWAYS things that are unknown to you about other people's behaviors. It is better to assess the situation, from all angles, and then decide... are you angry that the little boy threw stones at your car? Or, does that no longer matter since you understand why he threw rocks at your car?

 

 

This story has always struck me, bc it is EXACTLY how I look at life. I always try to understand someone's behavior, not judge it. If I'm in line at a store, and someone is rude to me, or grouchy, I don't assume that they are a terrible person. I think, maybe they are having a bad day? Someone tailgating me in traffic? Maybe they are rushing to their child who is in the hospital. I could be wrong, sure. Maybe they are just hateful and rude people. But I prefer my way first, at least until I can see into the ravine and make sense of it all.

[AnotherRound]

That's a nice free pass for people with that attitude Gotit. Kind of like deathbed repentance. "I screwed up another persons life forever but hey I was a nice person otherwise" doesn't work for me. If the cruelty was bad enough then I don't think even living honestly the rest of ones life helps. There would have to be some serious reparation which of course there would never be.

 

Nobody has the power to screw up YOUR life forever except you, unless they are holding you hostage, against your will. Otherwise, you can walk away. If you have given someone that power, then that is on you whether or not you continue to allow them that or not. Going through life without control of yourself, and believing that you can control someone else, is only setting yourself up for disappointment. It works exactly opposite. You can only control yourself, and nobody else. When I finally accepted that, life became a whole lot less scary, and I became a whole lot more peaceful, bc now? I don't have to allow certain behaviors if I don't want them, and I can walk away. And, I'm not at the mercy of other people's whims and moods.

[AnotherRound]

Awesome awesome post AR!! My favorite parts bolded. You said everything I believe, almost like looking in a mirror!

 

There's gotta be some kind of payoff for BS's to continue to steep in that kind of misery, playing the victim-with-the-innocent-halo years after they claim to have reconciled with their CH's. I find it flabbergasting when they insist there's no link whatsoever between the cheating and the breakdown of their M. It defies logic. And the judgment - don't even get me started on that!!! Actually it's not even the judgment that bugs me (I actually agree with some of their calls) - it's the condemnation, and the blind arrogance with which it is doled out, that I can't stand. Who the hell do they think they are??? I'm just so glad and grateful they don't have any authority over me, and that I don't have anyone like that around me IRL. Whew! what a nightmare.

 

PS... When my exH and I were attempting to reconcile after his A and our D, I remember this stuff well. I never took any blame for him having the A, as I obviously was NOT in on that decision, lol. He didn't attempt to pass the blame to me, but he did correlate his actions to some of my behaviors. Now that, I can take my blame for. I wasn't perfect, and I wasn't a good match for him, but there were other ways he could have approached that issue besides having an A. He chose the A, and that was his choice, and his alone.

 

However, I totally took my part of the blame for the breakdown of the marriage. I tried, and he tried, we just didn't fit. I didn't expect him to follow me around and beg for mercy, that isn't healthy, ever (I don't care what MCs say on this, I totally disagree with this whole part of it as I believe it leads to even more resentment). I just expected him to own his part (he did) and go on from there. I still feel guilty sometimes for the behaviors I exhibited at times to him. I was very callous to him at times, and I regret that. But he knows me, he knows I'm not a bad person, I just wasn't soft enough with him, and that's what he needed. We both needed things that the other couldn't provide. It's not personal, it's not that we didn't love each other, it just didn't mesh, period.

 

I worked through the A my exH had on me, and I moved on. Truly moved on. I didn't look at all men as cheaters. All men are possible cheaters, but heck, all humans are possible cheaters, ya know? I didn't think that bc he and I didn't work that I would never love again, or that I would never find someone else to be with. I just, moved on. It hurt, I cried, I processed, I worked through it. But I didn't use my pain as a baseball bat to beat him with. What good does that do? He ALREADY felt bad enough about how he handled the situation. What we needed was not to keep hashing it out, but to move forward.

 

If someone cheats on me, and I decide to stay, I don't think that I have the right to berate them for however long it takes me to "get past it". I willingly chose to stay, so, I better buck up and put both feet in and BE there. It's not the cheater's job to be beaten down forever bc they acted badly and the SO CHOSE to stay with them, knowing the behavior. This is also why I think so many attempts at reconciliation fail so miserably. Because so many believe that this is how to "fix" the issues... ??? It doesn't make sense to me, at all. I think it's terribly unhealthy to decide to stay with someone, and then just hate them, resent them, refuse to connect with them, and feel that any behavior is appropriate bc you were "wronged".

[Silly_Girl]

I agree! I just see it so much in so many places, the judgment. I've just never been one to do so. There's an old story that I like about this... I'll try to shorten it (although I'm obvs not good at short responses, lol)...

 

On a fairly isolated road one night, there are cars passing a field at about 2 or 3 cars every 10 minutes. As the first goes by, there is a young boy, probably about age 10, throwing rocks at the car. The driver of the car is confused, then angry. "Well, that little s***! He was throwing rocks at my car!", but continues to drive on. This happens to several other cars, and they all have the same reaction to the boy on the side of the road throwing rocks at their cars. Finally, a female driver is passing by, and as the rocks hit her car, she is angry, and decides to stop and chastise the little boy for his behaviors. She stops the car, and as she is getting out to approach the boy, she notices that there is a wrecked car in a ravine that was not able to be seen from the road. The little boy is running towards her and says to her, "I'm so glad someone finally stopped! My Dad and little brother are in the car and they aren't talking and I can't find the cell phone!". The lady dials 911, and everyone in the vehicle, 10 year old boy, 4 year old boy, and father all survive.

 

The moral of the story? You never truly know why someone is behaving the way that they are behaving. There are ALWAYS things that are unknown to you about other people's behaviors. It is better to assess the situation, from all angles, and then decide... are you angry that the little boy threw stones at your car? Or, does that no longer matter since you understand why he threw rocks at your car?

 

 

This story has always struck me, bc it is EXACTLY how I look at life. I always try to understand someone's behavior, not judge it. If I'm in line at a store, and someone is rude to me, or grouchy, I don't assume that they are a terrible person. I think, maybe they are having a bad day? Someone tailgating me in traffic? Maybe they are rushing to their child who is in the hospital. I could be wrong, sure. Maybe they are just hateful and rude people. But I prefer my way first, at least until I can see into the ravine and make sense of it all.

 

This sums up how I feel. My approach to life. And it gets me in all sorts of pickles. I end up sounding argumentative, like I'm determined to play devil's advocate. Most recent one: had a girls night in at my place Friday, my friend was so critical of her mother-in-law about something, very hurt and angry, yet I could think of several ways that particular circumstance could have come about. People don't like to hear it. But it's what happens in my head naturally, all the time. And I get a few jibes here and there on the OW board because I'm forever pointing out what I see as the difference between 'making a judgement' (a call on something) and 'being judgemental'. Don't need to explain that to you, I know you get it. Many don't

 

I'm thrilled you posted this.

[Sauron]

Finally some common sense. My wife and I have been on the verge of divorce numerous times, we both are family oriented and opted to stick it out, after more than 30 years, it is not a simple process and there are lots of non relationship considerations in business and finace that keep us bonded. So I found a solution that works for me, and I am ok if my wife decides to find one for her as long as there is discretion and safe sex involved. My lover is happy with our realtionship and neither of us wants to ruin it by doing something stupid like me getting divorced and us getting married. We are all in our mid 50's. No toxicity here. I also am not a traditionalist. I feel for all the BS's that have been hurt. I have put forth that their is a casue and effect leading up to their WS affairs and that they all have some culpability. That message didn't resonate very well, but I do believe it to be the case.

[Toots]

I don't think my xMM was toxic. I think he had some serious baggage from his childhood and I think his marriage was toxic and he was just trying to get by.

[OpenBook]

PS... When my exH and I were attempting to reconcile after his A and our D, I remember this stuff well. I never took any blame for him having the A, as I obviously was NOT in on that decision, lol. He didn't attempt to pass the blame to me, but he did correlate his actions to some of my behaviors. Now that, I can take my blame for. I wasn't perfect, and I wasn't a good match for him, but there were other ways he could have approached that issue besides having an A. He chose the A, and that was his choice, and his alone.

 

However, I totally took my part of the blame for the breakdown of the marriage.

 

I guess I'll never understand it then. Sigh. It's not about blaming (that's a losing game in a M!!). It's about acknowledging that A + B can easily lead to C. If you're being ugly to your S over a long period of time, and/or deny them sex/intimacy, eventually they're going to try to find it elsewhere.

 

Sauron said it better than I could:

 

I feel for all the BS's that have been hurt. I have put forth that their is a casue and effect leading up to their WS affairs and that they all have some culpability. That message didn't resonate very well, but I do believe it to be the case.

[woinlove]

I don't like the labelling of people as good or bad either. Labelling behaviors as good/bad, helpful/harmful, kind/unkind, respectful/disrespectful -- all that is useful and appropriate.

 

But labelling people, whether is is "bad people have affairs" or "good people have affairs" (some book often mentioned on the OW/OM forum has a name like that), I think it is either laziness (labelling people, rather than describing behaviors), people looking for reinforcement, or an author pandering to such silliness in an attempt to sell more books.

 

I don't know what original thread this refers to, but someone may say MM are toxic and mean having affairs with MM is toxic. The former is not a valid statement in my opinion, while the latter is at least a valid topic for discussion and one would expect different opinions to be given.

[woinlove]

I have put forth that their is a casue and effect leading up to their WS affairs and that they all have some culpability. That message didn't resonate very well, but I do believe it to be the case.

 

ALL??? Such absolute generalizations are hogwash, so I have to disagree with you and OpenBook on this. Not every situation is the same and to think so is a result of a limited mentality, IMO. For BS, they may speak out of pain and generalize, but in your cases, I don't see that as the reason for your black and white thinking. Maybe guilt? Maybe wanting to think you treat others better than you do? I don't know.

 

I've had an A with a MM whose decision to be selfish and dishonest was completely on him. Even he would agree with this and he was self-aware enough to know how selfish and dishonest he was and he would be no matter who he was married to. He was a very good deceiver and could fool almost anyone when he chose to.

Edited September 11, 2012 by woinlove

[Got it]

I don't like the labelling of people as good or bad either. Labelling behaviors as good/bad, helpful/harmful, kind/unkind, respectful/disrespectful -- all that is useful and appropriate.

 

But labelling people, whether is is "bad people have affairs" or "good people have affairs" (some book often mentioned on the OW/OM forum has a name like that), I think it is either laziness (labelling people, rather than describing behaviors), people looking for reinforcement, or an author pandering to such silliness in an attempt to sell more books.

 

I don't know what original thread this refers to, but someone may say MM are toxic and mean having affairs with MM is toxic. The former is not a valid statement in my opinion, while the latter is at least a valid topic for discussion and one would expect different opinions to be given.

 

The title of the book is called "When Good People have Affairs". I believe the author gives her reasoning for the title as a tongue in cheek. I think understanding the book would educate you on the crux of it and then be able to form an educated opinion.

[woinlove]

The title of the book is called "When Good People have Affairs". I believe the author gives her reasoning for the title as a tongue in cheek. I think understanding the book would educate you on the crux of it and then be able to form an educated opinion.

 

I like openness and honesty in my intimate relationships. Works for me and I am attracted to people who share these values. So I disagree with the author when she argues for dishonesty and deception. I'd take her explanation of the title with a grain of salt, given her position on honesty. In any case, the title is a good marketing ploy and I'm sure she and her publishers understand that.

[LadyGrey]

In another thread someone referred to MMs as toxic. As I read it, I thought, I don't think the person is toxic, I think that the relationship as an A is toxic.

 

I'm having some issue with people determining that someone is "bad" or "good" bc of actions. Aren't we all just a mixture of both? I mean, I can't even think of a person who I would consider innately "bad". Even murderers and child molesters usually have some humanity to them, and their actions are horrendous, but they are still people who are loveable, and loved by others.

 

I guess my outlook on life is that a person cannot be innately "bad" bc of decisions that they have made. I can dislike a person's actions, or their decisions, but I can usually find some empathy and understanding of WHY they did what they did. Is this true for anyone else, or am I just a really empathic person and most aren't? Honestly wondering as I'm seeing a lot of "he/she is bad, end of story".

 

Yes, I do believe my xmm was a toxic person, not just to me but to any women who have been in his life. I spoke with 2 of these women and he has a life long pattern of lying, cheating and not being authentic with his true self.

 

From what I know about his childhood, it seems quite normal, had he had a difficult one, I could find some empathy and understanding. I believe he has a deep seated dislike, maybe hate for all women peppered with a lot of resentment for his mother because she was the strong one, the one who did the lions share of parenting because his father was an army man. I think he felt that his father was dominated by his mother, but yet he spoke of how much his father loved his mother. Jealousy, resentment, from him some of both I suppose but never any hints of him being abused or mistreated.

 

So yes, I do think he was a bad person and that is not just because of what he did to me, it's a cumulative thing in how he has treated all the women that he has claimed to love. The man I fell in love with was not the true man, he was faking it. Yes I think he was "innately bad". I believe every thing he did that appeared good on the surface was calculated and planned in order to get what ever need of his filled. I'm not sure the man is capable of a real honest heartfelt response. It's all calculated and planned with him. Perhaps he is a sociopath?

 

I do not put all mm in the same category as him.

 

I make no apologies for feeling that way about him. It is the sum of my experience and no I'm not bitter or angry anymore.

[Got it]

I like openness and honesty in my intimate relationships. Works for me and I am attracted to people who share these values. So I disagree with the author when she argues for dishonesty and deception. I'd take her explanation of the title with a grain of salt, given her position on honesty. In any case, the title is a good marketing ploy and I'm sure she and her publishers understand that.

 

I found many pieces of it that I liked, some I didn't agree with so took away those pieces that worked for me. What resonated the most to me was the breakdown on the possible types of affairs. It helped understand the whys one may be in an affair and what they may be hoping to achieve. It helped me understand my WS status as well as dMM's. I read it again recently and gleaned a few more pieces.

 

Do I think what she wrote is the be all and end all? No. It is an opinion that resonated with me. I read After the Affair and parts of that book have resonated with me as well as well as parts I didn't completely agree with.

 

And titles are meant to be catchy. Books do need to sell.

[The Way I Am]

No one was born bad. All toxic people became that way as a result of their experiences.

 

The difference between whether I have sympathy for a person behaving badly is whether or not they actually realize the harm their actions cause and whether they're doing something to change those actions.

 

I empathize with others and understand that behind every bad action is probably a sad tale. But I won't let someone use their sad tales as a free pass for bad behavior.

 

It was just something that hit me when I read the other poster that said that MM are toxic. I guess for me, I just don't feel like that's a true statement. I mean, I'm sure some MM are toxic, as are some christians, some priests, some neighbors, etc. It's the broad brush that bothers me I guess. The ability to just make a blanket statement that ALL of anything are whatever.

 

All people who are currently engaging in behavior that harms other people are toxic. It doesn't matter if they're Christian, Buddhist, priests, monks, or... neighbors (? Why would you even include neighbor in that list? ??)

 

Therefore, ALL men who are married and choose to harm their partner, children, and/or the other woman by engaging in an affair are toxic.

 

Saying all MM are toxic is not anything close to painting with a broad brush. It's painting with the very narrow brush of judging people by their actions. All men and women who cheat on their spouses, all child molesters, all wife beaters, all murderers, all muggers, etc are toxic. That doesn't mean they're 100% bad. I think it's obtuse and/or self-serving to suggest most people believe that to be true.

 

If they truly regret what they've done, choose to rehabilitate and try to make amends for their actions, only then do they deserve empathy and cease being toxic.

Edited September 12, 2012 by The Way I Am