Can we find common ground?

[M30USA]

I think Paul said it best:

 

"Or what fellowship has light with darkness?" (2 Cor 6:14, ESV)

 

If you prefer Old Testament writers, then Proverbs says that two people cannot walk together unless they share the same destination.

[mercy]

What I find sad is how easily you abandon adult discussion resort to ad hominems, and how consistently other believers approve of this sort of behaviour just because you're on the same side.

 

Well, we do have to stick together. I'm afraid if we don't we'll just be mindlessly wandering.

[amaysngrace]

What I find sad is how easily you abandon adult discussion resort to ad hominems, and how consistently other believers approve of this sort of behaviour just because you're on the same side.

 

I think the main problem is you see sides. You feel as though there is opposition and I truly don't feel that way towards you or anybody who doesn't believe in God.

 

Perhaps you think about people of faith and see them as the enemy?

[M30USA]

Advice to everyone:

 

Stop focusing on everyone "getting along" and start focusing on TRUTH. Seek truth above everything and let God determine what happens. If people get along, so be it. If people don't get along, so be it. There are bigger things going on in this world--bigger powers and forces than you and me.

[amaysngrace]

So that means approving of lame insults just because the person doing the insulting believes in the same god as you?

 

Well what's your alternative explanation for why a handful of people are almost pathalogically putting their stamp of approval on any ravings or lame insults that just so happen to come from fellow Christians?

 

I believe it's all the same God. I am not one to see differences as much as I seek common ground, or at least I try my best to.

 

Which I think is the point of this thread, isn't it?

 

You left my question unanswered. Do you see people of faith as the enemy?

[M30USA]

I believe it's all the same God. I am not one to see differences as much as I seek common ground, or at least I try my best to.

 

Which I think is the point of this thread, isn't it?

 

You left my question unanswered. Do you see people of faith as the enemy?

 

Hmm...be very careful about claiming that. It sounds good on the surface but upon examination it fails. I will give you a specific example. There are those who claim that Christians and Muslims believe in the same God. Yes, much of the terminology is the same. Yes, Muslism even believe in Jesus. However, when you look at the functional role of Jesus (and other figures) in these two religions, you find that, while agreeing upon their existence, their roles are completely reversed. What do I mean by that? Well, the Antichrist of the Bible fits perfectly the description of the 12th Imam in Islam (or their coming messiah). And, in the opinion of Islam, when Jesus comes he will tell everyone that Christians have had it wrong all along: that he never was cruxified or died, that he wasn't the person who we wrote about in the Scriptures, and that he is not God. This creates a bit of a problem. Satan uses partial truths to deceive people. He keeps the names the same--doesn't even deny Jesus--yet he flips the roles of the Antichrist and the REAL Jesus completely upside down. This shows how Satan is the master of counterfeits.

[M30USA]

s/God/evidence/, and for once I actually agree with M30USA.

 

Should have closed the thread right there, dammit.

[Anela]

One reason I stopped responding to certain threads...I couldn't respond with respect. I don't feel as if I have to defend my beliefs if I am not asking anyone else to believe it. I freely made my choices and I suspect everyone here has gone through their own very personal journey and come to their conclusions. That does not make them stupid, idiotic, full of BS, or incompetent. It does make them different than me and I am good with differences. I don't need to be persuaded to think differently. I have gone through my own journey of belief and non belief (decades actually) and there is no need to tell me brainwashed. I'm out.

 

This is why I'm backing off at times: because it doesn't help me to have people quote the bible for me, or talk about Jesus, and I don't want to be disrespectful.

 

There are other parts of spirituality, though. Some belief systems don't look to just one god - some people just believe in being good to the earth and to each other, because it's the right thing to do in their minds and hearts. I use tarot cards, and don't believe that they're products of the devil; I believe that if god exists, then they can be another way to communicate with him/her.

[pie2]

s/God/evidence/

 

What does that mean?

 

I want to understand the whole post...its sentiment is such a rarity!

[M30USA]

We all have our own spiritual journeys.

 

And all roads lead to Rome...which is why so few people ever get there.

[amaysngrace]

Hmm...be very careful about claiming that. It sounds good on the surface but upon examination it fails. I will give you a specific example. There are those who claim that Christians and Muslims believe in the same God.

 

Yes they are all the same God. There are too many similarities between the religions, not just these two but all religions, to satisfy me.

 

Like I said before, I don't dwell that much on the differences that separate but rather the similarities that unite.

 

Religion is, after all, MAN's interpretation of God's(Allah,Budda,Jehovah,etc) Word.

[pie2]

pie2, it's a regular expression. In this simple context, it means match all occurrences of "God" and replace it with "evidence".

 

Ahhh, gotcha! Thanks

 

Oh, but now it doesn't make as much sense...evidence cannot direct us (as in playing an active role in determining our future), as God can.

Edited September 17, 2012 by pie2

[amaysngrace]

No, I have a problem with tribal mentalities: those who don't judge right and wrong on its own merits, but who engage in groupthink and treat other groups like lepers.

 

I don't know Joe. The question has been posed throughout this thread if someone of faith has hurt you in your life. Someone who you view as evil but they themselves claim to be righteous.

 

My daughter has an expression "just because you're in the garage doesn't make you a car" and I couldn't agree more. There are many people who profess righteousness vocally but their actions are not kind.

 

I hope that you realize that even people of faith see the hypocrisy.

 

But I think it would be kind of you not to group those who are religious hypocrites with believers who try to do what's right.

[amaysngrace]

But where is the accountability on the other side? What are you doing about the hypocrisy that you see?

 

I've called people out before on claiming Christianity while being unkind. In life and also on this forum.

 

Some who post and post bible quotes have gotten a remark or two from me only because I think it's rude to try and jam your beliefs down someone else's throat. I don't do it and don't like it when people do it to me which is why I probably don't do it. lol

[Eve]

Well, I think that we should call each out but still be humble enough to know that we do not know it all either.

 

Within scripture forgiving others seems pretty central, with blessings not being released until the offending person is prayed for/released by the person whom they have hurt. Ideally, I would say that it is good to want someone to be better/restored, even if we ourselves are unable to help them.

 

Can't remember where I read it but I found an illustration using Maslow very useful.

 

Abraham Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs and diagrams of Maslow's motivational theory - pyramid diagrams of Maslow's theory

 

Essentially, the illustration was that for some self actualisation is where they start, so the triangle is (for them) tipped upside down. Others try and work through the stages as the design stands - at the stages of biological and physiological needs firstly. So, practically it is wise to be aware of what our presenting needs are in order to reach common ground.

 

Take care,

Eve x

[mercy]

So that means approving of lame insults just because the person doing the insulting believes in the same god as you?

 

 

 

 

I was just kidding. I'm sorry if I offended you. No I don't approve of any insults tossed your way or others way.

 

It's been hinted to on here that I don't have the same God. So there you go....

 

I think I have mentioned it before but my parents were civil rights activists. The loud debates in our home were not that people didn't believe the way we did but their right to believe, live, the way they chose to live.

 

Most of your posts are really thought provoking and make me think, which is something I have always enjoyed.

 

The greatest happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved — loved for ourselves, or rather, loved in spite of ourselves. Victor Hugo

[M30USA]

Yes they are all the same God. There are too many similarities between the religions, not just these two but all religions, to satisfy me.

 

Like I said before, I don't dwell that much on the differences that separate but rather the similarities that unite.

 

Religion is, after all, MAN's interpretation of God's(Allah,Budda,Jehovah,etc) Word.

 

The devil is in the details, literally.

 

Satan is the master of counterfeits. He doesn't deceive by denying, he deceives by confusing. He will have his OWN messiah, you can be sure of that. This counterfeit messiah will be the Antichrist.

[amaysngrace]

So are you saying all these are different interpretations of Christianity or Judaism?

 

Yes that's what I believe. I believe things got lost in translation but it is all the same God.

 

Although I have to admit I've been doing a lot of reading up on Atheism today. I am not exactly sure what sparked me to but I am finding it very interesting.

 

Maybe there is someone who could recommend a good book for me? I'd be interested to learn more to broaden my view.

[thatone]

no, there can be no common ground.

 

the french had to have a full blown civil war to get rid of the entrenched god + king government that oppressed them, then get rid of the oppressive replacement, before they returned to some semblance of civility.

 

the US had to explicitly deny religion a place in its government after the US revolution to prevent a return to witchcraft trials and puritans executing quakers or vice versa.

 

religion must die before the human race advances. thankfully it is beginning to do so, it can't survive in western democracies post 'information age'. matter of time.

[Eve]

In summary, common ground can probably only be expressed from a legal perspective. People should be able to think what they want/practice their faith without having to answer to anyone, unless they do crazy ****. As long as that is in place, I really don't care.

 

The worst thing possible would be if we had to forcibly adhere to each others ways.

 

*Shudder*

 

Realistically the medium of friendship and fellowhip provide ample room for individuals to create a means for 'truths' to be shared and for the most part is not something easily faked... though it is faked by many. So, in real life I will continue to opt for that level of interaction. H'mmmm, maybe the call for 'common ground' really is just navel gazing?

 

Take care,

Eve x

[BetheButterfly]

no, there can be no common ground.

 

the french had to have a full blown civil war to get rid of the entrenched god + king government that oppressed them, then get rid of the oppressive replacement, before they returned to some semblance of civility.

 

the US had to explicitly deny religion a place in its government after the US revolution to prevent a return to witchcraft trials and puritans executing quakers or vice versa.

 

religion must die before the human race advances. thankfully it is beginning to do so, it can't survive in western democracies post 'information age'. matter of time.

 

Thankfully most Western countries have the right to freedom of religion. Sadly, in many other countries, that freedom is not given.

 

However, in the USA, the rights of freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, and freedom of press are guaranteed, as well as others. That is why thankfully, people of all beliefs can live together in mutual respect and peace. It is possible and doable, when people's hearts are caring.

[thatone]

freedom of religion is all fine and good, but religion can't sit idly by. it has to exploit its power.

 

again i'll use the example i've posted here before. i have friends who are alive because of stem cell treatment for cancer. if US christianity had their way, those friends would be dead.

 

all for the church's political causes.

 

show me a church that doesn't dabble in politics and i'll show them tolerance. outside of that i cheer for their eventual ruin.

[Lobouspo]

freedom of religion is all fine and good, but religion can't sit idly by. it has to exploit its power.

 

again i'll use the example i've posted here before. i have friends who are alive because of stem cell treatment for cancer. if US christianity had their way, those friends would be dead.

 

all for the church's political causes.

 

show me a church that doesn't dabble in politics and i'll show them tolerance. outside of that i cheer for their eventual ruin.

So do you feel people like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson who promulgate left wing causes in the name of religion are just as bad?

[Feelin Frisky]

Ok, do you have a family member/someone known to you who you would say displays elements of ego-centrism, narcissism and paranoid delusion and is this person a person of faith? If yes, do they have a medical diagnosis?

 

Just curious. I remember you posting something about a sister...

 

Take care,

Eve x

 

Yes, I have four sisters and three brothers. Only one--a sister--is a religious nut. I love her and she is a very gentle and sweet person. She drags religion into everything though and it's rather nauseating. But she is not gruff and dogmatic about it--she married a guy however who IS just that way. And he wants complete dominion over her and the kids--to get that he moved them all to Oklahoma out of the range of influences of the rest of his and her families. He's a tyrant and wants to live just like a cultist or practitioner of Sharia law--although he is not Muslim. He fails to see however that his belief in "god's law which puts him in authority over his wife is the same thing that is practiced in other religions in which women are treated as "lesser thans".

 

All this aside, my point about religion being somewhat of a mish-mosh of Jewish faith-lore and mental illness misinterpreted as divine intervention is evident every time you see those guys rocking back and forth and muttering prayers--be it at the wailing wall in Israel, a local synagogue or any one of thousands of madrases (Koran schools where kids pray and rock like people afflicted with tardive dyskinesia). The issue is that this religion sees human beings like you and me being at the center of the cosmos where everything exists as providence to us. The truth is that the universe operate on its own schedule and does not care about us. The universe existed ten billion years before our sun and solar system formed. And with just a few variables we would not exist at all. I could talk for hours about how this assumption about our place in the grand scheme of things and our differing versions eventuate into some people becoming very toxic if not deadly to others but I'm not on a mission to disindoctinate believers. Everyone who will challenge the handed-down faith they have based their world views on can only deal with the process piecemeal on their own. It takes time and many won't ever let go. I promise to be kind and tolerant to them. I hope they don't presume that I can be swayed to reindoctinate myself with beliefs I have long labored to disabuse myself of--like ripping my way out of a "second placenta" into truth on its own terms.

[Anela]

I recently read that the rocking whilst praying, puts the people into a meditative state - and that can be healthy. Just as painting or dancing can sometimes be described as an active meditation (that's the way it felt for me).