Can we find common ground?

[strongnrelaxed]

Yes that's what I believe. I believe things got lost in translation but it is all the same God.

 

Although I have to admit I've been doing a lot of reading up on Atheism today. I am not exactly sure what sparked me to but I am finding it very interesting.

 

Maybe there is someone who could recommend a good book for me? I'd be interested to learn more to broaden my view.

 

This may be one of the most courageous and encouraging posts I have read in years. Yes, there are many good books about Atheism. Anything by Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens are good. The God Delusion and God is not Great are good starters.

 

But honestly the thing that helped the last veil of ignorance fall from my eyes was the bible itself. I have never, ever once met a Christian who was actually familiar with the ENTIRE bible. I have never read it from end to end, but boy oh boy have I looked beyond what they taught me in 12 years of Catholic school.

 

So maybe that is something to consider -if you haven't already read it.

[strongnrelaxed]

What about those that came before crhistianity and judaism? Are they just completely false or how do you explain those?

 

All religions are religions. They are belief systems that are the best attempts at the time to explain nature and provide moral guidance.

 

Over time religions have come and gone. So too will Christianity, Islam and the rest. It is just a matter of time.

 

The problem is that believers are being used and abused to horrible ends and they are the first to proclaim support for their abusers!

 

It is just a horrible trick on humanity. Why would a noble being perpetrate such disgusting evils on its own creations? Please do not give me the "mysterious ways" If a simple human life form like me can understand how wrong this all is, then I am sure an all powerful being can figure it out too.

[Mme. Chaucer]

But honestly the thing that helped the last veil of ignorance fall from my eyes was the bible itself. I have never, ever once met a Christian who was actually familiar with the ENTIRE bible. I have never read it from end to end, but boy oh boy have I looked beyond what they taught me in 12 years of Catholic school.

 

So maybe that is something to consider -if you haven't already read it.

 

I'm certainly not Christian and I have read the entire Bible, and more than one version of the Bible. I took a course of studying the Bible in college as part of my literature degree.

 

My husband KNOWS the Bible inside and out. His father was a Baptist pastor and his knowledge of it and ability to discuss any part of it in depth, from various angles, and even critically was amazing. Admittedly there is a pronounced emphasis on the New Testament.

 

No offense to Catholics, but that religion is not known for leaving "the word of God" in the hands of the parishioners for their own perusal. Catholicism prefers to do the "translating" and teaching FOR the faithful. So, if the majority of the Christians you have known are Catholic, it's normal that they are not very conversant about the book, but there are plenty of Christians who are amazingly so.

[strongnrelaxed]

I'm certainly not Christian and I have read the entire Bible, and more than one version of the Bible. I took a course of studying the Bible in college as part of my literature degree.

 

My husband KNOWS the Bible inside and out. His father was a Baptist pastor and his knowledge of it and ability to discuss any part of it in depth, from various angles, and even critically was amazing. Admittedly there is a pronounced emphasis on the New Testament.

 

No offense to Catholics, but that religion is not known for leaving "the word of God" in the hands of the parishioners for their own perusal. Catholicism prefers to do the "translating" and teaching FOR the faithful. So, if the majority of the Christians you have known are Catholic, it's normal that they are not very conversant about the book, but there are plenty of Christians who are amazingly so.

 

If you read the bible critically, you would have to concede that it is a book of unspeakable horrors, cruelty and disgusting sexual practices. That is undeniable.

 

Now if you say that these things are just symbolic, then you are on a dangerous slippery slope. You now have to justify how and why one thing is literal but incest and fratricide condoned by god herself are symbolic.

 

Good luck.

[Mme. Chaucer]

If you read the bible critically, you would have to concede that it is a book of unspeakable horrors, cruelty and disgusting sexual practices. That is undeniable.

 

Wait. Didn't you just post upthread that you have NOT read the entire bible yourself? I don't think you're someone with whom I will be having an interesting discussion on the good book.

 

Also, I haven't written a word in this thread about my opinions of the many different things I read in the bible. It's not appropriate for you to be telling me what I "have to concede," what is "undeniable," and what I "have to justify."

 

Now if you say that these things are just symbolic, then you are on a dangerous slippery slope. You now have to justify how and why one thing is literal but incest and fratricide condoned by god herself are symbolic.

 

I can't make heads or tails out of that paragraph, but lets just agree that YOU can concede, deny, and justify whatever, however you wish, but maybe you ought to actually read the bible before venturing there.

 

You certainly are a man who sets great store by your own half-baked opinions about things! Sheesh!

[Eve]

freedom of religion is all fine and good, but religion can't sit idly by. it has to exploit its power.

 

again i'll use the example i've posted here before. i have friends who are alive because of stem cell treatment for cancer. if US christianity had their way, those friends would be dead.

 

all for the church's political causes.

 

show me a church that doesn't dabble in politics and i'll show them tolerance. outside of that i cheer for their eventual ruin.

 

H'mmm, no, I am still going to go with the idea of the law being sufficient in these matters and would assess that what you have stated is not an arrestable offence, so they ALL had the right to be there and give their opinion.

 

Altogether, I would say that there were many people around the table who were cautious about stem cell research. Quakers are well respected in social and political fields. I am glad they are active and present within debates. Please remember that the Church/religious organisations are often present at the point of the physical needs of others. So far I have not seen any atheist group do anything other than run people down with their mouths. Are they there for the orphan, the person in prison, the person who is dying? Do you want the Church to stop these activities too?

 

The point really is that you want the Church to go to ruin, nothing more. To me that is an extreme belief and if you spouted it in on my road, I would be happy for you to be arrested. I think people should keep their views to themselves, unless asked. I think the freedom of speech thing has taken over rational thought too much in America.

 

Rudeness is rudeness.

 

Same when people start shouting **** about Jesus, which I have only ever experienced by a mormon who seemed to be an American tourist of some kind..

 

Goodness peace..

 

Recently I read somewhere that some group of atheists (can't remember where in America this happened) wanted statues of Jesus that have been in place for years in a remote walking area pulled down because they were offended by it. They said they had to walk in a different direction because of the statues! They were using some political process or another to justify their plan.

 

Someone needs to teach people to stop being so antagonistic. Where I live it's called 'making out'. Nothing is wrong with the person, at the root they are just complainers who exaggerate everything. I firmly believe that both the religious and non religious can cloak themselves as such and the Bible warns about such people, practices and governmental designs. This needs to be dealt with at the level of individual to individual - not within calling for people to be somehow shamed/disbanded.

 

We are a mixed bag of good and bad and should really aim to be supportive of each other wherever possible but the OP and others here who have the same views - I would take you to Court in an instant if you spouted the things you say whilst I am at work, or going about my business, or your being anywhere near my babies. Religious hatred is not good and should be stamped out.

 

The sinsister part for me is how such calls for the Church to vanish actually matches Bible prophesy of the lead up to the final battle. So, I don't know, maybe we are more on track than we realise?

 

Take care,

Eve x

[strongnrelaxed]

Wait. Didn't you just post upthread that you have NOT read the entire bible yourself? I don't think you're someone with whom I will be having an interesting discussion on the good book.

[snip]

I can't make heads or tails out of that paragraph, but lets just agree that YOU can concede, deny, and justify whatever, however you wish, but maybe you ought to actually read the bible before venturing there.

 

You certainly are a man who sets great store by your own half-baked opinions about things! Sheesh!

 

I stopped being surprised at this sort of response a long time ago. But it still gets me once in a while.

 

So people claim that there is this invisible omnipotent magic man in the sky. I say I doubt it and I would like to see some proof please. No proof is ever produced, save some passages in a book of hodgepodge stories written over the course of several milennia by multiple authors and translated numerous times and interpreted differently by literally hundreds of sects.

 

At the same time, the believers in the invisible magic man turn to me and tell ME to prove that the magic man does not exist. I cannot prove that there is no god, any more than I can prove that there is no such thing as invisible pink unicorns that eat rainbows and poop butterflies or a one eyed one horned flying purple people eater.

 

And my honest attempts to challenge this thinking makes ME a man who creates "half-baked opinions about things! Sheesh!"

 

Wow. Just wow. This is where we are in America today.

 

And we wonder why the world is going to hell in a hand basket.

[strongnrelaxed]

Excellent post.

 

I'm not sure if common ground is possible anymore. Upon going into this thread, I actually thought if certain posts stopped happening, it could be. But this thread has proven, ironically, that it can't be found. I still have hope, but it's diminishing.

 

I think the issue hinges on respect. This next point is going to come off as biased, but it really isn't, at least not intentionally so, but I've made an observation about how posts and "posters" are interacting with each other on LS. I've noticed that a lot more of the theists are open to offering respect, and discussion, and the atheists are keen to attack the opinions/beliefs of the theists. Ironically, the atheists are doing exactly what they complain about theists doing-shoving their views down people's throats.

 

There are so many contradictions in this thread that it would take a long time to point them out. It might be worth it if those reading would openly consider that there is room for other perspectives. But I too am losing faith. But I can say that I tried.

 

So what I have learned so far is the following:

 

- Pointing out blatant and pervasive inconsistencies is seen as "shoving views" down throats

- Posts claiming that atheists - our fellow Americans - should be arrested for daring to question these things is met with "likes" and support

- Freedom of speech is now inconsistent with rational thought

- Atheism, which is by its very definition the OPPOSITE of a belief, is not seen just another belief.

- An atheist started this thread trying to honestly find some common ground and a theist later stated that this is not possible, and then blamed the atheists for making it so.

- Honest questions about belief systems that seem bizarre and twisted (dead bloody corpses hung on crosses and displayed everywhere you turn, for starters) to a normal human beings are seen as "attacks"

 

I will not quit on you. I will not give up on you. You are fellow human beings damn it. Once and for all times. You are fellow human being with the same strengths, weaknesses, frailties, beauty and needs as the rest of us.

 

You have been raised to believe in things that make no sense to me. Not even a little bit. I was raised with those same beliefs. But so much horror has been inflicted on so many children. So many rapes of young boys and girls. I cannot believe I have to still sit here and point out such things.

 

To my thinking, anyone who supports such organizations is a supporter of the behaviors and atrocities. You cannot claim to be a neo nazi and try to distance yourself from Hitler and the Holocaust. It is just not going to fly with me. In the same way, you cannot claim to be a Christian, and then distance yourself from the atrocities committed in the name of Christianity. It is not going to fly with me.

 

But I have hope. I am holding on as best I can.

 

Unfortunately I am feeling more and more alone in this. Perhaps we are all doomed to live in a theocracy. I am not made such that I can get on board with such a thing.

 

Hate on me if you will. But I see this all as wrong and sick and twisted.

[mercy]

I stopped being surprised at this sort of response a long time ago. But it still gets me once in a while.

 

So people claim that there is this invisible omnipotent magic man in the sky. I say I doubt it and I would like to see some proof please. No proof is ever produced, save some passages in a book of hodgepodge stories written over the course of several milennia by multiple authors and translated numerous times and interpreted differently by literally hundreds of sects.

 

At the same time, the believers in the invisible magic man turn to me and tell ME to prove that the magic man does not exist. I cannot prove that there is no god, any more than I can prove that there is no such thing as invisible pink unicorns that eat rainbows and poop butterflies or a one eyed one horned flying purple people eater.

 

And my honest attempts to challenge this thinking makes ME a man who creates "half-baked opinions about things! Sheesh!"

 

Wow. Just wow. This is where we are in America today.

 

And we wonder why the world is going to hell in a hand basket.

 

It is not the job of another to prove or disprove what another believes.

[strongnrelaxed]

 

[snip] "if you spouted it in on my road, I would be happy for you to be arrested. I think people should keep their views to themselves, unless asked. I think the freedom of speech thing has taken over rational thought too much in America. ..I firmly believe that both the religious and non religious can cloak themselves as such and the Bible warns about such people, practices and governmental designs... I would take you to Court in an instant if you spouted the things you say whilst I am at work, or going about my business....The sinsister part for me is how such calls for the Church to vanish actually matches Bible prophesy of the lead up to the final battle. So, I don't know, maybe we are more on track than we realise?"

 

Eve, I want to believe that deep down inside you are a good person. I think I am right about this.

 

But if you were to read your words above as if they were posted by another person, do you see how truly frightening and scary those words are? Do you realize what you are saying?

 

Do not attack me for my editing. It is not like your entire thread does not reflect this tone.

 

You are saying that the people who challenge religious dogma and ancient mythologies are taking us on a road to "the final battle" - a battle that non believers don't support or agree with or want anything to do with. A final battle that was created by your forebears not atheists. We want nothing to do with final solutions, armageddon or any of it.

 

This scares and disturbs me so deeply that I am truly losing my faith in all of humanity. How would seemingly good people like you write such things without the slightest hesitation?

 

Maybe you are right and this "final battle" is going to take place one way or the other. I just wish that there were a place where atheist, honest people, smart people, good loving innocent people and non believers of all sorts could go and hide until the religious people all destroy themselves.

 

Unfortunately, it never ends there as history shows. You would find us and force us to submit and it would start all over again.

[strongnrelaxed]

It is not the job of another to prove or disprove what another believes.

 

I disagree. If it were not for the myriad scientists and rebels throughout the ages literally risking their lives to disprove myths, you would have not antibiotics, electricity, or heat in your house. The world would still be flat and the earth would still be the center of the universe - just to name a few of the thousands of advances in medial science, physics, astronomy, etc.

 

It is my strong value that is wrong to sit idly by and watch evil being perpetrated and to say nothing. It is wrong to allow people to be blinded by dogma and ancient belief systems that have created so much harm and to say nothing about it. That is just wrong. Islam is an example of a belief system that many Americans can clearly see is destructive to the believers but great for the leaders. This is blatantly obvious to the casual observer. Believers are not casual observers of their own belief systems and that is part of the problem.

 

Mormonism, Scientology, Greek and Roman mythology - all of these belief systems seem bizarre to me. I just don't get it.

 

It is jaw dropping to me that I still have these conversations. We know better. There is so much science, and knowledge and information. We know better.

 

We know better Mercy. Yet here we are.

 

Religious beliefs have such a tight grip on humanity, I doubt that we will ever

be free from this plague.

[mercy]

I disagree. If it were not for the myriad scientists and rebels throughout the ages literally risking their lives to disprove myths, you would have not antibiotics, electricity, or heat in your house. The world would still be flat and the earth would still be the center of the universe - just to name a few of the thousands of advances in medial science, physics, astronomy, etc.

 

It is my strong value that is wrong to sit idly by and watch evil being perpetrated and to say nothing. It is wrong to allow people to be blinded by dogma and ancient belief systems that have created so much harm and to say nothing about it. That is just wrong. Islam is an example of a belief system that many Americans can clearly see is destructive to the believers but great for the leaders. This is blatantly obvious to the casual observer. Believers are not casual observers of their own belief systems and that is part of the problem.

 

Mormonism, Scientology, Greek and Roman mythology - all of these belief systems seem bizarre to me. I just don't get it.

 

It is jaw dropping to me that I still have these conversations. We know better. There is so much science, and knowledge and information. We know better.

 

We know better Mercy. Yet here we are.

 

Religious beliefs have such a tight grip on humanity, I doubt that we will ever

be free from this plague.

 

Well I knew better than to comment but I did it anyway.

 

Close your jaw.

[Mme. Chaucer]

It might be worth it if those reading would openly consider that there is room for other perspectives.

 

:laugh:

 

Oh My GOD!

 

Are you blind, man?

 

I think everyone here is fine with you having your "other perspective."

 

How about you extending that to other people yourself?

 

It's kind of freaking me out, the way you write some very poorly thought out and basically puerile rant and expect people to throw out all of their (in many cases) carefully considered and examined beliefs and perspectives because …

 

YOU SAY YOU'RE RIGHT AND THEY'RE WRONG???

 

Dude, we can have discussions about theology and the bible with profoundly educated scholars and great thinkers, or at least listen to them or read their writing. You have not read the bible and can't even share your thoughts and opinions clearly, or without putting down those of other people. YOU are not worthy of having such discussions with. And it's NOT because everybody else is close minded and living in lala land while you are the voice of wisdom!

 

It's because you are full of bologna!

 

Go learn something and gain some humility and an ability to listen. Then maybe some people will have a respectful conversation with you about god, religion, marriage, men, women, or whatever.

[BetheButterfly]

Me personally? No.

 

 

It would be nice if they actually took some sort of stand against it then. As an example, we recently had a couple of atheists barge in on threads and make relentless off-topic attacks against Christianity and religion. I called them on it and reported a number of their posts, and as a result, one of them got severely butthurt and left these forums entirely while the other ones seem to have settled down a bit, and on a whole the environment is a lot better.

 

But where is the accountability on the other side? What are you doing about the hypocrisy that you see? I can't see anything besides a great big circle jerk.

 

Thank you for standing up for Theists.

 

About accountability from the "other side", what helped me understand that I was not doing right in judging another poster and getting mad include:

 

1. Praying and reading Jesus' command to not judge (Matthew 7:1; Luke 6:37)

2. Reading Eve, Anela, and Final Word's posts. Even though they didn't specifically call me out on my actions, they did hold me accountable through their example.

 

So sometimes, it's not just a matter of getting after someone. If Final Word had gotten after me, I might have gotten defensive. His example however showed me, "hey girl, straighten up", and God convicted me while I was praying.

 

That's one thing I am growing in... that sometimes it's even best not to scold. I am pretty bad about scolding people. As the eldest girl and a built-in babysitter, I'm used to scolding people. I still have to work on just simply following what I believe and not getting after other people. It's a work in progress for many people.

 

So anyways, even if you don't see accountability on the Theists' side, in undercurrents (spiritual waves in a sense), it's there...

[amaysngrace]

Yes, there are many good books about Atheism. Anything by Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens are good. The God Delusion and God is not Great are good starters.

 

Thank you. I will definitely look into them.

[TheFinalWord]

Thank you for standing up for Theists.

 

About accountability from the "other side", what helped me understand that I was not doing right in judging another poster and getting mad include:

 

1. Praying and reading Jesus' command to not judge (Matthew 7:1; Luke 6:37)

2. Reading Eve, Anela, and Final Word's posts. Even though they didn't specifically call me out on my actions, they did hold me accountable through their example.

 

So sometimes, it's not just a matter of getting after someone. If Final Word had gotten after me, I might have gotten defensive. His example however showed me, "hey girl, straighten up", and God convicted me while I was praying.

 

That's one thing I am growing in... that sometimes it's even best not to scold. I am pretty bad about scolding people. As the eldest girl and a built-in babysitter, I'm used to scolding people. I still have to work on just simply following what I believe and not getting after other people. It's a work in progress for many people.

 

So anyways, even if you don't see accountability on the Theists' side, in undercurrents (spiritual waves in a sense), it's there...

 

You're sweet BeTheButterfly. Well, I have not always been so good at that myself Your posts have helped me as well in that regard as well. We are all a work in progress.

 

"As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another."

 

Much wisdom in what you said about prayer and the capacity to love one's enemies. Loving someone that compares your beliefs to Hitler or Al Qaeda is not exactly a natural response

 

What does it mean to love my enemies? (Ask Dr. Stanley) - YouTube

[Feelin Frisky]

I recently read that the rocking whilst praying, puts the people into a meditative state - and that can be healthy. Just as painting or dancing can sometimes be described as an active meditation (that's the way it felt for me).

 

While that may be so, the feverish pace at which the rocking is routinely performed while incantating Torah or Koran verses implies ritual as opposed to simple relaxation to get into a meditative state. And there is simply no denying that the same motion is seen in certain kinds of sever mental illness. Obviously no one can point to the day and the person who started this ritual but when people believe in "super-nature" and "prophets" and divine communication or "revelation" to "selected" persons, then it is not a stretch to think that somewhere all the line of generations of unscientific people, bouts of mental illness in which a person both rocks aggressively like that and verbally ejaculates his or her paranoid delusional conflations of religious folk-lore it has been taken by some that what's going on is not illness but indeed a supernatural episode. If you tie that together with the fact that western religions view human beings as the center of the universe and reason why everything else exists you have a recipe for use of religion as a tool of power by some over others.

 

If what I said is perceived as some kind of insult, I apologize. Just calling it as I see it.

[BetheButterfly]

I don't hate you or anyone for that matter. I don't even dislike you. I just sometimes hope that you would at least try and engage in a discussion with people, instead of trying to make us see everything from just your perspective.

 

Agreed. I don't hate Atheists either, not even "militant Atheists." I don't appreciate my beliefs getting mocked, but I'm human. I have no desire to hurt anybody though, no matter what they say about God.

 

The world is a wonderful place, filled with wonderful people from all different walks of life and from all different cultures. You're missing out if you paint entire groups of people as "bad" because of their beliefs. Just like I'd be missing out if I refused to be friends with those of an atheistic mindset.

100% agreed!!!

 

I do not particularly care if you want to associate me with those atrocities, simply because I carry the title of Christian. Simply because I follow Jesus Christ, and love Him. I can see (after many posts trying) that you are not going to budge from that position, and see how ridiculous it actually is. Nonetheless, most people know it's preposterous to associate people with crimes that they did not commit, nor have a say in committing, simply because they share a religion with those that did. And that reassures me that sanity is still left in the world.

I 100% agree with the part I boldened above! To generalize that all people of any group (any ethnic group, gender, social status, nationality, lifestyle, or belief) are bad or evil just because some do/have done evil, that is not accurate. A person is only responsible for his or her actions/reactions, not for what other people do.

 

 

By shoving views down people's throats, I meant that you consistently and insistently prod at people's faiths, willing them to see things your way. You blindly ignore the rights of the other person to religious freedom, and see no problem with that. I do not wish to shove my beliefs down your throat, at all. I respect that you're an atheist, and that is your right. You don't seem to be here to engage with people, only to rant about what you believe is so bad about religion.

Yep, if people want to be Atheists, that's fine. They can, or Agnostic or whatever it is they think concerning God!

 

I do not ask that my beliefs make sense to you, just that you respect them, and let me have them. Your beliefs do not make sense to me, but I respect it, and happily allow you to have them. Just like I'd allow people to believe in pink, flying unicorns that poop glitter. So long as it doesn't hurt anyone, and enriches a person's life, what's it anyone else's business?

{I quite like the idea of flying pink unicorns }

Sigh... I would love to be friends with a flying pink unicorn that poops glitter... sounds adorable!

 

I wish they did exist lol!!! (I also wish Avatar's alien planet existed, though I wouldn't want mean ole earthlings trying to steal their planet's resources. I adore the idea of the physical/emotional connection bond thing with the animals and each other. I LOVE the flying lizards!!! ... and the ground lighting up at night, and the amazing plants lol. Hats off to the creators of the fictional Avatar's alien planet!!! (I forgot the name of the planet, but it's oh so cool!)

[Eve]

I'm sorry, but I simply don't believe you.

 

Tell me, where were people pulling Eve into line when she said that people should be arrested for saying things would be better if the world was not (or less) religious? That's an absolutely abhorrent sentiment. Instead, it got likes. Not one Christian said a single thing.

 

To be blunt (as I always am), that is just spineless. I am right to be disappointed, and your hollow reassurances are meaningless in the absence of action.

 

Selective reading skills? You omit the part where I feel the same about religious folk doing the same thing.

 

There is no point talking to persons such as yourself, lol.

 

Take care,

Eve x

[Eve]

So, are you saying that you would want someone spouting hatred at groups of people? Be it atheists against religious people, or religious people against homosexuals, for example? So long as someone could prove that, by their scope of belief, it was a legitimate view how would anyone ever defend/protect against people spouting hatred?

 

People who shoot their mouths off in hate within public arenas should be arrested for doing so. From whichever side of the fence they are on. Remember what happened in Germany, is all I'm saying. When someone who preaches hate is allowed and given a platform to preach only trouble and hate can come from that.

 

Thanks, I didn't think what I said was that hard to understand.

 

 

Dodgy people are not that difficult to identify. I am happy for them all to be chucked into prison, lol. They can argue their nonsense in there as they are not doing anyone any good out here.

 

The Westboro's and that atheist group I mentioned earlier would be the first to go if I had my way. 10 years, hard labour should do it.

 

Take care,

Eve x

[Eve]

No, because the original comment that sparked this discussion had nothing to do with hatred at all, let alone directed against people. Let's have a quick reminder:

 

 

 

If you can find "hatred against people" anywhere in there, then you have lost the ability to perceive correctly. I mean, how is it even any different to the remainder of Eve's "each to their own" rant?

 

Also, be careful of the precedent you set by hitching your wagon to Eve's ridiculous views, because it boxes you in a corner the moment you start expressing ideas like "how much better would it be if everybody was <insert my religion here>", because that sentiment leads to the ruin of every other religion and alternative philosophy out there. Is that sentiment equivalent to "spewing hatred at Jews, Hindus, atheists, Buddhists, ..."?

 

You are far too quick and eager to attach the extreme label of "hatred" at others, even in the face of entirely harmless sentiments.

 

Sir, you are a hypocrite.

 

Take care,

Eve x

[thatone]

So do you feel people like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson who promulgate left wing causes in the name of religion are just as bad?

 

i have no political allegiance, only dissent. i see political choices as "who is doing the most harm?" white evangelicals are doing the most harm at the moment, so i want them to lose, i don't particularly care who the winner is.

 

since you mention it, from the perspective of someone who will not ever attend a church service, my only contact with believers is when they knock on my door. a half dozen or so solicitors for protestant local churches have stopped by my house in recent years.

 

the white protestant ones tend to start off with "have you accepted jesus christ as your savior", which seems confrontational to me, and i always answer truthfullly with a simple "no". that is followed by attempts to convert me from various ways, but i've always just politely told them that i don't believe and am not interested. they have never seemed interested in anything other than a sort of club membership.

 

the black protestant solicitors did get their foot in the door last time one stopped by. it was the same sort of thing, but it started out with a pitch about how they were trying to raise money to restore a park/playground in their neighborhood. when he got into the religious bit i also told him i don't believe, and we had a short debate about it, but it was polite and neither of us got upset with the other. even though i don't believe in his religion, i did stop him as he turned away and gave him a hundred bucks. did he spend it on the playground? maybe, i don't know. but at least he had a cause other than judging me and people like me, one with a practical benefit. and he was a lot less confrontational than his typical white counterparts.

 

the above scenarios are true in the major cities in the southern US that i've lived in. white protestant charity is extended to themselves, they are exclusionary, and are offering membership in their 'club', and membership entails agreeing with them and supporting their political causes. black protestant charity is sometimes aimed at improving their neighborhoods, and is not as exclusionary in those cases.

 

so while i agree with neither on religious grounds, i have less disdain for one of them.

[mercy]

Why do we even care what another believes? Why the need to push whatever beliefs we have on another? That just seems so foreign to me.

 

All this you're wrong I'm right...really?

 

One of my parents best friends was an atheist and guess what I would have never known except for the fact that they were protecting his rights. He had the same moral compass as my parents, raised his kids in a sound environment and adored and respected his wife. He didn't lamblast my parents for their beliefs nor did they debate evolution. They drank a few beers and argued sports.

 

"What is a Sufi?

One who does not separate himself

from others by opinion or dogma;

and who realizes the heart as the Shrine of God.

What does the Sufi desire?

To remove the false self and discover God within.

What does the Sufi teach?

Happiness.

What does the Sufi seek?

Illumination.

What does the Sufi see?

Harmony

What does the Sufi give?

Love to all created things.

What does the Sufi get?

A greater power of love.

What does the Sufi find?

GOD.

And lose?

self"

Hazrat Inayat Khan

[strongnrelaxed]

Thanks, I didn't think what I said was that hard to understand.

 

 

Dodgy people are not that difficult to identify. I am happy for them all to be chucked into prison, lol. They can argue their nonsense in there as they are not doing anyone any good out here.

 

The Westboro's and that atheist group I mentioned earlier would be the first to go if I had my way. 10 years, hard labour should do it.

 

Take care,

Eve x

 

QuickJoe is not a hypocrite. This name calling is excellent for those who read these posts and might be sitting on the fence about their beliefs.

 

To those of you whose faith is shaky or you have doubts - read what you see here. Do you want to align yourself with people who would hurl such nasty insults at others, and claim that their calm requests for proof are in fact the nasty insults? Do you see how everything gets turned around and twisted to suit the poster? Pay close attention to their words. Ignore me. I could be wrong. But their vile and twisted words are on display for you to see. In fact, ignore everything I say. Just read their words over and over. You will see the pattern.

 

We are having two different discussions here. One is a rational discussion that poses a simple, timeless and still unanswered challenge to believers, which is - Prove it.

 

QJoe and I have said this and so have many others. It is simple - you make astounding claims - wildly unbelievable claims of all sorts, the book supports all sorts of horrors and evils. And all we ask is - prove it.

 

That cannot be done and we all know it.

 

So that is when the emotion, attacks, threats of imprisonment and censorship, nasty language, and the rest of it come in. And it is not QuickJoe or me spouting these threats.

 

There is no proof required of me because I am not making any claims. Almost every single thing I "believe" is provable by science.

 

All we ask is that you "prove it." We challenge you - prove it.

 

And if you quote scriptures, I will start quoting the Lord of the Rings and where does that get us? The proof cannot be self-referential.

 

Joe is capable of defending himself, but I will stand on his side to the death to fight for your freedom to believe what you will. In the meantime you can stand together to call for our imprisonment.

 

Pay attention readers. Pay close attention.

[strongnrelaxed]

Why do we even care what another believes? Why the need to push whatever beliefs we have on another? That just seems so foreign to me.

 

All this you're wrong I'm right...really?

 

One of my parents best friends was an atheist and guess what I would have never known except for the fact that they were protecting his rights. He had the same moral compass as my parents, raised his kids in a sound environment and adored and respected his wife. He didn't lamblast my parents for their beliefs nor did they debate evolution. They drank a few beers and argued sports.

(snip)

 

 

I agree with you mercy. If only it were so easy.

 

Unfortunately for milennia people have been preaching, selling, indoctrinating, going on missions, proselytizing, beseeching, recruiting, abusing, murdering, and otherwise pushing their beliefs on others. It is the ONLY way such preposterous claims can be inculcated in others.

 

I believe that you did not do this. I know that many believers do not. But little by little, many Christians are trying to turn America into a theocracy. I am shocked at this. We went from a nation that valued all religions and in which our founding fathers warned us to never forget the need for the separation of church and state, to a country in which we were "founded on Christian values" and a god fearing, bible believing "one nation under god" (which was added later, by the way).

 

So when you say thing that sum up to "can't we all just get along" I am right there with you. But many of your fellow believers would have be put in jail for siding with the founding fathers.

 

That so few see this scares the bejeezus out of me.