exMMs avoidant behaviors...

[beenburned]

AR,

 

I am very surprised that no one has mentioned the fact of him having a new OW!

 

Did he get her after you broke it off with him?

 

Do you know anything about this guy's past history? He sounds like he possibly could be a serial cheater!

[LaCurieuse]

Hey AnotherRound,

 

I read this entire thread and found it quite intruiging because I see a lot of myself in you.

 

One thing that bothers me when reading the back and forth is - what about you? Where do you fit in? What are your expectations for yourself, your own life? What do you really want for yourself, independent from him? I realize you can't possibly explain your life on a thread in a forum and that we as readers only have a piece of the puzzle, but I just wanted to tell you that your posts are so focused on him, that it makes me worry that you are forgetting to focus on yourself and your own life.

 

It sounds like it may be your job (crisis line?) to help others deal with their problems, but don't forget that sometimes, it's easier to focus on everyone else's problems, as to avoid our own deep-rooted issues. I know that you already know everything I am telling you, but I thought maybe I could offer you a friendly reminder...to take of yourself.

 

I hope you will give yourself as much space and love as you have given him.

 

Hugs

Edited September 15, 2012 by LaCurieuse
edited

[AnotherRound]

Hey AnotherRound,

 

I read this entire thread and found it quite intruiging because I see a lot of myself in you.

 

One thing that bothers me when reading the back and forth is - what about you? Where do you fit in? What are your expectations for yourself, your own life? What do you really want for yourself, independent from him? I realize you can't possibly explain your life on a thread in a forum and that we as readers only have a piece of the puzzle, but I just wanted to tell you that your posts are so focused on him, that it makes me worry that you are forgetting to focus on yourself and your own life.

 

It sounds like it may be your job (crisis line?) to help others deal with their problems, but don't forget that sometimes, it's easier to focus on everyone else's problems, as to avoid our own deep-rooted issues. I know that you already know everything I am telling you, but I thought maybe I could offer you a friendly reminder...to take of yourself.

 

I hope you will give yourself as much space and love as you have given him.

 

Hugs

 

Thank you. Yes, I do sometimes need to be reminded to take care of me. I guess I'm talking about him on here a lot, bc this is where I'm venting and processing. IRL, he's not entering into my daily life. I have a lot of down time on my job, so, I think... lol. That's what I do, think, and problem solve.

 

I assure you that my life isn't focused on him, and hasn't been, even while the A was active, even if my posts are. I am running my own business, putting out fires for other people (it's my job, not for fun, lol), going on dates, etc.

 

I am very aware of my own issues, and how they play into my former A with exMM. That's why I'm being cautious, and not making a solid "decision" yet. So much is dependent on how his divorce goes, if these changes in him are permanent or temporary, and only time will tell me those things. So, I'm observing, thinking, analyzing, and weighing my risks. If, in the end, the risk is something I'm willing to take, I will. If not, I won't. I tend to be all in on my decisions bc I have considered them prior to making them, which breeds confidence in what I'm doing.

 

I do appreciate the kind words though, and I will continue to try to keep my thoughts of exMM and his situation to this board, as it does allow me a place to process.

[veryhappy]

If you are open to the idea of having children, being with this guy is a dead end. He won't. You need someone who can at least go with the flow based on what you want. I doubt he's worth the sacrifice. Depending on your age, you might think there's enough time to wait and see, and the older you get that "I'll be okay either way this goes" might not apply anymore.

 

I think you are far too nice to this guy, but that's just my personal reaction to all I've read about him.

[AnotherRound]

This is typical affair speak.

Why would he want or need to be avoidant with you?

 

You're right, there is no need to be avoidant with someone who is willing to communicate, doesn't invalidate your feelings, and is able to communicate on a level that makes avoidance completely unnecessary.

 

You were "together" for seven years, but you were merely an affair partner. You didn't live together day in and day out for decades like a real couple. Never having to directly deal, manage and resolve real life issues and stresses.

 

You say "merely", I say it again, I was in a much better position imo than the BS was (and I say that with the knowledge of being a FBW). I would take the AP role any day over the BW, if they were my only two options. The lesser of the two evils, imo, is the AP. How do you know that we didn't handle day to day issues? Or that we weren't a "real" couple? That's a LOT of assumptions from you based on your very limited idea of what an A is. We dealt with MORE issues than his marriage ever has, hence the reason he was in an A in the first place.

 

It's like having a grandchild - you get to hang out for a little while and then send them home to mommy to deal with the real stuff.

 

Well, he did say that he is discussing with his therapist the fact that he treated his wife like a Mommy figure. So, you may be partially right here.

 

On top of that, you've been his therapist (with benefits) for nearly a decade. And like most "patient/therapist relationships," he can easily have a fairly non-judgmental, conflict avoidant free relationship with you . . . without all those pesky little judgments and conflicts that comes along with having a long-term (real) partner.

 

We didn't avoid conflict, I'm not sure where you got that. Unconditional positive regard is not a negative thing, and yes, it is something that most people are unable to do (you, for instance). It's a very special skill, and one that you obviously don't understand. Just because I can validate any feeling that someone is having does not mean that I always agree with their behaviors and responses, I just don't make judgments. Has that been good for him? Absolutely, as he has never had that before, and as usual, people thrive when given that UPR, it's a proven "technique" and why we use it in our field. Again, you say "real". I assure you, I'm a real person, lol.

 

I would ask to see proof he's going to a professional therapist. He wouldn't be the first fence-sitting MM to make that false claim in order to make himself look "better" in order to secure a back up plan.

 

Again, we live in a very small town. I have a network of colleagues, and we often discuss cases with one another, for feedback and input. You often make fun of what I believe, but you believed a polygraph. So, we just differ on what we consider to be "proof". I will take court records and colleagues word any day over a polygraph, you would not. That's okay. No need to be hostile about it.

 

And regarding the child issue. If your MM didn't want children (and continues to not want children), he should have gotten a vasectomy. It's THAT simple.

 

Maybe. Or maybe, a partner should not make life changing decisions without agreement from their partner? Hmmm? Maybe when she changed her mind, and he didn't, she should have done what needed doing then, finding a new relationship, instead of underhandedly trapping him into something he was not in agreement with? She had many abortions prior to the child, bc they were in agreement at that point. I don't know why she kept getting pregnant, he and I have NEVER gotten pregnant, it's pretty simple to keep from happening (even without a vasectomy). She had the abortions of her own free will, prior to him and then during him, giving the idea that she was in agreement and didn't want children. Then, she changed her mind, and without consulting with her H, she changed both of their lives drastically. You see him at fault, I see her at fault. Again, no reason to be hostile

 

 

It's interesting to me that you read over here, and comment so frequently, as it causes you obvious distress. I'm losing patience with you, very quickly. I wish that when you participated, that you would ADD something to the conversation, I really don't think that's too much to ask on a DISCUSSION board.

[AnotherRound]

AR,

 

I am very surprised that no one has mentioned the fact of him having a new OW!

 

Did he get her after you broke it off with him?

 

Do you know anything about this guy's past history? He sounds like he possibly could be a serial cheater!

 

 

Yes, he got another OW after I ended it with him. He was still not ready to face the inevitable, and he still had needs that were not being met in the marriage. My ending it caused a lot of turmoil in their marriage, as he was upset and that bled into their home life.

 

Yes, I know a lot of his past hx. He and I have discussed it extensively, and how he has avoided ending relationships that he knew were not working for him (not just his marriage, but previously also). He is in IC now to attempt to figure out where this codependency comes from and how he can fix it, if it's possible to fix.

 

I would say that he is a serial cheater. And I have thought of this, regarding if he and I are ever together later. It doesn't scare me. If he is a serial cheater, then I will find out, I will know, and I will move on. He probably doesn't deserve that chance from me, if I were a judgmental person I would think that he does not. But, if I'm willing to give him a chance, knowing all that I know, then it will be nobody's fault but my own if he cheats on me. At that point, I will have a choice to make, and I would end it, bc that set up would not work for me.

 

Right now, I'm just weighing out if it's worth it, in my mind, to give him the chance. I am trying to weigh out how much hurt it could possibly bring me, and if I'm up for it if that does happen. I guess though, I live my life differently than a lot of people in that I don't avoid fearful situations bc of the fear. I tend to take the world as it comes. And as long as I'm not tricked, and I knew going in what my risks were, then I accept the bumps and lumps that may come. And I always learn something from it, so to me, no regrets. I do realize that this is not how many people live their lives, so, I'm aware that it seems foreign to others who are reading. But it has served me well, and I truly have no regrets, as I take something from every single experience, and that is good enough for me.

[AnotherRound]

If you are open to the idea of having children, being with this guy is a dead end. He won't. You need someone who can at least go with the flow based on what you want. I doubt he's worth the sacrifice. Depending on your age, you might think there's enough time to wait and see, and the older you get that "I'll be okay either way this goes" might not apply anymore.

 

I think you are far too nice to this guy, but that's just my personal reaction to all I've read about him.

 

Good point. But, I've always leaned towards not having children, so, we are close on that point. I have no idea if I will change my mind, as whenever I think on it, I do want children... but then, I think about all the work it will take, and it freaks me out, lol. Also, I work with children, mostly adolescents, and tbh, I do not want to raise a teenager! They are vicious creatures! lol I adore them, but to have to deal with that 24/7? Yeah, I'm not sure I want to sign up for that!

 

If I changed my mind, that would be on me, not him. I do not expect other people to chip in on a life time commitment if they aren't willing to do so. If I wanted to be a single parent, I could have by now, and I know for sure that is NOT what I want.

 

Right now, at this moment, he and I are in agreement about no kids. He has his own children, and I have children in my family that I adore and have helped raise, they are my sort of surrogate children. They all come stay with me, and we have very good relationships... I like that set up in that I get to truly enjoy them, without having to parent them too much. I'm their confidante, and I prefer that to being their parent at this point.

 

So, I'm not going in thinking I'm going to change my mind about not wanting kids. I'm going in thinking that he and I are in agreement, that children change your life tremendously, and that is not a life I would want for myself right now. I enjoy my free time, my career, and being able to do what I want when I want. I enjoy my single childless life, it's fun, and my only responsibility is myself (bills and such, but only for myself). If I changed my mind, that would be on me and it would be my issue to figure out. I would NOT trick him into having a child with me, I would need to find a different partner that would be willing. That's how I would handle it, if it happened.

[eleanorrigby]

Maybe. Or maybe, a partner should not make life changing decisions without agreement from their partner? Hmmm? Maybe when she changed her mind, and he didn't, she should have done what needed doing then, finding a new relationship, instead of underhandedly trapping him into something he was not in agreement with? She had many abortions prior to the child, bc they were in agreement at that point. I don't know why she kept getting pregnant, he and I have NEVER gotten pregnant, it's pretty simple to keep from happening (even without a vasectomy). She had the abortions of her own free will, prior to him and then during him, giving the idea that she was in agreement and didn't want children. Then, she changed her mind, and without consulting with her H, she changed both of their lives drastically. You see him at fault, I see her at fault. Again, no reason to be hostile

 

Who told you about her abortions? MM? If so, I shocked he would share that info with you. That was never, ever, your business to know unless she told you.

[j'adore]

This is typical affair speak.

Why would he want or need to be avoidant with you?

 

You were "together" for seven years, but you were merely an affair partner. You didn't live together day in and day out for decades like a real couple. Never having to directly deal, manage and resolve real life issues and stresses.

 

It's like having a grandchild - you get to hang out for a little while and then send them home to mommy to deal with the real stuff.

 

On top of that, you've been his therapist (with benefits) for nearly a decade. And like most "patient/therapist relationships," he can easily have a fairly non-judgmental, conflict avoidant free relationship with you . . . without all those pesky little judgments and conflicts that comes along with having a long-term (real) partner.

 

I would ask to see proof he's going to a professional therapist. He wouldn't be the first fence-sitting MM to make that false claim in order to make himself look "better" in order to secure a back up plan.

 

And regarding the child issue. If your MM didn't want children (and continues to not want children), he should have gotten a vasectomy. It's THAT simple.

This woman never believes anything any OW says or MM, she is obviously in distress. She cannot contemplate any OW and MM actually loving each other, oh no. She constantly tries to cause pain to any OW on here in an attempt to minimise her own misery.

[AnotherRound]

Who told you about her abortions? MM? If so, I shocked he would share that info with you. That was never, ever, your business to know unless she told you.

 

You're right, it wasn't my business. It came up when we discussed pregnancy. Like I said, I am VERY open when talking to someone. I explained to him that although I am pro-choice, I would never have an abortion of my own simply bc birth control efforts did not work. I thought he needed to know that going in, since we were being sexually intimate with one another. I tell anyone that I'm sexually intimate with my stance on that. That way, they can decide if they are willing to take the risk. Knowing that if the bc methods fail, that they would be a father bc I would not have an abortion. That is me being extremely honest so that others can make their decisions appropriately.

 

I can see that you are angry that he shared this with me. That's understandable. I'm trying to tell everyone here that we are VERY open with one another, and it seems that some are disbelieving of that. I'm not making it up, or exaggerating it, it is the truth. We have talked about EVERYTHING, openly and honestly. When there is no judgment, that is what happens, you get real input from others, they reveal how they feel and think without fear.

 

I'm sorry this angered you, I wasn't going to share, but it was relevant to the topic brought up that he was not in on the decision to have a child. And that it was NOT their previous agreement. He HAS carried resentment re this in their marriage that she changed the marriage drastically without his consent or agreement.

[AnotherRound]

This woman never believes anything any OW says or MM' date=' she is obviously in distress. She cannot contemplate any OW and MM actually loving each other, oh no. She constantly tries to cause pain to any OW on here in an attempt to minimise her own misery.[/quote']

 

Which is her right, but seriously, to bring it to the OW/OM board relentlessly? She has mentioned "disordered"... I'm afraid that word does not mean what she thinks it means, or she wouldn't be throwing it around with the obvious cognitive dissonance that she herself exhibits.

 

I do not follow her around the boards, as she seems to some of us, and interject into her conversations, bc she obviously is not ready to hear anything that I have to offer. But the fact that she inserts herself into our conversations, and then acts like a 2 year old throwing a tantrum, is annoying at best. And the fact that nobody has told her off yet, and hurt her to the core, is quite amazing. I think she's damn lucky that there is such understanding on this board, bc if we were like her, she might get a real dose of her own medicine.

 

Not to mention, she is NEVER on topic over here. Just in there trying to jab away... and sharing the posts with her H who she is so proud to have by the balls right now. It's unhealthy... and frankly, weird.

[eleanorrigby]

You're right, it wasn't my business. It came up when we discussed pregnancy. Like I said, I am VERY open when talking to someone. I explained to him that although I am pro-choice, I would never have an abortion of my own simply bc birth control efforts did not work. I thought he needed to know that going in, since we were being sexually intimate with one another. I tell anyone that I'm sexually intimate with my stance on that. That way, they can decide if they are willing to take the risk. Knowing that if the bc methods fail, that they would be a father bc I would not have an abortion. That is me being extremely honest so that others can make their decisions appropriately.

 

I can see that you are angry that he shared this with me. That's understandable. I'm trying to tell everyone here that we are VERY open with one another, and it seems that some are disbelieving of that. I'm not making it up, or exaggerating it, it is the truth. We have talked about EVERYTHING, openly and honestly. When there is no judgment, that is what happens, you get real input from others, they reveal how they feel and think without fear.

 

I'm sorry this angered you, I wasn't going to share, but it was relevant to the topic brought up that he was not in on the decision to have a child. And that it was NOT their previous agreement. He HAS carried resentment re this in their marriage that she changed the marriage drastically without his consent or agreement.

 

 

My shock may seem hypocritical considering my posts on gossip and how I've been known to participate in it.

 

However, I don't and have not gossiped about something so personal as another womans choice to abort. That info is so sensitive, personal. and private and I just can't believe he told this to you, to you.

 

How does that make you feel about him knowing he shared that with you?

Edited September 15, 2012 by eleanorrigby

[AnotherRound]

My shock may seem hypocritical considering my posts on gossip and how I've been known to participate in it.

 

However, I don't and have not gossiped about something so personal as another womans choice to abort. That info is so sensitive, personal. and private and I just can't believe he told this to you, to you.

 

How does that make you feel about him knowing he shared that with you?

 

Well, he has shared a LOT with me, so I'm not surprised, as this was relevant to his life too. It wasn't just her issue, it was THEIR issue, in that they agreed to a childless marriage. So, he didn't just offer it up, as in, hey, let me tell you some really personal things about my wife. It was relevant to our conversation and our relationship, in that we were discussing sexual intimacy, and the possible results of that.

 

I know some very personal things about him, and about her. Is it my right to know those things? No, as I'm sure she doesn't know nearly the info about me that I do her. But, bc he and I had such an open relationship that was made of sharing emotionally, I'm not sure how it could have been any other way. Like I said, I would never choose to be the BW over being the AP if I had a choice. Being the BW was a very vulnerable position, whereas in my situation, being the AP was not nearly as vulnerable in that I was getting the most information.

 

I don't think you are a hypocrite at all. I think that you are a person who really things about things, and I respect that. From what I've seen, you honestly attempt at seeing all sides, even when they don't make a lot of sense to you, and I respect that too. You have given me some really good feedback, and made me think about some things a bit differently, even though you are here as a BW and I'm here as a FOW. I respect that tremendously.

 

This is my whole point to people claiming that these LT As are not "real" relationships. They absolutely are in many cases. In some cases, it is the first time the WS has had a chance to connect with someone that is not judgmental of them. This is not my exMM's stbxw's fault, she is just very different from me. She was raised to be much more private with her thoughts and feelings. It's not right or wrong, it's just different. And unfortunately, the man that she married was raised more like me and not her. He is not someone that wants to have to hide his thoughts and feelings, he wants to share, and he wants to know from his partner. She cannot, or will not, or is unable to do so. That's not her fault necessarily, but it just isn't what exMM needed or wanted to feel emotional intimacy.

 

I really didn't even want to share that I knew that, bc it isn't my business to share, and it isn't anyone else's business. But, I am tired of trying to defend that exMM and I shared a lot emotionally, and that we really did have an open and honest relationship with one another. And that bond is difficult to break. I wish he could have had that with his wife, but I don't control that, and it just wasn't there. I'm sorry that it wasn't, but I'm not sorry that he and I had it. I value it tremendously that he felt comfortable and safe enough to share these things with me, bc that is what I value in any relationship.

 

Again, I'm sorry if it upset you. I do appreciate your feedback and comments, and your sincerity and honesty.

[2sunny]

I think you can expect that when you're with this man - or even when YOU become HIS wife - you can expect him to tell YOUR very personal intimate details to another woman he confides in - I would NEVER trust him with MY private info!

[2sunny]

If I found out a man shared such personal info like that about me, his ass would be out for that reason alone.

 

I would consider that the ultimate betrayal.

 

Also, if a man shared that about a woman in his past with me, his ass would be gone. Someone sharing such deep personal info without consent has every indication of someone who has no boundaries nor respect.

 

AR.......you need to accept that you will be on the receiving end of him sharing your private, personal information some day. That is who he is and what he does.

 

Yep - he avoids the person he should communicate with - but discusses it with someone else.

 

The OP can expect that he will betray her that way too.

 

His behavior is very hurtful!

[AnotherRound]

I don't want to hurt anyone, but frankly as a woman who is craving another woman's husband right now (not saying it's right), I wouldn't care. The man that I think I want has told me he "loves his wife, but he loves his dog too..."," that she doesn't satisfy him sexually", "they don't have sex enough", blah, blah. Most of that could be lies, ok. I think it depends on the length of the affair too. If the affair has been lengthy and he cares about his AP, I can see a MM telling his AP this info about his wife. When there is an affair, there are three people in the marriage as unfortunate as it is. That is just how it goes.

 

I know that for a lot of BWs (and I was one once myself), you want to convince yourself that the A was "just sex". For whatever reason, that feels less hurtful than if it was a true connection, on an emotional level. For men, I understand it's the opposite... that they are less hurt by an emotional affair than they are by a sexual affair. I get that, but even as a BW, I couldn't ignore the reality of the situation. My exH was in love with his mistress. She met needs of his that I didn't. That was the truth.

 

Did it hurt? Yep. Did it affect my self esteem? For a while, yes. Did I try to convince myself that he was just trying to get sex? Yep, but deep down, I knew that wasn't true. I look back now, and it doesn't hurt at all. I have learned in life that it is not personal, that sometimes, you just marry someone that isn't a good fit for you. That's okay, it's not the end of the world, and I'm glad that he and I both moved on to find truly compatible love with other people. I loved my exH and would want nothing less for him, even if it meant that it wasn't with me. It took me a LONG time to get there, but get there I did. And once I was there, I felt MUCH better about the whole situation, when I was able to see it for what it was and not let my own insecurities muddle up my view of it.

 

My exMM and I were involved for 7 years, off and on. He and I talked about EVERYTHING. We talked about SGs that I was dating or had dated. We discussed very intimate details about ourselves, our desires, our wants, our needs, our emotions and thoughts. I know that there are BWs that want to imagine that the A was the MM coming over, dropping his pants, having detached sex with the AP, and then leaving. Nothing more, no conversation, no emotional connection, no bonding. But in my case (and I imagine, many others, esp in LT As) that is just not the reality.

 

My exMM and spent 10x the amount of time talking about things than we did having sex. Our sex was not emotionally detached, but very loving and intimate. We, like any couple, had all kinds of sex. Soft and loving, hard and fast, giggling and fun... as in any relationship, there are different moods on different days. We laughed together, we shared ups and downs of life, we offered advice and support for one another. We shared everything, including him sharing about his parenting issues, his marriage issues, his family issues... all issues. NOTHING was taboo. We have inside jokes, we have intimate knowledge of one another, we know what the other likes and doesn't like, we have closeness that doesn't always need words - sometimes looks are enough. We share pictures of the children in our lives, we tell stories to one another, we laugh at each other's quirks. We know each other's faults and weaknesses, each other's buttons. We have a real connection and a real interpersonal relationship, whether someone wants to admit that or not, it doesn't change the reality.

 

I know why it's comforting to think that none of that exists when you are the BS, I was there once and did the EXACT same thing. But, knowing what I know now, I know better. And I know that my exH cared about his OW, that he connected with her in ways that I couldn't, and that he most likely shared very personal information about me with her (not all of it positive, obviously, as he was unhappy with me). It doesn't bother me now, although it did then. I get it, I understand it, I see the reality of it. It's not in my control, so I don't worry about it. I can't make myself be a good fit for someone if I'm not, or vice versa. It's not possible. So, why waste my time? We either are, or we aren't, I'm okay with that, and I don't take it personally.

 

My struggle now is not, nor has it ever been, whether or not exMM and I are a good fit, we obviously are. My struggle is, am I willing to emotionally re-involved with him knowing all that I know. Am I willing to give him that chance? Not whether he deserves it or not, that's irrelevant. It's not about that... it's about, whether or not I'm willing, regardless. I'm not sure yet. I'm leaning towards yes, but there are things that would change that if they play out in the future. I will not insert myself into his life, but I will make a choice regarding whether or not I let him come back into my life, on different grounds. But, that is a choice I'm making knowing everything I need to know to make that choice. That's fine by me, that I have enough information to make that choice and that I'm okay with the possible consequences. If that ever changes, I will re-evaluate and act accordingly.

[AnotherRound]

Yep - he avoids the person he should communicate with - but discusses it with someone else.

 

The OP can expect that he will betray her that way too.

 

His behavior is very hurtful!

 

I share everything with him, and if he shares that with someone else, oh well. Like I said, I'm very honest and open about who I am, and what I think and feel. And, that doesn't scare me. I don't embarrass easily, and I don't have anything in my past that I'm ashamed of or regretful about. I wear my heart on my sleeve, along with my thoughts and feelings and opinions.

 

He did not avoid talking to his stbxw, she avoided talking to him. There is nothing in this man's behaviors that suggests that when he has a partner that he is able to confide in that he won't do so... nothing. I'm not saying what he did was right. I do know that if one partner refuses to communicate, that there is NOTHING the other partner can do about that. Did he handle it appropriately? Imo, no. But he handled it how he thought best. Will he see that it was the wrong way to handle it? I hope so, but only time will tell. He seems to see that already, now we will see if it "sticks" so to say.

[AnotherRound]

I think you can expect that when you're with this man - or even when YOU become HIS wife - you can expect him to tell YOUR very personal intimate details to another woman he confides in - I would NEVER trust him with MY private info!

 

I don't want to be his wife. I don't want to be anyone's wife at this point in my life. I don't look at marriage as the end all ultimate. I would marry only for practical reasons now, and would go in knowing that being married very well kill the relationship, so it would only be a LAST resort and only if necessary.

 

I don't believe that he just goes and blabs to everyone about everything. We were in an intimate relationship, and it was relevant to what we were discussing. It wasn't just an offering up of his wife's personal business. It was relevant to explaining how they had agreed to a childless marriage, how he did not want any more children, and how my beliefs and behaviors could possibly affect that issue. It wasn't random vomiting info, it was a discussion that needed to be had, and he provided important info to that conversation.

[AnotherRound]

If I found out a man shared such personal info like that about me, his ass would be out for that reason alone.

 

I would consider that the ultimate betrayal.

 

Also, if a man shared that about a woman in his past with me, his ass would be gone. Someone sharing such deep personal info without consent has every indication of someone who has no boundaries nor respect.

 

AR.......you need to accept that you will be on the receiving end of him sharing your private, personal information some day. That is who he is and what he does.

 

I can accept that. If he needs to discuss this issue in the future with a SO, and what he and I discussed or did is relevant, then I have no issues with him sharing his experiences with me with the new SO. My exH knew some very personal things about me too, and I'm SURE it came up in conversations later with his new SO's. It's kind of impossible for it NOT to come up. If it's relevant, then it will come up.

 

Any time you enter into an intimate relationship, you are taking many risks. You are risking giving up 50% of the control of your life to another person, independent of you. You are sharing things with them that are intimate, emotionally and physically. It's just part of the risks. If he needs to discuss something private between us later, with another SO, then he will, and I don't object to that. Heck, he may have with his new OW after me. It doesn't bother me at all, honestly. I don't care what she thinks of me, it's not important. And again, I don't have anything that I'm ashamed of and I'm not easily embarrassed at all. I am human, and accept that, and have done things I'm not proud of. But, I own them, and don't deny them, and if confronted with it, admit it readily, bc it is part of being human.

[AnotherRound]

I don't think you understand where I'm coming from AR.

 

It's not about shameful or embarrassing things, it's about private personal information and I consider abortion one of those things.

 

For instance, I was sexually molested by my father which I have been open about here, one reason is because I'm anonymous here. That info is up there on my list of private personal information that a man has no frickin business sharing about me with ANYONE else. Most people feel the same about abortion.

 

Get what I'm talking about?

 

I get where you are coming from. It's simply a difference in personality. I have a history of SA too, but the difference is, I talk about it, openly, with many people. When it's relevant, of course, not just going around and introducing myself and sharing that. But, I am a firm believer that we need to have open and honest dialogue with others regarding these issues, as I believe the more we talk about it, the more empowered (and less ashamed) people are about it.

 

Now, does him sharing that with others break a boundary? For you, yes. For me, no. If him sharing that information is helpful in some way, or important, or relevant in another situation where I am not present, I have no objection with him sharing it. It's something that most everyone knows about me bc I am open about it.

 

There are other things that I know about his wife, and her history, that you would think fall into this category of "private and personal" information, and I agree. I don't share the info I have about her with anyone. Here, bc it seemed relevant and it's anonymous, but elsewhere? No way. Bc I don't know what her boundary on that is. I do know what my boundary is, and there isn't a single person that I know that knows me that isn't aware that I was sexually abused and assaulted throughout my childhood. That's part of what makes me me. It has shaped me in certain ways, and I'm open about it bc I want to be, bc it takes the power away from the abusers when we refuse to protect them with silence. So, my boundaries and your boundaries re this issue are VERY different.

 

I have some very strong boundaries on certain things that probably wouldn't bother you at all. That's just differences in people and what they consider "private" and such. For instance, I do not allow anyone to touch me that I don't know... in any situation... in public, especially. I assert very firm boundaries in that. If you are too close to me in a line, I will let you know and I expect you to back off... and respect that boundary. Most people have no problem sitting at a football game and having strangers breathing on them and touching them on the bleachers. I cannot do it. My space is much more valuable to me than my past experiences, as far as needing to protect them go. I imagine, you might be very different than me in this aspect.

 

I don't mind if he tells other people about my experiences. I share a lot in that way in an honest effort to end the silence and the shame and the secrecy of it all. Some of that is related to the work that I do, and some of it just my personality, in that I truly am an open book about myself. ExMM's stbxw may not be (probably isn't, from what I know), and that's her right. Did he break her boundary by telling me these things? Maybe, I'm guessing yes. But my guess is, at the time, he found it relevant to our discussion, and thought it more important to share than to not. Disrespectful to her? Possibly (if that's a boundary of hers). But at the point in the marriage where they are not connecting, and he is having a LT A with someone else, and feeling like there was no mutual respect between the two of them, he probably didn't think it was an issue. Especially considering that he knew that I would not share that information outside of us, and only pertaining to what we were discussing.

[AnotherRound]

Why do you feel the need to analyze, discuss or advise on his avoidant behavior? Why do you care if he's avoidant? What business of yours is his marriage?

 

Because I analyze everything, it's my nature. I discuss, bc I'm processing. I advise, bc I'm interacting with others... some who are truly trying to understand the situation and offer me help with it.

 

I'm not asking bc I'm involved in their marriage. I'm asking bc he has asked to have a relationship with me once his divorce is final. I am using the information that I have gathered of him over the past 8 years as guidance to what I may or may not do. The fact that he was in this marriage during our time together makes his behaviors relevant to any possible future we may have together, if I decide to agree to that.

My ILs are gold medal avoidant and have been happily married 40 years.

Yes, that does happen. I'm not sure that I would describe it as "happy" as that would not define happiness for me. But it does work for some. In my situation, it apparently does not work for exMM, but it does for his stbxw. So, therein lies the issue perhaps.

 

Hopefully that answered your questions.

[AnotherRound]

Somewhere, someone asked me if I did not believe in monogamy, or exclusivity in relationships bc of my views on marriage.

 

No, I do believe in both of those things. As long as BOTH partners are on the same page, it is mutually beneficial, and it is a good fit. I would not tolerate someone having another relationship outside of our own if we had never spoken about it (and I would never agree to it, bc in my mind if that is necessary, then what we have is just not working). I am willing to discuss anything in a relationship. If something is discussed and can be fixed, I'm willing to try (usually, depending). But if something comes up that does not appear to be fixable, I would not hold onto the relationship - marriage certificate or not. I don't see the point.

 

I think that many couples know fairly quickly if their relationship is fixable. And some may find it "honorable" or "noble" to hang in until it's completely destroyed, but I disagree. I think that sometimes, that holding on and hanging in, when both parties know it isn't going to work, is far more detrimental than helpful. It tears down what is left of the relationship, if there was anything good left. I find it much better for me to walk away on good terms and with understanding, than to stay and destroy anything good left in a relationship that was obviously important to me at some point.

 

I'm a realist. I understand that not all relationships are life long, as much as that would be nice and as reassuring as that would be, it just isn't reality. Sometimes, people change, and they become incompatible. Sometimes yo love someone, but you cannot make the relationship work no matter how hard you try. It's not easy, but I never feel "locked in" bc in reality, I am not locked in. I would make every attempt to discuss it and fix it, if possible, but I would also recognize when I am kicking a dead horse. To me, there's no sense in that, as I have much more valuable things to do with my time than waste energy on a dead issue.

 

I know that many people question this in that they always wonder if there was hope, or a chance. I don't think like that. I live in the now, and in the now, if it's not working, and it's not fixable, then it just isn't. It doesn't matter to me that it MIGHT work 10 years from now... bc right now, it is NOT working and it's not fixable. Fact of the matter is, if it's not working now, it's most likely not going to ever work. I can accept that and walk away. I know that some people cannot, and that's okay with me, it's their life, and as long as they are happy, who am I to judge their decisions?

 

But what works for me is knowing when I am not in control and accepting that. Accepting the things that I cannot change, and moving on. Knowing what my realistic powers are, and accepting that which I cannot change or control. I accept it, find peace in it... and since I have chosen to live my life this way (wasn't always that way, I used to struggle trying to control things that I couldn't and wore myself out), it has been MUCH more satisfying and peaceful. I don't look back with regret, bc I know I made the right decision for me at that time. That is the best I can ask for, especially in situations such as love where there is rarely a right or wrong answer.

 

This is how I'm approaching this offer from exMM. I will make decisions as often as necessary, with the information I have, and accept when something is not in my control and count my losses and walk away. I'm not a gambler at all, but life requires me to gamble sometimes, and if I want to live, then I have to take risks. So, I do my best to make sure that those bets are hedged in my favor. If I lose? Oh well, I tried... realistically tried, with no delusions, and no fantasies, and that's all I can do.

[j'adore]

OMG this thead has really helped me, during the year before d day, MM started to share very personal information with me, he is not a communcater but I actually did not want to hear all those details, it didn't feel right, and it caused me to be thinking about his family constantly and i did not want to share them until or if he was with me, then I would have. But that makes sense, he was not communicating with her about his feelings, he was telling me and I couldn't help him. This caused us to argue and i even told him I did not want to know. Why he insisted on talking about them I do not know but he did but it was me he was intimate with so maybe he confused the two. I am going to ask him. The first couple of years we were really happy, it was only when his happened and we realised we were in love and stuck, that there were problems.

sorry if there is a tj here but i had an epiphany

Edited September 16, 2012 by j'adore

[Sauron]

I am not avoidant, however you define it. I am not a fence sitter either. I would say all of these types of realtionships come with unique terms and rules of engagement, and that as these realtionships can't really move forward in a traditional sense, both parties have to be adapted to that fact. Of course, I nver promised anything to my OW and she never expected anyting, other than spending quality time togther. Apparently, many of the MM make promises about their future which creates expectations that will never be met, unfortunate. I would say this is stupid, because when it ends, you end up with very upset OW sending facts and details to your wife, or at least in some of the stories I have read about here. Much better that both partners define the realtionship and manage to to the agreement. Really at the end of the day, you both have every specfic needs from it. Regarding sharing of the personal information, after 7 years (which is the duration of my affair as well) some personal information is going to come out. I do not talk a lot about personal deatils of my wife, but do share generally family information and she does too. To the OP, did your MM every meet any of your extended family?

[beenburned]

AR,

 

It might have been me that asked you what your beliefs are on monogamy/being exclusive in a relationship were.(based on you not wanting to ever marry again)

 

But I'm kind of confused that you said you believe in exclusiveness in relationships, because anyone in an EMA with a married person is technically sharing that person with the spouse.(or OOW)

 

I agree that couples(married or not), should BOTH discuss and agree on the terms of their relationship.

 

The problem with EMAs is that the BS is left in the dark, not able to control, decide, or agree on what she/he wants in their marriage. It is totally unfair to use other people in this manner for your own personal desires.