Changing meds for OCD..and a good new doc

[Thinkalot]

How I feel. Along with bad for causing so much grief. Not asking for sympathy here, just saying.

 

Plus, I hear ya meanon!

[meanon]

Your story is yet to be written, Thinkalot. There are many people who have successfully overcome this and sustained loving relationships. There's nothing to be gained from worrying about what you can't control. All you can do is invest everything you have in getting the condition stabilised quickly. Plus the guilt will erode your self esteem and that will exacerbate the OCD. Chill . It's good for you, it's good for boy. Gaia is staying with me tomorrow night, I'll ask her to post.

[Thinkalot]

Thank you ..it would be nice to hear from her.

 

I was so wanting to get my sex drive back, for myself, but of course for boy, that I cut back on the meds. You see, even though I'll still make love even if I'm not really in the mood, he says it's not the same, as when I was always in the mood...lol! And that it's not the same anyway.

 

I guess, I'll go from a half to a full tablet per day on the Luvox and see how I go.

[johan]

That means being a relief to come home to rather than one more problem. His other stock line is 'how much fun are you to live with'. Your guy is already stressed from working so much, needs a break, and goes home to - more stress

 

He may end up in hospital if something doesn't let up. People can only endure that much stress for so long.

 

I agree that this all must be adding up on him. Thinkalot is obviously still struggling with her obsessiveness and persistence. And the needless complications from her mother's situation must tear him apart with guilt and resentment. Not to mention wedding plans and work. Work alone can bring you down, particularly if you're working a burnout pace. But I have to say that the name calling, cursing and anger bother me. I understand it, but I don't think it's right.

 

I understand it, because it's very tempting, and because I've gone that way myself. But it just adds bad on top of bad. Speaking for myself, I did it to try to beat it into my girlfriend's head how much she was driving me crazy, i.e. to make the cost of torturing me and abusing me high for her. But that never worked, because she wasn't doing the same kind of cost/benefit I expected her to. But I think it bred resentment in her, and it added more stuff for us to overcome. And it disgusted me and lowered the overall level of respect she and I were showing for each other. It was the wrong approach. I had nothing like the stress he's under, so it's going to be that much harder for him to follow my advice.

 

He has to dedicate and re-dedicate himself to defeating this behavior. It's not a good strategy to try to gain control over these things by losing control. He has to be the one to bring calmness and rational thinking to the table when Thinkalot and her mother can't do it. This is the burden of being with them, and there's nothing he can do to change it. Not in the short term anyway, not with his anger. If at some point they "come to their senses" like he wishes they would, then they will be left with memories of his disrespectful behavior, and that might not work out the way he wants.

 

He needs to be self-aware enough to understand what is causing his outbursts and then to be the one to control that. THAT is what he can do to make the relationship as much of a success as it can be. I recommend he work to treat his stress himself, because I"m sure he is perfectly capable of seeing what it is doing to him. If Think wants to do nice things to help him that's fine, but his behavior is his own responsibility. So that's where I differ with Moi to some extent. Moi is pointing at Think, saying "you have to stop it." That's true but probably too much to expect. Moi should be pointing at him as well. He needs to stop it. Whatever it takes.

[Thinkalot]

Hi Johan...and thanks so much for your input...always appreciated. No doubt boy will read this also, and appreciate it. He feels like you 'get' how he feels...

 

He does hate that he swears and gets angry like he does...sometimes that alone makes him not want to be with me...he does not like the person he has become at times, through the stress. It sounds like you can relate to that too.

 

He has vowed to again do all in his power to reduce his swearing and anger...of course, I play such a big part, a lot really does depend on me.

[ladyangel]

Originally posted by moimeme

As far as the mother/child comment, I would never in my wildest dreams call my child or any other child horrible names or belittle them, no matter what they did.

 

I didn't even imply that one would. No idea how you inferred it. The point was that caregiving is not constantly blissful and to perpetrate that myth only makes people who get frustrated or tired or dispirited feel rotten for being less-than-blissful about it.

I have no idea how you could infer that I am perpetuating any myth. Nothing in life is constantly blissful!

 

I think it is a little demeaning to use the word "caregiver" in terms of Thinkalot's fiance. She seems to be a fully functioning member of society who performs her job well and takes care of herself. The fact that he chooses to be with someone with a disorder does not make him her caregiver...nor a martyr.

Saying that people should never get frustrated or upset with someone just because that someone is ill is ridiculous - it's like saying that mothers taking care of children should be happy 100% of the time.

I didn't imply anywhere that people should never get frustrated or upset with someone just because they are ill. What I DO say is that they should not be allowed to disrespect them, curse at them, call them names or shove them "just because they are ill" and they display that illness from time to time. I don't think anyone should be allowed to do that, period.

 

It is totally inappropriate for anyone to have the attitude of, "Well, he/she is sick and does things that are frustrating to me; therefore I am justified in doing whatever I do, no matter how wrong."

 

Removing yourself from a situation and cursing, calling names and shoving are two vastly different things, in my opinion.

Nor did I suggest that they weren't. However, look up 'Extreme Emotional Disturbance' and 'Heat of Passion' in jurisprudence.

Are you studying to be an attorney now? We're not talking about the law here. We're not talking in terms of a criminal case. We're talking about common sense and treating people with respect and decency. We're talking about controlling your temper. We're talking about having understanding and being supportive rather than tearing a person's self-esteem down lower than it already is. We're talking about not making a person feel guilty for a condition that is beyond their control, especially when they are doing everything within their power to be treated for it. We're talking about a man who supposedly loves a woman and wants to marry her.

 

My contention is that it is incumbent upon the person who is being disengaged from to not continue the engagement. In short, the fellow in these events already does what is counselled by anger management counsellors - REMOVE ONESELF FROM THE SITUATION. However, the lady does not permit the angry person to remove himself from the situation. This is contrary to what any anger management counsellor would suggest so it is therefore up to her to change her behaviour in these situations.

I agree that she should try to change the behavior of not allowing him to disengage. And HE should stop his abusive behavior towards her, no matter what she does. Life is not all about tit for tat.

 

However, I gather from her posts that it is much more than that. She says he berates her and her mother and calls them names. To me, this is unbelievable and inexcusable behavior.

 

Thinkalot, I see that you are in a tough position. I also see that some people choose to berate you further and point the finger and blame you for everything wrong with your relationship. That's sad. Don't let anyone convince you that you are solely responsible for the success of this relationship.

 

Has your fiance been to counseling with you? Has he read books about your condition? Has he gone to the message boards for spouses of people with your condition? Has he tried to learn everything he can about your condition and how to be supportive of you? Does he take any responsibility for his actions when he gets out of control and says or does abusive things to you?

 

It sounds like you take a lot of the responsibility for when things go wrong. Relationships are a two-way street, whether you have an illness or not. He needs to take responsibility for his half of the relationship.

[moimeme]

he does not like the person he has become at times, through the stress

 

I cannot think of a single AD/HD spouse who didn't say that exact thing.

 

He needs to be self-aware enough to understand what is causing his outbursts and then to be the one to control that

 

Johan, he does exactly what the anger management theory recommends. He attempts to remove himself from the situation. People who are already stressed are already in a high state of arousal so they are quicker to anger. Since he doesn't have much chance to dissipate the stress, anger can grab him pretty quickly.

 

Thinkalot's partner doesn't lose it until she disregards his requests to leave him alone and foils his attempts to leave the scene. That is the critical piece here. He's already doing what he's supposed to. The only other thing he could do would be to leave the house entirely and go away someplace. Yes, he can try to change his thinking, etc. but those things work much better on a person who has a less stressful life. He's probably got a steady stream of stress chemicals in his system anyway, making it that much harder to combat any additional stresses.

 

think it is a little demeaning to use the word "caregiver" in terms of Thinkalot's fiance.

 

Not in the least. 'Care' in this context means anything from emotional support to physical care. We have an organization called 'Family Caregivers Network' and people dealing with people with any sort of chronic condition are members. There is nothing pejorative at all about it.

 

It is totally inappropriate for anyone to have the attitude of, "Well, he/she is sick and does things that are frustrating to me; therefore I am justified in doing whatever I do, no matter how wrong."

 

Nobody has suggested that it is appropriate.

[Thinkalot]

Thank you for your words ladyangel. We've been to couples counselling a few times for general communication issues we have. He check on this site, and will read this thread (if he hasn't already), and he takes all the advice on board. He has read all the info I have given him on OCD also. He agrees he should not swear or call me names, but says he sometimes does explode and just lose it. he doesn't think that's good. Maybe he does not try hard enough to disengage at all times before he says things. He does often swear now, even when I simply frustrate him or we have a misunderstanding. His tolerance levels are low. There is no doubting that. He says over time, he has just been worn down by it all, and does wish that wasn't so.

 

I feel very sad today, and all this talk about my relationship and its deficiencies, couples with his failings and my failings, while helpful, is indeed a bit depressing.

 

moi- one slight point...there are times when he loses it almost immediately with me now...swearing and calling me an idiot or whatever. There is no disengaging first. It just bursts out. This to me, and to him, is evidence of just how far he has been pushed and how stressed he is. When it gets like that, it is about the loudest alarm bell I can hear.

[moimeme]

We can talk about all the shoulds on the planet and it won't fix this situation.

 

moi- one slight point...there are times when he loses it almost immediately with me now...swearing and calling me an idiot or whatever. There is no disengaging first. It just bursts out. This to me, and to him, is evidence of just how far he has been pushed and how stressed he is. When it gets like that, it is about the loudest alarm bell I can hear.

 

You're exactly right, Thinkalot. I recognize it - I saw it over and over again on the AD/HD spouse boards. The anger and frustration of living with someone who continually does something that upsets you eventually keeps you at a level just below boiling point. You are perennially at a point where one small thing will infuriate you all over again. Whether that is due to excessive levels of adrenaline or cortisol or whether it's something psychological I'm not sure, but that's what happens. It gets to the point where absolutely everything bothers the person because he (or she) never has the opportunity to let the anger levels dissipate.

 

Think of a pot always on the stove at just below boiling - turn up the heat a smidge and it boils over. Think of a thermometer whose mercury has reached the top of the column and heat keeps getting applied. There never is a chance for all the mercury to drain out.

 

I used to call it the 'cycle of anger' and urge people to get away for several weeks.

 

What some folks don't seem to understand is that nobody wants to be angry all the time. As I said, all the AD/HD spouses said they didn't even recognize themselves anymore - and not a soul was rejoicing about it. Rather, most were on anti-depressants or anti-anxiety drugs of their own because they were so distressed that they had changed so much. These are situational anger problems, which are different from generalized anger problems. As I understand it, this fellow is not normally an angry human, which makes it all the more distressing for him to find himself in such a state.

 

If you can't get a handle on your end of it, the smartest thing of all may be to send him off someplace for a couple or three weeks to relax. I know he has to work but maybe he should live at a hotel or someplace where he could kick back and relax however he wished until all the built-up frustration has had a chance to leave his system.

[Thinkalot]

He was in a relationship for 10 years with his ex-wife, and did not ever have an anger problem with her.

[moimeme]

Yep. That's classic. It's situational, not a character flaw. The good news is that if the situation gets repaired, the anger won't remain because it's not his nature.

 

What's also classic, unfortunately, is that the AD/HD partners go to their therapists complaining that their partners, who have never in their lives had anger problems, have anger problems There is absolutely a difference between situational anger issues and chronic anger issues and I suspect they have to be treated differently.

[Thinkalot]

I'd say you're right for sure Merry.

 

Johan- a question for you- have you been angry in other relationships? Or only in this one, when you have been pushed by your gf?

[johan]

Johan, he does exactly what the anger management theory recommends. He attempts to remove himself from the situation. People who are already stressed are already in a high state of arousal so they are quicker to anger. Since he doesn't have much chance to dissipate the stress, anger can grab him pretty quickly.

 

I know he does. I know what it feels like to get backed into a corner. But I said "whatever it takes". I think there are alternatives.

[Thinkalot]

Do you have any suggestions which my fiance may be able to take on? He'll read this thread when he's back at his computer tomorrow I'd say.

[moimeme]

Johan, you don't live with your gf, do you?

[Thinkalot]

There is no escape when you share a home...lol

[moimeme]

Yeah. That was kinda my point. It seems to me that Johan has a gf that he sees not all that regularly. It's a heck of a lot easier to take a balanced perspective from a distance and without having to deal with the situation all the time. Actually, I wished I'd never lived with the guy. I could have handled him if I could have retired to my own place away from the stress and constant hassle.

[Thinkalot]

Your understanding of the situation Merry, as one who has been in a similar boat, is immensely supportive for my fiance, who feels someone at least knows what it can be like...and while he wants to stop reacting the way he does, the thought he suffers from 'situational anger' is also a comfort I think, because he does sometimes feel bad about being so angry.

[johan]

Johan- a question for you- have you been angry in other relationships? Or only in this one, when you have been pushed by your gf?

 

I've never had anger "issues" before. My girlfriend now pushes me farther than I've ever been pushed. "Pushes" is the keyword, because she won't respect my feelings and stop. That's new for me. It's taken a lot for me to realize that acting so angry with her solves nothing. It only makes things worse. So I shut down and leave. We've been really close to breaking up, but I try not to call her names or show open disrespect. It got to that point a few times, it didn't produce the results I needed, and it freaked me out.

[Thinkalot]

Yep, same way it made my fiance feel

[moimeme]

So I shut down and leave

 

You see, you can leave.

 

and while he wants to stop reacting the way he does, the thought he suffers from 'situational anger' is also a comfort I think, because he does sometimes feel bad about being so angry

 

Of course he does. The worst of it is being angry at someone that you know, cognitively, is not doing these things deliberately. You feel like you're becoming inhuman - like you're kicking puppies But you can't make your brain stop interpreting the behaviours as hurtful. And then you get frustrated at yourself as well, which adds that much more stress.

 

Actually, 'cycle of anger' is the wrong name. It's 'great sucking vortex of anger' really

[johan]

We don't live together. We see each other all the time. You're right, it makes a huge difference if you can get away to your own place.

 

We're arguing two different things here. One: is it understandable how he feels and why he responds like he does. Two: Is it acceptable to respond like that (regardless of the circumstances). You seem to be arguing that it's acceptable under the circumstances. Is that what you're arguing?

 

I'll clarify some things. I really like Thinkalot and Bunnyboy. I value the connection we've developed. I hope for them to succeed only just less than I hope for my own relationship to succeed. I don't see any reason why they can't. I think his response is completely understandable and forgivable. It doesn't surprise me that he feels bad about it and wants to find a solution. I don't have to live with my girlfriend to know that once you start to give in to the anger, it comes too easily after that. And too much of that kind of anger can kill love. That's why I'm speaking up on this. Because this will come back around to get them. So like I said, whatever it takes, it has to be done.

 

Honestly, if they could get these two problems out of the way, they could overcome anything. That would be a relationship worth fighting for.

[moimeme]

You seem to be arguing that it's acceptable under the circumstances. Is that what you're arguing?

 

Not in the least. I'm saying that there is a dynamic that has to be understood which is not unusual or uncommon in this sort of relationship and which does not mean the person who gets angry has an 'anger problem'. That it is as unrealistic to expect him to be able to 'just take it easy' in the midst of this situation as it is to tell Thinkalot to just quit obssessing. Both behaviours are chemically-induced; hers due to the serotonin imbalance and his because he's awash in stress hormones. They might as well be gas and flame. And it's going to blow them both to smithereens unless somebody can pour some water over the whole thing.

 

Honestly, if they could get these two problems out of the way, they could overcome anything. That would be a relationship worth fighting for.

 

I agree. I badly want this to work out for them both. I got very sad seeing how few of the AD/HD relationships worked out. BTW, the ones that did did so because the AD/HD person found meds that worked and changed the behaviours. There were, I think, three - out of over 150 I eventually found the board too depressing and had to leave because there were so few happy endings.

[Thinkalot]

Thinkalot and Bunnyboy= The Happy Ending

 

Keep cheering for us, and supporting us, and we'll keep doing our best to provide that happy ending.

[johan]

You see, you can leave.

So it's harder for him. And therefore acceptable. I see your point. So you think it's easier for me to find a solution, I can't help that. The fact is, I'd have to find one even if I lived with her. I'm responsible for my actions and the situations I put myself in. I'm responsible for what I say to people and how I treat them, regardless of how they treat me. I'm responsible for taking the time to reflect on what happens and finding a better way. BunnyBoy knows this.

 

You feel like you're becoming inhuman - like you're kicking puppies But you can't make your brain stop interpreting the behaviours as hurtful. And then you get frustrated at yourself as well, which adds that much more stress.

I KNOW that feeling. That's why I'm saying it's unacceptable for me. I can't live with myself feeling like that. I can't understand anyone who wouldn't feel that way under the circumstances, or who could live with it. If my girlfriend disregards my feelings with obsessive questioning and distrust, I can still control my response, whether I'm in a position to leave or not. The fact is, I don't leave that often. I usually stick around for the duration.

 

Maybe there is something fundamental you know of that I'm missing here. Some reason why you would want to "make your brain stop interpreting the behaviours as hurtful". What is it that makes them not hurtful? Should I be shouting at my girlfriend more? Should I consider calling her an idiot to be part of a productive solution? If she were suffering from OCD, does that make it true that she's an idiot and ok for me to call her one? Does it make her impervious to insults? Does it make her less able to resent me for saying it?

 

Have I misinterpreted you?

 

I'm embarrassed to say I got to that point with my girlfriend. Changing it involved self-examination that had nothing to do with her. It was all me. I still would have had to do that if I lived with her. It would have been harder, I know it.