Christian belief: God is not a "Genie"

[TheFinalWord]

Matthew 6:31-32

 

Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all.

 

 

 

Philippians 4:19

 

And my God will supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus.

 

 

 

Matthew 7:11

 

If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

 

 

 

James 4:1-2

 

What causes quarrels and what causes fights among you? Is it not this, that your passions are at war within you? You desire and do not have, so you murder. You covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do not have, because you do not ask.

 

-----------

 

I was also constantly taught in Church that God gives you what you need.

 

Nice post SomeDude I love the Sermon on the Mount. One of my favorite renditions:

 

King of Kings (1961) - Sermon of the Mount - YouTube

 

Another good verse from Matthew 6.

 

“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

 

If our heart is here in this world, we will focus on the things of this world. We will chase the temporary things of this life. If our heart is fixed on the Kingdom of Heaven, we will focus (and pray) for the things which can advance God's Kingdom. When our heart is right with God, our prayers will change. At least that is what I have found.

 

As Jesus looked up, he saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. “Truly I tell you,” he said, “this poor widow has put in more than all the others. All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.”

 

I wonder if there was a difference in the heart of the rich and the poor widow?

[TheFinalWord]

I see what your saying, and your right. God according to the bible wouldnt just give you anything. I understand the whole thing about people believing things come from God at certain time. Yet the majority of people still thank God for every little thing in thier life. Am I wrong about that? So going by what people say God would be a Genie. See until we go into detail about it people never think of God as a Genie, but if you listen to what they say it would imply that.

 

Interesting point. The main difference I see is that a genie just gives you the things you want instantly. There's no focus on growth, condition of the heart, and growing in spiritual maturity.

 

Answered prayer is a process. It isn't an instant gratification like a genie. So for myself, when I thank God for what He has done for me, it is not just the physical manifestation, ie new job, but more so the spiritual growth. To me the real satisfaction in my life is from seeing God operate in my life and the changes He makes in my heart. The satisfaction of knowing my life is in harmony with His Will and I am growing in Christ. The experiences I have gone through are what make me thankful, not just the end result of the prayer. And for a Christian, living and growing in Christ is much more satisfying than anything this world has to offer.

 

Many times in the Exodus, Israel was granted their prayer requests instantly. As soon as the next hardship arrived, they forgot all about it and wanted to stone Moses and Aaron. They got so rebellious they actually wanted to go back to Egypt to slavery.

 

In the desert the whole community grumbled against Moses and Aaron.The Israelites said to them, “If only we had died by the Lord’s hand in Egypt! There we sat around pots of meat and ate all the food we wanted, but you have brought us out into this desert to starve this entire assembly to death.” The Lord said to Moses, “I have heard the grumbling of the Israelites. Tell them, ‘At twilight you will eat meat, and in the morning you will be filled with bread. Then you will know that I am the Lord your God.’”

 

Oh yeah, one chapter later...

there was no water for the people to drink. So they quarreled with Moses and said, “Give us water to drink.” Moses replied, “Why do you quarrel with me? Why do you put the Lord to the test?” But the people were thirsty for water there, and they grumbled against Moses. They said, “Why did you bring us up out of Egypt to make us and our children and livestock die of thirst?” Then Moses cried out to the Lord, “What am I to do with these people? They are almost ready to stone me.”

 

Mind you this was after God performed extreme miracles right in front of them. Man quickly forgets God's benefits. So instant prayer requests rarely bring much satisfaction or growth. We now have the Holy Spirit which actually works to temper our hearts. Much more beneficial than the old covenant, but I digress.

 

God also brings trials into our lives. Normally I have found that God does not just give you what you ask for. The only time I have found that happens is when we first ask Christ into our heart. He will save you, but often even that is a process b/c we tend to fight it tooth and nail Once our pilgrimage of faith begins, prayer becomes a way for God to shape us not to dish out new Mercedes Benz, supermodel women, and positions of high power and fame (Paul actually does not allow even recent converts to have leadership positions in the church lest they become exalted in pride)

 

First, a change in heart occurs. Then, a mountain is plopped in your way. This is where faith comes in. These trials are often a response to prayer. Genies just give instant gratification. That rarely (only a handful of times I can recall an instantaneous response to a prayer request) happens with God.

 

"Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters,whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything."

 

Not lacking anything...when you have God in your life it is enough. Worldly things fall into a far second. Paul actually said the things this world has to offer were garbage to him in comparison to knowing Christ. So for us, it's the process not just the end result The journey, not the goal. It's a narrow path, but God is faithful to see us through.

Edited September 18, 2012 by TheFinalWord

[TheFinalWord]

So how do you tell the difference between trivial ask and recieve and true tests if people blend them together? I agree and understand what you are saying. I just dont agree with the puuting it all in one category, and thats God does everything for me. A test of faith or life changing event I could understand. I dont believe in any of it, but I understand that some people do. But finding a lover, getting money, your team winning the superbowl, or any little thing like that takes away from the actual teachings. And that to me is what puts God into the Genie category, by what alot of people say.

 

Good question. Well, I don't judge other people (at least I try not to lol). That's between them and God I would say. Each person would have to ask God for wisdom regarding their motives. James 1 gives us good guidelines:

 

"If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him."

 

So the first way to know for yourself is one, if you feel a desire in your heart, pray to God for wisdom whether it is a godly desire and in line with God wants for your life. If not, be prepared for that answer and accept God's answer. Second, check it against the bible. Also, ask godly mentors. Check it against those that are older that love you and get their advice.

 

You are right about the super bowl thing (I'm guessing you mean like Tim Tebow?). For money or a spouse, I would say it depends on the motive. If you just want to win the lottery so you can buy mansions I agree with you that's shady. But if a church prays for money to support their ministry, for missionaries, for community centers, I think that is a good thing (assuming the church has good motives). It depends on the motives, which only God really knows. For a spouse, well God (according to Christianity) created marriage. A husband and wife can be a very effective team in ministry, especially if they have life purpose compatibility. I do think that a lot of people want a spouse when they are not ready for one. Also, a lot of people don't do things God's way such as waiting for marriage for sex which causes all kinds of problems.

 

For myself, I have found that God will normally change my heart when I pray. He'll show me if I have the wrong motives. That's where you have to be humble. If He says "No" then I have to leave it at that. That's happened more than once, and it can be easier said than done But you're right, there are a lot of people that claim God did this or that for them, but what they're thanking Him for does not line up with the bible. It's questionable.

Edited September 18, 2012 by TheFinalWord

[BetheButterfly]

I see what your saying, and your right. God according to the bible wouldnt just give you anything. I understand the whole thing about people believing things come from God at certain time. Yet the majority of people still thank God for every little thing in thier life. Am I wrong about that? So going by what people say God would be a Genie. See until we go into detail about it people never think of God as a Genie, but if you listen to what they say it would imply that.

 

Jesus didn't see Father in Heaven as a genie. When Jesus asked for the "cup" to be taken from him, he said not his will, but his Father's will be done (Matthew 26:36-42). He wasn't jumping for joy over the pain and humiliation that he knew was coming, but he didn't throw a hissy fit about it either or turn his back on his Father.

 

He asked for the cup to be taken from him and was denied his request, but he still obeyed what the Father wanted him to do, which is hard.

 

When I was single, it was really hard to wait on God. It's so much easier to do one's own thing.

 

As for giving thanks, when my parents give me things, I try to remember to thank them. They aren't genies. Christians, through Jesus' leading, consider God to be our Heavenly Father. Giving thanks is what we are supposed to do even when we're going through difficulties.

 

One of my role models, Corrie ten Boom, told of giving thanks while in a Nazi Concentration camp for lice!!! I can't imagine giving God thanks for that, but she and others did. Their reason was that the guards did not want to go into their barracks because of the infestation.

 

The following is an interesting link: Giving Thanks Always for All Things

 

That is one of the difficult things about being a Christian, is giving thanks even when we don't get our requests answered how we want. Growing in Christ is a learning experience. I know for sure that I am still growing in maturing in Christ. It is difficult sometimes, but Final Word is right. God changes us through prayer. I'm still in the molding process... sometimes it is painful, but trusting in God and loving Him even we don't understand helps us through the difficult times and even gives us joy!!!

 

When I was single, though it hurt a lot, I also felt joy because I enjoyed life and growing in God. As a married lady, I am still growing and I am glad that God doesn't give up on me or anyone who truly seeks Him for having a relationship with Him.

[M30USA]

Thats funny. All Ive seen of people posting in these threads is people saying how God gave them what they wanted. Am I missing something? When religious people get money, a lover, a new job, a house, a car, any and everything. The first thing they do is thank God for answering thier prayers. God is a genie according to almost everybody on this forum.

 

Watch this video by Dr. John MacArthur. He cuts right through the lies of the "prosperity gospel" with razor sharp precision:

 

[BetheButterfly]

Good question. Well, I don't judge other people (at least I try not to lol). That's between them and God I would say. Each person would have to ask God for wisdom regarding their motives. James 1 gives us good guidelines:

 

"If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him."

 

So the first way to know for yourself is one, if you feel a desire in your heart, pray to God for wisdom whether it is a godly desire and in line with God wants for your life. If not, be prepared for that answer and accept God's answer. Second, check it against the bible. Also, ask godly mentors. Check it against those that are older that love you and get their advice.

 

You are right about the super bowl thing (I'm guessing you mean like Tim Tebow?). For money or a spouse, I would say it depends on the motive. If you just want to win the lottery so you can buy mansions I agree with you that's shady. But if a church prays for money to support their ministry, for missionaries, for community centers, I think that is a good thing (assuming the church has good motives). It depends on the motives, which only God really knows. For a spouse, well God (according to Christianity) created marriage. A husband and wife can be a very effective team in ministry, especially if they have life purpose compatibility. I do think that a lot of people want a spouse when they are not ready for one. Also, a lot of people don't do things God's way such as waiting for marriage for sex which causes all kinds of problems.

 

For myself, I have found that God will normally change my heart when I pray. He'll show me if I have the wrong motives. That's where you have to be humble. If He says "No" then I have to leave it at that. That's happened more than once, and it can be easier said than done But you're right, there are a lot of people that claim God did this or that for them, but what they're thanking Him for does not line up with the bible. It's questionable.

 

I find that God changes my heart when I pray too, and shows me areas that I need to work on in order to be the woman He made me to be. Since God is my Heavenly Father, he knows all my imperfections and loves me anyways. That's amazing to me!!!

 

ImperfectionisBeauty,

I'm sorry if I offended you. It was not my intention. God alone knows your heart; noone else does. God alone knows if you truly believe in Him. I don't know and am not your judge. I'm sorry for judging you and assuming that you do not truly believe in God. I didn't appreciate your doubting what God has done in my life, but getting mad at you for not believing me or even caring to get to know me doesn't help anything or show God's love. So, I'm sorry for my behavior to you.

 

Peace and may God bless you, no matter if you believe in Him or not.

Edited September 18, 2012 by BetheButterfly

[Eclypse]

I've been reading a lot on the Jack The Ripper murders so I'll use that as an example. Whitechapel in the 1880s was so impoverished, that many had to resort to prostitution to survive. As the hype from the murders spread like wildfire people must have been terrified. Yet those poor prostitutes still had to walk the streets at night because that was the only way to gain income. They must have prayed to God every night that they wouldn't encounter the killer. Can you imagine then, after taking your client to a back alley and getting ready to do it when you see a glint of steel concealed in his coat, a half-smile on his face? I can only speculate at the sheer terror these women must have felt in the last seconds of their lives. They must have prayed for a miracle, a cop turning the corner, or being able to break free from his grasp. But it was futile. Like the rest, this poor woman had her throat sliced from ear to ear, her abdomen ripped open, organs thrown onto the ground unceremoniously, and her uterus or kidney or vagina (in one case) removed and taken as trophies. As she lay there, her life's blood flowing out, I wonder if she thought of God, and wondered why he had forsaken her, left her to die alone on this cold night.

 

If God is real, then I have no option but to say that he is a sadist. Look at the massacres in Nazi Germany. As people were being led to their deaths in the "showers" I'm sure the remainder prayed for a miracle, for salvation, but none came. They were all killed like dogs.

 

What the hell kind of game is God playing. Did those people deserve to die like that? For Christ's sake they're humans! Just like us! They probably had hopes and dreams like we do, a loving husband, or annoying kids. Who does God think he is playing with people's lives like that?

 

The only explanation I can come up with is that God isn't real. Life is just a bunch of stuff that happens. Some of it good, some of it bad. But for the majority of the world.... mainly bad. I had faith once, but it's been eroded. Any God that behaves so appallingly to the people he created is not a God I want anything to do with.

[ImperfectionisBeauty]

I find that God changes my heart when I pray too, and shows me areas that I need to work on in order to be the woman He made me to be. Since God is my Heavenly Father, he knows all my imperfections and loves me anyways. That's amazing to me!!!

 

ImperfectionisBeauty,

I'm sorry if I offended you. It was not my intention. God alone knows your heart; noone else does. God alone knows if you truly believe in Him. I don't know and am not your judge. I'm sorry for judging you and assuming that you do not truly believe in God. I didn't appreciate your doubting what God has done in my life, but getting mad at you for not believing me or even caring to get to know me doesn't help anything or show God's love. So, I'm sorry for my behavior to you.

 

Peace and may God bless you, no matter if you believe in Him or not.

 

 

No I'm really sorry I'm just in a super bitter place. I shouldn't have said half the stuff I did.

[BetheButterfly]

No I'm really sorry I'm just in a super bitter place. I shouldn't have said half the stuff I did.

 

Well, my judging you and getting mad didn't help any. Thanks for forgiving me. I'm sorry you are having a difficult time.

 

Hugs!!! As others have said, we're here for you. Life definitely has its trials, but love helps us through the painful times and it helps when people support each other, no matter what they are going through.

[TheFinalWord]

"Well, my judging you and getting mad didn't help any"

 

It's okay. I think that other thread just triggered a thought. I don't think you did it out of being malicious. Lots of people don't know much about prayer. I'm glad you gave us this opportunity to discuss:)

 

Perfect timing or an answer to prayer?

 

[strongnrelaxed]

I've been reading a lot on the Jack The Ripper murders so I'll use that as an example. Whitechapel in the 1880s was so impoverished, that many had to resort to prostitution to survive. As the hype from the murders spread like wildfire people must have been terrified. Yet those poor prostitutes still had to walk the streets at night because that was the only way to gain income. They must have prayed to God every night that they wouldn't encounter the killer. Can you imagine then, after taking your client to a back alley and getting ready to do it when you see a glint of steel concealed in his coat, a half-smile on his face? I can only speculate at the sheer terror these women must have felt in the last seconds of their lives. They must have prayed for a miracle, a cop turning the corner, or being able to break free from his grasp. But it was futile. Like the rest, this poor woman had her throat sliced from ear to ear, her abdomen ripped open, organs thrown onto the ground unceremoniously, and her uterus or kidney or vagina (in one case) removed and taken as trophies. As she lay there, her life's blood flowing out, I wonder if she thought of God, and wondered why he had forsaken her, left her to die alone on this cold night.

 

If God is real, then I have no option but to say that he is a sadist. Look at the massacres in Nazi Germany. As people were being led to their deaths in the "showers" I'm sure the remainder prayed for a miracle, for salvation, but none came. They were all killed like dogs.

 

What the hell kind of game is God playing. Did those people deserve to die like that? For Christ's sake they're humans! Just like us! They probably had hopes and dreams like we do, a loving husband, or annoying kids. Who does God think he is playing with people's lives like that?

 

The only explanation I can come up with is that God isn't real. Life is just a bunch of stuff that happens. Some of it good, some of it bad. But for the majority of the world.... mainly bad. I had faith once, but it's been eroded. Any God that behaves so appallingly to the people he created is not a God I want anything to do with.

 

Eclypse, what do you not understand about the term "mysterious ways"?

[TheFinalWord]

Any God that behaves so appallingly to the people he created is not a God I want anything to do with.

 

Question: Did God murder those prostitutes or did another human being do it?

 

Eclypse, what do you not understand about the term "mysterious ways"?

 

Question: Where does the bible say that God works in mysterious ways?

[strongnrelaxed]

Hello,

 

It amazes me how some people think that God should give them what they want or they won't believe in Him.

 

Praying to God is not meant to be demanding what one wants. God is not a genie, Santa Claus, or a wishing well.

 

Prayer requests are not supposed to be demands that God is required to fulfill. Rather, they are simply requests for God to answer how He wills.

 

I am curious. What leads some people to believe that God is simply a Being one can demand what one wants and that God has to obey that demand?

 

What in Christian beliefs causes people to have such an erroneous idea? Is it because of not studying the Bible or knowing people who love God no matter what happens to them?

 

 

 

First of all, I have never, ever - EVER once in my life heard anyone say that prayer is a "demand" Where the hell did this come from (pun intended)? It sounds like another false (aka Straw man) argument meant to make the "mysterious ways" seem more understandable. Sure people are upset if they pray for something and don't get it. There is a reason for this, but any reasonable explanation would fall on deaf ears.

 

So, God only answers prayers as she sees fit according to your post above. Ok, If she wants to heal someone, will she change her mind if no one prays for that person.

 

We know that this is NOT true.

 

Does god let some people suffer or die based on the nature or quality or prayers?

 

I read the bible too, so I know that she does indeed judge the way people pray. After all Cain killed Abel based on jealousy over god's acceptance of his brother's offering.

 

So sincerity matters, but quantity does not. God's will is god's will and we cannot know her will. So prayers ultimately have no real effect. Other than lead to fratricide because of the direction of prevailing winds.

 

There is the infamous amputee argument that pretty much debunks prayer as an actual effective plea to god.

 

So if prayers have no effect on the will of god, they why pray? Either prayers work or they don't.

 

That being said, prayer has a calming effect on believers. In this way I understand the power of prayer. It can do a lot of things. But this is demonstrable and explained by science not divine intervention.

[TheFinalWord]

Regarding the Holocaust. Has anyone asked any Jewish people? I have at a Holocaust memorial. You would be surprised at their answer. All the ones I have met do not blame God.

 

Belief After the Holocaust

 

Sixty years on, people still ask the same questions – Where was G–d during the Holocaust? How can you believe in G–d after the Holocaust? If G–d is just and righteous how could He allow the Holocaust to happen? Why didn’t G–d perform miracles during the Holocaust?

 

Who is asking the question?

 

The questions themselves can only be asked by a believer for if the answer is that there is no G–d (G–d forbid), then there are no questions. Without a G–d, the world has no destiny and no purpose. Human beings may decide to act as they wish for there is no accountability. Super races may be formed and only the fittest will survive. In a G–dless world the Holocaust is not a theological question, rather a statement of how low man can stoop. The question becomes rhetorical – not, “where was G–d during the Holocaust?” but rather, “where was man during the Holocaust?”

[strongnrelaxed]

Question: Did God murder those prostitutes or did another human being do it?

 

Question: Where does the bible say that God works in mysterious ways?

 

What?!! Are you going to sit there and deny the "god works in mysterious ways" claim of your entire belief system?

 

I bet you are smiling about that one TFW. You know you are wrong on this one. How could you!?

 

However, since you asked - a quick Google search turns up the following:

 

Isaiah 55:8-9 (King James Version)

 

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

John 3 also comes to mind: (3:8)

[Jesus said,] "The wind blows where it chooses, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

[TheFinalWord]

Tried editing: here is the link to the above post:

 

Belief After the Holocaust - Key Jewish FAQ's

[TheFinalWord]

What?!! Are you going to sit there and deny the "god works in mysterious ways" claim of your entire belief system?

 

I bet you are smiling about that one TFW. You know you are wrong on this one. How could you!?

 

However, since you asked - a quick Google search turns up the following:

 

Isaiah 55:8-9 (King James Version)

 

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

John 3 also comes to mind: (3:8)

[Jesus said,] "The wind blows where it chooses, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

 

No worries friend. I am asking sincere questions. You can lay your armor down with me. I'm not here to attack you

 

That's a good first attempt. The only thing mysterious about Isaiah 55 to me is how God can be so merciful. To me God's unconditional love is mysterious as it is so far removed from us humans. That full chapter is about repentance. The second one is about being born again. It's in the context of a conversation Christ had with a pharisee, Nicodemus. It is where the infamous John 3:16 comes from. To me the mystery is why God is so merciful.

 

So I think you are right, there is a lot about God that is mysterious. Why does He care at all? Why is He so merciful? That's the way I look at God's mysterious side.