Thinkalot Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 Originally posted by Samson AHHHHHHhhhhhhhh..........................Thinkalot....................I do appreciate your innocent wide-eyed optimism, but marriage doesn't equate to warmth, comfort, love, or security any more than it does excitement. I am thrilled to think that at 31, with a range of life experience, both good and bad behind me, I can be described as having innocent wide-eyed optimism. How lucky for me. My relationship offers me warmth, comfort, love security, and at this point, also excitement and adventure. I can't see that those things will dissapear next April when we marry. I also can't imagine they will last unless we make a big effort to ensure they do. Even then, they may not. But marriage is a leap of faith, and not without risk. Partly that's what makes it so special. Willingness to take a risk. My relationship is not perfect either. Sometimes it can be boring and predictable. Sometimes it's so volatile it's exhausting. But it also carries all the good things mentioned above. It is true the critics of marriage on here are many long term married people. But this is a relationship help forum! Do you think the happy long term married people are bothering to post on here anyway? Anyway, sinner and samson, thank you for not dissapointing... Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 Anyway, sinner and samson, thank you for not dissapointing Shouldn't that be "Statler and Waldorf" ? Link to post Share on other sites
sinner Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 Anyway, sinner and samson, thank you for not dissapointing.. Think, if anyone can succeed in married life, it's you. You'll do just fine. As for me, I had my chances... Link to post Share on other sites
meanon Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 marriage is a leap of faith, and not without risk. Partly that's what makes it so special. Willingness to take a risk. That's what love is too. I think it is the institution that there are problems with, not the people. I've seen too many good, strong marriages fail to believe otherwise. Many do last, remember that too. I can't see a time when young people will not want and plan to be with the one they love forever - marriage or no marriage. It's human nature. The day people refuse to take that risk is the day they will stop falling in love. It isn't going to happen any time soon. Tiger, if he loves you and you are happy then why assume that it's the relationship that is the problem? I think there is a little more to this than meets the eye. The stress you mentioned may be a factor but, although you fail to say it, the unspoken fear is that you may find HIM boring - not just the marriage. People change as they age. It may be that you are outgrowing this relationship, that it's a phase or that it's the rest of your life that needs to change. Time will tell. Link to post Share on other sites
Thinkalot Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Good advice meanon. Thanks sinner for your faith in me. Link to post Share on other sites
shortbus74 Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 the best thing about a ' good marriage' is waking up to the person you love and smiling then cuddling up and hogging the sheets and 3/4 of the bed trying to cuddle is your sleepy state! Link to post Share on other sites
Samson Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 "they cast blame on 'external factors' rather than take a hard look at themselves" Yeah, I'll go get diagnosed for one of the myriad of excuses: AD, HD, AD/HD, HaHa, OCD, OCDP, etc., etc................. Ok Think, don't get the prenupt. Don't even get a dog! You'll never be able to say we didn't warn you! BTW Shortbus: [color=green]BLEH[/color] Link to post Share on other sites
Thinkalot Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Originally posted by Samson Ok Think, don't get the prenupt. Don't even get a dog! You'll never be able to say we didn't warn you! I'll pass on the prenupt. I'll happily get a dog. I'll never say you didn't warn me Link to post Share on other sites
shortbus74 Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Samsom,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, you know you like it.............be G.I Joe and win the battle on the hogging sheets thing Link to post Share on other sites
Thinkalot Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 LOL! I always win that battle. Nothing like spooning together in bed. Link to post Share on other sites
shortbus74 Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 hehe..............think I win too............. Sam is just upset because he loses the battle....... Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 one of the myriad of excuses Yes indeed. People go get themselves troublesome disorders that screw up their lives just so they can have an 'excuse'. I'm glad there's you. It shows me how much work needs to be done in educating people about disorders. A long, LONG road, sadly. As for all this BS about 'institution' - [color=red]THERE IS NO INSTITUTION!!!!!!![/color] There is nothing except pairs of people who sign up to live together the rest of their lives and then quit treating each other well. There isn't a building, an organization, a membership, a leadership or anything else. There are just couples who agree to do what they then proceed to not do Link to post Share on other sites
Thinkalot Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Originally posted by Samson Yeah, I'll go get diagnosed for one of the myriad of excuses: AD, HD, AD/HD, HaHa, OCD, OCDP, etc., etc................. OH...and I promise I won't use MY particular excuse, as an excuse Thinkalot (OCD woman ) Link to post Share on other sites
sinner Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Divorce Magazine reports that, as of 2002, only 52 percent of married people reached their 15th wedding anniversaries; only 33 percent had reached the 25-year mark. The Center for Disease Control’s National Vital Statistics Report found that, as of 2002, 50 percent of first marriages had ended in divorce, and 60 percent of remarriages had also ended with divorce proceedings. The Vital Statistics Report also indicated a quadrupling in the number of divorces over the last quarter of the 20th century, from 4.3 million in 1970 to 18.3 million in 1996. The numbers are staggering. If marriage is not a failed or failing institution, then I don't know what is. And to say they're no dysfunctional institutions, only morally defective people, is to deny the very need for institutional change. With all sharing a hear-no-evil, see-no-evil and speak-no-evil blame-the-victim and excuse-the-institution conservative mentality, the Catholic Church would have maintained its morally authoritarian monopoly over "God" and the liberating Reformation never would have occurred. The Catholic Church was clearly one institution that, for hundreds of years, blamed the heretics, never itself. Much like that other peculiar institution, slavery, where slave holders blamed Abolitionists for that institution's fundamental failings. People do not act, think, relate and create in a vacuum. The quality/suitability of our institutions does matter to real people leading real lives. Institutions must adapt, or die. Marriage has failed people;people have not failed marriage. Link to post Share on other sites
HoldOn Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 No one is forcing you to get married... Link to post Share on other sites
HoldOn Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Hello! Yes, it is true that 50% of marriages currently fail, but seeing as marriage has been around for about 100,000 years, do you think this failure is due to the "institution of marriage" or it is because of bad choices that people have been making lately? Hmmm. Overall, marriage is a good thing. "Research continually reveals that married people are generally physically healthier, happier, live longer, enjoy better mental health, are more fulfilled and less likely to suffer physical abuse. " People who are married (rather than co-habitating, as an example) are less likely to be alcoholic or suffer abuse or commit suicide. And they are MORE likely to report that their lives are happy. Sounds like a chance I would like to take. http://www.troubledwith.com/stellent/groups/public/%5C@fotf_troubledwith/documents/articles/twi_036526.cfm?channel=Love%20and%20Sex&topic=Living%20Together&sssct=Questions%20and%20Answers Link to post Share on other sites
Samson Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Holdon, Good luck. No doubt that good marriages are only good for the few lottery winners that have them. But as Sinner's evidence clearly shows, few marriage are "good." BTW, gambling, drinking, smoking; all around for 100,000+ years. Your right, so has marriage, another social ill. So, while we watch the slow death of another harmful habit (thanks sinner for the clear "common sense"), lets try to minimize the damage: Prenuptual agreements should be manditory, they should include some premaritial counselling from lawyers that will let all parties know their legal responsabilities. Also inclusive would be a manditory marriage board (sort of a parole board ) that after two years could nullify the marriage (let the couple free based on..................bad (OCDPish?..........behavior). Moimeme: I'm glad there's you. It shows me how much work needs to be done in educating people about disorders. A long, LONG road, sadly. They have become the reflex excuse for every misanthropic behavior. Thinkalot: Bravo for rejecting the use of a label to hide behind. Link to post Share on other sites
HoldOn Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Ahhh, but there is a difference between marriage and "gambling, drinking, smoking." These things have not been seen as social goods in most cases, wheras marriage has been. Obviously you have had a bad experience in marriage and you are not looking at things clearly. No offense. But it's like asking someone who is allergic to flowers whether they like roses. Rather than letting people get divorced more easily, I think we should make it more difficult. It's ALREADY easy to get a divorce. You don't even need a reason. You just decide one day you want to be alone and you file some papers and poof! you are single again. (I know I am exaggerating, but ANYONE can get a divorce if they want it.) I think there should be two types of recognized marriages. "Civil unions" for people who just want the convenience and "traditional marriage" for those who want the real marriage. People could get out of a civil union at any time. But you would need a good reason to get out of marriage. If a couple knows that a divorce is difficult to obtain, they would be more careful about getting married in the first place. Also, there should be more counselling available for people who want to keep their marriages together. Link to post Share on other sites
Samson Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Holdon, Obviously you have had a bad experience with drinking, smoking, and gambling and you are not looking at things clearly. You know, there's always going to be a dogmatic group that beats up the messenger to refuse the message: Holdon, sinner gives more than a common sense assesment of marriage's failure, he gives the stats, whether you like them or not, they're there: MOST marriages end with divorce, broken homes, and harmful effects. You just decide one day you want to be alone and you file some papers and poof! you are single again. (I know I am exaggerating, but ANYONE can get a divorce if they want it.) Exaggerating?????????????????? No, you are hallucinating. And I mean that in a good, rose-colored glasses sort of way. Link to post Share on other sites
HoldOn Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Obviously you have had a bad experience with drinking, smoking, and gambling and you are not looking at things clearly. Ha ha. no, I love drinking and smoking... Mmmmm. Smoking. sinner gives more than a common sense assesment of marriage's failure, he gives the stats, whether you like them or not, they're there: MOST marriages end with divorce, broken homes, and harmful effects. I never denied that most marriages end in divorce. I agree with that fact. We are arguing about WHY this is the case and WHAT we should do about it. You believe that marriage should be less respected, wheras I believe we should put more stock into marriage and work on saving it rather than throwing it away. Best case scenario is a healthy marriage. Next is being single. Last is an unhealthy marriage. I agree that a bad marriage is the worst scenario, BUT that doesn't mean that marriage itself is bad. http://www.acf.hhs.gov/healthymarriage/benefits/ http://www.fcs.okstate.edu/health/articles/The_Beauty_and_Benefits_of_Marriage.htm Link to post Share on other sites
Thinkalot Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 LOL! The same arguments go back and forth, arguing the merits, or lack thereof, for marriage... I always do enjoy these threads though. Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 They have become the reflex excuse for every misanthropic behavior. SIGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH Samson. There is a BIG difference between 'explanation' and 'excuse'. The former is a basis for understanding, and the beginning of prevention and cure and THAT is why it is vital to recognize disorders. The latter is BS. MOST people with disorders are not interested in having 'excuses' . In fact, they puzzle themselves in terms of why they do what they do. Once they have EXPLANATIONS, that gives them something to work on and work towards. Or, you could just decide that anybody with a disorder is not in need of assistance, but is just a rotten SOB that you should condemn and berate. Because that is SO much more productive in the long run. Link to post Share on other sites
sinner Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 Samson, what's your excuse!? Wait, I mean what's your explanation!? Ah, hell: It's all BS!!! Link to post Share on other sites
Thinkalot Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 I am picturing a debate room.... on one side, sits Thinkalot, and perhaps moi...on the other Samson, and Sinner.... the topic : Marriage... it's meaning, validity, worth, and the reasons it fails... LOL! watch the sparks fly Link to post Share on other sites
sinner Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 I am picturing a debate room.... on one side, sits Thinkalot, and perhaps moi...on the other Samson, and Sinner.... the topic : Marriage... it's meaning, validity, worth, and the reasons it fails... LOL! watch the sparks fly I like your idea, Thinkalot. Then, after the debate, we can ALL get married!!! Then you'd really see some sparks fly. Link to post Share on other sites
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