Debunking Astrology

[dyermaker]

I didn't want to put this in the relationships thread, because I didn't want to distract people from answering Kizzyfur's original question.

 

I want to examine the validity of astrology academically. I'll reveal my bias right now, I think it's a load of crap. Maybe I'm wrong. I remember reading that the Reagan administration coordinated white house schedules based on an astrologer's predictions, and that guy singlehandedly ended the cold war--so perhaps I should give it a second look.

 

Let's start this off. I was born on September 7th. This, according to Horoscope.com, makes me a "Virgo". Virgos are organized, rational, and conservative. Like me. Not.

 

Horoscope.com's prediction for me today:

"Someone may be trying to hold you back or stop you from following your dream. Take a look around you and consider what and who you should eliminate from your life. "

Vague and not personally relevant, but hey--it could happen. There could be among us people who are trying to thwart my dreams. But think of it this way. Stipulating that people are having sex every day, 1/12th of the world shares my fortune. That means, today, 500 million people are ALSO having their dreams thwarted. It's disconcerting to think that there are only twelve daily destinies.

 

Additionally, I couldn't help but notice that I'm getting DIFFERENT readings from different sources.

 

Yahoo.com says:

The current astrological weather is perfect for hosting 'heated' encounters -- the nice kind, that is. Don't avoid any issues, no matter how touchy. You never know what might come of them.

I'm told not to avoid any issues. Keeping in mind that I'm today to have my dreams thwarted, I obviously must find the evil dream-thwarter and confront him or her.

 

I checked everyone elses horoscopes, none of them read, "Today you will thwart some virgo's dreams"--Darn, I thought I was being clever that time.

 

Next I checked the New York Post. Except for announcing V.P. candidates, they're extremely reputable. Also, Rupert Murdoch has a reputation for being Fair and Balanced, so he might be able to bring some clarity to my life.

You may have to cut back on your social commitments today, maybe even let someone down, but there is no point in trying to be friendly if your heart is not in it. The sun in Leo at this time of year makes you want to retreat into your shell and not get too involved, and you are perfectly entitled to keep your distance.

Notice how this vague one-size-fits-all reading completely contradicts the other two. One suggests that I confront people, the other suggests I cut back on my social commitments and refrain from being friendly. One demands that I investigate people who are ruining my dreams, and the other "entitles" me to keep my distance. What gives?

 

I could get a "detailed" reading, and ask these questions, by dialing 1-900-990-7815. However, it says that I have to be 18 years or older to call, and I'm not, so until I'm an adult I'm doomed to no clarity whatsoever.

 

I am not daunted, I will look on.

 

Perhaps the New York Post horoscope is inaccurate because I'm not from New York. I'll disregard their readings in the future. I'll check SFGate, closer to home.

 

Someone doesn't feel like he/she owes you an apology. Don't push it. When the tables turn (and they will) this insult becomes an advantage.

Hmm, this is perplexing. I think whoever's out to ruin my dreams is calculating and unapologetic, and it will be a while before the tables turn and I can be the bigger man about it.

 

There's another link to the LATimes horoscope, which is close enough to home to be relevant, but far enough away from the Haight-Ashbury to be uninfected with hippie vibes.

 

Trust intuition over reason as you consider your career alternatives. You feel ready to move up, but if you want to be king or queen of the castle, you might have to dethrone someone. Choose your companions well.

I'll disregard the first part, as I have no career and it's summer vacation. Perhaps that was for the other 500 million people. This next part, however, comes as a HUGE shocker! I might have to DETHRONE someone? Now *I'm* ruining somebody's dreams. I'm going to have a bunch of angry virgos turn on me. I already feel like I owe someone an apology.

 

Before I get dethroned, or do something to dethrone another, I'd better do what more than one have advised me. I'd better "choose my companions well", "cut back on social commitments", and "find out who I should eliminate from my life".

 

I have Mom, Dad, my friend Marco, and of course my Love. The rest of the people in my life are either unimportant, or I don't know their birthday.

 

Both my Dad and my friend Marco are scorpios. I assume if they're out to ruin my life, they'd collaborate, or something. Maybe they'd take turns.

 

Horoscope.com : Work from home or a place you find peaceful today, if you can.

LATimes : This is not a good day to buy a pet.

SFGate: You resent a boss withholding approval. If you got it now wouldn't you slack off? You're on the right path, but far from the finish line.

Yahoo : Don't make this decision in a vacuum. This time, you need outside counsel.

 

Okay. Two of the horoscopes have to do with careers, which rules out Marco. Marco explains to me that he's hispanic, and he'll never have a career. I replied, "That's defeatist, you'll do fine--just don't buy a pet today". My Dad didn't work from home today, I'll assure you. Perhaps my dad didn't work from home today because he's interested in his boss' approval. It's interesting to note that anyone who has a decision to make (pet purchases, perhaps) would have already sought outside counsel just by going to visit his horoscope. Sorry, I'm getting off track. I'm trying to find people who are out to thwart my dreams. Although it has been a dream of mine to own a pet, I understand that we're renters and we can't get it--so by not purchasing one, neither Dad nor Marco are actually thwarting my dreams.

 

Verdict : Marco and Dad can stay in my life. For now.

 

My mom's a Sagitarrius. I think it's important to note that while my Mom doesn't believe in Astrology, she definitely resents being born in December, both because it decreases the yield of Christmas gifts, and because Turquiouse, quoth she, is the lamest birthstone. Moving right along:

 

Horoscope.com : You will discover a new way of doing things through the company you keep today. Join forces with people who believe in reform and helping others.

LATimes : Don't acquiesce to the demands of others or try to cover for a person who won't do his or her share. Say what is on your mind.

SFGate : Life would be easier if you were an underachiever. But that's your comfort level talking. You were meant to pursue far-reaching aims.

Yahoo : You'll never get what you want if you don't know what it is. Identify your target.

 

It's interesting that these somewhat correspond with each other. I'm going to throw out "Horoscope.com", as mom's never been the "join forces in helping others" kind of person. LATimes is dead on, she's definitely more of the "Say what is on your mind" kind of person. It's clear that today my mother is going to pursue far-reaching aims, after she identifies her target. At 2:30 today, I got a "watch out" phone call from Dad, explaining that today is the start of "That time of the month", and that Mom is very mad at Dad. So today, it looks like I'm off the hook.

 

Verdict : Mom can stay. I might ask her for a pet.

 

Now, my Love. I'm nervous about this one, because, despite my attempts at debunking astrology in the past, she believes in this crap. So it's possible she's already read some of the stuff we're reading about her.

 

Horoscope.com : You have what it takes, so get moving. Present your ideas to people in the know and you will find yourself moving in a new direction. You are in a high romantic cycle.

LATimes : Anyone you've had a disagreement with can now be re-approached to happy results.

SFGate : A cease-fire holds. Curb the impulse to see how things are doing. Neither of you should question the other. You both have a lot to prove.

Yahoo : Of course you're overwhelmed: Look at all you have to do! When in doubt, delegate.

New York Post : There is only one thing that can hold you back from accomplishing great deeds this year and that is if you lack of self-confidence.

 

I added New York Post because she's on vacation in New York as we speak, and yes, I miss her. It's a bummer I missed her on her "High romantic cycle", yeah? Both the California publication seem to imply we've had a recent disagreement, which is far from the truth. We never fight, and as far as I know, her self-confidence is fine. I'll have to remind her not to ever question me though. Nothing about ruining my dreams. Maybe because she's overwhelmed and can't find time to ruin my dreams--let's hope she doesn't delegate.

 

Verdict : She can stay.

 

So, I guess it's you guys.

 

Anyone else want to enlighten me with an astrological journey? Defend this psuedoscience? Question my academic process?

[Meow]

Astrology is really hard to understand. I've got a recent interest in it myself. There is a LOT of stuff that influences this stuff. Did you know that in addition to the sun, there's a sighn for every planet and the moon? I don't know what they all mean. I know that the sun sighn-- (the main one--) influences your personality, while the moon sign influences your emotions.

 

No one is going to fit their sign to perfection. And I've found that as I've gotten a little older, though I'm not 18 either, that I've grown to fit my sighn much more than when I was little.

 

I'm a piscean. I'm artistic, and emotional-- like a piscean should be. However, I have no rythm, which pisceans are supposed to have. But otherwise I make an okay pisces. My moon sign is Capricorn. This makes me mature and organized. I'm not, really that way in my personality-- My room hasn't been clened since I was six. However, I've been able to keep journals since the fourth grade, and I consider that to be a sign of emotional organization.

 

I recomend buying a beginner level book on astrology. That's what I've got. IU bought it for about 2 bucks in the eighth grade, at a book fair. It's really fascinating.

 

And as for finding an accurate horoscope, I strongly reccomend looking at one that focuses on the monthe. They're much more accurate. There's one in the artvoice of my local newspaper (Buffalo) that offers advice to go with the horoscopes that usually ends up in use.

[moimeme]

I doubt anybody lives by the daily horoscopes, Dyer. They are amusement. Don't know if you saw my post in Kizzy's thread, but there may be some correlation between time of year and personality characteristics. Could be any one of hundreds of reasons for the correlation, but they have been noted. By genuine scientists. I don't think I kept the link to the report, or if I did, it's in an old archive, but it was authoritative.

 

If anything's discovered to be true, it will not be that the positions of the signs affect people, but rather that the conditions that exist during the time of the year that those constellations appear somehow affect the fetus.

[Paradise]

Actually some people believe in it fully and some believe it to be their way of life.

I think Chinese are more into it then the western society though, as it goes back thousands of years.

Only now west are catching on to Feng Shui.

Once I had a gf who wanted to time my trip to Vegas to win, of course I lost my ass in Vegas.

As for me, I don't read the horrible-scope because it distorts my true destiny.

[Meow]

I don't see how the time of year matters too much. Astology is a respected practice all over the world. We don't all have the same weather, you know.

 

Mercury-Communication/ interaction with others

 

Venus---Love. How you give and receive. Also financial -- how you give and receive money.

 

Jupitor-Spirituality and professional pursuits.

 

Saturn--restictions in life & past life karma.

 

The rest are not known to me...

 

Oops! Silly me, I forgot mars.

 

mars----Aggression, war, sex drive, enery, physical expression.

 

(How could I forget the most fun one?)

[packersgirl]

Well Dyer, I read my horoscope everyday. Every morning I wake up, sign onto MSN, read my mail then on to the horoscope!!! Mine for today was:

 

A good tip for you to remember is to be careful about what you say about other people, dear Virgo. If you are speaking about someone who is not present, act as if they are. What is your motivation for saying the things you want to say? Is it really necessary to speak in such a manner? A negative comment about someone else is going to resonate throughout the cosmos. People will lose their trust in you.

 

As you can tell from that, I too am a Virgo. Although I only read these things for fun, oddly enough at times they're dead on. Lets see... today's is fairly general. Obviously its not smart and never good to talk about people behind their backs. And its a rule of mine to keep in mind to speak of a person only as if they were present. Thinking back on today, I don't believe I spoke in a manner that was unacceptable, especially about someone who wasn't present. The only other horoscope I read is from webshots.com. The place where I download my screensavers. They're nice enough to give me yesterdays, todays and tomorrows!! This one says:

 

Yesterday - You're in the mood to make changes. The good news is that everyone around you is ready to accept them. You can't ask for better astrological weather. Move! Today - Take one last, lingering glance backwards -- and then walk away. You need to put the past behind you, and think about what's really, really important to you now. Tomorrow - The current astrological weather is perfect for hosting 'heated' encounters -- the nice kind, that is. Don't avoid any issues, no matter how touchy. You never know what might come of them.

 

Lets see now.. yesterday the only changes I made were the changes in my attitude at work. I wasn't supposed to be there, and I didn't want to work. Therefore I did a lot of complaining and helped a co-worker irritate my boss... it was kind of fun actually . Today... yet another vague horoscope. I don't live in the past, nothing is accomplished by that. I guess this one was directed towards all those Virgo's who dwell in the past. Tomorrow... odd how that is the exact same one from the yahoo horoscope... interesting...

 

Its always fun to read them, but I never take them serisouly.

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by Meow

Astrology is really hard to understand. I've got a recent interest in it myself. There is a LOT of stuff that influences this stuff. Did you know that in addition to the sun, there's a sighn for every planet and the moon? I don't know what they all mean. I know that the sun sighn-- (the main one--) influences your personality, while the moon sign influences your emotions.

I think that further adds credibility to the "It's all bullcrap" argument.

 

If astrology is an age-old practice, how is there stuff for every planet? Some of those planets are fairly new, in terms of their discovery.

I'm a piscean. I'm artistic, and emotional-- like a piscean should be. However, I have no rythm, which pisceans are supposed to have. But otherwise I make an okay pisces. My moon sign is Capricorn. This makes me mature and organized. I'm not, really that way in my personality-- My room hasn't been clened since I was six. However, I've been able to keep journals since the fourth grade, and I consider that to be a sign of emotional organization.

Look at ALL of the traits for ALL of the signs. You'll find traits from all twelve that "hit" you, and you'll overlook the misses. I just think it's strange that, if I were to rank which sounds like me, the one I am is the one I'm least. A lot of the traits are complimentary, like "artistic" or "a leader"--things you'd want yourself to be. Additionally, people are very multi-faceted. I'd bet a good 90% of women would call themselves "emotional".

 

Originally posted by moimeme

If anything's discovered to be true, it will not be that the positions of the signs affect people, but rather that the conditions that exist during the time of the year that those constellations appear somehow affect the fetus.

I'd be VERY interested in scientific data on how stars at the time of BIRTH affect your personality. That's the way to sway a skeptic like me, not anecdotes or gentle nudging.

 

Originally posted by Paradise

Actually some people believe in it fully and some believe it to be their way of life.

Some people talk to orange juice.

I think Chinese are more into it then the western society though, as it goes back thousands of years.

Only now west are catching on to Feng Shui.

As far as I know the Chinese Zodiac and Feng Shui are two different cultural arbitrary BS moneytrap practices. The Chinese Zodiac, in my opinion, is even more bogus, as it's based on (as far as I know) the YEAR you were born. So even though I'm a Dragon, which I'm told is very cool, half my class is a Dragon too.

 

Originally posted by packersgirl

As you can tell from that, I too am a Virgo. Although I only read these things for fun, oddly enough at times they're dead on.

Law of really big numbers.

 

It actually upsets me that:

1) People honestly seek guidance for this, become dependent on it, etc.

2) People profit from #1

[moimeme]

I'd be VERY interested in scientific data on how stars at the time of BIRTH affect your personality

 

I do believe I already said that it is NOT the stars. It is weather maybe or amount of sun the mother gets or water or food or air or something that is verifiable. They are trying to figure out what. There are some differences which were noted and correlated to time of year people are born. My favourite is that more geniuses are born under the sign of Aquarius than any other LOL. One speculation is that mothers have access to more and better fruits and veg if early pregnancy takes place during the summer - so out pop smart winter babies. There are enough potential variables that it might take a good while to sort out.

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by moimeme

I do believe I already said that it is NOT the stars.

Wow. You did. And Virgos are supposed to be observant.

It is weather maybe or amount of sun the mother gets or water or food or air or something that is verifiable. They are trying to figure out what. There are some differences which were noted and correlated to time of year people are born.

Baloney, in my opinon. There are too many different local climates to make any universal predictions, not to mention the seasons are backwards in half the world. Additionally, nowadays, people have awful diets, and, here in California at least, you can get good fruit all year round.

 

I know for a fact I was incubated on McDonalds, (Diet ) Coke, and Smarties.

[Meow]

Hey, I beleive in astrology. As a matter of fact, the more I ead about it the more I beleive. And as for only agreeing with positive traits, I confess to being needy and inecure, as well as to being a space case with low self-esteem.

 

I've found that the traits of a particular sign fit some people too well to be mere coincidence. I can't match myself to be an other sighn but Pisces. My mother's a leo and that fits her perfectly. And your outspoken other-- the saggitarius. Billy Idol's a saggitarius. A punk rocker! Does it get to be more of a fit, or what? The archer and his steel horse... Mmm... And his mars is SCORPIO! Mmm!!!

 

(ahem... I'll be all right...)

 

Daily horoscopes are for entertainment. I'd bet that the "astrologers" who do them don't wanna stand up on their roofs all night making 12 charts for the next day.

 

I guess you can't really beleive in astrology if you don't beleive in fate. Actually it would kind of make sense that a saggitarius wouldn't beleive in fate, wouldn't it? Because they're rebels and don't beleive that anything should be preset and tie them down. (stares out into space.. SIGH...) (It's too bad Billy would only break my heart with his wanton and promiscuous ways...)

 

Well, I don't know Billy Idol. But you can understand why I fantasize, can't you? ha ha ha... Disregaurd the parts about Billy Idol, please. I should keep my fantasies to myself...

[faux]

In many ways, I see science in much the same light as I view Astrology. Neither can be proved completely accurate, or completely inaccurate. The advantage science has is in that a majority of people choose to believe it is the truth. So far, the laws laid out in the sciences appear to apply perfectly.

 

There have been, in the past, instances in which scientists had to struggle to find a way of explaining something so that it works with our present laws and beliefs. Consider for a moment the bursts of gamma radiation which can be observed from Earth, littering the sky. These gamma bursts originate from the very edge of our universe, and science tells us that it is not possible for such bursts to yield incredibly high amounts of energy, as for them to be visible from our planet.

 

This impossibility stems from Einstein's theories. According to him, and what we base much of our present-day scientific beliefs on, it is not possible for an explosion to yield such high amounts of energy from the edge of our universe, as to be seen clearly, and measured with such magnitude, here from Earth. If this were possible, Einstein would be wrong about many things!

 

These radiation bursts have, on occasion, yielded more energy than the famous "big bang", according to scientists. At present, science only believes it has found a possible solution to this gamma ray mystery. No one is absolutely certain that it can, in fact, be explained away using our present scientific laws. It is still quite possible that much of what we know of science is incorrect.

 

We are choosing to accept, for the moment, that these gamma ray bursts originate from black holes. The energy is funneled into one fine point, similar to a laser beam, so that it can travel such large distances without losing its "punch". If this is true, then science is safe. Unfortunately, we only at present believe this to be true. If these bursts are happening in some other way, and they are not, in fact, confined to such fine and long-traveled beams, we have a problem.

 

Dark matter, as well, is still giving us problems. We can infer that dark matter exists, but it remains quite a mystery. Am I to believe that dark matter is really what helps to hold our universe together, simply because it is a convenient explanation?

 

It may be true that a man was found walking past the victim's house at the appropriate hour, that the man was dressed "suspiciously", and that the man had a great dislike for the victim. It may be true that the man's finger prints were found on the front door, but it cannot be directly proven that this man committed, or had anything to do with, the crime. We can make inferences from such circumstantial evidence, but it is up to us to choose what we believe to be the truth in such a situation. If this man is, in fact, innocent, is it then right to find him guilty for a crime because it is convenient for us to do so?

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by faux

So far, the laws laid out in the sciences appear to apply perfectly.

That's the difference in reasoning. With real science, you can conduct an experiment and observe results. With pseudoscience, you accept coincidences as evidence and mistakes as 'things we can't quite understand'.

 

It may be true that a man was found walking past the victim's house at the appropriate hour, that the man was dressed "suspiciously", and that the man had a great dislike for the victim. It may be true that the man's finger prints were found on the front door, but it cannot be directly proven that this man committed, or had anything to do with, the crime. We can make inferences from such circumstantial evidence, but it is up to us to choose what we believe to be the truth in such a situation. If this man is, in fact, innocent, is it then right to find him guilty for a crime because it is convenient for us to do so?

You're mistaking covenience for reasonable doubt. My jury's not quite out on astrology.

[packersgirl]

Like I've said in my previous post, I usually just read my horoscope for fun and never ever take it seriously. And every once in a while it hits dead on... like today...

 

You might be experiencing a great deal of emotional confusion, dear Virgo. There is a debate brewing inside you - and you are having a hard time deciding whether to pursue the practical or the more fanciful. Looking to others for help may only add to the maelstrom, so take other people's advice with a grain of sand. If nothing seems clear to you, then wait out the storm and proceed when you have a better handle on the weather.

 

So, I worked all day today. Long long day. I dealt with stupid people, who told me stupid things, and my mind wandered. I have a tendency to worry, and sometimes I read into things... actually I always read into things (actions by others, school work questions, why we do certain things @ work, ect...), its like second nature. But today I let my emotions get the best of me (and I don't let that happen unless its "that time" again). I thought I had things figured out, but stupid people who told me stupid things led me to "a great deal of emotional confusion". There is a debate brewing inside of me, and I am having a hard time deciding to pursue the logical course over what I want to happen. I texted a friend who knows what I'm going through right now, and she was a great listener but no help.

 

Now, although today was dead on, it's one of the few times its ever been dead on. I mean, how many times in a week are all ya'll dealing with some emotional stress? And how many times are your close confidants absolutely no help? We all have personal storms we weather, and we all have to ride them out. So, as personal as this horoscope was to me today, it was still very general and vague.

 

My thoughts on horoscopes have not changed. I still only read them for fun, they have no significant meaning in my life but for sheer enjoyment.

[reasontosigh]

As far as I know the Chinese Zodiac and Feng Shui are two different cultural arbitrary BS moneytrap practices.

 

As far as I know, they are indeed diferent practices.

 

 

The Chinese Zodiac, in my opinion, is even more bogus, as it's based on (as far as I know) the YEAR you were born.

 

True, to an extent. The exception is if your birth date falls before the Chinese New Year, as mine does.

 

If I were to go solely by birth year, I would be a Rat. I have since learned that because my birthday is early in the year, before the Chinese New Year, I actually fall under the year of the Pig.

 

Either way, it sure sounds appealing, doesn't it???

[Paradise]

Originally posted by dyermaker

Some people talk to orange juice.

wdf?

only you would.