Men talking about women

[PJKino]

forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts4048224.aspx

 

forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts15567397.aspx

 

AS a short guy threads like these show how much women are unattracted to us so stop whining and act like its only women being persecuted and men being mean and shallow your gedner is equally as bad if not worse

[Negative Nancy]

No one wants to be treated as an object. I do online dating, and I understand that (besides a good first email), my education level, "what I do" (i.e., solid income), and even what I look like is what will get me the date. But I want to be seen as more than that, and most any other guy who actually has experience would say the same thing. If a woman approached me from say online and said that she was looking for an educated man with a good income and that from my profile I qualify, I would not write her back. Even if I was attracted to her. I'd feel too much like an object. This would hold if you replaced the adjectives "educated" and "with a good income" with "handsome" or "with a great body".

 

So yes, as men we want to think of ourselves as winners on the one hand. We take pride in "what we do" and even what we can afford. But on the other hand, we fantasize on some level about a woman who would still be into us even if we lost our jobs and our money, because she is into us because of us. We don't want to be thought of as an ATM, at least, those of us with any self-respect.

 

I think something similar is true for women. They know beauty is the milkshake that brings the boys into the yard, and they want to think of themselves as beautiful. But women don't want to be liked only for their looks because that makes them feel objectified. And they fantasize on some level for a man who will stick by them even if/when their looks go.

 

finally a man who gets it. excellent posting.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Negative Nancy

[surlyboy]

When a lot of guys talk about dating, or anything to do with it, inevitably we tend to talk about the woman's physique. Not usually to be disparaging (some guys are, and quite vocal about it), but we generally gravitate towards that area.

 

Now, I do love a woman's body. I like looking at it, I like talking about it, I like feeling it. And I'm sure most guys here do too. I like all kind of bodies too, it's probably a good thing that no woman's body is the same. I can freely admit it with a smile .

 

But every now and then, there are dissenters that think we are somehow bad for talking about women's bodies. The problem that I have with this is that they assume that it is all we care about. I have actually gone at great lengths to talk about many other things that I am attracted to about women that do not include her body, as have quite a few guys I know both offline and online. But it seems it is not enough.

 

So what is the solution? Do we stop talking about or acknowledging a woman's body just to appease?

 

Sounds like a ridiculous question.

 

My two cents is that people need to get over it. That's how guys are wired...we are not women. Women's needs are totally different than our own. They desire affection, conversation, financial and family commitment, openness and honesty. Men desire sexual fulfillment, a good looking partner, an activity partner and domestic help/support. Every guy wants a good woman with self esteem and confidence. A woman who has his back, who he can relate to and be himself around. I could never say a woman's personality is not important. It is extremely important to me. But speaking truth...that connection will only have a chance to develop after I've determined that I'd tap it. I'm sorry if I offend anyone, but a woman's intellect and her personality don't make me erect, so it starts with the looks and body.

[Woggle]

Street harassment is an entirely different thing but you will never stop men from being sexually attracted to women. It is part of what keeps the species going. Also like I said men who don't somewhat treat women like objects get friendzoned.

[joystickd]

An article that should be read. The social programming of women often leaves many men confused and frustrated - Los Angeles Men's Dating Advice | Examiner.com

 

Interesting read and some great points are made in this article although some of the opponents on here may not agree with it.

[joystickd]

Street harassment is an entirely different thing but you will never stop men from being sexually attracted to women. It is part of what keeps the species going. Also like I said men who don't somewhat treat women like objects get friendzoned.

100% true the women that I have met where it transitioned into something more I actually said something sexual or about them physically early on. The times I tried to be nice, polite and respectful it didnt transition into more. That is kind of the disconnect with me on this whole me not saying whatever because the reality is to a lot of men that is what gets them the success with women. It's that being bold enough to say some things that make women see them in a different light.

[Els]

Well, I don't think anyone has the right to tell you that you CAN'T do something, when it is perfectly within your legal rights to do so - you don't need someone's consent to talk about them. But just as you have the right to do so, others have the right to respond however they see fit to it - be it not liking it, or even not liking you.

 

Speaking for myself, IRL I think of discussions/criticisms towards a specific person's body the same way I think of couples arguing in public - they have every right to do so, but I'm not interested in participating in it and I don't much care to hear it.

 

On LS, this topic in particular doesn't bother me, but it usually spawns into one of several offshoots that does:

 

- Derogatory comments towards a person who has never done you any wrong, save perhaps offended the eyesight. I really don't see the need to call a short guy 'a puny little midget who'd need a stool to reach the dinner table' or an overweight woman 'a waddling fat ball of estrogen' (the last actually is a semi-accurate quote from LS )

 

-Assuming that one's approach to women and preferences for them must necessarily extend to all other men as well, and denying/shooting down anyone who offers anecdotal evidence to the contrary.

 

- Being the primary thing described about a woman one is pursuing or in a R with. Nothing -wrong- with this, just my personal preference. Would never go out with a guy is engrossed in women's bodies to the exclusion of most other things, and especially not if he felt the need to talk about it all the time.

 

- This one is more of a personal thing than anything else - it annoys me to hell to watch a group of geeky, average-or-below-average-looking guys launch into an exhaustive discussion on women and their bodies. This one is uber HAWT, one says; no, her legs are too skinny and her nose too big, that one is much better, and has bigger boobs too, says the other; yeah, I'd never hit that, agrees the third. The ironic reality is that none of them would even stand a chance of GETTING to 'hit that', because half of them have the social skills of a well-meaning black cat, and the other half have never lifted a single finger to improve their own appearance in their lifetimes. Criticizing girls whom they don't even stand a chance with seems to be a form of congratulatory self-delusion in this case.

 

(All of the above doesn't apply to you, Wholigan, I think you're a great poster and I've not found any of your comments offensive , but I've seen the above waaaayy too much to have any more tolerance for it)

[Bristolius]

Think about what it means to feel objectified.

 

"I feel that you don't see me as a complete human being."

 

Do feelings give you telepathy? Could you be be wrong despite your feelings?

 

Some men think women are good for nothing but sex. Lots of men never forget that women have their own lives, hopes and dreams, dignity, and inherent human value. Both groups of men like the way women look.

[yongyong]

The thing is

If a fat guy wants to date a hot girl, I will tell him you are a fat ass, hit the gym. When non-attractive looking guy asks about dating advice at mens forum, guys will tell him you should lose weight, buy nice clothes, change your hair, get rid of that ugly shoes etc. Guys are more honest and realistic.

 

What women do in this situation? I don't think they will pick on her appearance. Instead, they will just say 'you are a good person blah blah'

 

I really think, to be a couple, they have to look at least compatible.

 

I try not to offend people so I just use extreme example.

Let's say, I say 'if she is heavier than me, I can't date her'

(I am 6'2" 200lbs. Average height for women is I say 5'6". If she is over 200 lbs at that height, she is not a Woman in my eye)

Then these psycho females get mad and tell me how shallow I am.

 

They keep saying 'it's about personality' and throw double standards

(when I am uglier than you, you should look at my personality. If you are uglier than me, then sorry.)

 

 

 

 

 

- This one is more of a personal thing than anything else - it annoys me to hell to watch a group of geeky, average-or-below-average-looking guys launch into an exhaustive discussion on women and their bodies. This one is uber HAWT, one says; no, her legs are too skinny and her nose too big, that one is much better, and has bigger boobs too, says the other; yeah, I'd never hit that, agrees the third. The ironic reality is that none of them would even stand a chance of GETTING to 'hit that', because half of them have the social skills of a well-meaning black cat, and the other half have never lifted a single finger to improve their own appearance in their lifetimes. Criticizing girls whom they don't even stand a chance with seems to be a form of congratulatory self-delusion in this case.

[PJKino]

 

 

- This one is more of a personal thing than anything else - it annoys me to hell to watch a group of geeky, average-or-below-average-looking guys launch into an exhaustive discussion on women and their bodies. This one is uber HAWT, one says; no, her legs are too skinny and her nose too big, that one is much better, and has bigger boobs too, says the other; yeah, I'd never hit that, agrees the third. The ironic reality is that none of them would even stand a chance of GETTING to 'hit that', because half of them have the social skills of a well-meaning black cat, and the other half have never lifted a single finger to improve their own appearance in their lifetimes. Criticizing girls whom they don't even stand a chance with seems to be a form of congratulatory self-delusion in this case.

 

 

thats sort of how i feel on pof and datehookup forums bunch of overweight women with nasty attitudes and unpleasant faces who rip short men as if any guy is kicking their doors down to be with them short or tall

Edited September 22, 2012 by PJKino

[verhrzn]

But we're not discussing street harassment. Veggirl isn't even on the street.... she's speaking about strangers at a gas station. At her work. AKA, not on the street.

 

I have said in this thread over and over and over again.... I do not want men to stop being attracted to women. Heck, I don't even want them to stop making positive comments about a girl's body. But I want the guys to find out FIRST if those advances are wanted. In other words, have a flirty conversation with a girl FIRST in which she gives you signs that she is romantically interested in you BEFORE you pull out the sexual comments/discussions of her body.

 

If you have not had even had a conversation with a girl where she has given you her name, keep your comments about her body to yourself.

 

Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp? Why do you guys keep turning it into a straw man of "well women do it!" or "stop trying to change men!" when I am NOT arguing EITHER of those things!

 

Ladies, help me out.... why is this message not getting through?

[MrCastle]

They keep saying 'it's about personality' and throw double standards

(when I am uglier than you, you should look at my personality. If you are uglier than me, then sorry.)

 

Absolutely beautiful point. I think both genders do this, but yes; you reject someone because of how they look, and when someone does it to you, they're shallow people who didn't judge you on your personality.

[ThaWholigan]

But we're not discussing street harassment. Veggirl isn't even on the street.... she's speaking about strangers at a gas station. At her work. AKA, not on the street.

 

I have said in this thread over and over and over again.... I do not want men to stop being attracted to women. Heck, I don't even want them to stop making positive comments about a girl's body. But I want the guys to find out FIRST if those advances are wanted. In other words, have a flirty conversation with a girl FIRST in which she gives you signs that she is romantically interested in you BEFORE you pull out the sexual comments/discussions of her body.

 

If you have not had even had a conversation with a girl where she has given you her name, keep your comments about her body to yourself.

 

Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp? Why do you guys keep turning it into a straw man of "well women do it!" or "stop trying to change men!" when I am NOT arguing EITHER of those things!

 

Ladies, help me out.... why is this message not getting through?

It already did

 

At this point, the conversation is redundant - the messaged has been well-received and noted.

[joystickd]

But we're not discussing street harassment. Veggirl isn't even on the street.... she's speaking about strangers at a gas station. At her work. AKA, not on the street.

 

I have said in this thread over and over and over again.... I do not want men to stop being attracted to women. Heck, I don't even want them to stop making positive comments about a girl's body. But I want the guys to find out FIRST if those advances are wanted. In other words, have a flirty conversation with a girl FIRST in which she gives you signs that she is romantically interested in you BEFORE you pull out the sexual comments/discussions of her body.

 

If you have not had even had a conversation with a girl where she has given you her name, keep your comments about her body to yourself.

 

Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp? Why do you guys keep turning it into a straw man of "well women do it!" or "stop trying to change men!" when I am NOT arguing EITHER of those things!

 

Ladies, help me out.... why is this message not getting through?

Its the truth women do it too and in some cases worse than men.

The social programming of women often leaves many men confused and frustrated - Los Angeles Men's Dating Advice | Examiner.com

^

check out the link there.

 

My question to you is: Would it bother you more if someone you seen that you were attracted to said it? Would it bother you if someone you seen as unattractive said it? I will say more than likely it bothers most women because the men that say it they don't think are attractive.

[ThaWholigan]

Its the truth women do it too and in some cases worse than men.

The social programming of women often leaves many men confused and frustrated - Los Angeles Men's Dating Advice | Examiner.com

^

check out the link there.

 

My question to you is: Would it bother you more if someone you seen that you were attracted to said it? Would it bother you if someone you seen as unattractive said it? I will say more than likely it bothers most women because the men that say it they don't think are attractive.

Consider that to a portion of women, the behavior would actually negate the objective physical attractiveness of the man in question.

 

It all goes back to "tact and decorum"

[verhrzn]

Its the truth women do it too and in some cases worse than men.

The social programming of women often leaves many men confused and frustrated - Los Angeles Men's Dating Advice | Examiner.com

^

check out the link there.

 

My question to you is: Would it bother you more if someone you seen that you were attracted to said it? Would it bother you if someone you seen as unattractive said it? I will say more than likely it bothers most women because the men that say it they don't think are attractive.

 

It would bother me if a stranger said it, period. Their looks have nothing to do with it. If someone hasn't even bothered to get my name, or have a decent conversation with me, but is making (negative or positive) comments on my body, I would think they were a rude a**hole and their comments inappropriate.

[joystickd]

Consider that to a portion of women, the behavior would actually negate the objective physical attractiveness of the man in question.

 

It all goes back to "tact and decorum"

Partially but attractiveness factors in too. I had my first sexual experience because I showed a coworker that barely knew me a pic of my penis. Now had she not thought I was attractive I would have been sexually harassing her. That is the thing if you look at some of these post the women talk about men they deem unattractive. There is a lot a man can do once a woman thinks he is attractive and she is very interested. They may not admit it but its the truth.

[joystickd]

It would bother me if a stranger said it, period. Their looks have nothing to do with it. If someone hasn't even bothered to get my name, or have a decent conversation with me, but is making (negative or positive) comments on my body, I would think they were a rude a**hole and their comments inappropriate.

so after you introduced yourselves and he went into that would it bother you then. Based on what you said here I think not.

[verhrzn]

Partially but attractiveness factors in too. I had my first sexual experience because I showed a coworker that barely knew me a pic of my penis. Now had she not thought I was attractive I would have been sexually harassing her. That is the thing if you look at some of these post the women talk about men they deem unattractive. There is a lot a man can do once a woman thinks he is attractive and she is very interested. They may not admit it but its the truth.

 

Or you could have shown it to a woman who DID think you were attractive, but considered that a huge breech of etiquette, and she wound up thinking you were unattractive. I don't care if Brad Pitt himself was sending me penis pictures, unless I was dating him, I'd think it was gross.

[Shaun-Dro]

When a lot of guys talk about dating, or anything to do with it, inevitably we tend to talk about the woman's physique. Not usually to be disparaging (some guys are, and quite vocal about it), but we generally gravitate towards that area.

 

Now, I do love a woman's body. I like looking at it, I like talking about it, I like feeling it. And I'm sure most guys here do too. I like all kind of bodies too, it's probably a good thing that no woman's body is the same. I can freely admit it with a smile .

 

But every now and then, there are dissenters that think we are somehow bad for talking about women's bodies. The problem that I have with this is that they assume that it is all we care about. I have actually gone at great lengths to talk about many other things that I am attracted to about women that do not include her body, as have quite a few guys I know both offline and online. But it seems it is not enough.

 

So what is the solution? Do we stop talking about or acknowledging a woman's body just to appease?

 

Sounds like a ridiculous question.

 

No! As a man that appreciates the female anatomy, you never go against natural biology to make women feel better. I never see them doing it.

[joystickd]

It would bother me if a stranger said it, period. Their looks have nothing to do with it. If someone hasn't even bothered to get my name, or have a decent conversation with me, but is making (negative or positive) comments on my body, I would think they were a rude a**hole and their comments inappropriate.

I suggest you check out that link too.

[verhrzn]

so after you introduced yourselves and he went into that would it bother you then. Based on what you said here I think not.

 

If we were having a conversation in which I showed interest in him. If I was merely asking him for directions to the grocery store, and he whipped out "Hmm your ass looks fine," his looks would have NOTHING to do with me thinking that was gross and a major boundary issue.

 

ThaWhalogian, you may think the conversation is over, but look what women have to deal with? That even when we directly say it bothers us, men DTILL argue that they have the right to comment on our bodies?

[joystickd]

Or you could have shown it to a woman who DID think you were attractive, but considered that a huge breech of etiquette, and she wound up thinking you were unattractive. I don't care if Brad Pitt himself was sending me penis pictures, unless I was dating him, I'd think it was gross.

Etiquette goes out the window when attraction and interest takes over. I have seen it happen to many times by women in different walks of life.

[verhrzn]

Etiquette goes out the window when attraction and interest takes over. I have seen it happen to many times by women in different walks of life.

 

So?? So some women like it.... big deal. That does not mean ALL women like it. You have testimony, right here, of women who don't like it. So you're going to harass women on the off chance they find it sexy? Gee, how attractive. I can't wonder why some women would object to that...

[ThaWholigan]

If we were having a conversation in which I showed interest in him. If I was merely asking him for directions to the grocery store, and he whipped out "Hmm your ass looks fine," his looks would have NOTHING to do with me thinking that was gross and a major boundary issue.

 

ThaWhalogian, you may think the conversation is over, but look what women have to deal with? That even when we directly say it bothers us, men DTILL argue that they have the right to comment on our bodies?

I guess it depends on the parameters laid out, and an accurate reading of the situation. Some men are terrible at it, I agree. And they do spoil it for the rest of us. The way I see it, I have only rarely been less than well received when I have commented on a girl's body. Either I have been lucky, or I have become adept enough to know when it is going to be well-received. I am not inappropriate about it, and as such, I respect boundaries.

 

I think the argument has become a semantic one, when I really wanted it to be quite straight-forward, but oh well. The argument now is that men will simply rather take the risk and offend some women, rather than reserve their comments and be respectful (and then later "ignored"). It's finding that medium, that fine line. I have found mine, so I'm happy regardless of the outcome.

 

It's all about the parameters, the tact, the moderation and the dynamic between the individuals in question I would say. And unfortunately a lot of men are tactless in this regard - it could easily have been me in that position even!