Men talking about women

[ThaWholigan]

Anyone care to give a summary of what just happened in the last 10 or so pages?

 

At first I thought that ThaWholigan had conceded about 20 pages back and then I thought Imajerk pretty much nailed it and everyone was friends again.

 

My read of it is that men like to talk about women's bodies. Some women said that they don't like that. And some guys conceded that they will try to be more respectful in the future. No?

 

The semantics of what exactly is respectful was being discussed. I simply think that it's a little excessively PC and as such, I think it's better not to talk about it, as it will inevitably still cause offense at some point.

 

I don't have a stake in the argument at this point, I have already decided simply not to talk about women's bodies on this forum at this point. But apparently, my stance of not doing so still doesn't fall into line, so I'm confused. I've been understanding enough to take on board that it's touchy, so I won't do it.

[january2011]

oaks - thanks

 

ThaWholigan - that seems reasonable to me

[ThaWholigan]

oaks - thanks

 

ThaWholigan - that seems reasonable to me

 

I agree - I've been more than reasonable I think. I've almost been criticized for things I haven't even done . I've learned the boundaries, I think they're a little too rigid so I'm not participating - better right? I'm not out to offend people, seems like a "safe" option - safe being something that is also used to beat me over the head with both offline and online previously.

 

But obviously, I'm not understanding or being respectful - by not talking about it? How odd.

[Taramere]

We're "f*ckers" and "bullies"? It's unlike you to call names like this, V.

 

I'm surprised too, V. Admittedly I haven't read more than the first and last few posts, but the posters engaging with you on this are generally pretty laid back and respectful people.

 

I sympathise with your views about men who yell stuff at women on the street. While I don't see that kind of behaviour as sexual assault, I certainly do see it as a form of bullying....especially where it's a lone woman being yelled at by a bunch of men.

 

I saw you post something about Reddit subforums. I've heard that Reddit subforums are a bit of a home for hate-filled trolls, so I can imagine that the items you read on those forums do not increase the quality of your day. Could your habit of reading misogynistic troll posts on other sites maybe be in danger of affecting your interactions with posters on this site?

[oaks]

I agree - I've been more than reasonable I think. I've almost been criticized for things I haven't even done . I've learned the boundaries, I think they're a little too rigid so I'm not participating - better right? I'm not out to offend people, seems like a "safe" option - safe being something that is also used to beat me over the head with both offline and online previously.

 

But obviously, I'm not understanding or being respectful - by not talking about it? How odd.

 

Your original question from the first post was "Do we stop talking about or acknowledging a woman's body just to appease?"

 

Did you find an answer?

[ThaWholigan]

Your original question from the first post was "Do we stop talking about or acknowledging a woman's body just to appease?"

 

Did you find an answer?

 

I believe I have - don't mention a woman's body unless given permission

[oaks]

I believe I have - don't mention a woman's body unless given permission

 

Damn shame. So what are we going to talk about now? Football, or beer?

[joystickd]

Damn shame. So what are we going to talk about now? Football, or beer?

 

I was going to talk about titties. Well rack is inappropriate.

[oaks]

I was going to talk about titties. Well rack is inappropriate.

 

If they are specific titties you still need permission from the owner before you tell us about them, I think.

[ThaWholigan]

If they are specific titties you still need permission from the owner before you tell us about them, I think.

Until then, a non-specific reference to the upper body region will suffice. Compliments may vary.

[joystickd]

If they are specific titties you still need permission from the owner before you tell us about them, I think.

 

General talk of titties.

[TheBigQuestion]

Words For Breasts

 

 

[Taramere]

Words For Breasts

 

 

 

Discriminatory, chauvinistic and typical of what I've come to expect on here. 153 words for breasts, yet the word "Bristols" is excluded on account of being British.

[joystickd]

Bristols. I will have to use that one. I like chichis too

[oaks]

Discriminatory, chauvinistic and typical of what I've come to expect on here. 153 words for breasts, yet the word "Bristols" is excluded on account of being British.

 

I haven't heard "Bristols" for a while. Will have to find ways to use this in daily conversation.

 

The woman I'm dating (well, trying to... but she's gone silent this weekend) doesn't know much British slang... maybe it's time to teach a little.

[joystickd]

inject some humor Dave Chappelle Whore's Uniform Clipta New Video Wave - YouTube

[Mme. Chaucer]

 

So my question is, what is the level of manners? Of decorum? Do we use respectful language, the kind of baseline we would use with strangers, or are we crass like we would be among friends?

 

 

Can't you just accept that lots of people behave in ways that you don't like, and learn how to let it roll off of your back instead of getting obsessive about how they need to change?

 

Just designate them as "jerks," if you wish, and ignore them. You can do it.

[Taramere]

I haven't heard "Bristols" for a while. Will have to find ways to use this in daily conversation.

 

The woman I'm dating (well, trying to... but she's gone silent this weekend) doesn't know much British slang... maybe it's time to teach a little.

 

I hope she isn't china-zoning you.

[Bristolius]

Bristols. I will have to use that one. I like chichis too

 

I'd rather you stick with chichis.

[verhrzn]

Can't you just accept that lots of people behave in ways that you don't like, and learn how to let it roll off of your back instead of getting obsessive about how they need to change?

 

Just designate them as "jerks," if you wish, and ignore them. You can do it.

 

It isn't just about me not "liking" it. I don't like people wearing Crocs, but I am not attempting to insist people not wear them.

 

it goes beyond my personal preference for "liking" a behavior into reinforcing a culture of sexual objectification and entitlement. The whole "ignore them" or "you can only control yourself" is only a few steps away from victim blaming. It's making ME responsible for someone ELSE'S bad behavior.

 

We are all of us controlled and regulated by the way we act. It's the social contract... the agreement we make by living among people that we will behave in certain ways. We won't talk in movie theaters. We won't hold private conversations loudly in public places. We won't pull out a gun and shoot someone who annoys us in traffic.

 

But for some reason, sexual and objectification is the one place where suddenly the responsibility is switched. Society no longer says that men should treat women's bodies in a respectful way.... If she gets cat-called, well she's putting off a sexual "vibe." If a man makes sexual advances towards her, well she was "asking for it" in some way. If she gets raped, well maybe she shouldn't have worn that skirt.

 

"Controlling" yourself breaks down when it comes to someone else's responses to you. Controlling yourself won't keep a woman from being sexually harassed. It won't keep a woman from being sexually objectified.

 

Furthermore, a woman can't always react to it because she might not know it's going on. For all I know, a stranger took my picture on the bus, and it's now floating around on a Reddit subforum where guys are laughing about how disgusting ugly I am. How I have no worth because my boobs are too small, etc. My body is being objectified and poked at and prodded at in a public way, verbally, without me even knowing about it. How could I have "controlled" the situation to stop that? Not appeared in public at all?

 

It isn't just "a few jerks" that need to be ignored. Because ignoring it does nothing to address the problem of entitlement. Men continue objectifying women's bodies in disrespectful, and at times violent, ways, and women continue bearing the brunt of the responsibility for it.

 

I hope for a better society.... one in which no one is physically objectified, one in which we talk about bodies in a respectful way, one in which men are held to a higher standard. Is this so wrong, to work for a positive change?

 

Furthermore, I hope for change on a personal level. It disgusts me and enraged me, when I go, hell, almost anywhere on the Internet, or in real life, and encounter this attitude. Did you watch my video? Or read the link I posted? How a woman can't even be at a Con without a guy taking her picture without permission? How a woman can't even read a book on the train without being harassed?

 

I am tired.... beyond tired.... of constantly being judged and treated like an object, like a product for male consumption. If superficial judgement and objectification is such a key corner of male sexuality, then I want nothing to do with men. I want them locked inside caves and used only for breeding, since that is how they seem to view me. I keep hoping this observation is correct, that men can control themselves, that men can treat women (the ugly like me to the porn-star gorgeous like Jane) with the respect offered to a fellow human being, the kind of respect where you don't carve them up and judge them because of the physical vessel they are in.

 

But then I come here, and read one of these threads, and after trying so hard to get men to understand, I just feel beaten and insulted all over again.

[joystickd]

I'd rather you stick with chichis.

 

I prefer funbags. I would be like damn look at those funbags

[verhrzn]

women complain complain complain about sexual objectification but when push goes to shove those are the men they sleep with.

 

Yes, because after they have gotten to know a guy, then the sexual objectification is no longer objectification but sexual attraction.

 

There is a difference between a stranger objectifying me, and my partner appreciating my sexuality. What is difficult about this concept?

 

Furthermore, for every woman who sleeps with a guy that tells her "nice ass" from across the street, there's one who is offended and would ignore him, and would instead sleep with the guy who started a respectful conversation with her at a bar. Stop assuming that because a small minority of women respond to it, ALL women will. WE ARE NOT ALL THE SAME.

[joystickd]

Yes, because after they have gotten to know a guy, then the sexual objectification is no longer objectification but sexual attraction.

 

There is a difference between a stranger objectifying me, and my partner appreciating my sexuality. What is difficult about this concept?

 

Furthermore, for every woman who sleeps with a guy that tells her "nice ass" from across the street, there's one who is offended and would ignore him, and would instead sleep with the guy who started a respectful conversation with her at a bar. Stop assuming that because a small minority of women respond to it, ALL women will. WE ARE NOT ALL THE SAME.

Women are not the same but men are in terms of what men want in women. How hypocritical

[ThaWholigan]

Yes, because after they have gotten to know a guy, then the sexual objectification is no longer objectification but sexual attraction.

 

There is a difference between a stranger objectifying me, and my partner appreciating my sexuality. What is difficult about this concept?

 

Furthermore, for every woman who sleeps with a guy that tells her "nice ass" from across the street, there's one who is offended and would ignore him, and would instead sleep with the guy who started a respectful conversation with her at a bar. Stop assuming that because a small minority of women respond to it, ALL women will. WE ARE NOT ALL THE SAME.

Report and ignore Verhzrn.

[Taramere]

But then I come here, and read one of these threads, and after trying so hard to get men to understand, I just feel beaten and insulted all over again.

 

Men, en masse, in an all-male environment that is so determinedly misogynistic that any man departing from that mindset risks exclusion, can be dicks. You'll get no argument from me there. The fact that they're part of a misogynistic pack in the first place, suggests that they're natural herd animals who won't challenge the misogynistic mindset, even if they want to. To be fair, it's probably wise for them not to challenge it, because there's not going to be any reward for them in doing so. People going against the prevailing belief of the mob do not get rewarded for it. That's the rule.

 

So what would a decent guy do? He would probably just not frequent these Reddit subforums. In fact, from the way you describe them that isn't just the decent thing to do....it's the healthy thing to do. From what you describe, the guys on those forums behave in much the same way that the disturbed adolescents I worked with in my twenties behaved. Did they objectify women? Absolutely. Did it get worse when they were going through one of their porn phases (ie times when they'd get hold of porn magazines and leave pictures around the home)? Yes.

 

I remember getting my hair cut to just below jaw length...and I could not convince the other staff members that I hadn't had it all cut off so that my young charges would see me in a less "porn" way, and to be honest, things did improve a bit at work once I got it all cut off. Working in that environment was probably a bit like living in a Reddit subforum thread (we had to do sleepover shifts).

 

But you know...these were among the worst of the worst. A good lot of them will be in prison now....and to judge people generally by the behaviour of the worst isn't fair. To demand normal guys to face up to these mobs (comprised mainly of the easily led, headed up by a few borderline psychopaths) and tell them to stop being so misogynistic is asking too much. At best they'll be shouted down, and at worst the baying mob will turn on them.

 

What happens in reality is that these characters tend to be excluded from society. They might manage to be the big shot in whatever swamp they inhabit, but it's a swamp that anybody with anything about them will be wanting to escape from. You can't stop them from posting in Reddit subforums (whatever the hell those are...and actually please, I'd rather not see them...). What you can do is recognise those forums for the sh*te infested swamps they are, and stay away from them.