Men talking about women

[ThaWholigan]

Men, en masse, in an all-male environment that is so determinedly misogynistic that any man departing from that mindset risks exclusion, can be dicks. You'll get no argument from me there. The fact that they're part of a misogynistic pack in the first place, suggests that they're natural herd animals who won't challenge the misogynistic mindset, even if they want to. To be fair, it's probably wise for them not to challenge it, because there's not going to be any reward for them in doing so. People going against the prevailing belief of the mob do not get rewarded for it. That's the rule.

 

That's a bit of an exaggeration - we're not all animals . However, to an extent it is like this. I would argue that a lot of women perpetuate this, because the guys who break from the mindset are sometimes a casualty amongst both men and women. I won't argue that some of the "nice" ones are secretly the same as the misogynists, but sometimes the ones who really are the respectful ones, are the ones who fail.

 

 

 

But you know...these were among the worst of the worst. A good lot of them will be in prison now....and to judge people generally by the behaviour of the worst isn't fair. To demand normal guys to face up to these mobs (comprised mainly of the easily led, headed up by a few borderline psychopaths) and tell them to stop being so misogynistic is asking too much. At best they'll be shouted down, and at worst the baying mob will turn on them.

 

We can only change ourselves really. How I operate is a far cry from a lot of the men described in this thread - as are a number of men I know.

 

What happens in reality is that these characters tend to be excluded from society. They might manage to be the big shot in whatever swamp they inhabit, but it's a swamp that anybody with anything about them will be wanting to escape from. You can't stop them from posting in Reddit subforums (whatever the hell those are...and actually please, I'd rather not see them...). What you can do is recognise those forums for the sh*te infested swamps they are, and stay away from them.

 

Agree. The freedom of the internet has it's drawbacks and this is one of them. It's the reason I left sites like Loveshy and stopped reading certain forums - because I didn't identify with them and neither do most men on the internet. Grouping us in with them is a bit wrong IMO - especially considering we have actually been very respectful of the argument put forth. It didn't warrant being called a bully at all.

[Mme. Chaucer]

 

But for some reason, sexual and objectification is the one place where suddenly the responsibility is switched. Society no longer says that men should treat women's bodies in a respectful way.... If she gets cat-called, well she's putting off a sexual "vibe." If a man makes sexual advances towards her, well she was "asking for it" in some way. If she gets raped, well maybe she shouldn't have worn that skirt.

 

People who think that way certainly do exist, and they are beneath my notice and contempt … except for here on LoveShack, where I choose to fight with them from time to time, or once in a while in real life, where I speak to them about it.

 

Controlling yourself won't keep a woman from being sexually harassed. It won't keep a woman from being sexually objectified.

 

I choose my battles carefully.

 

For all I know, a stranger took my picture on the bus, and it's now floating around on a Reddit subforum where guys are laughing about how disgusting ugly I am.

 

Ha, that reminds me of a story from my past - I used to be a dancer. I was driving around with my portfolio and some costume stuff in my car a lot, and one morning I went downstairs to see that my car had been broken into and stolen! A bunch of my personal stuff was strewn all over the San Francisco street. I tried to collect it all.

 

Some months later, I was in a bar … and there was a nice 8 X 10 photo of me in a BELLY DANCING costume framed and hanging behind the bar!!!

 

 

It isn't just "a few jerks" that need to be ignored. Because ignoring it does nothing to address the problem of entitlement. Men continue objectifying women's bodies in disrespectful, and at times violent, ways, and women continue bearing the brunt of the responsibility for it.

 

Then become an activist and work towards raising consciousness. Trying to convince people they are "wrong" is not going to help anything and will probably feed the divide.

 

I hope for a better society.... one in which no one is physically objectified, one in which we talk about bodies in a respectful way, one in which men are held to a higher standard. Is this so wrong, to work for a positive change?

 

No, it's not wrong. But your tone and your approach do not come off as "working towards positive change." There is too much that smacks of shaming. If male sexuality is such that they appreciate and respond sexually to the SIGHT of what they consider to be feminine beauty, are they supposed to change / repress that completely because it reduces the OBJECT of their admiration to an … object?

 

Do you think that their inherent sexuality should be overturned to make you feel better?

 

I am pretty sure that the more "conscious" among guys here on LoveShack do realize that every single female person is a sentient human being just like the men are … and still can simultaneously appreciate her boobs. And might feel okay about saying so. It does not have to be inherently 'bad'.

 

Did you watch my video? Or read the link I posted? How a woman can't even be at a Con without a guy taking her picture without permission? How a woman can't even read a book on the train without being harassed?

 

Believe me, I don't have to watch a video or read a link. I lived it. I'm old and it's still in my life.

 

I am against "hate speech" and think it should be stepped on until it's dead, but I cannot equate that with unwanted boob comments, no matter how much I dislike them.

 

I am tired.... beyond tired.... of constantly being judged and treated like an object, like a product for male consumption. If superficial judgement and objectification is such a key corner of male sexuality, then I want nothing to do with men.

 

Well, I call bs on that. You are one of the most vocal posters EVER about how you 100% buy in to "beauty myths" and that is not the fault of any men. That is your personal choice.

 

I want them locked inside caves and used only for breeding, since that is how they seem to view me. I keep hoping this observation is correct, that men can control themselves, that men can treat women (the ugly like me to the porn-star gorgeous like Jane) with the respect offered to a fellow human being, the kind of respect where you don't carve them up and judge them because of the physical vessel they are in.

 

As I said before, a great many guys can simultaneously contain "nice boobs" and a deep intellectual appreciation - or conversely, a personal dislike - while dealing with a woman.

[Taramere]

That's a bit of an exaggeration - we're not all animals . However, to an extent it is like this. I would argue that a lot of women perpetuate this, because the guys who break from the mindset are sometimes a casualty amongst both men and women. I won't argue that some of the "nice" ones are secretly the same as the misogynists, but sometimes the ones who really are the respectful ones, are the ones who fail.

 

I know, but I think what I'm saying is that there are guys who will make a concerted effort to stay out of certain environments where they know sh*tty behaviour will take place. However, it's not always as easy as that. If a man works in a place where there's strong pressure to participate. The City of London comes to mind....and so does the main industry in my area, which involves a lot of "entertainment" aided by escorts.

 

We can only change ourselves really. How I operate is a far cry from a lot of the men described in this thread - as are a number of men I know.

 

I think that you, and quite a few others on here, are admirably self contained. I've encountered men like that in real life too, who would be able to withstand the pressure.

 

 

Agree. The freedom of the internet has it's drawbacks and this is one of them. It's the reason I left sites like Loveshy and stopped reading certain forums - because I didn't identify with them and neither do most men on the internet. Grouping us in with them is a bit wrong IMO - especially considering we have actually been very respectful of the argument put forth. It didn't warrant being called a bully at all.

 

I'm not grouping you with them at all. I've been very clear that I see the majority of men on here as being fairly laid back and respectful people. I haven't looked at the Reddit subforums I don't think, but now and again I've encountered hatefully misogynistic stuff on the internet. I never hang around looking at it for long, because it's akin to watching in fascination as a stranger vomits or defecates.

 

I do suspect that V spends too much time looking at sites like that and absorbing the negative messages. On the other hand, as you say these are the drawbacks of the internet. People's privacy and dignity is increasingly being invaded in unacceptable ways. I can understand why a woman who works in IT, as V does, finds it an immense source of stress and upset.

 

One of my pet hates is the posting on youtube of videos taken on public transport - where a crazy, drunk or just trollish person is picking on another passenger in the hopes of a viral video resulting. I would like to see people getting fines for that sort of online bullying behaviour. Fines that resulted in their victims being compensated. I think the problem is that the internet gathered momentum and the law couldn't keep up. Over the coming years I think we will see more and more legislation relating to people's behaviour on the internet and powers that simplify the process of ordering websites to release info that helps identify users.

 

At the moment, though, we're still at the point where the internet has gone crazy with the result that trolls and hacker-types misbehave (and in some cases commit criminal offences over the internet) with relative impunity.

Edited September 23, 2012 by Taramere

[Woggle]

Nobody here is saying it is okay to rape women or take pictures up their skirts without permission. Those are clearly not okay but when men see an attractive woman we acknowledge that fact in our head. Everybody does it with attractive people all around.

 

Also when you get a group that is mostly one gender or one anything you start to get a hive mentality. Women can be just as bad. I have actually heard women say they felt like an outcast because they were the only one amongst their friends who didn't seem to hate their husbands. Are you telling me that women don't common bash men in all female company?

[ThaWholigan]

No, it's not wrong. But your tone and your approach do not come off as "working towards positive change." There is too much that smacks of shaming. If male sexuality is such that they appreciate and respond sexually to the SIGHT of what they consider to be feminine beauty, are they supposed to change / repress that completely because it reduces the OBJECT of their admiration to an … object?

 

Do you think that their inherent sexuality should be overturned to make you feel better?

 

I am pretty sure that the more "conscious" among guys here on LoveShack do realize that every single female person is a sentient human being just like the men are … and still can simultaneously appreciate her boobs. And might feel okay about saying so. It does not have to be inherently 'bad'.

 

As I said before, a great many guys can simultaneously contain "nice boobs" and a deep intellectual appreciation - or conversely, a personal dislike - while dealing with a woman.

 

This was perhaps my entire motivation regarding this thread, and it was summed up perfectly. Verhrzn actually made a great point about individual sexuality and the nuances between each person within a gender that I agreed with. But generally, outside of those who resonate on a more demisexual level, it is not uncommon to find that a lot of men have a noticeable sexual attraction that is very strong towards women. I make no secret of the fact that I am a very physically orientated person. I'm not attracted to exactly the same things as everybody else, but I greatly admire physique (on an athletic level with both genders, and on a sexual/expressive level with women).

 

Verbally expressing that as best I can (without vulgarity or offense) is something I like to do. And I go to great pains to maintain that it is not the only thing I admire nor do I dismiss other more notable attributes about women. It is sad that I constantly have to do so just to justify my verbal expression, but as long as it keeps the peace.

[MrCastle]

Nobody here is saying it is okay to rape women or take pictures up their skirts without permission. Those are clearly not okay but when men see an attractive woman we acknowledge that fact in our head. Everybody does it with attractive people all around.

 

Also when you get a group that is mostly one gender or one anything you start to get a hive mentality. Women can be just as bad. I have actually heard women say they felt like an outcast because they were the only one amongst their friends who didn't seem to hate their husbands. Are you telling me that women don't common bash men in all female company?

 

Agreed. This thread has taken a turn to the extreme. I'm not sure that was the initial focus of the thread.

 

Men have always commented on the female body, and always will. I'm not talking about the pervy guys who yell out obscenities at women walking down the street, but when I'm dating a girl I have no qualms about saying things like "you have a great ass" or "your legs are killer". I don't just blurt it out anytime I want, but when I see a window of opportunity, I will most definitely tell her what I like about her body, even commenting on stuff I may not even like, like her boobs (I'm not into boobs) just to make her feel good. Like I said in my initial post; it was always met with a positive response. Then again, the girl is into me and is probably comfortable with me saying those things. It's not like we're strangers on the street and I yelled out "hey baby! great ass!"

 

I'm very visual, very vocal, and very upfront. I have no problem speaking my mind to a woman. What I like, what I don't like. I'm very transparent when it comes to my relationships.

[mesmerized]

I think V is onto something actually. The comments are sometimes unnecessary, rude and cruel, specially when they're negative comments. I think saying this is just how men are is kind of dumb. What men SAY can certainly be controlled even though what they think may not. Time for men to take some responsibility for their actions.

 

Personally, I've gotten many more positive comments than negative and generally I don't mind them and often enjoy them, even if they come from a stranger on the street as long as it's not distasteful. One thing though, I don't like when people I'm not close with make comments about my chest. I know I have one that catches attention, I know they are thinking or talking about it, I can see it in their eyes . But hearing from a stranger about my "tits" or whatever other name you want to give it does nothing for me and might even make me feel bad.

[Woggle]

Most men don't talk negative about women offline unless we are in an all male enviroment.

[ThaWholigan]

I think V is onto something actually. The comments are sometimes unnecessary, rude and cruel, specially when they're negative comments. I think saying this is just how men are is kind of dumb. What men SAY can certainly be controlled even though what they think may not. Time for men to take some responsibility for their actions.

 

Personally, I've gotten many more positive comments than negative and generally I don't mind them and often enjoy them, even if they come from a stranger on the street as long as it's not distasteful. One thing though, I don't like when people I'm not close with make comments about my chest. I know I have one that catches attention, I know they are thinking or talking about it, I can see it in their eyes . But hearing from a stranger about my "tits" or whatever other name you want to give it does nothing for me and might even make me feel bad.

 

I don't think anything V is saying is disputed, not should it be really. It's a perfectly valid, albeit doggedly expressed, opinion. I think there are quite a few men who either take it too far, or simply do not have enough respect to show some moderation in their expression.

 

The trouble is, when even an innocuous or positively expressed remark about a woman, physically speaking and in a candidly appropriate manner depending on the scenario, is grouped in with the bad behavior and described as objectification, it strikes me as a little excessive. It then becomes the back-and-forth of what is acceptable and what isn't. And then it becomes about when to express that. I don't tend to go into detail about strange women unless in a private environment, or I'm telling a story.

 

I think most women don't want to hear strange men talking about their breasts to be honest in public viewing. Which is why it often amuses me when some women deliberately and verbally draw attention to them all on their own for men to fawn over. I think that's a scenario where I definitely try to keep a sense of self-control just for the lulz, among other scenarios.

[oaks]

unwanted boob

 

 

A very sad concept indeed!

 

 

(Seriously, great post!)

[mesmerized]

One advice to you men though, when in bed, talk about her body as much you like. I love when guys compliment me in bed, I do that to them too.

[oaks]

One of my pet hates is the posting on youtube of videos taken on public transport - where a crazy, drunk or just trollish person is picking on another passenger in the hopes of a viral video resulting.

 

I was on a late evening train recently... not really very late, maybe 10.30pm... and there was a very drunk person who was helped onto the train by a member of station staff. Some time later the passenger was violently ill in the obvious manner (prompting an exodus of passengers from that section of the carriage). Some time later a couple of young women, dressed for an evening out in a nightclub or similar, were walking though the train and stopped to express disgust that they might "get it on their shoes" although they did find time to stop and take photos (or perhaps video, I didn't ask) of the drunken passenger.

[ThaWholigan]

I was on a late evening train recently... not really very late, maybe 10.30pm... and there was a very drunk person who was helped onto the train by a member of station staff. Some time later the passenger was violently ill in the obvious manner (prompting an exodus of passengers from that section of the carriage). Some time later a couple of young women, dressed for an evening out in a nightclub or similar, were walking though the train and stopped to express disgust that they might "get it on their shoes" although they did find time to stop and take photos (or perhaps video, I didn't ask) of the drunken passenger.

Sounds grim. I have worse stories though. Remember I came from the Happy Slap generation. I saw a girl get mauled by 2 other girls, and nobody stopped it, nobody called police or ambulance - just stood around filming it on their Nokias before it ended up on the internet. This was pre-Youtube though. I also remember when guys used to be force to kiss other guys on film, or strip naked and do star jumps in the streets......

 

One advice to you men though, when in bed, talk about her body as much you like. I love when guys compliment me in bed, I do that to them too.

 

Heh, don't need to tell me .

 

I was going to say something more risque, but I won't

[Woggle]

I could tell you so many stories about my younger days in New York before it became cleaned up the way it is now. I saw so much stuff on the subway.

[Crusoe]

I think V is onto something actually.

 

So do I.

 

I spend most of my life in all male enviroments and behavior that was once an execption is now becoming the norm, especially amongst the younger fella's. It's becoming socially acceptable for them to act that way and it will remain socially acceptable until other men stand up and speak out as they used to. There has was always been silly giggling and a fascination of the female body by young, immature boys, but what goes on now would have copped you a dry slap by other fella's back then.

[ThaWholigan]

So do I.

 

I spend most of my life in all male enviroments and behavior that was once an execption is now becoming the norm, especially amongst the younger fella's. It's becoming socially acceptable for them to act that way and it will remain socially acceptable until other men stand up and speak out as they used to. There has was always been silly giggling and a fascination of the female body by young, immature boys, but what goes on now would have copped you a dry slap by other fella's back then.

I'm fortunate enough that regarding men talking about women's bodies either to them or amongst themselves, OTT behavior hasn't been as prevalent. I do remember having to say sometimes not to do it.

 

I recall being in school, and a good friend of mine was particularly tactless in asking a girl from another school on the bus if she gave fellatio and that he heard that she gives it. It was awkward, (she was NOT happy) and I actually told him he shouldn't say that so loudly on the bus and embarrass himself and the girl, and it was quite rude. What followed was me being insulted by him, my little brother AND the girl . To this day, he still ribs me about it.

 

There are a couple more incidents like that, one where a friend on the bus was talking about pushing a girls face onto the wall while he was f*cking her, and mentioning her by name too - I pointed out that if a guy had did that to his younger sister and talked about it on the bus in front of everyone he wouldn't be pleased. He has since learned to be a little moderate around me.

 

These are isolated incidents in my experience, and it usually comes from a lack of decorum and understanding that there's being complimentary, and then there's inappropriate and vulgar. Fortunately the bulk of my friends bar a few are the same.

Edited September 23, 2012 by ThaWholigan

[mesmerized]

I'm fortunate enough that regarding men talking about women's bodies either to them or amongst themselves hasn't been as prevalent. I do remember having to say sometimes not to do it.

 

I recall being in school, and a good friend of mine was particularly tactless in asking a girl from another school on the bus if she gave fellatio and that he heard that she gives it. It was awkward, (she was NOT happy) and I actually told him he shouldn't say that so loudly on the bus and embarrass himself and the girl, and it was quite rude. What followed was me being insulted by him, my little brother AND the girl . To this day, he still ribs me about it.

 

There are a couple more incidents like that, one where a friend on the bus was talking about pushing a girls face onto the wall while he was f*cking her, and mentioning her by name too - I pointed out that if a guy had did that to his younger sister and talked about it on the bus in front of everyone he wouldn't be pleased. He has since learned to be a little moderate around me.

 

These are isolated incidents in my experience, and it usually comes from a lack of decorum and understanding that there's being complimentary, and then there's inappropriate and vulgar. Fortunately the bulk of my friends bar a few are the same.

 

I think these kind of things are specially common among younger men. Talking publicly about the details of sex is not as interesting to men and women anymore as they age and experience more.

[A O]

Men, en masse, in an all-male environment that is so determinedly misogynistic that any man departing from that mindset risks exclusion, can be dicks. You'll get no argument from me there. The fact that they're part of a misogynistic pack in the first place, suggests that they're natural herd animals who won't challenge the misogynistic mindset, even if they want to. To be fair, it's probably wise for them not to challenge it, because there's not going to be any reward for them in doing so. People going against the prevailing belief of the mob do not get rewarded for it. That's the rule.

Yes, the rule is that both men and women are sheep – herd-like the lot of us. Takes a strong person to swim against the tide but most people, in any setting you care to name, prefer to follow the pack.

 

But you know...these were among the worst of the worst. A good lot of them will be in prison now....and to judge people generally by the behaviour of the worst isn't fair. To demand normal guys to face up to these mobs (comprised mainly of the easily led, headed up by a few borderline psychopaths) and tell them to stop being so misogynistic is asking too much. At best they'll be shouted down, and at worst the baying mob will turn on them.

Lets tweak this loving tribute to men a bit. There are bad apples out there. Boy, don’t we all know that – lots of bad, bad, bad men. But, but, but, many people know (certainly many men know anyway) that there are far more good men out there than bad. You wouldn’t get that from the above though. The above paints a picture of a minority of decent men cowling from a mob of bad guys and a bigger mob of bad guy supporters. What a way to view a whole gender.

 

Without doubt there are many men who behave crassly in the face of beauty, matter of fact I’d say most men have behaved crassly at one point in time. But, for every crass moment there are a significantly greater number of moments where behavior is neutral (respectful) in the face of the same trigger. It’s the great big silence that naturally, few people ever tend to notice. It’s always the crap, the one in ten (at least) moment that people tend to notice but the simple truth of all this is that it’s the other side, the big silent side that prevails here.

 

The bottom line is that men aren’t as bad as the vibe I’m getting here now and that arguably, labelling a certain body part in a negative manner isn’t any where near as bad a painting a whole gender in a negative light.

[ThaWholigan]

I think these kind of things are specially common among younger men. Talking publicly about the details of sex is not as interesting to men and women anymore as they age and experience more.

Yeah, they get carried away with the adulation from their friends and the braggadocio. It's worth it to remind them politely that they should try and be more reserved - I find they actually respond quite well, unless they have a propensity for ignorance, at which point you're asking for trouble.

 

I have seen incidents though where guys have very nicely mentioned to a woman while passing "You look nice today" and nothing more, only to be greeted with a dirty look or even a "Don't chat to me". That's probably more common in my experience than the leery guys I hear so much about. The majority of the guys who talked that way on the bus about the girls, were actually very different around girls actually. There was more reservedness, more moderation, and actual consideration. Some of them were even the complete opposite to how they portrayed themselves.

[Taramere]

Lets tweak this loving tribute to men a bit. There are bad apples out there. Boy, don’t we all know that – lots of bad, bad, bad men. But, but, but, many people know (certainly many men know anyway) that there are far more good men out there than bad. You wouldn’t get that from the above though. The above paints a picture of a minority of decent men cowling from a mob of bad guys and a bigger mob of bad guy supporters. What a way to view a whole gender.

 

Not to be awkward in presenting any obstacles that might slow you up in your enthusiastic dash to (once again) leap on one of my posts for evidence of man-hating...but it does seem as though you missed the word "normal" in my description. You may have a vastly different notion to me as to what normal means, but for me it would be the average guy in the street.

Edited September 23, 2012 by Taramere

[A O]

^ ^ ^

My aforementioned decent guy is actually just a normal guy to me. More importantly, in your representation of men they are greatly outnumbered by the bad guys. Its the opposite that's true in my book, decent men outnumber the bad guys. Also, men are no more herd-like than women. We are all pack-like creatures. Swimming against the tide is hard for anyone, its not something that only men have to do or that men find incredibly hard to do.

[Quiet Storm]

I think most normal men learn when and where its appropriate to talk about women's bodies. The average man will just look and keeps his comments to himself. The men that do vocalize it rudely are immature, have character issues or are personality disordered, or were raised in a culture or household where it was considered acceptable behavior. Its just difficult to understand why some women take that behavior so personally. If some lowlife idiot that I'll probably never see again comments on me, why waste my thoughts on him? If people are talking in a movie theater, I'll label them as rude and ask them to shut up, but I wouldn't dwell on it. Feeling offended is an inevitable part of life, but suffering over it is a choice.

[Lonely Ronin]

Its just difficult to understand why some women take that behavior so personally.

 

It's not just a woman problem in my opinion, It's a general problem in society now. Every one is overly sensitive about everything. Worse yet, it's societies fault. It was something that I noticed around middle school (early 90's), Schools started banning gym activities that had very clear winners and loosers. In my area it was dodge ball, and the jump rope competition. The reason given is because people didn't want some children to feel less accomplished than other children. Heck, my high school gave out varsity letters like it was water for the same reason.

 

Now we have entire generations of young people running around with what some have called the precious snowflake mentality. They are self absorbed and think they are god's gift to society, because they haven't learned their true place in society yet. Instead of learning it a young age when they had parents and teachers to help them come to grips with certain realizations, they are now doing it on their own in their 20's in college or when they enter the work force. What older generations would have consider a minor set back completely crushes them.

 

Back to the topic of this thread, barring the illegal and disturbing stuff brought up earlier, people need your judged every day, and not just by your sexually appealing body parts. You're judged by where you live, your job tittle, what type of car you drive, what you eat, what clothes you wear, who your friends are, and yes by you physical appearance. Either grow thicker skin, or learn to stick up for yourself. Further more, both sees do it, and pretty damn equally from what i can tell.

 

I was at a football game today, and heard groups of both men and women do it. I heard stuff like "whats she doing with him, I could take him no problem", "omg he is so dirty looking", "what is she thinking wearing that, even I can't pull off wearing that dress", "look at her ....."

[verhrzn]

But what if the woman is unable to stick up for herself? What if doing so would put her in a potentially dangerous situation, or when she doesn't even know it's occurring?

 

The women in a lot of those upskirt photos... have no idea their picture is being taken. That girl on the train was just trying to read her book, and suddenly a guy is screaming at her and threatening her, just because she wouldn't talk to him. Some guy takes a picture of a girl at a con, without permission, and just disappears into the crowd. Some man degrades my appearance on a message board to general applause (because FAT WOMEN, amirite?)

 

You are somewhat right about the snowflake mentality, but how is thinking you have the "right" to judge strangers out loud NOT a strong example of entitlement? Where do people get off, thinking they deserve to express their opinion about someone else's body, or job, or what have you? Is that not also the "special snowflake" mentality.... that your opinions are just SO important, they should get to be expressed regardless of impact and context?

 

And you are missing, yet again, the connection between the objectification/judgement of someone else's body, and how it contributes to those violent actions you just hand-waved away. By voicing your opinion about a stranger's body, you are reducing them down to their body parts.... they are not a person (because you don't know them, so how can you react to them as a person?), they are an object, being evaluated and judged.

 

If someone is just an object, a product, it's only a further step towards TREATING them like an object. After all, if you get to voice your opinion about someone else's body, why shouldn't you get to, say, take pictures of someone else's body? It doesn't hurt them, it might damage their Little Baby Feelings, but oh well, they should grow a thicker skin...

 

It's just a slippery slope of demanding someone grow a thicker skin so someone else can continue their bad behavior. Again, why should women HAVE to ignore/confront men when they make those comments? Why is it on women's shoulders to police someone else's behavior? (And ignoring it is, in a way, policing it; in essence, when you ignore something, you signal that there are no consequences to continuing that behavior.) Why shouldn't men themselves be responsible for THEIR behavior??

[Lonely Ronin]

But what if the woman is unable to stick up for herself? What if doing so would put her in a potentially dangerous situation, or when she doesn't even know it's occurring?

 

Life isn't risk free, some times it's going to screw you no matter who you are. I have just a good a chance of being mugged tomorrow as you do. With that being said in general people could be better prepared and aware of their surrounding. Mace, pepper spay, tazer, junk punch, kick in the balls, eye gouge are all proven self defense methods for women. You probably have a good chance at defending yourself as well, because the type of guy who is going to assault you sees you as a victim, and isn't expecting you to fight back.

 

 

 

 

The women in a lot of those upskirt photos... have no idea their picture is being taken. That girl on the train was just trying to read her book, and suddenly a guy is screaming at her and threatening her, just because she wouldn't talk to him. Some guy takes a picture of a girl at a con, without permission, and just disappears into the crowd. Some man degrades my appearance on a message board to general applause (because FAT WOMEN, amirite?)

Again, some things can't be prevented. It's no different then getting your purse or wallet swiped on the train. You got taken advantage of period.

 

 

 

You are somewhat right about the snowflake mentality, but how is thinking you have the "right" to judge strangers out loud NOT a strong example of entitlement? Where do people get off, thinking they deserve to express their opinion about someone else's body, or job, or what have you? Is that not also the "special snowflake" mentality.... that your opinions are just SO important, they should get to be expressed regardless of impact and context?

It is the same, what do you propose we do about it? Shall we mentally cleanse ever every human being, so no one ever gets their feelings hurt?

 

 

And you are missing, yet again, the connection between the objectification/judgement of someone else's body, and how it contributes to those violent actions you just hand-waved away.

No I haven't missed it, I had been ignoring your opinion because I personally find it insulting. Since you are calling me on it, I feel fine telling you I find it illogical, flawed, and generally disturbing. By your logic, anyone who ever punched or slapped someone is going to be a serial killer some day. I mean it's only a few steps up the ladder. A mental thought or vocalization does not directly lead to an action.

 

 

By voicing your opinion about a stranger's body, you are reducing them down to their body parts....

they are not a person (because you don't know them, so how can you react to them as a person?), they are an object, being evaluated and judged.

Personally I'm not an ameba, I'm a human being and last time I checked that meant I had higher reasoning skills than any other species on the planet. Examining a segment of a persons personality is no different. A person is more than the sum of their parts, but usually you need to examine some parts individually to understand the entire person, and decide if they are right for you. This is why most people end up having several relationships. They see parts of a person that they like and find other parts they don't like later.

 

 

If someone is just an object, a product, it's only a further step towards TREATING them like an object. After all, if you get to voice your opinion about someone else's body, why shouldn't you get to, say, take pictures of someone else's body? It doesn't hurt them, it might damage their Little Baby Feelings, but oh well, they should grow a thicker skin...

Again, higher reasoning skills

 

It is legal to take someones picture on the street, what isn't legal is taking pornographic photos, because society decided so.

 

why should women HAVE to ignore/confront men when they make those comments? Why is it on women's shoulders to police someone else's behavior? (And ignoring it is, in a way, policing it; in essence, when you ignore something, you signal that there are no consequences to continuing that behavior.) Why shouldn't men themselves be responsible for THEIR behavior??

Again I think you have flawed logic. It always on the the victim to prevent/ignore/or address what they think is a violation. Laws and social norms are not preventative measures, they are deterrents at best. That's why people lock their doors at night. Everyone knows theft is illegal but it still happens.

 

In the real world bad stuff happens, even to well prepared people who don't deserve it.