Men talking about women

[verhrzn]

V, I understand that you are passionate about reforming a culture that encourages trivialization of rape and blame of victims, because, you're right, it's not a thing to be trifled with and the victims are most certainly not to blame. But if you want to link rape to 'talking and thinking about other people's bodies' with complete causation, you would need much, much better sources than 'stfurapeculture', which I'd think would be innately biased.

 

Causes of sexual violence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia has a good compilation of reports and studies about potential causes and factors that predispose someone to committing sexual violence. The long and short about it is, there isn't simple causation. It really isn't as straightforward as a rapist only being 'someone who objectifies others'. That could be one of the many factors, yes, but that is like saying that 'eating' could cause cancer. The people who are the most obnoxious about other people's bodies are most often not rapists, and rapists are not always obnoxious about other people's bodies. The psyche of a rapist goes way deeper and more convoluted than that, in many cases.

 

I have NEVER said "thinking." How many times do I have to clarify that??

 

And I am also not claiming that all men who objectify are rapists. But I am saying that allowing objectification of a stranger's body encourages a culture that trivializes rape. It isn't so much about an individual... it's about a society that says a woman had it coming, or that a woman should have "defended" herself or was putting off "sexual" vibes. It all ties together into a society that objectifies women on one hand, and then makes them entirely responsible for someone else's behavior on the other.

 

I have said over and over that men are free to objectify women in their heads, or when a woman has shown she is receptive to their advances. All I ask is that except in those situations, people keep their comments about other people's bodies to themselves. Why are people arguing against this?? Why is such common courtesy being fought against?

[verhrzn]

I'm sorry, I find it a little strange that me talking about a woman's body leads to raping them - as if most men do not have the cognitive function to apply restraint to varying degrees. Are you suggesting that the men in this thread are potential objectifying rapists? Are you also suggesting because we like women's bodies, we don't see them as people?

 

I think that some of the things you have said in this thread have been more offensive than any comment I've ever made about a woman, or indeed the comment about the "rack" that started this thread.

 

Also - given that we are not talking about outright offending women, but talking about her body at least in an appropriate manner or an attempt to do so - is it really warranting being called "bullies" and objectifying "a**holes"?

 

NO. I am NOT saying the men in this thread are potential rapists. What I am saying is that by saying "well men should get to comment on stranger's bodies," we are contributing to a culture that doesn't require men to control themselves. If men are capable of controlling their behavior (not raping women), why is it not possible to control your speech as well?

 

Objectifying someone is not seeing them as a person. Period. Thats why it's called "objectification." Encouraging objectification, without that person's consent, means that you are treating them like an object, regardless of their feelings about it. When this sort of behavior is excused and even encouraged, is it any wonder that SOME men take it to a more extreme, and say "Well why can't I have her body? Her feelings don't matter."

Edited September 24, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[verhrzn]

They argue with you because you are wrong and offensive. Elswyth's last comment is a very good one actually, I 100% agree with her.

 

And why is it wrong and offensive to ask people to control their speech and behavior in public?

[ThaWholigan]

The premise of your argument isn't being fought against - except your assertion that men talking about women's bodies leads to raping them, which is odd.

 

Perhaps the discussion needs to go somewhere else:

 

I.E. Consent. When is a woman actually giving you consent to talk about her body? In my experience, if a woman HAS to give you consent to talk about her body, chances are she probably won't be attracted to you in the end. A woman isn't going to be like Alisha in Misfits and say "Check out my tits if you want". Because a scenario like that is usually the only surefire way you would be able to do so. If we went by a woman "showing she is receptive to our advances", we would never say anything remotely physical to a woman because half of us would never even know. I may have become a somewhat accurate reader of body language, but even that can lead to miscommunication and still ends up causing offense.

 

There is no way to escape offense being caused. And apologizing for it profusely just makes you look worse in a woman's eyes - it makes you look like a supplicating idiot with no backbone or pride.

 

This is basically the opposite extreme.

[Els]

I have NEVER said "thinking." How many times do I have to clarify that??

 

And I am also not claiming that all men who objectify are rapists. But I am saying that allowing objectification of a stranger's body encourages a culture that trivializes rape. It isn't so much about an individual... it's about a society that says a woman had it coming, or that a woman should have "defended" herself or was putting off "sexual" vibes. It all ties together into a society that objectifies women on one hand, and then makes them entirely responsible for someone else's behavior on the other.

 

I have said over and over that men are free to objectify women in their heads, or when a woman has shown she is receptive to their advances. All I ask is that except in those situations, people keep their comments about other people's bodies to themselves. Why are people arguing against this?? Why is such common courtesy being fought against?

 

FWIW, I agree that people should keep offensive comments about other people's bodies to themselves. It IS common courtesy and it is most definitely rude not to. They do have the 'right' to, because people have the right to do whatever they like - you could purposefully walk out and sneeze great watery boogers all over the next guy who passes and claim that you had the 'right' to do so, but you'd still be rude. Ditto with those guys.

 

What I am curious about, is how you so insistently and instantly connect obnoxious people who make derogatory comments about other people's bodies, to rape. IMO,if you are going to do research about rape, you need to move away from the pigeonhole of 'rape culture' and militant feminist blogs, and move instead to genuine psychoanalysis studies of rapists and their past history, etc. I've seen the rape culture blogs, and they link EVERYthing, from movies to songs to anime to video games, EVERYthing that shows sexy women or talks about them, to a 'culture that promotes objectification of women and rape'. That only serves as a smokescreen to blind people to what rape often really is about - hatred and anger towards women, power and domination and control to make up for perceived feelings of inadequacy, and lack of inhibition towards overly-aggressive and misanthropic behaviour.

[Emilia]

 

What I am saying is that by saying "well men should get to comment on stranger's bodies," we are contributing to a culture that doesn't require men to control themselves. If men are capable of controlling their behavior (not raping women), why is it not possible to control your speech as well?

 

Objectifying someone is not seeing them as a person. Period. Thats why it's called "objectification." Encouraging objectification, without that person's consent, means that you are treating them like an object, regardless of their feelings about it. When this sort of behavior is excused and even encouraged, is it any wonder that SOME men take it to a more extreme, and say "Well why can't I have her body? Her feelings don't matter."

 

You are over-simplifying human thinking. Looking at a naked man in a magazine and commenting on him or seeing him running past me in a park wearing something tight will not make me think it would be ok to watch him face down being sodomised by a bottle or something (apologies for being so graphic but I'm making a serious point).

Edited September 24, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[verhrzn]

The premise of your argument isn't being fought against - except your assertion that men talking about women's bodies leads to raping them, which is odd.

 

Perhaps the discussion needs to go somewhere else:

 

I.E. Consent. When is a woman actually giving you consent to talk about her body? In my experience, if a woman HAS to give you consent to talk about her body, chances are she probably won't be attracted to you in the end. A woman isn't going to be like Alisha in Misfits and say "Check out my tits if you want". Because a scenario like that is usually the only surefire way you would be able to do so. If we went by a woman "showing she is receptive to our advances", we would never say anything remotely physical to a woman because half of us would never even know. I may have become a somewhat accurate reader of body language, but even that can lead to miscommunication and still ends up causing offense.

 

There is no way to escape offense being caused. And apologizing for it profusely just makes you look worse in a woman's eyes - it makes you look like a supplicating idiot with no backbone or pride.

 

This is basically the opposite extreme.

 

No, this is an assumption you are making... that apologizing for being a creepy will make you look worse in a woman's eyes.

 

The difference is, if you are speaking to a woman, and make a sexual comment, and she is offended, you can at least APOLOGIZE. You have some type of dialogue with this person... she will feel more comfortable making her offense known (because she has at least spoken to you), and you are more comfortable apologizing for giving offense.

 

I have no freaking idea where you think apologizing will make you look weak in a woman's eyes. That is a fallacy, or at least it isn't a universal truth.

 

Furthermore, it's a completely different scenario than the one we are discussing. I am speaking entirely of strangers... women you have.not spoken to. Yes, you might always risk causing offense, but at least if you make a sexual comment to a woman you've spoken to, she has a way of responding. A stranger does not.... she doesn't know you, she has no idea about your personality. She might not even hear you (but her friend did, and told her later.)

 

It's the difference between making a comment to a stranger, and to an acquaintance. I wouldn't suggest making a sexualized comment to an acquaintance, but if she's flirting, then I can at least see why it'd make sense.

 

But making a comment about a stranger's body is NEVER warranted, because you have no connection with them at all. They have not given you ANY indication they want to speak to you (until the acquaintance, who is at least conversing with you.) If a woman isn't even speaking to you, why is it okay to comment on her body??

[ThaWholigan]

NO. I am NOT saying the men in this thread are potential rapists. What I am saying is that by saying "well men should get to comment on stranger's bodies," we are contributing to a culture that doesn't require men to control themselves. If men are capable of controlling their behavior (not raping women), why is it not possible to control your speech as well?

 

It is possible. But for reasons I stated above, that control is actually not appreciated in general - depending on how much control you have, and how accurate you are at acknowledging "permission". Chances are, you look like a simp. I'm not saying we shouldn't have more control, mind.

Objectifying someone is not seeing them as a person. Period. Thats why it's called "objectification." Encouraging objectification, without that person's consent, means that you are treating them like an object, regardless of their feelings about it. When this sort of behavior is excused and even encouraged, is it any wonder that SOME men take it to a more extreme, and say "Well why can't I have her body? Her feelings don't matter."

You know full well that we are unlikely to do so at the expense of someone else's feelings. We have more sense than that - that you keep asserting this point is redundant because we already get it, yet you keep saying we don't get it. Edited September 24, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Mme. Chaucer]

There is a short and slippery slope that leads directly between the "rape culture" rhetoric (men who do thus and so are promoting rape) and the "she dressed like a ho so she asked for and deserved it" mindset.

 

Two sides of the same coin, practically.

[Els]

The premise of your argument isn't being fought against - except your assertion that men talking about women's bodies leads to raping them, which is odd.

 

Perhaps the discussion needs to go somewhere else:

 

I.E. Consent. When is a woman actually giving you consent to talk about her body? In my experience, if a woman HAS to give you consent to talk about her body, chances are she probably won't be attracted to you in the end. A woman isn't going to be like Alisha in Misfits and say "Check out my tits if you want". Because a scenario like that is usually the only surefire way you would be able to do so. If we went by a woman "showing she is receptive to our advances", we would never say anything remotely physical to a woman because half of us would never even know. I may have become a somewhat accurate reader of body language, but even that can lead to miscommunication and still ends up causing offense.

 

There is no way to escape offense being caused. And apologizing for it profusely just makes you look worse in a woman's eyes - it makes you look like a supplicating idiot with no backbone or pride.

 

This is basically the opposite extreme.

 

Hey, we make mistakes. As long as you err on the side of positivity and use nice language when unsure ('you have lovely eyes' is a lot less likely to be offensive than 'damn, bitch, you sure gots a nice rack, I'd love to fsck it!' ), I think you'd be okay most of the time.

 

If you do offend, apologize, but not profusely. Just offer a genuine apology and move on.

[Emilia]

And why is it wrong and offensive to ask people to control their speech and behavior in public?

 

Because a lot of people are not as bothered by it as you are. Your opinion and feelings are not superior to everyone else's.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Trying to control other people is a losing proposition. Just help people be educated and also to be a LOT more conscious of one another as fellow human beings sharing the same path as you are.

 

Boxing in male sexuality like most of v's posts here seem to be trying to do is not that different than making women wear burkas to confine their sexuality.

 

People will express themselves as they choose to. If that is in a way that is detrimental to other people, I hope those who do that learn to stop it and to express themselves differently.

 

Getting "MEN" (generic) to feel "BAD" is not going to work.

[ThaWholigan]

No, this is an assumption you are making... that apologizing for being a creepy will make you look worse in a woman's eyes.

 

The difference is, if you are speaking to a woman, and make a sexual comment, and she is offended, you can at least APOLOGIZE. You have some type of dialogue with this person... she will feel more comfortable making her offense known (because she has at least spoken to you), and you are more comfortable apologizing for giving offense.

 

I have no freaking idea where you think apologizing will make you look weak in a woman's eyes. That is a fallacy, or at least it isn't a universal truth.

 

Well it's happened before, albeit it wasn't a sexual comment. Perhaps profusely was OTT. But it happens. Either way, there's no coming back and you look like a dick regardless. Which is why I said earlier, that perhaps the most effective solution to denigrate offense would simply be to not comment on women's bodies at all.

 

Furthermore, it's a completely different scenario than the one we are discussing. I am speaking entirely of strangers... women you have.not spoken to. Yes, you might always risk causing offense, but at least if you make a sexual comment to a woman you've spoken to, she has a way of responding. A stranger does not.... she doesn't know you, she has no idea about your personality. She might not even hear you (but her friend did, and told her later.)

 

It's the difference between making a comment to a stranger, and to an acquaintance. I wouldn't suggest making a sexualized comment to an acquaintance, but if she's flirting, then I can at least see why it'd make sense.

 

But making a comment about a stranger's body is NEVER warranted, because you have no connection with them at all. They have not given you ANY indication they want to speak to you (until the acquaintance, who is at least conversing with you.) If a woman isn't even speaking to you, why is it okay to comment on her body??

 

I have only ever complimented a stranger a handful of times, and never once have I referred specifically to her body. Specific scenarios will always vary, and strangers are obviously the most extreme. To compare a general verbalization of a woman's body to leery men in cars screaming at women going past or harassing women on trains is not that far a stretch, but far enough for us to suggest that this is not the kind of behavior we are referring to when we are talking about women's bodies.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Originally Posted by verhrzn

And why is it wrong and offensive to ask people to control their speech and behavior in public?

 

You also have said that they should control their speech on the Internet. And what you want them to conform to is YOUR standards of what YOU feel is appropriate; what would not hurt YOUR feelings.

 

Even if you are correct and what you are objecting to is hurtful to many, do you not understand how and why we can't let some individuals "feelings" dictate how other people are permitted to act?

 

What make you confident that YOUR particular feelings would "win" in this battle? There are lots of moaning MRA guys right here on LoveShack who feel that any of us hateful wimmins expressing ourselves is hurtful to their masculinity and even to their souls. What if THEY won and WE had to stuff it?

[verhrzn]

FWIW, I agree that people should keep offensive comments about other people's bodies to themselves. It IS common courtesy and it is most definitely rude not to. They do have the 'right' to, because people have the right to do whatever they like - you could purposefully walk out and sneeze great watery boogers all over the next guy who passes and claim that you had the 'right' to do so, but you'd still be rude. Ditto with those guys.

 

What I am curious about, is how you so insistently and instantly connect obnoxious people who make derogatory comments about other people's bodies, to rape. IMO,if you are going to do research about rape, you need to move away from the pigeonhole of 'rape culture' and militant feminist blogs, and move instead to genuine psychoanalysis studies of rapists and their past history, etc. I've seen the rape culture blogs, and they link EVERYthing, from movies to songs to anime to video games, EVERYthing that shows sexy women or talks about them, to a 'culture that promotes objectification of women and rape'. That only serves as a smokescreen to blind people to what rape often really is about - hatred and anger towards women, power and domination and control to make up for perceived feelings of inadequacy, and lack of inhibition towards overly-aggressive and misanthropic behaviour.

 

For me, I connect them due to the issue of consent. Like I said in response to ThaWhalogian, I don't see objectification in and of itself as contributing to rape culture. If a woman is flirting with you, and you make a sexual comment, even if that woman gets offended, I wouldn't call it "objectification." In that case, I'd see it as just miscommunication... Because in that case, the man is at least trying to get to know her as a peson (having a conversation with her), and is making a sexual comment based on their interaction (she is conversing/flirting with him, establishing a rapport.)

 

I also don't see objectification in terms of partners as bad. A boyfriend telling his girlfriend that he "loves her rack/tits" is perfectly fine. She might be offended by it, but because they are in a relationship, she probably feels safe to voice her objection, and because he sees her as a person (which is why he is dating her), he can adjust his behavior.

 

So "consent" is maybe just a key word for "established relationship." If a man and a woman have SOME sort of relationship, even if it's just an acquaintance, then I think objectification is not strictly a problem.

 

I am speaking only in terms where a man does not have a connection with a woman.... hasn't really spoken to her, does not know anything about her except her body. That is when I start seeing "rape culture".... because he is verbally objectifying her body without her having any way of responding, since there is no established connection between them.

 

In a conversation with a woman, a man makes a sexual comment to express his interest and admiration, but he has also shown (by talking to her) that he sees her as a person.

 

But a man who just starts out with a sexual comment, has NOT shown he sees her as a person. Without speaking to her, without knowing how she would respond, he is signaling that all he sees is her body. He makes a comment not knowing how she'll feel about it, signaling that he doesn't care about her feelings (otherwise he'd try to find out first.)

 

I see nothing wrong with objectifying in your head, or after some small talk. But verbalizing a sexual comment to a stranger strikes me as some kind of control.

[joystickd]

Trying to control other people is a losing proposition. Just help people be educated and also to be a LOT more conscious of one another as fellow human beings sharing the same path as you are.

 

Boxing in male sexuality like most of v's posts here seem to be trying to do is not that different than making women wear burkas to confine their sexuality.

 

People will express themselves as they choose to. If that is in a way that is detrimental to other people, I hope those who do that learn to stop it and to express themselves differently.

 

Getting "MEN" (generic) to feel "BAD" is not going to work.

Some of the men that have committed sexual violence are men that have been made to feel bad about their sexual desires.

[ThaWholigan]

Trying to control other people is a losing proposition. Just help people be educated and also to be a LOT more conscious of one another as fellow human beings sharing the same path as you are.

 

Boxing in male sexuality like most of v's posts here seem to be trying to do is not that different than making women wear burkas to confine their sexuality.

 

People will express themselves as they choose to. If that is in a way that is detrimental to other people, I hope those who do that learn to stop it and to express themselves differently.

 

Getting "MEN" (generic) to feel "BAD" is not going to work.

 

I don't think V has necessarily "boxed" in male sexuality - rather she is demanding we "box" in at least part of it .

 

Hey, we make mistakes. As long as you err on the side of positivity and use nice language when unsure ('you have lovely eyes' is a lot less likely to be offensive than 'damn, bitch, you sure gots a nice rack, I'd love to fsck it!' ), I think you'd be okay most of the time.

 

If you do offend, apologize, but not profusely. Just offer a genuine apology and move on.

 

I have been OK most of the time. I mean the scenario that is the one I'm more referring to in regard to myself, is when I'm on the street and I see a gorgeous girl or a gorgeous acquaintance - I generally don't say anything. The time I will say "Rah, I saw this amazing girl, she had x features and y hair" is on the internet, where I feel safe that I'm not causing offense. If I'm causing offense just doing that? Well, I don't see the point in describing it anymore, I'm not going to be chastised for something as harmless as that, and be compared to rapists, and leery men who can't STFU .

[joystickd]

For me, I connect them due to the issue of consent. Like I said in response to ThaWhalogian, I don't see objectification in and of itself as contributing to rape culture. If a woman is flirting with you, and you make a sexual comment, even if that woman gets offended, I wouldn't call it "objectification." In that case, I'd see it as just miscommunication... Because in that case, the man is at least trying to get to know her as a peson (having a conversation with her), and is making a sexual comment based on their interaction (she is conversing/flirting with him, establishing a rapport.)

 

I also don't see objectification in terms of partners as bad. A boyfriend telling his girlfriend that he "loves her rack/tits" is perfectly fine. She might be offended by it, but because they are in a relationship, she probably feels safe to voice her objection, and because he sees her as a person (which is why he is dating her), he can adjust his behavior.

 

So "consent" is maybe just a key word for "established relationship." If a man and a woman have SOME sort of relationship, even if it's just an acquaintance, then I think objectification is not strictly a problem.

 

I am speaking only in terms where a man does not have a connection with a woman.... hasn't really spoken to her, does not know anything about her except her body. That is when I start seeing "rape culture".... because he is verbally objectifying her body without her having any way of responding, since there is no established connection between them.

 

In a conversation with a woman, a man makes a sexual comment to express his interest and admiration, but he has also shown (by talking to her) that he sees her as a person.

 

But a man who just starts out with a sexual comment, has NOT shown he sees her as a person. Without speaking to her, without knowing how she would respond, he is signaling that all he sees is her body. He makes a comment not knowing how she'll feel about it, signaling that he doesn't care about her feelings (otherwise he'd try to find out first.)

 

I see nothing wrong with objectifying in your head, or after some small talk. But verbalizing a sexual comment to a stranger strikes me as some kind of control.

How do you know he is or is not seeing them as a person? You are just assuming he is not seeing her as a person. How is verbalizing a sexual comment control?

[verhrzn]

Originally Posted by verhrzn

 

 

You also have said that they should control their speech on the Internet. And what you want them to conform to is YOUR standards of what YOU feel is appropriate; what would not hurt YOUR feelings.

 

Even if you are correct and what you are objecting to is hurtful to many, do you not understand how and why we can't let some individuals "feelings" dictate how other people are permitted to act?

 

What make you confident that YOUR particular feelings would "win" in this battle? There are lots of moaning MRA guys right here on LoveShack who feel that any of us hateful wimmins expressing ourselves is hurtful to their masculinity and even to their souls. What if THEY won and WE had to stuff it?

 

Actually, my feelings don't really matter. I am not speaking personally.

 

And I've already said the Internet is a bizarre place. Public, but not. So social rules are murky and strange.

 

I still say that the world would be a better place if NEITHER sex was physically objectified except on an individual, consenting level. (As in, we objectify our partner, or someone who has shown they are open to our sexual interests.)

 

I would rather err on the side of not hurting other people's feelings. It's why I absolutely never discuss a guy's height or income, unless expressly asked. I don't see that as "stuffing" it. I see it as considerate. I see it as respect.... that someone else has the same right to their feelings as I do, and it costs me nothing to be polite.

 

And it doesn't. If we were considerate of other people's feelings.... not verbally objectifying other people's bodies... what exactly would we lose? How would that be a bad thing?

[William]

We'd prefer to leave this thread open so I'll advise members to maintain civility and respect for each other's views and to address the topic, which is men talking about women. Stage Two.

[verhrzn]

I don't think V has necessarily "boxed" in male sexuality - rather she is demanding we "box" in at least part of it .

 

I really don't get how asking men to stop making comments about women's bodies unless they have an idea their sexual advances are wanting, is "boxing in" male sexuality.

[joystickd]

Actually, my feelings don't really matter. I am not speaking personally.

 

And I've already said the Internet is a bizarre place. Public, but not. So social rules are murky and strange.

 

I still say that the world would be a better place if NEITHER sex was physically objectified except on an individual, consenting level. (As in, we objectify our partner, or someone who has shown they are open to our sexual interests.)

 

I would rather err on the side of not hurting other people's feelings. It's why I absolutely never discuss a guy's height or income, unless expressly asked. I don't see that as "stuffing" it. I see it as considerate. I see it as respect.... that someone else has the same right to their feelings as I do, and it costs me nothing to be polite.

 

And it doesn't. If we were considerate of other people's feelings.... not verbally objectifying other people's bodies... what exactly would we lose? How would that be a bad thing?

You just going to have to woman up and accept that as a part of life feelings are going to get hurt. I have had so much crap told to me in my life if I had let it get to me I would honestly be in prison right now. When you let what someone says about you affect you negatively they win.

[Emilia]

I would rather err on the side of not hurting other people's feelings. It's why I absolutely never discuss a guy's height or income, unless expressly asked. I don't see that as "stuffing" it. I see it as considerate. I see it as respect.... that someone else has the same right to their feelings as I do, and it costs me nothing to be polite.

 

And it doesn't. If we were considerate of other people's feelings.... not verbally objectifying other people's bodies... what exactly would we lose? How would that be a bad thing?

 

A colleague of mine wanted to b**ch about people in the office and I declined because I don't like it, he made the point that they probably do the same about us behind our back but I said that didn't matter.

 

However! I have been known to compliment his body behind his back (he is a boxer and an ultramarathon runner so it's pretty good) and I very much doubt he would be offended. Especially as he would sleep with me at a drop of a hat if I wanted to.

 

Not everyone cares about being objectified. I wouldn't go and say bad stuff about a guy's height or say he had a small c**k or anything like that. But when I think one is hot I will say so. 99% would not be offended I can guarantee that.

[joystickd]

WARNING: Whatever you do, STAY AWAY from the "aureolas" thread!

Aureolas! :D:D:D

[verhrzn]

You just going to have to woman up and accept that as a part of life feelings are going to get hurt. I have had so much crap told to me in my life if I had let it get to me I would honestly be in prison right now. When you let what someone says about you affect you negatively they win.

 

Yes, I'm just going to have to accept that my friend gets sexually assaulted because a guy thought he "deserved" to have sex, that women's bodies end up on Reddit forums because they are out in public being all "female" and so deserve to have their pictures taken, that I deserve to have comments made about my fat and disgusting body because I am sitting on a bus riding to the library. Gee, whyever would I want to change all that? Men are just so gosh darn charming in those scenarios.