Men talking about women

[joystickd]

So?? So some women like it.... big deal. That does not mean ALL women like it. You have testimony, right here, of women who don't like it. So you're going to harass women on the off chance they find it sexy? Gee, how attractive. I can't wonder why some women would object to that...

You are very far from getting the point I am trying to make. Too much emotion clouding the logic right now. It's ok though. As I was saying there are women that enable you want to change that then you have to change women's attitude about enabling it.

[TheBigQuestion]

But we're not discussing street harassment. Veggirl isn't even on the street.... she's speaking about strangers at a gas station. At her work. AKA, not on the street.

 

I have said in this thread over and over and over again.... I do not want men to stop being attracted to women. Heck, I don't even want them to stop making positive comments about a girl's body. But I want the guys to find out FIRST if those advances are wanted. In other words, have a flirty conversation with a girl FIRST in which she gives you signs that she is romantically interested in you BEFORE you pull out the sexual comments/discussions of her body.

 

If you have not had even had a conversation with a girl where she has given you her name, keep your comments about her body to yourself.

 

Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp? Why do you guys keep turning it into a straw man of "well women do it!" or "stop trying to change men!" when I am NOT arguing EITHER of those things!

 

Ladies, help me out.... why is this message not getting through?

 

"Street harassment" generally encompasses any public situation. And in case you didn't notice, veggirl agreed with me more than she disagreed with me.

 

Your message HAS gotten through. No one has really disagreed with it. What many people have taken issue with is your suggestion that men change the way they talk about women altogether, whether it be on the internet or amongst themselves because it might hurt somebody's feelings. The initial comments in this thread had more to do with certain female poster's reactions to innocuous comments about women's physical features.

[Janesays]

I believe very strongly in freedom of speech. Never once will you hear me say that ANYONE, male or female, shouldn't be allowed to say whatever they like about whoever they like. But sometimes, I WILL ask people to maybe take a look at what they say and how it affects others.

 

A few pages back, some men where insisting that SOME women like to be objectified. If that is so, I think the number is so small it's not worth considering. I will concede that a lot of woman like to be complimented. Heck, sometimes *I* don't mind being complimented. But there is a difference between complimenting someone physically and objectifying them.

 

For example, a compliment: "You look beautiful today."

 

Objectifying, "Wow, what a great rack! What I wouldn't do to that a$$ if I had the chance!"

 

In one case, the woman can feel like she is being spoken to, like a person, and respected. In the other, she isn't be talked to at all. She's having pieces of her body picked apart and listening to a man's (What should be) inner dialogue of what he'd like to do in his own (what should be) private thoughts. She's not a part of it. She's just submitting to it, if you will.

 

Another female poster said that if women DON'T want to be objectified, they should speak up when they are. For brave, strong, older and more experienced women, this doesn't seem like it'd be that difficult. But sometimes, it is.

 

I am a mere 5 feet tall. Tiny. I also have a D-cup chest, a 27 inch waist, and the ass of J-lo. There are times when I've suggested that I'd prefer not to be oggled and groped and the man has acted with such an entitled FURY, that I've been afraid make that a habit in the future. On just this forum, there was a guy who was angry that his date wasn't paying enough attention to him and he felt it was appropriate to violently slap the cell phone from her hand. Worse than that, the majority of the men applauded his behavior. Now imagine you're tiny little ol' me. How comfortable do you feel standing up for yourself to a man that is triple your size and a bit of a hot head?

 

Consider the fact that 1 out of every 3 college age girls are sexually assaulted before they graduate.

 

Can you understand the fear of violence?

 

Or, maybe it's not even fear of violence. Maybe it's fear of being socially harassed . Maybe a lot of woman don't want to 'rock the boat' and risk their entire social group labeling them a stuck up little b!tch prude should they make note that something makes them uncomfortable. No one likes to feel publicly humiliated. And, as a woman, there is always the knowledge that if you just 'take it,' at least it will be over quicker than if you DON'T submit. If you refuse to submit, it will turn into, at the very least, name calling. And the worst, violence.

 

As a man, have you ever been afraid of being raped? Even worse, if you WERE raped by an angry gay man, do you think most of the women of the world would be sympathetic? Or do you think they'd say, "He should have known better to walk down that street! Well, look at the way he was dressed! He was asking for it!"

 

That's called being violated twice, my friends. And very rarely do I think men ever consider what that MIGHT feel like. Women consider it. Especially considering the 1 in 3 statistic and the fact that if they HAVEN'T experienced it first hand, they personally know and love quite a few women who have.

 

I'm 33 years old. I dress rather plain. I wear no make up. I style my hair by running my fingers through it. Naturally, I'm a platinum blonde, but I have dyed my hair red for the past 8 years. Why red, you ask? Because according to most surveys, red is the least favorite hair color among the male population. In think it's pretty save to say, for career reasons, that I go out of my way to NOT be seen as a sex symbol.

 

Still, in my short 33 years, I have experienced:

 

1. At the age of 6, my teenage male babysitter buried his head in my lap while I was watching tv, stuck his nose in my crotch, and said, "mmmm, you smell sooooo good!" I remember spending the rest of the night hiding under my bed.

 

2. Throughout my childhood, I've had a good 3 to 6 grown men, boyfriends of my Mother, grope me, try to kiss me, or touch me intimately while I was sleeping.

 

3. As a young women (before I bought a rotty and escaped into the woods), it was rare that I could walk down the street without men in cars screaming sleezy things about what they'd like to do to me in bed.

 

4. At my first bartending job, two of the cooks used to grab my breasts, ass, and twice even stuck their hands down my pants. Should I complain, they'd mess up my customers food ruining my chance at decent tips.

 

5. At my college apartment, one of my roommate's male friends snuck into my room at night during a party and asked me to have sex. When I refused and tried to kick him out, he yanked down his pants and started masturbating. I remember spinning around, staring at the wall with tears in my eyes, too afraid to let anyone in the house know what was happening to me lest they laugh or call me stuck up, while this man jerked off in my silk bathrobe, threw it on the floor and walked out with a cheerful 'thanks!' As if I was OK with it.

 

Jesus, I could go on and on. What do you think I have learned from all of this?

 

Or, let's talk about how my appearance has effected me professionally. I already mentioned how I started dying my hair because I was tired of my work being discounted because, obviously, I was just a slutty blond.

 

But let me tell you about my college career. As some of you know, I eventually got a job in college writing. I used to write about politics and social issues. I started realizing that based on the pen name I used, men's perception of my articles changed. So I started an experiment.

 

Using the same, exact article, I published it on the internet using:

 

1. A female name, no picture. Most of my male readers insisted that I only thought the way I did because I was fat, ugly, and no man wanted me. Because, you know, only fat, ugly, celibate woman are allowed to have opinions. And they are, as a rule, totally irrelevant being that they are unattractive.

 

2. Using a male name, no picture. My physical appearance or whether or not I was having sex wasn't brought up at all. Men just debated the merits of my article, whether they agreed or disagreed.

 

3. Using a female name, and a picture of a model. A shocking 92% of male posters immediately agreed with everything I said, and said they wished 'more women were like me.'

 

What can I deduce from this? My opinions only count when people think I'm man. If I'm a woman, they are either automatically correct or incorrect based on how attractive I am.

 

How did I respond?

 

I quit writing. It was something I had loved to do since childhood. And I quit. Because I felt no matter how hard I worked at it, it would never matter. Because of my sex and how I look.

 

These are things I think men should consider. Maybe you will never KNOW what it feels like, so maybe it's impossible for you to truly empathize. But at least TRY to consider.

 

If that colors how you talk about or treat women in your future, great. If not, oh well. It's not like we, as women, haven't been trained to 'get used to it, men are very visually so they have a basic RIGHT to treat us like meat' since we were very, very, very young.

 

I apologize for this being so long. If you made it to the end, thanks for reading guys!

[TheBigQuestion]

^ Your stories are certainly unfortunate. No guy posting in this thread thinks you're an exceptionally rare case. With that said, this thread has little or nothing to do with any of the predatory and sometimes criminal behavior you just outlined. And for the last time, no one has condoned any of the things that have happened to you.

[ThaWholigan]

^ Your stories are certainly unfortunate. No guy posting in this thread thinks you're an exceptionally rare case. With that said, this thread has little or nothing to do with any of the predatory and sometimes criminal behavior you just outlined. And for the last time, no one has condoned any of the things that have happened to you.

I think that the whole "men talking about women" is being a little misconstrued. When we talk about a woman's body in a way that some could possibly deem inappropriate, we usually do so in private anyway. Either way, when I say "talking about women or their bodies", it's not even close to the derogatory way that is being described in some of the unfortunate stories being described - indeed much like the tumblr link posted by Verhrzn earlier (which is one of those posts that makes me see why so many men are actually afraid of approaching women ).

 

Which is why I questioned whether it is better to just not do it full stop. Because if even a light, passing compliment that probably has nothing to do with her body (and it usually doesn't happen upon first approach in my experience), then it's no point even doing it .

 

Either way, there IS a happy medium.

[verhrzn]

I am really sorry to hear about your experiences Jane. They are heart-breaking, and all too common. Last year, a good friend of mine was sexually assaulted, just because she was there. Just because the guy interpreted her actions as inviting his sexual advances. It just destroys me, watching my beautiful and kind-hearted friend suffer the way she still does. How she was terrified for months to be around even large groups of friends, let alone strangers.

 

BigQuestion, this has everything to do with this thread. THIS is why women react the way they do and feel the way they do about being objectified. This is why women want men's sexual comments to be kept to themselves. This is what we've been trying to get across this entire thread, and yet somehow it always circles back to "the poor men." What will it take to understand the woman's side of this issue??

 

PS: I also know that I complain, a lot, about my looks. But I suppose a bright side of being ugly is that I have never really experienced harassment. There was one incident when I was living in Japan.... I was walking towards the train station, my arms laden down with bags, when a guy ran up behind me and groped me. He then took off into the dark. I just stood there in shock for a moment, then broke down crying to my friend. He just sat on the phone saying," Well what do you expect me to do about it?"

[ThaWholigan]

I am really sorry to hear about your experiences Jane. They are heart-breaking, and all too common. Last year, a good friend of mine was sexually assaulted, just because she was there. Just because the guy interpreted her actions as inviting his sexual advances. It just destroys me, watching my beautiful and kind-hearted friend suffer the way she still does. How she was terrified for months to be around even large groups of friends, let alone strangers.

 

I have known many girls who have been sexually assaulted. Too many in fact. It really does hit home.

 

BigQuestion, this has everything to do with this thread. THIS is why women react the way they do and feel the way they do about being objectified. This is why women want men's sexual comments to be kept to themselves. This is what we've been trying to get across this entire thread, and yet somehow it always circles back to "the poor men." What will it take to understand the woman's side of this issue??

 

That isn't really fair - we have understood very well. The debate hasn't been an inflammatory one (thankfully), and we have certainly taken on board the concerns brought forward. It's not about the "poor men", it is more an expression of our own frustration at the situation - not a dismissal of the frustrations of women at objectification.

 

PS: I also know that I complain, a lot, about my looks. But I suppose a bright side of being ugly is that I have never really experienced harassment. There was one incident when I was living in Japan.... I was walking towards the train station, my arms laden down with bags, when a guy ran up behind me and groped me. He then took off into the dark. I just stood there in shock for a moment, then broke down crying to my friend. He just sat on the phone saying," Well what do you expect me to do about it?"

 

I've said it before, I'll say it again - your friends, man.... What a tactless thing to say after an incident like that.

[TheBigQuestion]

 

BigQuestion, this has everything to do with this thread. THIS is why women react the way they do and feel the way they do about being objectified. This is why women want men's sexual comments to be kept to themselves. This is what we've been trying to get across this entire thread, and yet somehow it always circles back to "the poor men." What will it take to understand the woman's side of this issue??

 

 

This has everything to do with this thread? Explain why/how. Go ahead and try to establish that a guy saying that a woman he went on a date with had nice breasts somehow turns into, or encourages, criminal sexual behavior. Truthfully, there are so many different ideas, viewpoints, and conversations being exchanged in this thread, I have a hard time figuring what is being debated anymore.

[TheBigQuestion]

I have known many girls who have been sexually assaulted. Too many in fact. It really does hit home.

 

 

 

Same here. My girlfriend went through an attempted rape, while I was dating her no less, so this isn't really a conversation I take lightly.

[verhrzn]

This has everything to do with this thread? Explain why/how. Go ahead and try to establish that a guy saying that a woman he went on a date with had nice breasts somehow turns into, or encourages, criminal sexual behavior. Truthfully, there are so many different ideas, viewpoints, and conversations being exchanged in this thread, I have a hard time figuring what is being debated anymore.

 

Because it encourages turning women into objects. It encourages seeing women as just a collection of body parts to be dissected. A woman isn't "beautiful," she's "a nice rack." It describes a person using just their body... that the individual parts of their body is all that sums them up.

 

Criminal sexual behavior is just the extreme of this... the idea that women are not people, but just a collection of body parts to be used by men for their gratification.

[joystickd]

Talking and groping are two different things.

[ThaWholigan]

Because it encourages turning women into objects. It encourages seeing women as just a collection of body parts to be dissected. A woman isn't "beautiful," she's "a nice rack." It describes a person using just their body... that the individual parts of their body is all that sums them up.

 

Criminal sexual behavior is just the extreme of this... the idea that women are not people, but just a collection of body parts to be used by men for their gratification.

This is the post that sparked the entire exchange with DY, and as such, this thread:

 

We met up and if she's a few extra pounds I should list myself as slender and I'm no light weight at 5'10" 220. OTOH she is very pretty and has a movie star rack. That being said if she had full pics I never would of went out with her. I know it sounds mean but like I said I'm not shooting for bikini girls and have no problems with women who are a little chunky but where do you draw the line? Am I shallow if I don't want to date a woman who is bigger than me proportionatley? What about literally? She literally has a bigger stomach than me IMO. I did have a good time so I'll ask her for another date and keep my options open as I'm messaging a few other women.

 

This was DY's response:

 

Well as long as she has a movie star rack that's what counts.

 

You shouldn't force yourself to date someone you feel like you have to make concessions for. You aren't doing her or you any favors.

 

Are you shallow for not wanting to date a woman who is bigger then you? I don't know. But you seem really hung up on her body more then anything else. At least you can sooth your eyes with her movie star rack.

 

Remember, she isn't really a person. She's just a woman you are going to bang so her body better be good right?

 

This is why porn screws men up.

 

I made this thread because I though DY's response was an overreaction, and wanted to gauge how many women really thought like this.

[joystickd]

If we were having a conversation in which I showed interest in him. If I was merely asking him for directions to the grocery store, and he whipped out "Hmm your ass looks fine," his looks would have NOTHING to do with me thinking that was gross and a major boundary issue.

 

ThaWhalogian, you may think the conversation is over, but look what women have to deal with? That even when we directly say it bothers us, men DTILL argue that they have the right to comment on our bodies?

 

I have never said men have a right to talk about women's bodies.

[TheBigQuestion]

Because it encourages turning women into objects. It encourages seeing women as just a collection of body parts to be dissected. A woman isn't "beautiful," she's "a nice rack." It describes a person using just their body... that the individual parts of their body is all that sums them up.

 

Criminal sexual behavior is just the extreme of this... the idea that women are not people, but just a collection of body parts to be used by men for their gratification.

 

I don't deny that objectification takes place. However, the fact that a woman is objectified does not entail their dehumanization. I've known plenty of women whom (1) I was a pretty sweet person to be around and (2) have remarked about one of her bodily features to someone else. What you don't seem to understand is that these two thought processes occur simultaneously in men pretty much all the time.

[verhrzn]

I have never said men have a right to talk about women's bodies.

 

Then why are you arguing that I'm trying to "change men," or that some women like it, or that you're gonna say what you want and women just have to "deal" with it?? If you haven't said anything about men not having a right to talk about women's bodies, then what in the world have you been arguing in this thread??

[TheBigQuestion]

I've known many girls who claim they've been sexually assaulted. I've known very few who actually were.

 

 

Women have a very liberal definition of what constitutes sexual assault. Taking a woman off the street at knife point is not that common, most "sexual assaults" are women getting really drunk and going home with men they aren't attracted to sober.

 

When I was younger, but recently pubescent (I forgot, around 12 or something) I had a teenage babysitter who was a girl that used to masturbate me. And I liked it! Technically I was sexually assaulted, but I thought it was awesome at the time. It's hard to find the roles reversed, because a man who does that to a girl gets thrown in prison for a very long time.

 

We need to have a real definition of sexual assault, so the people who get a pat on their ass or something else that's harmless don't think they're on the same level as actual rape victims.

 

Honestly, I don't think the way the sexual assault laws are written or defined by people constitutes a problem.

 

At various points in my life, starting from 7th grade onward, there were occasions in which females have grabbed my ass, my crotch, made disparaging sexual remarks at me or about me, etc. I've had women punch me in the nuts. I had a drunk girl try to rip my pants off in full view of a party. All of these acts can constitute sexual assault depending on the jurisdiction. I think what really makes the difference is that most women cannot overpower men. But when it comes to the actual actions of people, both sexes are "attackers" according to the letter and spirit of the law.

[Janesays]

Glad you enjoyed your sexual assaults. Personally, I didn't enjoy mine. Are you suggesting that since you liked it, I'm ridiculous for voicing my displeasure. Or are you suggesting I asked for it since I was obviously 'drunk' at the age of 6 or at work or sleeping in my own bedroom at night?

 

Dude, screw you.

 

I don't want to be objectified because it's dehumanizing. And when people quit looking at you as a person with feelings, but instead an OBJECT, it's very easy to make the mental leap that it's OK to use this breathing OBJECT as a means to your end.

 

Especially if you also think, 'well I'D like it if it happened to me...."

[Negative Nancy]

Because it encourages turning women into objects. It encourages seeing women as just a collection of body parts to be dissected. A woman isn't "beautiful," she's "a nice rack." It describes a person using just their body... that the individual parts of their body is all that sums them up.

 

Criminal sexual behavior is just the extreme of this... the idea that women are not people, but just a collection of body parts to be used by men for their gratification.

 

I don't want to be objectified because it's dehumanizing. And when people quit looking at you as a person with feelings, but instead an OBJECT, it's very easy to make the mental leap that it's OK to use this breathing OBJECT as a means to your end.

 

Especially if you also think, 'well I'D like it if it happened to me...."

 

very good points, but good luck with getting this through men's heads, they will never understand.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Negative Nancy

[joystickd]

Then why are you arguing that I'm trying to "change men," or that some women like it, or that you're gonna say what you want and women just have to "deal" with it?? If you haven't said anything about men not having a right to talk about women's bodies, then what in the world have you been arguing in this thread??

 

Women enable and if you want to change the behavior then women must be iincluded. when you ask someone to stop something you are changing them

[Janesays]

 

 

 

Funny, Victorian women weren't objectified. Maybe you are giving off some sort of vibe that makes people think you are sexually available.

 

 

.[/QUOTe]

 

Er.....how many Victorian women do you know personally again?

 

And you're obviously right. I'm a woman, so it's my fault. I must have given of a 'vibe' that I WANTED to be assaulted.

 

Never mind that if you were sexually assaulted by a group of large gay men, NO ONE would blame you or your mysterious sex 'vibe.'

[xxoo]

I made this thread because I though DY's response was an overreaction, and wanted to gauge how many women really thought like this.

 

I agree that it was an overreaction.

 

I think either gender could go out on an essentially blind date (OLD seems close, as pictures can misrepresent--intentionally or otherwise), and be disappointed that the sexual attraction just isn't there. It doesn't make the other person any less a whole person if you aren't attracted to their body. You could be great friends, maybe, but not great romantic partners.

 

Most men I know have women in their lives that they value outside of women they sleep with. Men can value a woman, even if he doesn't want to sleep with her. Men can also value a women that he does want to sleep with. But in the situation you were quoting, not being sexually attracted enough to date her doesn't mean he didn't see her as a full human being.

[verhrzn]

I agree that it was an overreaction.

 

I think either gender could go out on an essentially blind date (OLD seems close, as pictures can misrepresent--intentionally or otherwise), and be disappointed that the sexual attraction just isn't there. It doesn't make the other person any less a whole person if you aren't attracted to their body. You could be great friends, maybe, but not great romantic partners.

 

Most men I know have women in their lives that they value outside of women they sleep with. Men can value a woman, even if he doesn't want to sleep with her. Men can also value a women that he does want to sleep with. But in the situation you were quoting, not being sexually attracted enough to date her doesn't mean he didn't see her as a full human being.

 

Agreed that it doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't see her as a full human being.... but when he's dissecting her weight, her "rack", and her body overall, it sure does give the impression that he doesn't view her as a full human being.

 

It wasn't enough for him to say "There were parts about her that were beautiful, but I wasn't attracted to the whole package." Instead he started dissecting her, picking her apart by her body parts. That is where the charge of "objectifying" comes in.

[xxoo]

Agreed that it doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't see her as a full human being.... but when he's dissecting her weight, her "rack", and her body overall, it sure does give the impression that he doesn't view her as a full human being.

 

It wasn't enough for him to say "There were parts about her that were beautiful, but I wasn't attracted to the whole package." Instead he started dissecting her, picking her apart by her body parts. That is where the charge of "objectifying" comes in.

 

The thing is, he started the thread about a woman without full body pictures, and body size was the big question from the start.

 

Updating that, in fact, her body size was unattractive to him was appropriate for the thread, imo. The way I see it, he was in an awkward position, and he was talking out how he felt and what he wanted to do. He was attracted to her in some ways, but was it enough? He sounded undecided to me.

[verhrzn]

The thing is, he started the thread about a woman without full body pictures, and body size was the big question from the start.

 

Updating that, in fact, her body size was unattractive to him was appropriate for the thread, imo. The way I see it, he was in an awkward position, and he was talking out how he felt and what he wanted to do. He was attracted to her in some ways, but was it enough? He sounded undecided to me.

 

Which is fine, but he put his feelings into words in a crude and objectifying way. There is nothing wrong with feelings.... there IS something wrong with discussing them in a crass way. The "nice rack" comment, for example, was uncalled for.

[TheBigQuestion]

The "nice rack" comment, for example, was uncalled for.

 

Solely in your opinion. Stop trying to universalize your preferences just so you can avoid getting YOUR feelings hurt.