Men talking about women

[ThaWholigan]

But some women really don't have those kinds of thoughts about the random men in their lives, so it is more difficult to understand.

 

A woman posted earlier about never knowing if this man she is talking to is interested in her thoughts and opinions, or if he is only listening to her to get into her pants.

 

Can men relate to that?

 

Can you see how frustrating and discouraging that would be for a professional woman, to learn that your coworkers are paying more attention to your physical body than your body of knowledge?

I can see how that would annoy women to be honest. Product of having a mother whom a lot of men have considered attractive over the years, and still do.

 

I cannot relate to it admittedly, although I can and do try. Like I have said before - it wouldn't annoy me if people paid more attention to my body/looks than my knowledge. Probably because people already pay copious amounts of attention to my knowledge, it would actually be refreshing. Perhaps I understand a lot more than I let on, it's probably the reverse for women.

[xxoo]

If she is attractive most men are doing both and so are most women.

 

I disagree. Some women, but not most. Most women have an "off" position to their libido during points of the day, and are not thinking about sex 24/7. Most.

 

Not everything about men and women is exactly the same--and that's the way it is meant to be!

[Lonely Ronin]

A woman posted earlier about never knowing if this man she is talking to is interested in her thoughts and opinions, or if he is only listening to her to get into her pants.

 

Can men relate to that?

 

I personally can relate to this, because i have had a couple women act this way around me.

 

Most women have an "off" position to their libido during points of the day, and are not thinking about sex 24/7.

 

Most men are off as well, I think the difference between men and women is how long it takes to get back into the on position.

[xxoo]

I personally can relate to this, because i have had a couple women act this way around me.

 

A couple would be novel, fun, and flattering.

 

When it happens regularly, possibly affecting your career, that's very different.

[Quiet Storm]

Interesting analysis. Here are a few points that are resonating in my head upon reading.

 

- The irony is that the kind of men who do not think these thoughts or at the very least do not project it, are exactly the kind who do not attract women.

 

Very true. I think some women find it hard to balance what they are logically attracted to, and the attraction that is primal and illogical.

 

- This shows a lack of understanding of men's sexuality in my opinion, or even at a stretch, a poor attempt to do so. If we could switch off the propensity to "objectify" women, we would probably do it - at the very least to satiate the complaints that come with it. So we established that talking about it, especially in a less than satisfactory way is troubling for women. But if thinking about it is bad, are we bad for being physically attracted to women? It's quite a contradictory notion.

 

Exactly. I think there are some women that do not understand male sexuality, and have no desire to understand it. The reality of it can be scary and hurtful, especially to women that have always viewed it in a romantic way, and not a sexual way.

 

- I don't mean to sound brash, but I think it's quite disingenuous of some women to assume that because men like women's bodies - and may like to talk about them in a complimentary manner (I can get real poetic about the subject personally ) - that we have less respect for their thoughts, their character, their achievements and everything else. In fact, a lot of men bend over backwards these days trying to enforce the fact that we do in fact place a lot of admiration for every other attribute that isn't her beauty - in turn those same men are sometimes seen as weak and supplicating.

 

I totally agree. I have always said that I don't think the objectification of women negates a man's ability to love and respect women. I think the physical is often what attracts men to women, but the personality and character of a woman is what prompts men to commit to a woman.

 

- I have become privy to thoughts about women on the internet that I never knew women thought. Some of it would (and does) intimidate and worry a lot of men who don't feel up to the whole attraction game. It works both ways with regards to the internet. I would argue that men who think about women's bodies as well as maybe like to talk about them will see posts like the ones in this thread and possibly feel guilty for even thinking about women in a sexual way. This is backwards in my opinion - a man shouldn't feel guilty for being sexually attracted to women.

 

You're right, women say things online that can cause some men to feel very insecure.

 

I don't think men should feel guilty for being sexually attracted to women, either. It is natural. But men should understand that some women are sensitive about it. I imagine it can be quite confusing for men. There are some women that love to hear details about the ways their body excites their man. And there are others that will not view it as a compliment, and prefer to hear about the nonphysical things that their man loves about them. There are even women that are offended at being physcially appreciated when they are young, and then miss that attention as they age. I think women can be unsure about accepting compliment about our bodies, because we know our body isn't going to stay this way forever. Although it may be unrealistic, we want our men to think we are just as physically attractive as 60 as we were at 20. When only physical attributes are praised, it can make us feel like we have an expiration date. Most men have the best intentions and believe that complimenting the physical will make a woman feel sexy and confident, but it can actually do the opposite and make some women feel insecure.

 

- I think that women have every right to feel aggrieved at the vulgarity with which they are talked about in terms of physical and sexual matters. That much I cannot argue with. It frustrates me when I am berated for even acknowledging a physical thing about a woman that I happened to like very much, without even going into detail or saying it in a way that can be construed as offensive in some way. That is a little over the top to me.

 

Sometimes it's not even the woman's true feelings that prompt her reactions. Society often tells women that we should be offended about things that don't always offend us. If a woman has a mother or friends that believe ''all men are dogs", she may feel conflicted. As in "he's complimenting me and I like it, but I'm not supposed to like it because it means he only wants my body". Religion can affect her reactions to because those influences can create feelings of guilt for enjoying that kind of attention.

 

- Women, as far as I know these days, are exactly the same way when it comes to objectifying men and thinking about them sexually. Perhaps the only ones it offends are the guys who are NOT objectified by women, in a tragic twist of fate for them. I am quite happy for women to admire me physically, it doesn't really bother me either way whether they will or they won't. I think it's mainly a woman thing, because I don't know any man who doesn't want women to look at him sexually. I'm sure there are many valid reasons why, but it's something for women to consider....

 

I agree that men are also objectified. I love my husband's height and broad shoulders, but think about it. Height and shoulders are things that will likely remain unchanged as he ages. When I rub those shoulders and say "Mmmmm I love your shoulders", he's just loving it and enjoying the moment. When a man rubs a girls boobs and says that, she may be thinking "but will he love them when they are wrinkled and saggy? or "am I just a toy for him to play with". Most women want "forever" with their man, and compliments like these can spark the fear that we are only temporary (which is actually true in many cases). Compliments on our other attributes make us feel safer and more secure, because those qualities last forever.

[ThaWholigan]

Most men are off as well, I think the difference between men and women is how long it takes to get back into the on position.

 

I can't say that I'm normally off, I really am a 24/7 guy .

[verhrzn]

I can see how that would annoy women to be honest. Product of having a mother whom a lot of men have considered attractive over the years, and still do.

 

I cannot relate to it admittedly, although I can and do try. Like I have said before - it wouldn't annoy me if people paid more attention to my body/looks than my knowledge. Probably because people already pay copious amounts of attention to my knowledge, it would actually be refreshing. Perhaps I understand a lot more than I let on, it's probably the reverse for women.

 

And women aren't usually paid attention to for their knowledge. A lot of women are stuck in this weird in-between in men listen to their opinions because they are attractive, but don't take those opinions as seriously BECAUSE of how attractive the women are.

 

They've done lots and lots of studies about how people in professional fields (men AND women managers) are given absolutely identical resumes, and yet almost always offer the position to the male interviewee over the female. The men also start out automatically with a higher salary.

 

So while I don't think admiring a woman's body means a guy doesn't respect her, she can't see inside his head... she doesn't know that. We aren't mind-readers. And the ways that women get respect (people listening to their opinions on their own merit, being taken seriously, earning equal pay, etc.) are sadly lacking. When women aren't being taken seriously due to their bodies (female, attractive), and then hear men objectifying these bodies, it creates a very negative feedback loop where women start thinking they are ONLY their bodies, and men (by extension) only SEE those bodies.

 

This is also why the "but women do it too!" argument breaks down. Yes, women objectify men too.... but women, outside of "dating/romance" (if even there) don't have the same power that men do. Men still control the laws (most of Congress is male.) Men still control the businesses (most CEOs are male.) Men still control the entertainment business. So while men and women both objectify physical appearance, women don't have the power to connect their objectifying with any "real life" consequences. Men DO. By virtue of being female, male lawmakers tell me I'll earn a lower wage for equal pay and education, and I'll be judged more harshly in terms of attire and "professional demeanor."

 

Additionally, women objectify SPECIFIC men. Women, by and large, don't spend a great majority of their day thinking sexual thoughts about every sexy man that crosses their path. Men, like you said, can't seem to shut it off. So that leads to the uncomfortable realization, for most women, that absolute strangers are thinking about their bodies.

 

Most people don't like being noticed. Women especially don't like unwanted attention. And realizing that just being female and attractive, they are receiving sexual attention from strangers is very off-putting.

[verhrzn]

I also want to quickly add that I don't think women should HAVE to understand male sexuality. The only sexuality they should try to understand is their partner's (or partners.) The sexuality of a million strangers is absolutely inconsequential. It should not be up to women to "understand" why men are giving them attention. Some stranger's sexual thoughts and desires are none of my business, and I shouldn't HAVE to understand them. No more than I would demand that strangers understand my own psychological make-up. How ridiculous is that, to assume that every woman who you find attractive should try to "understand" you??

[Lonely Ronin]

A couple would be novel, fun, and flattering.

 

When it happens regularly, possibly affecting your career, that's very different.

 

Personally I'd be Ok with it. Not because that's what I want, but because I would be more skilled at spotting it, and thus better prepared to handle the issue.

[joystickd]

And women aren't usually paid attention to for their knowledge. A lot of women are stuck in this weird in-between in men listen to their opinions because they are attractive, but don't take those opinions as seriously BECAUSE of how attractive the women are.

 

They've done lots and lots of studies about how people in professional fields (men AND women managers) are given absolutely identical resumes, and yet almost always offer the position to the male interviewee over the female. The men also start out automatically with a higher salary.

 

So while I don't think admiring a woman's body means a guy doesn't respect her, she can't see inside his head... she doesn't know that. We aren't mind-readers. And the ways that women get respect (people listening to their opinions on their own merit, being taken seriously, earning equal pay, etc.) are sadly lacking. When women aren't being taken seriously due to their bodies (female, attractive), and then hear men objectifying these bodies, it creates a very negative feedback loop where women start thinking they are ONLY their bodies, and men (by extension) only SEE those bodies.

 

This is also why the "but women do it too!" argument breaks down. Yes, women objectify men too.... but women, outside of "dating/romance" (if even there) don't have the same power that men do. Men still control the laws (most of Congress is male.) Men still control the businesses (most CEOs are male.) Men still control the entertainment business. So while men and women both objectify physical appearance, women don't have the power to connect their objectifying with any "real life" consequences. Men DO. By virtue of being female, male lawmakers tell me I'll earn a lower wage for equal pay and education, and I'll be judged more harshly in terms of attire and "professional demeanor."

 

Additionally, women objectify SPECIFIC men. Women, by and large, don't spend a great majority of their day thinking sexual thoughts about every sexy man that crosses their path. Men, like you said, can't seem to shut it off. So that leads to the uncomfortable realization, for most women, that absolute strangers are thinking about their bodies.

 

Most people don't like being noticed. Women especially don't like unwanted attention. And realizing that just being female and attractive, they are receiving sexual attention from strangers is very off-putting.

One of the biggest problems with women and the not having the power men do is other women. There is not the unity and solidarity among women as there is in men. Hell even feminism is divided. One thing I noticed with the career I do women can say something to other women to do and when she walks off and talk all type of sh*t about that woman. I as a man can say something they do it and comment how they love working with me. It pisses me off sometimes because some of these women that get talked about are some of the best individuals to work for but other WOMEN don't give them the respect.

 

Its a big problem. I see a woman rising through the ranks some where and at the same time there are women trying to tear her down. You want the power but you can't stop the pettiness and BS that is keeping you from it.

[ThaWholigan]

I also want to quickly add that I don't think women should HAVE to understand male sexuality. The only sexuality they should try to understand is their partner's (or partners.) The sexuality of a million strangers is absolutely inconsequential. It should not be up to women to "understand" why men are giving them attention. Some stranger's sexual thoughts and desires are none of my business, and I shouldn't HAVE to understand them. No more than I would demand that strangers understand my own psychological make-up. How ridiculous is that, to assume that every woman who you find attractive should try to "understand" you??

 

I'm in 2 minds about that to be honest. I agree with you mostly though.

 

Men are always encouraged by everyone to learn more about female sexuality (as they should). As are women encouraged to learn more about their own sexuality. I think there has largely been an ignorance of female sexuality over the years and some of that still exists today. But as people are starting to discover more about female sexuality, male sexuality is slowly being made to look bad or horrible, and as a result is becoming more misunderstood. That's how I feel about it, irrational as it may sound.

 

I don't see it being a big problem in the future, but I foresee a number of confused men who don't know whether to embrace their sexual attraction to women or to repress it.

[joystickd]

I'm in 2 minds about that to be honest. I agree with you mostly though.

 

Men are always encouraged by everyone to learn more about female sexuality (as they should). As are women encouraged to learn more about their own sexuality. I think there has largely been an ignorance of female sexuality over the years and some of that still exists today. But as people are starting to discover more about female sexuality, male sexuality is slowly being made to look bad or horrible, and as a result is becoming more misunderstood. That's how I feel about it, irrational as it may sound.

 

I don't see it being a big problem in the future, but I foresee a number of confused men who don't know whether to embrace their sexual attraction to women or to repress it.

I agree with this. You have a lot of confused guys now that have some level of shame with their own sexuality. It is a little frustrating that as a man your sexuality is seen as predatory when its not.

[Lonely Ronin]

I also want to quickly add that I don't think women should HAVE to understand male sexuality. The only sexuality they should try to understand is their partner's (or partners.) The sexuality of a million strangers is absolutely inconsequential. It should not be up to women to "understand" why men are giving them attention. Some stranger's sexual thoughts and desires are none of my business, and I shouldn't HAVE to understand them. No more than I would demand that strangers understand my own psychological make-up. How ridiculous is that, to assume that every woman who you find attractive should try to "understand" you??

 

 

You do realize that a lot of posts in this thread could easily be construed to say men need to learn to understand women sexuality right?

[verhrzn]

I'm in 2 minds about that to be honest. I agree with you mostly though.

 

Men are always encouraged by everyone to learn more about female sexuality (as they should). As are women encouraged to learn more about their own sexuality. I think there has largely been an ignorance of female sexuality over the years and some of that still exists today. But as people are starting to discover more about female sexuality, male sexuality is slowly being made to look bad or horrible, and as a result is becoming more misunderstood. That's how I feel about it, irrational as it may sound.

 

I don't see it being a big problem in the future, but I foresee a number of confused men who don't know whether to embrace their sexual attraction to women or to repress it.

 

But that's the problem, men are encouraged to learn about FEMALE sexuality. As if we're all the same. As if we are just slot machines where you press Button A, pull slot B, and out pop orgasms.

 

Everyone likes different things. Even men like different things! There is no "united" gender sexuality. Our sexuality is notoriously individualist, which means that each time you approach a person of the opposite sex, you are approaching a completely new spreadsheet of things they want/give them pleasure/enjoy/get turned on by.

 

Which is why I stress that I shouldn't give a damn about "male" sexuality. Because there is no such thing. Because BELIEVING in such a thing may actually damage my romantic relationship, if my partner falls outside the "normal male" sexuality.

 

What about guys that are, straight-up, super monogamous? Not just in terms of sexual partners, but that they don't feel the urge to objectify women? If I walked into that relationship assuming that his sexuality is exactly like "male sexuality," I would be denying what his sexual interests actually are.

 

I have no problem with an individual man "objectifying" his female partner, if that's what she is into. Objectify away! Embrace that connection.

 

What I DO have a problem with is a male stranger objectifying the females around him. Why does he have the right to do this? Why does it override the feelings of the females around him, who maybe don't WANT to be objectified?

 

By painting objectifying as "boys will be boys," we excuse it and rationalize it. We normalize oggling, when not all guys will oggle, and not all women will enjoy being oggled.

 

Maybe instead of "censoring" yourself, you instead limit your objectification to environments where you know it will be welcome. For example, with your partner. That way, you get to express that side of your sexuality WITHOUT making the people around you uncomfortable. It's considerate, and it's mature.

[xxoo]

Personally I'd be Ok with it. Not because that's what I want, but because I would be more skilled at spotting it, and thus better prepared to handle the issue.

 

You don't know until you've been in those shoes. That's true for both men and women.

 

Women complain because men are always lusting for them. Would we truly rather men not lust for us? I sure wouldn't

 

Men complain because women don't lust for them enough Would you truly rather women lust for you at the expense of your career? Probably not, if it were to actually happen.

[ThaWholigan]

I agree with this. You have a lot of confused guys now that have some level of shame with their own sexuality. It is a little frustrating that as a man your sexuality is seen as predatory when its not.

You used the correct word there, and this is quite possibly the premise for me creating the entire thread:

 

Shame

 

I think a lot of men read things like this and feel shame. For whatever reason, they do. I can deal with a feeling such as that and still have some semblance of confidence in my sexuality because I have dealt with these feelings before. I credit internal characteristics that I have cultivated over the years. Many men haven't spent as much time doing that, and will not know how to deal with the shame.

 

It is not the intention of, what I feel comfortable to say, the majority of men to make women feel uncomfortable. On the few occasions I have been accused of "viewing women as sexual objects", I remember once impulsively retorting, "I don't view women as sexual 'objects', I view them as sexual 'beings' like me". I think I was 21 at the time. Needless to say it didn't go down well, but I was determined not to feel ashamed like I had been for many years before AND after.

 

I don't really know what would be a happy medium - do we merely quietly acknowledge and slope away? Regarding professional situations, I agree there should be a level of professionalism, and I consider myself to be professional enough that I can deal with any sexual feelings I have appropriately while taking on board any other attribute, as I have been able to do in many non-sexually charged environments with women. It's not alien to me.

[xxoo]

What I DO have a problem with is a male stranger objectifying the females around him. Why does he have the right to do this? Why does it override the feelings of the females around him, who maybe don't WANT to be objectified?

 

What exactly do you mean by "objectify"?

 

Can a man feel lust, and even express admiration, without objectification?

[verhrzn]

I agree with this. You have a lot of confused guys now that have some level of shame with their own sexuality. It is a little frustrating that as a man your sexuality is seen as predatory when its not.

 

What they should be learning is to feel neither shame NOR excuse themselves just because of their sexuality. A guy groping me on the train is NEVER appropriate, even if it's what his "sexuality" requires.

 

What these guys need to learn are appropriate avenues for their sexuality. Boundaries, issues of consent, respect for another person's feelings... all necessary things for any relationship, sexual, romantic, platonic, or otherwise.

 

I am not saying guys should be ashamed of their sexuality. I am saying they should learn to channel it in respectful ways. I think of my burlesque shows; people come to oggle and be entertained! They whistle, and clap, and shout compliments. That is the perfect avenue to "objectify" women, because it's a socially agreed upon space. Doing the exact same behavior, on the street to a stranger, would NOT be okay, because the parties (the man whistling, the woman being objectifying) have not reached a mutual agreement that this is appropriate.

[joystickd]

But that's the problem, men are encouraged to learn about FEMALE sexuality. As if we're all the same. As if we are just slot machines where you press Button A, pull slot B, and out pop orgasms.

 

Everyone likes different things. Even men like different things! There is no "united" gender sexuality. Our sexuality is notoriously individualist, which means that each time you approach a person of the opposite sex, you are approaching a completely new spreadsheet of things they want/give them pleasure/enjoy/get turned on by.

 

Which is why I stress that I shouldn't give a damn about "male" sexuality. Because there is no such thing. Because BELIEVING in such a thing may actually damage my romantic relationship, if my partner falls outside the "normal male" sexuality.

 

What about guys that are, straight-up, super monogamous? Not just in terms of sexual partners, but that they don't feel the urge to objectify women? If I walked into that relationship assuming that his sexuality is exactly like "male sexuality," I would be denying what his sexual interests actually are.

 

I have no problem with an individual man "objectifying" his female partner, if that's what she is into. Objectify away! Embrace that connection.

 

What I DO have a problem with is a male stranger objectifying the females around him. Why does he have the right to do this? Why does it override the feelings of the females around him, who maybe don't WANT to be objectified?

 

By painting objectifying as "boys will be boys," we excuse it and rationalize it. We normalize oggling, when not all guys will oggle, and not all women will enjoy being oggled.

 

Maybe instead of "censoring" yourself, you instead limit your objectification to environments where you know it will be welcome. For example, with your partner. That way, you get to express that side of your sexuality WITHOUT making the people around you uncomfortable. It's considerate, and it's mature.

I bold that statement because I partially agree with it. Women also have to check their own gender for this too. Guys talk about women and there are women that giggle like school girls liking that. Nothing can change when there are women that like it. Its like women that complain about men pushing for sex and its usually because at some point they have met women that dropped the panties quick. Issues like this are not a man only or woman only issue. The blame usually is on both sides. The people that do it and the enablers.

[joystickd]

What they should be learning is to feel neither shame NOR excuse themselves just because of their sexuality. A guy groping me on the train is NEVER appropriate, even if it's what his "sexuality" requires.

 

What these guys need to learn are appropriate avenues for their sexuality. Boundaries, issues of consent, respect for another person's feelings... all necessary things for any relationship, sexual, romantic, platonic, or otherwise.

 

I am not saying guys should be ashamed of their sexuality. I am saying they should learn to channel it in respectful ways. I think of my burlesque shows; people come to oggle and be entertained! They whistle, and clap, and shout compliments. That is the perfect avenue to "objectify" women, because it's a socially agreed upon space. Doing the exact same behavior, on the street to a stranger, would NOT be okay, because the parties (the man whistling, the woman being objectifying) have not reached a mutual agreement that this is appropriate.

This is the problem usually its not the extreme like groping. Most of the time it is the normal things men do. Even a simple you look nice today get contempt these days sometimes because of this perception by women that every man is trying to get in their pants.

[verhrzn]

What exactly do you mean by "objectify"?

 

Can a man feel lust, and even express admiration, without objectification?

 

If they keep it between their ears, I will never know, and thus probably never care. If they keep it to locker room chatter, I will roll my eyes and consider it kind of juvenile, but I don't see that as objectifying.

 

I think "mixed company" kind of does sum it up. Mixed company, public places, are not the places to express lust to someone who has not previously consented to it. If the person has consented to it (there has been flirtation, initiation of conversation, etc.) hey, admire away.

 

So if a man wants to objectify a woman out loud, he should make sure it's okay with her first. In between his ears, or alone with his buddies (in other words, in private) I'm not sure I dig it, but he is completely within his rights and breaking no boundaries.

[ThaWholigan]

But that's the problem, men are encouraged to learn about FEMALE sexuality. As if we're all the same. As if we are just slot machines where you press Button A, pull slot B, and out pop orgasms.

 

Everyone likes different things. Even men like different things! There is no "united" gender sexuality. Our sexuality is notoriously individualist, which means that each time you approach a person of the opposite sex, you are approaching a completely new spreadsheet of things they want/give them pleasure/enjoy/get turned on by.

 

Which is why I stress that I shouldn't give a damn about "male" sexuality. Because there is no such thing. Because BELIEVING in such a thing may actually damage my romantic relationship, if my partner falls outside the "normal male" sexuality.

 

What about guys that are, straight-up, super monogamous? Not just in terms of sexual partners, but that they don't feel the urge to objectify women? If I walked into that relationship assuming that his sexuality is exactly like "male sexuality," I would be denying what his sexual interests actually are.

 

I have no problem with an individual man "objectifying" his female partner, if that's what she is into. Objectify away! Embrace that connection.

 

What I DO have a problem with is a male stranger objectifying the females around him. Why does he have the right to do this? Why does it override the feelings of the females around him, who maybe don't WANT to be objectified?

 

By painting objectifying as "boys will be boys," we excuse it and rationalize it. We normalize oggling, when not all guys will oggle, and not all women will enjoy being oggled.

 

Maybe instead of "censoring" yourself, you instead limit your objectification to environments where you know it will be welcome. For example, with your partner. That way, you get to express that side of your sexuality WITHOUT making the people around you uncomfortable. It's considerate, and it's mature.

Fair point. Everyone DOES have individual idiosyncrasies especially with regards to their sexuality - I of all people should know that .

 

Regarding your last comment - it is to be remembered that I do not, nor will I in the near future, have a partner (unfortunately). I have my creative outlets as a channel.

[Lonely Ronin]

Men complain because women don't lust for them enough Would you truly rather women lust for you at the expense of your career? Probably not, if it were to actually happen.

 

Well, I'm kind of a bull in a china shop some times, so when I say no, people usually listen.

[Lonely Ronin]

What they should be learning is to feel neither shame NOR excuse themselves just because of their sexuality. A guy groping me on the train is NEVER appropriate, even if it's what his "sexuality" requires.

 

Sexual Harassment

[joystickd]

You used the correct word there, and this is quite possibly the premise for me creating the entire thread:

 

Shame

 

I think a lot of men read things like this and feel shame. For whatever reason, they do. I can deal with a feeling such as that and still have some semblance of confidence in my sexuality because I have dealt with these feelings before. I credit internal characteristics that I have cultivated over the years. Many men haven't spent as much time doing that, and will not know how to deal with the shame.

 

It is not the intention of, what I feel comfortable to say, the majority of men to make women feel uncomfortable. On the few occasions I have been accused of "viewing women as sexual objects", I remember once impulsively retorting, "I don't view women as sexual 'objects', I view them as sexual 'beings' like me". I think I was 21 at the time. Needless to say it didn't go down well, but I was determined not to feel ashamed like I had been for many years before AND after.

 

I don't really know what would be a happy medium - do we merely quietly acknowledge and slope away? Regarding professional situations, I agree there should be a level of professionalism, and I consider myself to be professional enough that I can deal with any sexual feelings I have appropriately while taking on board any other attribute, as I have been able to do in many non-sexually charged environments with women. It's not alien to me.

At the end of the day the shame is misplaced because initially there has to be something physically attractive about the person for you to even want to pursue more. In this sense we all objectify. Do you go up to someone at say "Hi I just noticed you and need to ask you a few question so I will see if you are a prospective partner I can go on a date with"? On the deepest level objectifying is our animalistic urges. Do you see female deer like male deer because of anything other than having big antlers? On a deep level that initially gets a person in the game. You just have to accept that as a part of life.