Fornication.

[Titanwolf]

Help me out here, I never quite understood this when I was a Catholic (still follow most religions and their teachings for the sake of knowledge though). Ok, sex in itself isn't a sin. Masturbation isn't a sin in itself either. However, sex before marriage (fornication) and masturbation in the presence of porn are seen as sinful acts no?. Why is it that this aspect of the teachings are often ignored, or brushed aside?. When I used to go to Church, I would see people there who regularly attended, but also regularly engaged in acts that they're supposed to be against. The bible cannot be re-written (though I question the authenticity as a whole) and thus, though the times change, the teachings do not no?. Help me out here, for the sake of closure.

 

I mean no offence to anyone. If I have said something that offends, it's because of my ignorance.

[Balzac]

I think masturbation during marriage is technically considered sin. No idea about single status masturbation.

[TheFinalWord]

Ok, sex in itself isn't a sin. Masturbation isn't a sin in itself either. However, sex before marriage (fornication) and masturbation in the presence of porn are seen as sinful acts no?. Why is it that this aspect of the teachings are often ignored, or brushed aside?. When I used to go to Church, I would see people there who regularly attended, but also regularly engaged in acts that they're supposed to be against. The bible cannot be re-written (though I question the authenticity as a whole) and thus, though the times change, the teachings do not no?. Help me out here, for the sake of closure.

 

I mean no offence to anyone. If I have said something that offends, it's because of my ignorance.

 

No offense to me at all. I guess it depends on the church, I suppose. I have heard it discussed a lot, but a lot of churches don't like to call out sin b/c they do not like to offend anyone (PC). Still others, use the hellfire and brimstone approach which isn't exactly edifying either Thankfully, a lot of more Christian men are standing up and taking leadership.

 

 

Masturbation is not a sin Mark Driscoll - YouTube

 

Yes, you are right, a lot of people go to church and read the bible, and do not change or adhere to the teachings.

 

"Be doers of the word and not only hearers and thus deceiving yourselves. If anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks closely at his face in a mirror, walks away, and forgets what he looks like. Instead be one that looks into the Word, and does not just hear but also does." James 1 paraphrase

 

All we can do is continue to present truth and if they ignore it than they ignore it. That's their right. If they are receptive to godly correction and are still working on a sin (we all have our "thorn(s) in the flesh"), we as a body need to bolster fellow brothers and sisters instead of condemning them.

[BetheButterfly]

Help me out here, I never quite understood this when I was a Catholic (still follow most religions and their teachings for the sake of knowledge though). Ok, sex in itself isn't a sin.

 

Nope, sex in itself is awesome!!! and a blessing and a wonderful pleasurable activity and the special way to connect with one's life partner and the amazing way to produce babies!!!

 

Masturbation isn't a sin in itself either.

 

I disagree with that, cause Jesus says not to lust. (Matthew 5:28)

 

However, sex before marriage (fornication) and masturbation in the presence of porn are seen as sinful acts no?.

 

Yes.

 

Why is it that this aspect of the teachings are often ignored, or brushed aside?.

 

I think it's because people don't tend to like that teaching.

 

When I used to go to Church, I would see people there who regularly attended, but also regularly engaged in acts that they're supposed to be against. The bible cannot be re-written (though I question the authenticity as a whole) and thus, though the times change, the teachings do not no?. Help me out here, for the sake of closure.

 

I mean no offence to anyone. If I have said something that offends, it's because of my ignorance.

 

I'm Protestant but this happens in many Protestant churches too. I think one of the issues is that in many cultures, sex is such a strong lure that many people go outside of God's plan for sex.

 

Not having sex until marriage and then only having sex with one's marriage partner requires self control and faith in God, as well as sacrificing desires that go outside of that.

[BetheButterfly]

 

Masturbation is not a sin Mark Driscoll - YouTube

 

 

He has a good point that lust is a sin and masturbation and lust are connected.

 

Is it possible to masturbate without lust? That's a good question.

 

About husband and wife, that's not sin and desire for one another sexually is just that: desire, not so much lust.

 

He's a hilarious speaker!!!

[quankanne]

Why is it that this aspect of the teachings are often ignored, or brushed aside? because people would rather not face up to the fact that it *is* sin ... you know, "if it feels good and it makes me happy, then surely it's not a bad thing, right? Because I'm not really hurting anyone ..."

[ThaWholigan]

As far as I remember both masturbation and fornication are considered to be a sin outside of marriage - in Islam, I remember masturbation is a sin in and outside of marriage full-stop, only sex with your wife. They were a little more detailed about what you could and couldn't do sexually.

 

Islam also had a masturbation alternative if a man was struggling to contain his lust for sex yet didn't have a wife - FASTING!

 

If you fast, you will not feed your sexual energy enough to bother masturbating, goes the theory.

[Titanwolf]

Yeah I thought that may be the reason. That the grip of sex and such was/is just too powerful for people to ignore, consistently at least. I don't really know what to say, because they break the laws of their teachings regularly and I'm sure that it's gotten to a point where the people don't even pray for forgiveness any more. What's the point of being part of a Religion when you act like that?. Then again, I read somewhere that we are judged on the principles we grew up with and that a non-believer would be judged differently to a believer. Who knows? *shrugs*. I just wanted to find out if that rule still remained and if people were just picking and choosing what to follow.

[Titanwolf]

As far as I remember both masturbation and fornication are considered to be a sin outside of marriage - in Islam, I remember masturbation is a sin in and outside of marriage full-stop, only sex with your wife. They were a little more detailed about what you could and couldn't do sexually.

 

Islam also had a masturbation alternative if a man was struggling to contain his lust for sex yet didn't have a wife - FASTING!

 

If you fast, you will not feed your sexual energy enough to bother masturbating, goes the theory.

 

lol sounds harsh man. I've fasted, but it wasn't to curb sexual desire. It was more for mental clarity and discipline of my own volition.

[TheFinalWord]

He has a good point that lust is a sin and masturbation and lust are connected.

 

Is it possible to masturbate without lust? That's a good question.

 

About husband and wife, that's not sin and desire for one another sexually is just that: desire, not so much lust.

 

He's a hilarious speaker!!!

 

Yeah, he teaches that in marriage it's all good

 

That's mark driscoll, that's not a normal sermon lol He has a weekly session where people can text in questions they are too embarrassed to ask. I'm glad to see some pastors answering the questions young guys have. Mark mainly minsters to men, which is desperately needed.

 

He's kind of in the same camp as Francis Chan and Mark Chandler.

 

Video from Chan kinda goes along with this thread.

 

 

His book, Crazy Love, is really good. Highly recommended for any Christian:

 

Crazy Love: Overwhelmed by a Relentless God: Francis Chan,Danae Yankoski,Chris Tomlin: 9781434768513: Amazon.com: Books

[ThaWholigan]

Yeah I thought that may be the reason. That the grip of sex and such was/is just too powerful for people to ignore, consistently at least. I don't really know what to say, because they break the laws of their teachings regularly and I'm sure that it's gotten to a point where the people don't even pray for forgiveness any more. What's the point of being part of a Religion when you act like that?. Then again, I read somewhere that we are judged on the principles we grew up with and that a non-believer would be judged differently to a believer. Who knows? *shrugs*. I just wanted to find out if that rule still remained and if people were just picking and choosing what to follow.

The solution for a lot of people was the shotgun wedding, if they couldn't wait. Obviously now that is a bad idea.

[mercy]

When I used to go to Church, I would see people there who regularly attended, but also regularly engaged in acts that they're supposed to be against.

 

That's why we're there. We seek forgiveness.

[Titanwolf]

The simple answer is: no one is perfect. We all sin, and we all do things that are against God's Word.

 

Luckily, God's grace and love for us is so incomprehensibly massive and good that He can forgive us our shortcomings, and failures. Jesus forgave the prostitute because of her faith.

 

I understand that, but humour me for a moment. Isn't it worse to KNOW what you're doing conflicts with your beliefs?. I mean, we know the story of the prostitute and we know WHY Jesus died for you. You're* aware of the teachings and consciously acknowledge them every time you have or, are about to have sex with someone outside wedlock, but you* still do it?. To me, that's the equivalent of sticking your hand in a blender. You know what will happen and you're* aware of the consequences, but you do it anyway? . That part eludes me. May as well say, "I know I fail and will continue to fail, but I'll just go to Church and it'll all be gravy". I don't understand such a weak resolve to your* religion.

 

*You're/your/you- in the general sense. Not personalized.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Titanwolf

[taiko]

Help me out here, I never quite understood this when I was a Catholic (still follow most religions and their teachings for the sake of knowledge though). Ok, sex in itself isn't a sin. Masturbation isn't a sin in itself either. However, sex before marriage (fornication) and masturbation in the presence of porn are seen as sinful acts no?. Why is it that this aspect of the teachings are often ignored, or brushed aside?. .

I think you miss interpreted Catholic teaching on the subject. All sexual acts must end with the husband trying to ejaculate into his wife's unprotected vagina. Everything else is a sin. masturbation is foreplay for that specific encounter It is a more nuanced view of some Protestants that lust and/or the presence of porn as an aid are what make the act sinful. But they would not hold that masturbation or spilling the seed anywhere but their wife's vagina is a sin in itself. Since withdrawal is the only biblical example of birth control, however Catholics consider it a mortal sin along with artificial birth control,

[skydiveaddict]

Masturbation isn't a sin in itself either.

 

That's incorrect. Masturbation is a sin.

[Titanwolf]

That's incorrect. Masturbation is a sin.

 

I was taught that it isn't a sin. It only becomes one in the presence of lust.

[Titanwolf]

I think you miss interpreted Catholic teaching on the subject. All sexual acts must end with the husband trying to ejaculate into his wife's unprotected vagina. Everything else is a sin. masturbation is foreplay for that specific encounter It is a more nuanced view of some Protestants that lust and/or the presence of porn as an aid are what make the act sinful. But they would not hold that masturbation or spilling the seed anywhere but their wife's vagina is a sin in itself. Since withdrawal is the only biblical example of birth control, however Catholics consider it a mortal sin along with artificial birth control,

 

That's very interesting. It's likely that it's only the extreme minority of Catholics who practice this, and the ones I know don't. Not a single one. I think the times have changed to the point where it's meaningless. Though I don't think it had much truth to it in the first place.

[Robert Z]

There was a time when I was screwed up enough to masturbate without "evil thoughts". Yes, it is possible. So glad I'm beyond all of that nonsense now!

 

Laying all of that guilt on kids for something so completely natural is just sickening to me. It is sick, sick, sick!!!

[TaraMaiden]

I will tell you how it is with me:

This was one of the things that just made me somewhat distant from so-called 'moral Catholic teachings': Nobody could agree on what was right, wrong, forgiveable, unforgivable, justified or sinful.

It was all down to personal bias, interpretation and point of view...from what I could tell, anyway...

The nuns at school told us one thing, the priests told us another, the teachers told us yet something else.

Biology lessons were a blast, I'm sure we put that woman on the 'uncomfortable spot' more than once....she must have been so relieved to finally close the subject on Reproduction....

 

In the specific practice I follow (and as such, you must understand this is just from my perspective, therefore), there is no concept of sin, redemption, forgiveness, pardon or bad/wrong, with regard to this specific topic, other than "make sure that whatever decision you make, does not harm you physically or morally, and equally respects the dignity and will of those participating with you."

In other words, if it feels good, and there's no force or coercion, emotionally or physically, then don't worry.

if it in any way compromises your personal values, morals and ethics, and might put someone else into a corner, then don't do it.

 

Simple.

[BetheButterfly]

That's incorrect. Masturbation is a sin.

 

I used to think so too, though it is true that masturbation isn't mentioned in the Bible to be sin. However, lust is mentioned as sin. So, if one can masturbate without lusting, I suppose that's ok. However, for many people, lust is what fuels the desire and pleasure in masturbation. I would think it'd be very difficult to masturbate without lust, unless one is masturbating with desire for one's husband or wife.

 

Because masturbation isn't brought up in the Bible, yet lust is, for people who believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and want to obey His guidelines, it's important to control one's mind in not lusting.

 

I love this quote from Job!!!

 

Job 31 (I boldened some.)

Job 31 NIV -

 

“I made a covenant with my eyes

not to look lustfully at a young woman.

2 For what is our lot from God above,

our heritage from the Almighty on high?

3 Is it not ruin for the wicked,

disaster for those who do wrong?

4 Does he not see my ways

and count my every step?"

 

That can be difficult to do, and isn't just for men. It's for women too. For example, as a happily married lady, it is my responsibility to control my eyes and brain and not lust after any other man, but only desire my husband!

 

To me however, that is a joy because I am so grateful to God for my wonderful husband and know the connection we have is powerful and real. To me, sacrificing lusting after anyone else is worth it!!!

[taiko]

I used to think so too, though it is true that masturbation isn't mentioned in the Bible to be sin. However, lust is mentioned as sin. So, if one can masturbate without lusting, I suppose that's ok. However, for many people, lust is what fuels the desire and pleasure in masturbation. I would think it'd be very difficult to masturbate without lust, unless one is masturbating with desire for one's husband or wife.

 

Because masturbation isn't brought up in the Bible, yet lust is, for people who believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and want to obey His guidelines, it's important to control one's mind in not lusting.

 

I love this quote from Job!!!

 

Job 31 (I boldened some.)

Job 31 NIV -

 

“I made a covenant with my eyes

not to look lustfully at a young woman.

2 For what is our lot from God above,

our heritage from the Almighty on high?

3 Is it not ruin for the wicked,

disaster for those who do wrong?

4 Does he not see my ways

and count my every step?"

 

That can be difficult to do, and isn't just for men. It's for women too. For example, as a happily married lady, it is my responsibility to control my eyes and brain and not lust after any other man, but only desire my husband!

 

To me however, that is a joy because I am so grateful to God for my wonderful husband and know the connection we have is powerful and real. To me, sacrificing lusting after anyone else is worth it!!!

However the OP came from a Catholic perspective where what is in the Bible or what the average person does is not the last word but rather what the "infailable Pope and teaching body" of the official church says about the subject

[mercy]

Help me out here, I never quite understood this when I was a Catholic (still follow most religions and their teachings for the sake of knowledge though). Ok, sex in itself isn't a sin. Masturbation isn't a sin in itself either. However, sex before marriage (fornication) and masturbation in the presence of porn are seen as sinful acts no?. Why is it that this aspect of the teachings are often ignored, or brushed aside?. When I used to go to Church, I would see people there who regularly attended, but also regularly engaged in acts that they're supposed to be against. The bible cannot be re-written (though I question the authenticity as a whole) and thus, though the times change, the teachings do not no?. Help me out here, for the sake of closure.

 

I mean no offence to anyone. If I have said something that offends, it's because of my ignorance.

 

If you feel what you are doing is wrong, if it's been laid on your heart that it isn't right, if you feel shame, then it's a sin. What others constituent as a sin has nothing to do with you. We serve a living God. He speaks to you. He speaks through you to reach others, not to point out what another is doing wrong. It says if another believes something is wrong don't do that thing in front of him lest you tempt him.

 

If the church you are in doesn't resonate with you find a new church. One that speaks to your heart.

[BetheButterfly]

If you feel what you are doing is wrong, if it's been laid on your heart that it isn't right, if you feel shame, then it's a sin. What others constituent as a sin has nothing to do with you. We serve a living God. He speaks to you. He speaks through you to reach others, not to point out what another is doing wrong. It says if another believes something is wrong don't do that thing in front of him lest you tempt him.

 

If the church you are in doesn't resonate with you find a new church. One that speaks to your heart.

 

I agree.

 

My Muslim friends, Jewish friends who believe in G-d, and Messianic Jewish friends all believe it is wrong to eat pork. Now, I personally believe it's ok because I believe Jesus "made" all foods clean, though I personally would rather be a vegetarian anyways. However, I'm not going to disrespect them by inviting them to dinner and deliberately setting in front of them what they believe is wrong for them to eat. That would be rude and intolerant and unloving. I personally believe that God outlawed pork a long time ago because probably many people were getting sick if it was not cooked well... same thing for shrimp. However, nowadays people generally cook them much better. That does not negate though that other people believe it is wrong to eat them. Again, I would prefer all people and animals to be vegetarian, which is what I think was God's ideal before things changed.

 

Likewise, I have family who believe drinking any alcohol is wrong (like some Muslims believe) and I do not go brag to them about how my husband and I believe it's ok to drink within reason (not becoming an alcoholic though) and enjoyed a bottle of wine on our first year anniversary. That would be disrespectful to them. Now, if they ask, I won't lie but I also respect what they believe and why. One reason why my Dad's Dad, for example, believe alcohol intake is wrong is because his 2 older brothers died in a car accident caused by a drunk driver. The reason my Papaw (Mom's Dad) thinks it's wrong is because his dad was an alcoholic who used to beat up his Mom and brothers, waste money in bars, and my Papaw always had to go and fish him out of the bar. There are reasons why people think things...

[TaraMaiden]

(over millennia we have evolved, in our facial physiognomy, due to our gradual change in diet. We used to eat far more vegetables than meat, purely and simply because catching vegetables was less time consuming and energetic....

 

Also, 'vegetation' of old was far tougher and more fibrous, and initially, we used to eat it raw, so our jaws were stronger and more pronounced.

A lot of the vegetable we buy in modern times, started life far more differently in colour, texture, size and composition, than we know them today.

Furthermore, as farming became commonplace, and meat became more available, due to raising livestock, over time, our jaw structure and dentition changed.

 

Pork is considered to be 'unclean' meat, due to the way pigs are raised and what they eat.

Pork, badly kept, cooked or prepared, still presents an incredibly high risk.

It can be more dangerous than raw chicken.

But having spoken to Muslims, pork meat is not entirely forbidden to them. If they are starving and have no other choice but to kill a wild pig and eat it, then that's acceptable....

 

The taboo of eating certain foods was an introduced religious caveat, not a God-given one.

And logically, it made sense.

When you consider that the majority of Theist religions originated in hot countries, with few means of refrigeration, logic played a big part.

[BetheButterfly]

All of this is complete assumption and that is not what the bible says. It says plain and simple dont eat those things. People have had the ability to cook food well done since they have been using fire to cook. Also people still against certain precaution eat thier food whatever way they want. Raw, barely cooked or even well done. So that really makes no sense at all. Also food was alot healthier back before our modern world started messing with it. Hormones, preservatives, chemicals and alot of other things. As for all animals being vegetarian that also makes no sense. Animals, humans included have teeth to suit what they eat.

 

teeth

 

Your not going to find a shark able to survive on eating plants and just the oposite. Animals are suited to eat exactly what they eat and that how thier digestive systems work for them. I believe its because of evolution, you believe god created every animal. But if thats true than he gave carnivores canines and inscisors not for eating plants but to do exactly what they do, stab and tear flesh. There are animals that are omnivorous but they have the best of both worlds. Like humans.

 

Sorry. I just realized I accidentally moved the topic of the thread to another topic...

 

Here, I'll start another thread and answer your reply, k? I'll title it "Food and the Bible."