Fornication.

[I'm nuts]

That reminds me. I read during my research, that "hell" is simply a separation from God.

 

Isn't hell just a man made fantasy to keep followers in check? Does the word hell really exist or is it man made?

[mercy]

That reminds me. I read during my research, that "hell" is simply a separation from God, not the fiery inferno that it's portrayed to be. If that is indeed correct, why would it need to be transformed into something that can only, ultimately, bring fear amongst "believers"?.

 

At least here I get educated answers though. When I come across someone preaching to me in real life, no one seems to know the answers to my questions.

 

I'm not a good one to ask about heaven or hell, I don't concern myself with either.

 

Though at times I do look forward to the day that there is no more pain. And I could spend eternity at the feet of God.

 

The here and now matters to me, seeking God brings me joy!

[taiko]

Isn't hell just a man made fantasy to keep followers in check? Does the word hell really exist or is it man made?

Yes the word really exist, the concept is what is debatable, is the ideal poetic like the dreams in the book of Revelation or is it an accurate description of life without God. Since many live without God and do not experience the pain described I would vote for a poetic description. If you have an English translation of the Bible the word will read Hell instead of Sheol or Hades in most translations.

[loveunlimited]

Jean Paul Sartre said that hell is other people.

other people say war is hell.

I'm inclined to believe that some people live through hell every day.

heaven - and hell - are what you make it.

[TheFinalWord]

That reminds me. I read during my research, that "hell" is simply a separation from God, not the fiery inferno that it's portrayed to be. If that is indeed correct, why would it need to be transformed into something that can only, ultimately, bring fear amongst "believers"?.

 

At least here I get educated answers though. When I come across someone preaching to me in real life, no one seems to know the answers to my questions.

 

Good question. In the Greek, Gehenna and Hades are two different concepts, but are often both often translated as hell in the King James Version. In a hurry now, but here are some good places to start if you want to study these concepts.

 

Blue Letter Bible - Dictionaries

 

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for KJV

 

In a nutshell, Hades is similar to a prison, a local holding place. Gehenna is similar to a prison, a final holding place.

 

Where does that concept come from? Revelation 20:

 

"The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

 

Christ preached more about Gehenna than any one else.

 

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

 

(scroll down that page to see all the verses attributed to Gehenna and Christ)

 

He likened Gehenna to the fiery trash pits that were based in the valley of Hinnom in southern Israel. As you can probably guess, they didn't quite have the sanitation we have today

 

It was also the place in which Israel participated in child sacrifice when they began to imitate the pagan nations,

 

"This is what the Lord says: “Go and buy a clay jar from a potter. Take along some of the elders of the people and of the priests 2 and go out to the Valley of Ben Hinnom, near the entrance of the Potsherd Gate. There proclaim the words I tell you, 3 and say, ‘Hear the word of the Lord, you kings of Judah and people of Jerusalem. This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Listen! I am going to bring a disaster on this place that will make the ears of everyone who hears of it tingle. 4 For they have forsaken me and made this a place of foreign gods; they have burned incense in it to gods that neither they nor their ancestors nor the kings of Judah ever knew, and they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent. 5 They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.6 So beware, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when people will no longer call this place Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter."

 

We can dispute whether or not it is literally a place of fire (I think it is clear from Revelation 20 that it is), but the way it is described is that separation from God is worse than any pain mankind can conceive. Even those that currently reject God are experiencing His common Grace.

[I'm nuts]

Yes the word really exist, the concept is what is debatable, is the ideal poetic like the dreams in the book of Revelation or is it an accurate description of life without God. Since many live without God and do not experience the pain described I would vote for a poetic description. If you have an English translation of the Bible the word will read Hell instead of Sheol or Hades in most translations.

 

I thought hades or sheol meant grave, a place of the dead, so where does the idea of hell come from, you know eternal torment of fire? I see no correlation between hell and hades.

[I'm nuts]

Good question. In the Greek, Gehenna and Hades are two different concepts, but are often both often translated as hell in the King James Version. In a hurry now, but here are some good places to start if you want to study these concepts.

 

Blue Letter Bible - Dictionaries

 

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for KJV

 

In a nutshell, Hades is similar to a prison, a local holding place. Gehenna is similar to a prison, a final holding place.

 

Where does that concept come from? Revelation 20:

 

"The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

 

.

What is the book of life? Whose names are in it? when is this judgement, is it taking place now, has it taken place, or is it something for the future? How can you die twice? So even if you got sent to hades you can still get out?

[taiko]

I thought hades or sheol meant grave' date=' a place of the dead, so where does the idea of hell come from, you know eternal torment of fire? I see no correlation between hell and hades.[/quote']

You do understand that volumes of commentary and interpretation has been written on the subject by Jews, Christians and other interested parties. Certainly more then a recovering monger on a relationship website can provide you with

[I'm nuts]

You do understand that volumes of commentary and interpretation has been written on the subject by Jews, Christians and other interested parties. Certainly more then a recovering monger on a relationship website can provide you with

 

Yes your right, I am not understanding where the idea of hell comes from, I just can't grasp this idea of a fiery torment, who made it, was it God or Satan, if God made it I thought he was a God of love yet he made a place of fiery torment, seems contradictory to me.

[TheFinalWord]

What is the book of life? Whose names are in it? when is this judgement' date=' is it taking place now, has it taken place, or is it something for the future? How can you die twice? So even if you got sent to hades you can still get out?[/quote']

 

1) Good study on book of life:

Revelation - Appendix 6: The Book of Life | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site

 

2) Anyone that accepts Christ as Lord and Savior

 

3) Final judgment will take place at the end of the dispensation of Grace (the time allotted in which God has allowed man to accept Christ: no one knows when that will end)

 

Blue Letter Bible - Help, Tutorials, and FAQs

 

4) There are two types of death in the bible. First death is death of the physical body, second death is spiritual death.

 

5) The first death is unavoidable. The second death is a choice.

 

6) Once in Hades no one can get out. This life is the only opportunity we have to accept Christ. Unpopular doctrine, but stated multiple times in many ways in the bible:

 

"And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." -- Hebrews 9:27 & 28

 

"I just can't grasp this idea of a fiery torment, who made it, was it God or Satan, if God made it I thought he was a God of love yet he made a place of fiery torment, seems contradictory to me. "

 

No problem many people can't. God made this abode of eternal separation for satan and his angels (Matt. 25:41), the Lord is a God of love and equally a God of wrath (John 3:16-18). Many people only like to focus on one or the other, but God's nature is comprised of both. We were made in God's image, and we also intrinsically understand compassion and justice; however, we are tainted by sin, God is not. His love and his justice are perfect. These are hard concepts to grasp, I understand. Keep seeking God and he will show you.

[Titanwolf]

We were made in God's image, and we also intrinsically understand compassion and justice; however, we are tainted by sin, God is not. His love and his justice are perfect

This right here doesn't sit well with me. He made us, only to punish us for eternity?. That almost makes me angry, that someone, or rather something would be cruel enough to create something only to have it suffer for the rest of it's existence. There's a lot of inconsistencies with God's behaviour portrayed in the bible. Parts even give him emotions, negative emotions. Why waste his time, why waste mine? what is the point in life?. Religion is actually beginning to grate on me now, because every time I hear "God loves you, even after he sends you to hell" and all this and that about God's image and whatever else, a whole plethora of questions pop up in my mind. Questions that no one on Earth has the answer to. Why waste my time creating me, only to send me to hell later? what a cruel and sadistic thing to do...

 

Anyway, if anyone has anything else to add, I'll be happy to read it and perhaps comment. At the present, I fear that I'll say something I'll regret later.

[TheFinalWord]

This right here doesn't sit well with me. He made us, only to punish us for eternity?. That almost makes me angry, that someone, or rather something would be cruel enough to create something only to have it suffer for the rest of it's existence. There's a lot of inconsistencies with God's behaviour portrayed in the bible. Parts even give him emotions, negative emotions. Why waste his time, why waste mine? what is the point in life?. Religion is actually beginning to grate on me now, because every time I hear "God loves you, even after he sends you to hell" and all this and that about God's image and whatever else, a whole plethora of questions pop up in my mind. Questions that no one on Earth has the answer to. Why waste my time creating me, only to send me to hell later? what a cruel and sadistic thing to do...

 

Anyway, if anyone has anything else to add, I'll be happy to read it and perhaps comment. At the present, I fear that I'll say something I'll regret later.

 

Well, I'm glad it invoked questions in your mind. I would encourage you to study those questions. In order to understand stumbling block issues like hell, I have found the best way is to ask God to show you, research all those links I gave, and study as much as you can. Lots of good books on this topic, i will be happy to PM you if you are interested. Most importantly, be open to the possibility that His ways are not necessarily our ways.

 

The point of life is to serve God. Only God can reveal your specific part of His plan, if you allow Him. Yes, God's judgement makes a lot of people angry, it's why they killed Christ, Paul, Stephen, etc. And I don't mean to make you angry, but it's the message that does it and hopefully not me. I would only tell you that the message of Christ is at natural enmity with our carnal mind. What you are feeling is a total natural repulsion. Those feelings make you uneasy, I'm sure. I know it did me for a long time. It's not my job to persuade you, or beat you over the head with it Just give you the message and encourage you to study, study, study, and seek God. I agree 100% with Warren here:

 

Edited September 24, 2012 by TheFinalWord

[BetheButterfly]

the Lord is a God of love and equally a God of wrath (John 3:16-18). Many people only like to focus on one or the other, but God's nature is comprised of both. We were made in God's image, and we also intrinsically understand compassion and justice; however, we are tainted by sin, God is not. His love and his justice are perfect. These are hard concepts to grasp, I understand. Keep seeking God and he will show you.

 

I confess that I like to focus on God and Him being love. I don't understand wrath and justice very well.

 

However, I am just one tiny speck on a planet called earth (in English). The universe is way bigger than me and was here before me and does not depend on my existence in order to exist. Since that is a fact, I trust in God's love and grace and mercy even though I don't understand other aspects of God and judgement.

 

If I were god, I would most definitely not have allowed guns or death or anything like that. If any human had tried to make weapons, I would have transformed those weapons into pretty flowers. That's just me. I am not making fun of God at all... I am honestly expressing what I would do if I were god. The important fact though is that obviously I am not God, and therefore cannot judge God for who He is and how He chooses to judge human beings who disobey Him. I'm just so thankful for His love and goodness and mercy and grace and forgiveness. I am also thankful for the beautiful things He has created, including flowers!!!

[TheFinalWord]

I confess that I like to focus on God and Him being love. I don't understand wrath and justice very well.

 

However, I am just one tiny speck on a planet called earth (in English). The universe is way bigger than me and was here before me and does not depend on my existence in order to exist. Since that is a fact, I trust in God's love and grace and mercy even though I don't understand other aspects of God and judgement.

 

If I were god, I would most definitely not have allowed guns or death or anything like that. If any human had tried to make weapons, I would have transformed those weapons into pretty flowers. That's just me. I am not making fun of God at all... I am honestly expressing what I would do if I were god. The important fact though is that obviously I am not God, and therefore cannot judge God for who He is and how He chooses to judge human beings who disobey Him. I'm just so thankful for His love and goodness and mercy and grace and forgiveness. I am also thankful for the beautiful things He has created, including flowers!!!

 

I totally understand You are a very gentle woman, I can tell you have a kind, ministering spirit. That's a gift from God. You're the LS's little ray of light

 

I agree with you (that comment wasn't meant towards you or anyone else. It's just a general thing I encounter a lot)I know this thread is like 10 pages or something, I haven't read everything to be honest, I've got a problem with just replying to whatever I see Pray for me I'm working on it). The cross is a symbol of God's love and wrath. We can see that God loves us by laying down his life, but we can also see the real consequences of sin, which our Lord took upon Himself for us.

 

http://www.intouch.org/you/sermon-outlines/content?topic=the_cross_where_the_wrath_and_love_of_god_meet_sermon_outline

[Titanwolf]

I confess that I like to focus on God and Him being love. I don't understand wrath and justice very well.

 

However, I am just one tiny speck on a planet called earth (in English). The universe is way bigger than me and was here before me and does not depend on my existence in order to exist. Since that is a fact, I trust in God's love and grace and mercy even though I don't understand other aspects of God and judgement.

 

If I were god, I would most definitely not have allowed guns or death or anything like that. If any human had tried to make weapons, I would have transformed those weapons into pretty flowers. That's just me. I am not making fun of God at all... I am honestly expressing what I would do if I were god. The important fact though is that obviously I am not God, and therefore cannot judge God for who He is and how He chooses to judge human beings who disobey Him. I'm just so thankful for His love and goodness and mercy and grace and forgiveness. I am also thankful for the beautiful things He has created, including flowers!!!

 

I feel like that too. I'm insignificant in the grand scheme of things, but despite our tiny existence, our actions (no matter how small) sends ripples throughout this vast ocean we call life. I believe that everything we do is accounted for. I lol'ed @ the flowers, what an epic idea

 

I can't find fault with you Bethebutterfly, I can only respect you. As love unlimited said, you're one of the rare ones. Your patience certainly outlasted mine and I have the patience of a monk. I only hope that your religion doesn't ever become the source of your misery as it has for me.

 

 

If you're a Christian, you follow the Bible and His Word. Obviously, everyone slips up. There's an old saying where I'm from that "God loves a trier," and I think it's true. God sees our soul in the things we do, the words we speak, and how we try. Jesus said something about this in Matthew 7:18

 

"A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit."

 

The tree can be seen as your heart, a good heart can not produce evil works. Likewise, a bad heart can not produce good works. I don't often think of hell, and what it could entail for anyone. I don't like to. I don't think God is not loving because He can send us to hell. He doesn't want to. That is why He gives us our whole lives to accept Christ into our hearts.

 

He wants us to have His Kingdom, but we can't expect to live our lives exactly as our earthly desires see fit, and still receive it. It doesn't work that way. His Word is there, we know what He expects of us, and whilst I do believe we all slip, we can all try and live by it. Jesus discussed this in Matthew 13:15

 

"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."

 

 

The bold part to me means that Jesus wants us to take Him into our hearts, to understand His message, and believe with the very core of us who He is. Only then would He heal, or offer the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

This is going to sound a bit blunt here, and I do apologize in advance, but there's really no other way of saying it. If you spend a lifetime rejecting God, ignore His Word completely, live out your earthly desires, get to the end of the road and realize that you were completely wrong, why should God accept you? It doesn't work that way. Nothing good comes for free.

 

Then you're saying that we're servants?. Why give life, when we're forced to live a certain way during that life? and if we don't, we pay extreme consequences for "enjoying" that one life we had (according to each individual). That's extremely unnecessary. No one has answered my question. Would you bring a child in this world only to enslave them?. Making them believe things that are detrimental to their health?. If they didn't abide by your rules, you would be willing to quite literally, throw them into a blazing inferno?. Be straight with me, because I know anyone with a heart, with the true capacity for love wouldn't do that. I would give my life for my mother, that's what love is. No variation of pain and torment can equate to love, it just doesn't add up like that.

 

To be honest, I don't care. I don't feel the need to be accepted and I wouldn't want to be accepted by a God that promotes crusades, anti-homosexuality and "holy wars" anyway. If I'm such a problem, with all his divinity, he could easily destroy me and let me vanish in peace, but no that's not enough... and I can ask you the same question. What happens when you're confronted with the God that I believe in (if that even happens) and you were completely wrong?. The God I believe in doesn't care about such trivial matters. He/she, whatever, created the universe because that's what a creator does. He put the planet and all other mechanisms in place to support self-sufficiency. Mortal affairs do not concern "it" because "it" does not feel, it only creates. Personally, I believe that when you die, you're either out of existence, or you roam the earth (evidential from Ouija boards and such), I'm not passing that off as fact though. I acknowledge that I could be completely wrong and that's what makes us different. I'm entertaining all possibilities. Only after you've done that can you find the valid likelihood as to what happens after death and possibly religion as a whole too.

 

Well, I'm glad it invoked questions in your mind. I would encourage you to study those questions. In order to understand stumbling block issues like hell, I have found the best way is to ask God to show you, research all those links I gave, and study as much as you can. Lots of good books on this topic, i will be happy to PM you if you are interested. Most importantly, be open to the possibility that His ways are not necessarily our ways.

 

The point of life is to serve God. Only God can reveal your specific part of His plan, if you allow Him. Yes, God's judgement makes a lot of people angry, it's why they killed Christ, Paul, Stephen, etc. And I don't mean to make you angry, but it's the message that does it and hopefully not me. I would only tell you that the message of Christ is at natural enmity with our carnal mind. What you are feeling is a total natural repulsion. Those feelings make you uneasy, I'm sure. I know it did me for a long time. It's not my job to persuade you, or beat you over the head with it Just give you the message and encourage you to study, study, study, and seek God. I agree 100% with Warren here:

 

 

I hear you, such a dense topic requires dense research time to fully unravel at least an essence of truth. What we have to understand when referencing people is, there's always someone else that makes a sound argument against them. Both arguments are so compelling that, you would have to be biased to be able decide what the truth is, without conducting your own research. Even then, you would be researching what exactly? history that was written and altered by man? stories told, full of half-truths? Maybe I should look into philosophy...

Edited September 25, 2012 by Titanwolf

[BetheButterfly]

I feel like that too. I'm insignificant in the grand scheme of things, but despite our tiny existence, our actions (no matter how small) sends ripples throughout this vast ocean we call life. I believe that everything we do is accounted for. I lol'ed @ the flowers, what an epic idea

 

Yes that's so true that our actions do send ripples and affect others.

 

Sometimes I wish God had made humans more like robots, so that we wouldn't hurt each other, but he didn't. I believe he wants people to love and obey Him on their own accord, not because they are programmed to do what he wanted. If he had made us like robots, then I don't think love would have been as possible, right?

 

Lol I love flowers; i hate weapons.

 

I can't find fault with you Bethebutterfly, I can only respect you. As love unlimited said, you're one of the rare ones. Your patience certainly outlasted mine and I have the patience of a monk. I only hope that your religion doesn't ever become the source of your misery as it has for me.

My religion isn't a source of misery because I see my beliefs as a personal relationship between me with the Almighty God. Because of the spiritual connection, it is a source of joy and strength and beauty, even when there is suffering going on in my life.

 

 

Then you're saying that we're servants?.

People who don't believe in God are basically servants too. It just depends on who or what is the master. Some people serve money. Jesus, however, said that a person can serve God or money, which is interesting. (Luke 6:13)

 

Some people serve other people. My sister, an RN, serves Mommas who are having their babies at the hospital where she works. Granted, she makes good money doing that, but she does truly have a servant's heart and loves helping them. Jesus made it clear that loving others is a part of serving God. Many people serve others for free in their free time. My sister does that as well.

 

Being a servant just basically means someone who serves. Jesus was considered a servant of God (Acts 3:13) and those who follow him are supposed to serve God too. One of the main ways to serve God is through helping those in need. That is one reason why many Christians have been and are involved in the medical field, including starting the Red Cross. That is also why many charity organizations have been started by Christians, like the YMCA. That is also why many universities and schools have been started by Christians, because education helps people too.

 

Basically, Christians are supposed to be civil servants in helping communities. This is part of serving God.

 

Why give life, when we're forced to live a certain way during that life?

Maybe that's why God didn't create us to merely be his robots?

 

and if we don't, we pay extreme consequences for "enjoying" that one life we had (according to each individual). That's extremely unnecessary. No one has answered my question. Would you bring a child in this world only to enslave them?.

I am a servant of God, and I am happy to be so. I would rather serve God than serve money. The reason is because I see that God wants people to be happy and healthy. Jesus healed people because of that, for God's glory. The medical field today is similar to Jesus' healing touch. Again, that is why the medical field has had and still has today many Christians, servants of God, who dedicate their lives to help heal others.

 

 

Making them believe things that are detrimental to their health?. If they didn't abide by your rules, you would be willing to quite literally, throw them into a blazing inferno?. Be straight with me, because I know anyone with a heart, with the true capacity for love wouldn't do that. I would give my life for my mother, that's what love is. No variation of pain and torment can equate to love, it just doesn't add up like that.

I agree with Harmfulsweetz. I wouldn't send anyone to hell. Frankly, I abhor the idea. However, I love God. As stated before, I don't understand this "side" of God. What is interesting to me as well is that the doctrine of hell is not clearly defined in the Tanakh. In the gospel accounts, hell is found in paraboles and hyperbole that Jesus used to teach the people the importance of caring for others and not sinning. Because I don't understand the idea very well, I don't feel the need to try to condemn anyone who is different than me to hell. I do however hope that those who hurt others STOP and repent and DON'T HURT others anymore!!!

To be honest, I don't care. I don't feel the need to be accepted and I wouldn't want to be accepted by a God that promotes crusades, anti-homosexuality and "holy wars" anyway.

I don't believe God promotes Crusades or holy wars. As for homosexuals, I believe God loves them, yet hates ANY sin because sin hurts people. I totally agree with Harmful Sweetz that it's not right for people to just pick one sin out and make it like a most horrible one, when it's not. For people struggling with choosing to live a homosexual lifestyle, God knows their hearts. He sees all that they do, think, and say same as he does everyone else. He knows that many are very good people who strive to help others and who have an inclination to homosexuality, based on their own experiences in ilfe.

 

As for the Tanakh, it is an important point that the Law of Moses was for the protection and preservation of the children of Israel. Homosexuality does not produce offspring like heterosexual relations can. For the children of Israel, having children was a blessing and helped their people multiply, obviously.

 

By the way, interestingly there is a funny quote nowadays that some women use to complain about the unavailability of a man they like. They say, "He's either married, has a girlfriend already, or is gay." Sadly for some women who desire to be one with a specific man, oftentimes the men they are attracted to are either attached or gay. It is true that this limits their "choices" you could say, as to who they eventually marry. I don't know how many times I've heard some women wish that some men in specific were not gay... why? Because they would have loved to have had a relationship with that man.

 

One man who used to live the gay lifestyle, Sy Rogers, has been married for more than 20 years. He is so absolutely adorable!!! I see how his wife married him. Now, she understands perfectly well his past and I personally see their marriage as risky because of his past. However, she loves him enough to risk the possibility that someday he might want to go back to the homosexual lifestyle. However, he has not so far. I believe they both love each other and are attracted to each other. I love how he talks about his marriage to a woman who accepted him and who he loves.

http://syrogers.com/Sy_Rogers_Biography.html

 

If I'm such a problem, with all his divinity, he could easily destroy me and let me vanish in peace, but no that's not enough... and I can ask you the same question.

I am so glad he doesn't!!! God doesn't want to destroy people. He made people to live. That's why 1 of the 10 commands is to not murder. He doesn't want people to destroy each other either!

 

What happens when you're confronted with the God that I believe in (if that even happens) and you were completely wrong?. The God I believe in doesn't care about such trivial matters. He/she, whatever, created the universe because that's what a creator does. He put the planet and all other mechanisms in place to support self-sufficiency. Mortal affairs do not concern "it" because "it" does not feel, it only creates.

If the God you believe in doesn't care about trivial matters, then why would he/she/it confront people?

Personally, I believe that when you die, you're either out of existence, or you roam the earth (evidential from Ouija boards and such), I'm not passing that off as fact though. I acknowledge that I could be completely wrong and that's what makes us different. I'm entertaining all possibilities. Only after you've done that can you find the valid likelihood as to what happens after death and possibly religion as a whole too.

My husband believes that when people die, they're in a state of "sleep" until Jesus comes back. I personally believe that when people who know God die, they go to Heaven. However, I don't know either. Basically, everyone has their own theory and even though people who have experienced a temporary death state their experiences, it seems that people have diverse experiences.

 

Oh! C.S. Lewis has very interesting points concerning the concept of hell... his writings are thought-provoking!

 

 

I hear you, such a dense topic requires dense research time to fully unravel at least an essence of truth. What we have to understand when referencing people is, there's always someone else that makes a sound argument against them. Both arguments are so compelling that, you would have to be biased to be able decide what the truth is, without conducting your own research. Even then, you would be researching what exactly? history that was written and altered by man? stories told, full of half-truths? Maybe I should look into philosophy...

I am glad that we have accounts from history. If we didn't, then we would not know what people a long time ago believed, as well as what they did and said. I am glad that people in the past wrote down accounts and I consider the accounts of the descendants of Abraham, isaac, and Jacob to be true. I also appreciate and enjoy reading the accounts of other peoples, including the Native Americans. Even though I don't believe all concerning the Native American histories/accounts, I do very much learn from them and their ancestors, especially in having respect for the earth and animals. Edited September 25, 2012 by BetheButterfly

[Titanwolf]

Yes that's so true that our actions do send ripples and affect others.

 

Sometimes I wish God had made humans more like robots, so that we wouldn't hurt each other, but he didn't. I believe he wants people to love and obey Him on their own accord, not because they are programmed to do what he wanted. If he had made us like robots, then I don't think love would have been as possible, right?

 

Lol I love flowers; i hate weapons.

 

I actually do to, but then in some instances, I wish I was never born in the 1st place. I'm quite peeved that I was brought into existence (was about to say against my will, but that wouldn't make sense) having to endure "life". And then after I'm finished up here, I have a nice barbeque to look forward to.......I never liked barbeques..

 

My religion isn't a source of misery because I see my beliefs as a personal relationship between me with the Almighty God. Because of the spiritual connection, it is a source of joy and strength and beauty, even when there is suffering going on in my life.

 

 

People who don't believe in God are basically servants too. It just depends on who or what is the master. Some people serve money. Jesus, however, said that a person can serve God or money, which is interesting. (Luke 6:13)

 

Some people serve other people. My sister, an RN, serves Mommas who are having their babies at the hospital where she works. Granted, she makes good money doing that, but she does truly have a servant's heart and loves helping them. Jesus made it clear that loving others is a part of serving God. Many people serve others for free in their free time. My sister does that as well.

 

Being a servant just basically means someone who serves. Jesus was considered a servant of God (Acts 3:13) and those who follow him are supposed to serve God too. One of the main ways to serve God is through helping those in need. That is one reason why many Christians have been and are involved in the medical field, including starting the Red Cross. That is also why many charity organizations have been started by Christians, like the YMCA. That is also why many universities and schools have been started by Christians, because education helps people too.

 

Basically, Christians are supposed to be civil servants in helping communities. This is part of serving God.

 

Maybe that's why God didn't create us to merely be his robots?

 

I am a servant of God, and I am happy to be so. I would rather serve God than serve money. The reason is because I see that God wants people to be happy and healthy. Jesus healed people because of that, for God's glory. The medical field today is similar to Jesus' healing touch. Again, that is why the medical field has had and still has today many Christians, servants of God, who dedicate their lives to help heal others.

Many of the things I do, would be seen as acts of servitude, but I do not consider myself a servant. That's always had negative implications for me and whenever I hear it, I think of people without will or freedom. I am not that person. I know that many Christian communities band together to create organizations in the medical field, that help people. I've always admired that side of religion. I was actually considering the salvation army as well, until I realized that it's an army based on religious principles that I don't agree with (I wonder if they even accept gay people-though I'm straight).

 

I am happy and I am healthy, I couldn't ask for more and yet "he" does. That's not enough. What's that phrase, oh yeah "Damned if you do, damned if you don't".

 

 

I agree with Harmfulsweetz. I wouldn't send anyone to hell. Frankly, I abhor the idea. However, I love God. As stated before, I don't understand this "side" of God. What is interesting to me as well is that the doctrine of hell is not clearly defined in the Tanakh. In the gospel accounts, hell is found in paraboles and hyperbole that Jesus used to teach the people the importance of caring for others and not sinning. Because I don't understand the idea very well, I don't feel the need to try to condemn anyone who is different than me to hell. I do however hope that those who hurt others STOP and repent and DON'T HURT others anymore!!!

I don't believe God promotes Crusades or holy wars. As for homosexuals, I believe God loves them, yet hates ANY sin because sin hurts people. I totally agree with Harmful Sweetz that it's not right for people to just pick one sin out and make it like a most horrible one, when it's not. For people struggling with choosing to live a homosexual lifestyle, God knows their hearts. He sees all that they do, think, and say same as he does everyone else. He knows that many are very good people who strive to help others and who have an inclination to homosexuality, based on their own experiences in ilfe.

 

As for the Tanakh, it is an important point that the Law of Moses was for the protection and preservation of the children of Israel. Homosexuality does not produce offspring like heterosexual relations can. For the children of Israel, having children was a blessing and helped their people multiply, obviously.

Neither would I. From the way it's portrayed, no one on Earth deserves that, which leads me to question the authenticity of these claims, or the authenticity of the claims that God is loving. Again, the maths is wrong here.

 

Fair enough, I acknowledge that homosexuals cannot naturally bear children. However, they shouldn't be punished for that. That's not their fault and for someone who was actually born gay, it's not fair to expect them to remain celibate, or go against every single fibre in their bodies, just to adhere to a religion that no one is even sure is real.

 

By the way, interestingly there is a funny quote nowadays that some women use to complain about the unavailability of a man they like. They say, "He's either married, has a girlfriend already, or is gay." Sadly for some women who desire to be one with a specific man, oftentimes the men they are attracted to are either attached or gay. It is true that this limits their "choices" you could say, as to who they eventually marry. I don't know how many times I've heard some women wish that some men in specific were not gay... why? Because they would have loved to have had a relationship with that man.

 

One man who used to live the gay lifestyle, Sy Rogers, has been married for more than 20 years. He is so absolutely adorable!!! I see how his wife married him. Now, she understands perfectly well his past and I personally see their marriage as risky because of his past. However, she loves him enough to risk the possibility that someday he might want to go back to the homosexual lifestyle. However, he has not so far. I believe they both love each other and are attracted to each other. I love how he talks about his marriage to a woman who accepted him and who he loves.

About Sy Rogers - Biography, Publicity Photos

 

I am so glad he doesn't!!! God doesn't want to destroy people. He made people to live. That's why 1 of the 10 commands is to not murder. He doesn't want people to destroy each other either!

 

If the God you believe in doesn't care about trivial matters, then why would he/she/it confront people?

My husband believes that when people die, they're in a state of "sleep" until Jesus comes back. I personally believe that when people who know God die, they go to Heaven. However, I don't know either. Basically, everyone has their own theory and even though people who have experienced a temporary death state their experiences, it seems that people have diverse experiences.

 

Oh! C.S. Lewis has very interesting points concerning the concept of hell... his writings are thought-provoking!

 

 

I am glad that we have accounts from history. If we didn't, then we would not know what people a long time ago believed, as well as what they did and said. I am glad that people in the past wrote down accounts and I consider the accounts of the descendants of Abraham, isaac, and Jacob to be true. I also appreciate and enjoy reading the accounts of other peoples, including the Native Americans. Even though I don't believe all concerning the Native American histories/accounts, I do very much learn from them and their ancestors, especially in having respect for the earth and animals.

Ce la vie. We don't always get what we want in life sadly, there are some things we can't even consider an option. I'm sure that there are a lot of men who wish that there was a particular woman who wasn't a lesbian, but she was born that way and it doesn't make any more sense than wishing you was born into a different race.

 

That story is actually sad. The first thing that came to mind is "Peer pressure at it's finest". I don't really know what to say about that, so I won't say anything.

 

That's why I had to mention "If that even happens" because I don't think it does tbh. That's funny though, I believe that we're dreaming now, but like you said, it's an area that's open to many different interpretations. It doesn't change the truth though.

 

I'm not a fan of history, because things, at the very least, get lost in translation and/or transit. When I had to study war in school, I was always wondering, "What about the letters (that were never discovered or were intercepted) they wrote to each other, what did they say?", "Would it have changed that particular person's decision (whatever that was) at the time?" questions, questions. It's the way my mind operates, to not believe something unless I saw it with my own eyes, or experienced it for myself. I believe they call it cynicism.

 

I liked Native Americans though. They were like a tribe of st Francis' lol.

 

*sigh* I don't know where I'm expecting to go with this discussion. I shall continue my research regardless.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Titanwolf

[BetheButterfly]

I actually do to, but then in some instances, I wish I was never born in the 1st place. I'm quite peeved that I was brought into existence (was about to say against my will, but that wouldn't make sense) having to endure "life". And then after I'm finished up here, I have a nice barbeque to look forward to.......I never liked barbeques..

 

I am so sorry to read that. Why do you wish sometimes that you were never born? Life is beautiful and amazing!!! Yes there are terrible sides to life too, but one could see life as being like a rose: there is beauty (the bloom) and there is pain (the thorns)

 

I very much hope that you enjoy life to the fullest!!! Helping people and animals helps one enjoy life and understand they (both the helpers and those who are being helped) have purpose!!! It's awesome when people help each other! This makes the world a beautiful place and I believe that is how God originally designed the earth to be: a beautiful place full of love and care for others and for the earth!

 

Many of the things I do, would be seen as acts of servitude, but I do not consider myself a servant. That's always had negative implications for me and whenever I hear it, I think of people without will or freedom.

 

Do you see the word servant = to slave? If so, then I understand why that bothers you. I hate slavery and am so ashamed that so many "Christians" over the ages had slaves. Christians are supposed to be servants and help others, not have slaves and hurt others. I am glad that many of the abolitionists were Christians, including Elijah Lovejoy who was murdered because he was showing others that enslaving people is evil.

I am not that person. I know that many Christian communities band together to create organizations in the medical field, that help people. I've always admired that side of religion. I was actually considering the salvation army as well, until I realized that it's an army based on religious principles that I don't agree with (I wonder if they even accept gay people-though I'm straight).

 

There are other organizations who are not Christian that you can help with, though it would be sad to discriminate against Christian organizations just because they don't believe the same as you. I love Angelina Jolie and her helping other people. She is an Atheist and I personally believe God takes into account why she is Atheist (She has valid reasons, as do most Atheists, due to their personal experiences.) and the fact that she helps those in need. That she helps those in need is very important in God's eyes, according to Jesus in Matthew 25. I believe God will reward her for that even though she doesn't believe in Him.

 

James says, "Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. 27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." - James 1:27 James 1 NIV - James, a servant of God and of the Lord - Bible Gateway

 

Helping others is so important to God!!!

I am happy and I am healthy, I couldn't ask for more and yet "he" does. That's not enough. What's that phrase, oh yeah "Damned if you do, damned if you don't".

 

For many people, there is more to life than feelings and health. Feelings and health are not at all bad. I am also happy and healthy, but I also have an intense love for my Creator, so much so that it does not depend on what other people say but on my own experience with Him.

 

 

Neither would I. From the way it's portrayed, no one on Earth deserves that, which leads me to question the authenticity of these claims, or the authenticity of the claims that God is loving. Again, the maths is wrong here.

 

I think some of the ideas concerning hell have come from the influence of Roman/Greek ideas, not so much from the Jewish Tanakh. Again, the Tanakh does not clearly define the concept of hell as being an eternal torture chamber. As for Jesus' teachings, it is important to note that he used parables (Matthew 25:41-46) and some hyperbole (Matthew 5:21-30), when speaking about the concept of hell. He was teaching his followers how important it is to help others as well as to not sin.

Fair enough, I acknowledge that homosexuals cannot naturally bear children. However, they shouldn't be punished for that. That's not their fault and for someone who was actually born gay, it's not fair to expect them to remain celibate, or go against every single fibre in their bodies, just to adhere to a religion that no one is even sure is real.

 

For those who believe in God and believe the Bible is true, it is fair for them to follow what they believe God wants them to do concerning their bodies and sex. For example, I follow what I believe God wants me to do concerning my body and sex. This means that I do not have sex with any other man except my husband!!! Now, that doesn't mean I never am tempted to disobey God's command for sexual faithfulness for spouses, but I deliberately choose to obey God. This makes my marriage to my husband a very healthy and secure one. My husband trusts me. My husband knows I write on here, and is fine with that. He knows I refuse to become sexually active with anyone but him. That takes self-control as well as firm conviction that it is for the best, for God's glory as well as for our marriage!

 

Ce la vie. We don't always get what we want in life sadly, there are some things we can't even consider an option. I'm sure that there are a lot of men who wish that their was a particular woman who wasn't a lesbian, but she was born that way and it doesn't make any more sense than wishing you was born into a different race.

 

That story is actually sad. The first thing that came to mind is "Peer pressure at it's finest". I don't really know what to say about that, so I won't say anything.

 

I don't think love between 2 people is sad. I am glad that Sy Rogers found love. Sad to say, many people don't. Sad to say, even many people who get married don't find love and their marriage doesn't end up lasting.

 

About peer pressure, it is true that maybe some people get married due to peer pressure. This I think happens all the time. However, because both you and I don't personally know Sy Rogers and his intimate life with his wife, it is not for us to dub his marriage a product of peer pressure. Because he says he married for love, I believe him. Since I have no proof to the contrary, it's best to believe what a person says unless you have proof that he is lying.

 

T

hat's why I had to mention "If that even happens" because I don't think it does tbh. That's funny though, I believe that we're dreaming now, but like you said, it's an area that's open to many different interpretations. It doesn't change the truth though.

 

I'm not a fan of history, because things, at the very least, get lost in translation and/or transit. When I had to study war in school, I was always wondering, "What about the letters (that were never discovered or were intercepted) they wrote to each other, what did they say?", "Would it have changed that particular person's decision (whatever that was) at the time?" questions, questions. It's the way my mind operates, to not believe something unless I saw it with my own eyes, or experienced it for myself. I believe they call it cynicism.

 

I think it's good to question.

 

I liked Native Americans though. They were like a tribe of st Francis' lol.

 

What is a tribe of St. Francis?

 

*sigh* I don't know where I'm expecting to go with this discussion. I shall continue my research regardless.

 

It's good to discuss with people. I am not trying to persuade you to what I believe. I am only explaining what I believe and my personal experience. One thing that is indeed confusing but interesting is that many people have many different experiences. That leads to more questions, and actually, I have found that I don't have the answers to all of them. However, it is interesting to ask questions and to learn from other groups of people. I am currently learning from Buddhists and Native American faiths, even though I disagree with some of what they believe. However, what is important is mutual respect and love and kindness, helping others! That is what I choose to dwell on because that is what I believe God wants me to do in life: love!

[Titanwolf]

What is a tribe of St. Francis?

I meant that the Native American's loved nature, as did st Francis.

 

Thank you for you insight though. Even though I didn't find anything to be conclusive, I gained a great deal of knowledge that I didn't have prior to creating this thread. I'm no longer angry, it is what it is.

 

I also extend my thanks to TheFinalWord, Harmfulsweetz, Mercy and Mme. Chaucer for their help.

[TheFinalWord]

I hear you, such a dense topic requires dense research time to fully unravel at least an essence of truth. What we have to understand when referencing people is, there's always someone else that makes a sound argument against them. Both arguments are so compelling that, you would have to be biased to be able decide what the truth is, without conducting your own research. Even then, you would be researching what exactly? history that was written and altered by man? stories told, full of half-truths? Maybe I should look into philosophy...

 

Hey bro,

 

You are 100% correct. There is an interesting statement by Jesus:

 

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

 

Christianity is very inclusive, in that anyone can attain salvation, but it is also exclusive in that Christ claimed He is the only way to heaven. That can be a hard doctrine to accept. Very hard.

 

There is always a man-made counter argument you are 100% correct on that. The thing is, anyone can argue and criticize. But very few people will humble themselves, and seek God. What I mean by that is a lot of man-made counter arguments are b/c people don't want to accept that it's God's universe; He makes the rules. It's a very natural human proclivity to recoil at God's truths. Why? Because we have pride.

 

So the first step is not to just read man-made documents and essays, but instead to humble ourselves and tell God, "hey it's your way not my way. You are God, I'm not. I will trust what you tell me". This type of mindset is what the bible calls "the fear of the Lord". It's putting God on the throne and abasing our ego.

 

Now, that is not always easy and it can take time for that change in heart to occur. But it will occur if you allow God to change your heart And your allowance is very important. The Holy Spirit is very gentle, I have found. He will never plow you over, subdue your will, or make you feel guilty. He is very patient and kind.

 

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

 

Fearing and reverencing God is the first step in attaining God's Wisdom.

 

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge but fools despise wisdom and instruction." -- Proverbs 1

 

An interesting parable Jesus gave to illustrate how to find God and to make peace with God:

 

"To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee (these were the religious leaders of Jesus day) and the other a tax collector (tax collectors were considered scum bags in that day). The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

 

The find God's heart on an issue, we have to reverence God, humble ourselves and seek Him with our whole heart heart. For example, "Lord, there are so many people preaching this doctrine and that. Please show me the truth about Jesus."

 

Please know, that all of what I am saying applies to me too. I was about as rebellious against God as they get at one point in my life. Basically, the bible was good for joint paper in my mind. Now, I literally cry when I read certain passages b/c God's spirit ministers so strongly to me. I am so thankful to have His precious words. But this didn't happen right away. Only after humbling myself, allowing God to be God, and seeking Him with my whole heart. I will pray for you friend. I think it is so awesome you are searching!! God speed.

Edited September 25, 2012 by TheFinalWord

[mercy]

Isn't it this thread we were talking about heaven and hell?

 

If I adore You out of fear of Hell, burn me in Hell!

If I adore you out of desire for Paradise,

Lock me out of Paradise.

But if I adore you for Yourself alone,

Do not deny to me Your eternal beauty. - Rabia

[taiko]

Help me out here, I never quite understood this when I was a Catholic (still follow most religions and their teachings for the sake of knowledge though). Ok, sex in itself isn't a sin. Masturbation isn't a sin in itself either. However, sex before marriage (fornication) and masturbation in the presence of porn are seen as sinful acts no?. Why is it that this aspect of the teachings are often ignored, or brushed aside?. When I used to go to Church, I would see people there who regularly attended, but also regularly engaged in acts that they're supposed to be against. The bible cannot be re-written (though I question the authenticity as a whole) and thus, though the times change, the teachings do not no?. Help me out here, for the sake of closure.

 

I mean no offence to anyone. If I have said something that offends, it's because of my ignorance.

Okay bringing it back to the original topic Since in the Catholic Church the exact scriptures for the week are assigned besides getting what he thinks is an unhealthy number of confessions on the subject when is he to bring up the topic of masturbation and fornication? Now a church with a congregational leadership the pastor will know his flock are mongers or ex sex workers and aim his messages and scriptural support towards those topics.

 

As for the church and its members causing scandal there is the out clause of the confessional. You don't know if that member is repented so say a Nancy Pelosi will be allowed to come up for communion on Sunday but then support abortion and say the church is conflicted on when life starts on Monday. And then when she dies she will have a funeral mass no matter what you saw and heard her do publicly against church teaching and what is a sin.

[BetheButterfly]

I meant that the Native American's loved nature, as did st Francis.

 

Thank you for you insight though. Even though I didn't find anything to be conclusive, I gained a great deal of knowledge that I didn't have prior to creating this thread. I'm no longer angry, it is what it is.

 

I also extend my thanks to TheFinalWord, Harmfulsweetz, Mercy and Mme. Chaucer for their help.

 

Oh cool! I didn't know that. I would like to learn more about St. Francis then.

 

I'm not Catholic; I'm Protestant. I do have some wonderful Catholic friends who are sincere in their faith. I love how they help people.

 

That's so cool that St. Francis loved nature!!!