Who broke the vows first?

[Decorative]

A bit OT but why she is anti-woman if she is sympathetic to what men deal with in marriages? What wrong with being on the side of fairness instead of just rooting for your gender?

 

To me ? It feels anti-woman when you make stuff up about the women in those marriages, based on only the words of unrepentant, blame shifting husbands who have cheated, and are looking for a way to shake blame off their shoulders.

 

I don't think all women are united and the same in their thinking. But this thread has shown some pretty ugly views of women who have chosen a different path than the OP has. And tied together with having read multiple threads- it shows a very clear bias against women, and especially women who resemble her MM's wife.

 

Which is totally her right, of course. I just think some people are notching a pattern and commenting on it.

[MissBee]

While I can see the merit in these, I had neither, and now after 25 years of M, would have to say some of what I might have thought important for a prenup would no longer be important. To me what matters the most is continual open and honest communication. For people that have difficulty with that, then counselling would be important. But if both people want to and do communicate openly and honestly, I wonder what counseling would add. In my own case, I'm sure it would not do harm, but given all the things one wants to do with our short time here, I don't think it would have been worth my time.

 

However, in some cases I do think one or both of these would help.

 

Woinlove,

 

When you talk about your values and your M, they are things I quite admire. It seems like you and your husband communicate effectively, negotiate things that work for you and are open and honest, love each other, but more importantly, seem mature and have worked at a way of being good at your relationship. That said, I think, esp in this day and age, that is rare. I think so many people simply don't know how to be good at relationships. It is easy to fall inlove but it is not the same as making a partnership, particularly a longterm one work and work well. I truly feel like the skills necessary for a good relationship aren't inborn, but learned and many of us, through no fault of our own, simply didn't learn well. I advocate counseling, premarital, and even perhaps periodically during marriage as prevention and as active work to make sure that you have the proper tools. I don't think simply wanting your relationship to work is enough for most people as we see....they may have good intentions but lack the skills to effectively convey their wants and desires and therefore find it hard to respond to that in another. I strongly believe in preempting and staving off problems and not waiting until they explode to realize there is one and I think had many folks done premarital counseling they'd have found out some key things prior to tying the knot.

 

I'm really of the mind, especially as I've grown, that relationship skills are things you actively work on like any other skill in life. I think some assume once you love someone you KNOW how to have a good relationship...so not the case. I think of it like your profession; no matter how long you've been doing it, usually jobs like for you to get refreshers and to simply actively work on doing things in a better way. I think with marriage it is the same, espcially since in the course of years so much growth and change happens, so to keep up, I think couples should have a mindset that it is a skill to be honed. You may not need to spend money to sit with a counselor...but setting out some type of time together to communicate and recommit yourselves to each other and check the health of your relationship and where weak spots are is so vital IMO.

Edited September 23, 2012 by MissBee

[AnotherRound]

To me ? It feels anti-woman when you make stuff up about the women in those marriages, based on only the words of unrepentant, blame shifting husbands who have cheated, and are looking for a way to shake blame off their shoulders.

 

I don't think all women are united and the same in their thinking. But this thread has shown some pretty ugly views of women who have chosen a different path than the OP has. And tied together with having read multiple threads- it shows a very clear bias against women, and especially women who resemble her MM's wife.

 

Which is totally her right, of course. I just think some people are notching a pattern and commenting on it.

 

This is ridiculous, lol. ExMMs stbxw has NEVER been a SAHM. This is not about her, or anyone in particular. It was a general observation from reading and hearing about MANY wives with a common theme - them changing after marriage into who they "really" are, and how that was unfair to the partner.

 

I will say it again, I admire SAHMs - I just don't think that they should get paid for choosing to raise children. That's just my opinion, but really has nothing to do with this thread UNLESS you are talking about a woman who did the bait and switch solely bc she wanted to be a SAHM and not fulfill her relationship part of the marriage. In that case, yes, I think she shouldn't get paid as she wasn't honest about WHY she wanted to marry.

 

I'm not making anything up, and this is NOT about exMM's stbxw (although I do believe in their situation, she tricked him with the marriage, and def tricked him with the child, read previous threads for that explanation). But other than that, there was no correlation to her. I have NO idea where you are getting that.

 

And, it's fine if some think I'm "anti woman" - it's hilarious, but it's fine. It would be interesting that I've never heard that in my entire life, except here bc I disagree with some, so, I'm not taking it to heart. I stand up for what is fair, regardless of gender - and just made this example a woman changing for simplicity. You can switch the genders if you want, doesn't matter to me - I'd feel the exact same way.

[woinlove]

Woinlove,

 

When you talk about your values and your M, they are things I quite admire. It seems like you and your husband communicate effectively, negotiate things that work for you and are open and honest, love each other, but more importantly, seem mature and have worked at a way of being good at your relationship. That said, I think, esp in this day and age, that is rare. I think so many people simply don't know how to be good at relationships. It is easy to fall inlove but it is not the same as making a partnership, particularly a longterm one work and work well. I truly feel like the skills necessary for a good relationship aren't inborn, but learned and many of us, through no fault of our own, simply didn't learn well. I advocate counseling, premarital, and even perhaps periodically during marriage as prevention and as active work to make sure that you have the proper tools. I don't think simply wanting your relationship to work is enough for most people as we see....they may have good intentions but lack the skills to effectively convey their wants and desires and therefore find it hard to respond to that in another. I strongly believe in preempting and staving off problems and not waiting until they explode to realize there is one and I think had many folks done premarital counseling they'd have found out some key things prior to tying the knot.

 

I'm really of the mind, especially as I've grown, that relationship skills are things you actively work on like any other skill in life. I think some assume once you love someone you KNOW how to have a good relationship...so not the case. I think of it like your profession; no matter how long you've been doing it, usually jobs like for you to get refreshers and to simply actively work on doing things in a better way. I think with marriage it is the same, espcially since in the course of years so much growth and change happens, so to keep up, I think couples should have a mindset that it is a skill to be honed. You may not need to spend money to sit with a counselor...but setting out some type of time together to communicate and recommit yourselves to each other and check the health of your relationship and where weak spots are is so vital IMO.

 

I'm not sure how unusual we are, as I can count quite a few long-married, happy couples among my friends. But maybe the fact that we agreed to an open M before we married caused us to discuss everything involving intimacy, honesty, other relationships from friends to flirtations to attractions never acted on to emotional connections to lovers. We discussed exactly what information we felt needed to be shared with each other, how we thought we would react to various situations, what matter most to each of us, what mattered less. And we have kept discussing all that and more ever since. Maybe we would not have discussed so much if we had been planning a conventional, monogamous M. So you are right, couples should plan on spending time together communicating about their R and keep doing this as the years go by. If they see problems in these communications, then certainly, they should look for MC.

[Robert Z]

Good questions...........but one should keep in mind that when posters vent here about lack of sex, you are only getting ONE side of the story. Unless the other spouse posts and gives their side of it, it's biased at the least.

 

It's exactly the same thing when a mm gives his ow info about his marriage/his sex life. Information from a mm about his wife's sex drive or lack thereof, ought to be taken with a big grain of salt. It's to a mm benefit to downplay or yes even lie as many ow have found out the hard way.

 

Now to answer your question from my viewpoint. In my experience and in talking to a few women that I know well, when we discussed lack of sexual interest in their husband. It's because of resentment from being taken for granted, an unfair division of household chores, unfair division of child care, etc. And some men forget how to romance their wives. Most women need to feel connected and valued by their husbands in order to feel sexual. Some men are not good at conveying that.

I've heard a couple of women who said, their husbands were just very bad lovers and and no amount of guidance or gentle suggestions or eventually just being blunt about it, just weren't able to satisfy them because they were inept or just selfish and didn't care.

 

The women I know that have discussed this in depth with me.........well they didn't pull the old bait and switch, they just got pissed off and fed up. Resentment. It's a ugly thing that kills many a marriage.

 

Opps.......I left off the answer to your question.

 

In the instances that I explained above, the vow to love and cherish was broken first by the men.

 

And what makes you think that women don't have unrealistic epectations? I think many do. Maybe they were lousy in bed but the husband was willing to live with it anyway without complaining. Maybe they don't give their men what they need. Maybe they don't try to understand why their husband doesn't feel like passionate like he used to. Do these women take care of themselves? Do they try to work with their husband or do they think they run the house and he is supposed to kiss her butt?

 

I think this commercial about says it all. They are playing to the notion that a man has to sell himself out to get laid by his own wife! Why? Because they have calculated that this is what women really want.

Trojan® Vibrating Twister

[Decorative]

This is ridiculous, lol. ExMMs stbxw has NEVER been a SAHM. This is not about her, or anyone in particular. It was a general observation from reading and hearing about MANY wives with a common theme - them changing after marriage into who they "really" are, and how that was unfair to the partner.

 

I will say it again, I admire SAHMs - I just don't think that they should get paid for choosing to raise children. That's just my opinion, but really has nothing to do with this thread UNLESS you are talking about a woman who did the bait and switch solely bc she wanted to be a SAHM and not fulfill her relationship part of the marriage. In that case, yes, I think she shouldn't get paid as she wasn't honest about WHY she wanted to marry.

 

I'm not making anything up, and this is NOT about exMM's stbxw (although I do believe in their situation, she tricked him with the marriage, and def tricked him with the child, read previous threads for that explanation). But other than that, there was no correlation to her. I have NO idea where you are getting that.

 

And, it's fine if some think I'm "anti woman" - it's hilarious, but it's fine. It would be interesting that I've never heard that in my entire life, except here bc I disagree with some, so, I'm not taking it to heart. I stand up for what is fair, regardless of gender - and just made this example a woman changing for simplicity. You can switch the genders if you want, doesn't matter to me - I'd feel the exact same way.

 

I am not the only poster who made the same connections after reading many, many of your posts. This entire thread is founded on a premise that anti-woman. By you.

 

You may want to step back, take a breath, and see what the reason might be. ( because in your reply, again, you went after your MM's wife. Your bias and fascination with her is showing)

 

And also? As a current mostly SAHM- you do not actually respect them or understand them if you think what they do for their families and spouses has no monetary value. If my spouse had to pay people to do all that I do? It would be a check with a lot of numbers. LOL

Edited September 23, 2012 by Decorative

[Saba]

.....

 

I'm a woman, and it frustrates ME just thinking about it! That after some women get what they want, they stop respecting their marriage certificate (the one they bleat about 24/7 when an affair happens, and how important those vows were) and then say - well, if he isn't happy now that I refuse to hold up my end of the marriage, he should just leave! Really? He should just let you have 50% of everything he has worked for bc you don't want to hold up your end of the marriage? He should give up seeing his kids daily bc you lied or changed your mind? He should give up his house, and half the lifestyle he has lived bc you have decided to take away one of the most important connections that he has in this world - the one you AGREED to that day in front of your family, friends, and god (isn't that what I hear all the time here?)

 

.....

I said in another thread, that this should be grounds for divorce for men. And if this is their grounds, they should get 100% of the assets and the kids full time. Because entering into a contract with someone under false pretenses should make it null and void - and the victim shouldn't have to forfeit everything they love and own bc someone else failed to meet their end of the agreement. Thoughts?

 

And yes, I need to stop reading on the marriage threads, it's so depressing. I swear, every day, there is a new thread about a woman doing this to a man. And the responses? His recourse? Work harder (some of these poor men are running themselves ragged for these entitled women), or divorce. WTF? No wonder men don't want to get married - sheesh.

 

Third time I am replying to this ridiculous stereotype you put forward. I am beginning to think you do not have many female friends. I think it is more common for the sex drive of men to lower over the duration of a marriage rather than the women. Withholding sex as a bargaining chip is demented and the exception rather than the norm... unless you are saying that women do not need sex like men do (or that there are a lot of demented women out there). Sex is something a couple needs to work at over time. Both parties have to work at it. Both... this includes the husband!

 

I am also offended that women need to trap men in marriage. I think women are becoming less and less interested in getting married. Urggggg poor poor men that can't avoid those apalling marriage vows, they need all our sympathy.

 

I find it a little naive (I hope you don't take offence as I do not mean this in an offensive way, naivety is not necessarily a negative personality trait) that an AP could believe anything claimed about the marriage sex life.

 

LOl about the asset splitting. Both parties accumulate assets during a marriage so do you really believe that it is unfair to split them evenly. Why don't you just put these dastardly frigid women in prison!

[OpenBook]

One need only browse thru the Marriage forum here to confirm what AR is saying about how common it is for W's to shut off the sex with their H's.

 

Here are 5 such accounts I found on the first page alone -

 

"Don't love my wife or find her attractive anymore" (WhatASituation)

 

"going insane"; "how do you tell your wife your miserable" (A1135)

 

"How do you best explain to your partner that intimacy is important?" (Elliotte)

 

"Trying But Hurting" (belkin2)

 

"What can i do?" (h-cain)

 

I find it interesting that the very same BW's who blame everybody else but themselves on why their H's cheated ("the OW is amoral, damaged, predatory, narcissistic, etc.etc.etc." - "the CH has a character flaw, something's broken within him, he needs to do a lot of work on himself") are remarkably silent in these threads. The cheating couldn't possibly have ANYTHING to do with the lack of respect she has shown her H within their M for years on end, now could it.

[Woggle]

To be fair most men that cheat are married to great women who desire sex and treat them great while the men married to witches who won't touch them bend over backwards to please their women. It's sad but some men who have a great woman don't really appreciate them. To me it should be the opposite. Not the cheating but go out of your way to please a woman who treats you well and dump a woman that mistreats you.

[Decorative]

One need only browse thru the Marriage forum here to confirm what AR is saying about how common it is for W's to shut off the sex with their H's.

 

Here are 5 such accounts I found on the first page alone -

 

"Don't love my wife or find her attractive anymore" (WhatASituation)

 

"going insane"; "how do you tell your wife your miserable" (A1135)

 

"How do you best explain to your partner that intimacy is important?" (Elliotte)

 

"Trying But Hurting" (belkin2)

 

"What can i do?" (h-cain)

 

I find it interesting that the very same BW's who blame everybody else but themselves on why their H's cheated ("the OW is amoral, damaged, predatory, narcissistic, etc.etc.etc." - "the CH has a character flaw, something's broken within him, he needs to do a lot of work on himself") are remarkably silent in these threads. The cheating couldn't possibly have ANYTHING to do with the lack of respect she has shown her H within their M for years on end, now could it.

 

In general? I don't take responsibility for decisions other people make. I am not a puppet master , nor am I controlled by other people. I assume other adults operate the same way.

 

And unless you're in the marriage as a partner - I'd be careful of making assumptions and guesses as to what is really going on.

 

If things are truly bad- an honorable person brings it up, discusses it, and leaves if there is no resolution. There's never a reason or justification for an affair, especially placing it on the back of the betrayed.

[woinlove]

One need only browse thru the Marriage forum here to confirm what AR is saying about how common it is for W's to shut off the sex with their H's.

 

Here are 5 such accounts I found on the first page alone -

 

"Don't love my wife or find her attractive anymore" (WhatASituation)

 

"going insane"; "how do you tell your wife your miserable" (A1135)

 

"How do you best explain to your partner that intimacy is important?" (Elliotte)

 

"Trying But Hurting" (belkin2)

 

"What can i do?" (h-cain)

 

I find it interesting that the very same BW's who blame everybody else but themselves on why their H's cheated ("the OW is amoral, damaged, predatory, narcissistic, etc.etc.etc." - "the CH has a character flaw, something's broken within him, he needs to do a lot of work on himself") are remarkably silent in these threads. The cheating couldn't possibly have ANYTHING to do with the lack of respect she has shown her H within their M for years on end, now could it.

 

I'd distinguish from the type of bait and switch the OP is talking about, where one has entered into an M under false pretences and is just being used for money, children, stability, etc. and a marriage that is entered into with love and the hope of it being a good M for both, but then erodes. I mentioned this in my earlier post, that I think a more common scenario is a couple responds poorly to new responsibilities, such as having children, doesn't communicate well, each copes in their own way, whether one turns off intimacy and the other turns off sex, or one walks away from parenting responsibilities and the other throws themselves into parenting then at the expense of the M, or one looks outside the M, etc.

 

Some of the stories you link to could have a second side where the sex disappeared after intimacy disappeared, or having a sense of sharing the demands and stresses disappeared. Others may be the W just withdrawing sex for selfish reasons. In any case, it is not clear any of them are of the deceptive, trick one into marriage type under false pretences. I do think the latter occurs, but I don't think it is very common. When it happens the best thing is to get out of the M as soon as possible.

 

For M where neither is getting their needs met, whether that be intimacy, sex, sharing, appreciation,... MC is likely urgently needed. Where one person is being selfish, MC may still be able to help, but if not, probably divorce should be taken.

 

I don't see this as a woman versus man thing. Men can trick women into marriage because they want a trophy but pretend they are going to be a loving husband until after the M, some men marry for money but do this deceptively, some men marry for other reasons deceptively. Either sex can marry deceptively for selfish reasons and either sex can withdraw from the M first.

 

I think people who think one sex has a monopoly on being poor marriage partners are typically speaking from a place of their own issues and not looking at the reality around them of both men and women being capable of behaving poorly or behaving well.

 

Or, this could be some carry-over from the OW/OM forum where the it seems some OW like to put down wives in particular, and not so much put down husbands. In any case, the reality is much more equal than just wives being the problem.

Edited September 24, 2012 by woinlove

[alexandria35]

To be fair most men that cheat are married to great women who desire sex and treat them great while the men married to witches who won't touch them bend over backwards to please their women. It's sad but some men who have a great woman don't really appreciate them. To me it should be the opposite. Not the cheating but go out of your way to please a woman who treats you well and dump a woman that mistreats you.

 

I very much agree with this. All the couples I know in real life where infidelity has occured the cheater has typically been the selfish self entitled one throughout the entire marriage where the BS has typically been the supportive and giving one. However I bet if you were to ask the AP about the cheaters marriage they would give an entirely different account based on what they were told by the cheater.

[AnotherRound]

I am not the only poster who made the same connections after reading many, many of your posts. This entire thread is founded on a premise that anti-woman. By you.

 

You may want to step back, take a breath, and see what the reason might be. ( because in your reply, again, you went after your MM's wife. Your bias and fascination with her is showing)

 

And also? As a current mostly SAHM- you do not actually respect them or understand them if you think what they do for their families and spouses has no monetary value. If my spouse had to pay people to do all that I do? It would be a check with a lot of numbers. LOL

 

What part of this are you NOT understanding? Did you trick your H? Did you lie to him and do a bait and switch on him? Promise to be in an intimate relationship with him and then change your mind after you got married? Did you dishonestly con him into marrying you under false pretenses?

 

If not - and I'm assuming not - this is not about YOU. It is not about ALL SAHMs. This is about women who lie, aren't honest about their intentions when they marry, then some of them become SAHMs (not all) and expect to have half of everything after THEY broke the vows in the first place! You can change it to husbands lying, getting married, and switching it up - I still feel the same exact way about the situation!

 

Seriously, you're being obtuse. If your husband broke the vows first, this does NOT apply to YOU. I'm not sure why you are taking this thread so personally, but if you think that my "bias" and whatever else you said is "showing through"... you might take a step back, bc your insecurity (with being a SAHM maybe? Heck if I know, bc you are all over this when it's not even the topic) is showing.

 

This was a VERY specific situation - switch the genders, I honestly don't care. It wasn't against women, or men, or marriage or anything. It was a very specific, hypothetical situation that resulted from MANY threads on the forums about wives withholding sex and emotional intimacy from their husbands after marriage, or after children, or after whatever their goal was (if that was their goal and NOT a true intimate relationship with their spouse).

 

If you want to read my threads and conclude that I'm anti- woman, then so be it, I couldn't care less, I know who I am, and you're dead wrong. But whatevs. BUT, if you can't stay OT, and stop trying to make everything about you (jesus), please, refrain from responding on my threads, as it does nothing to add to the discussion. I get the feeling that you want attention in this thread, and I'm not sure why you're hijacking my thread to get it... You can start your own thread about how great SAHMs are! I won't say a word on it, I promise! (as it's not an issue I care much about, tbh)!!!!

[AnotherRound]

I'd distinguish from the type of bait and switch the OP is talking about, where one has entered into an M under false pretences and is just being used for money, children, stability, etc. and a marriage that is entered into with love and the hope of it being a good M for both, but then erodes. I mentioned this in my earlier post, that I think a more common scenario is a couple responds poorly to new responsibilities, such as having children, doesn't communicate well, each copes in their own way, whether one turns off intimacy and the other turns off sex, or one walks away from parenting responsibilities and the other throws themselves into parenting then at the expense of the M, or one looks outside the M, etc.

 

Some of the stories you link to could have a second side where the sex disappeared after intimacy disappeared, or having a sense of sharing the demands and stresses disappeared. Others may be the W just withdrawing sex for selfish reasons. In any case, it is not clear any of them are of the deceptive, trick one into marriage type under false pretences. I do think the latter occurs, but I don't think it is very common. When it happens the best thing is to get out of the M as soon as possible.

 

For M where neither is getting their needs met, whether that be intimacy, sex, sharing, appreciation,... MC is likely urgently needed. Where one person is being selfish, MC may still be able to help, but if not, probably divorce should be taken.

 

I don't see this as a woman versus man thing. Men can trick women into marriage because they want a trophy but pretend they are going to be a loving husband until after the M, some men marry for money but do this deceptively, some men marry for other reasons deceptively. Either sex can marry deceptively for selfish reasons and either sex can withdraw from the M first.

 

I think people who think one sex has a monopoly on being poor marriage partners are typically speaking from a place of their own issues and not looking at the reality around them of both men and women being capable of behaving poorly or behaving well.

 

Or, this could be some carry-over from the OW/OM forum where the it seems some OW like to put down wives in particular, and not so much put down husbands. In any case, the reality is much more equal than just wives being the problem.

 

AGREE! I have no idea how some people got off the track on this one. This is exactly why I said "switch the genders, and I still feel the same". I just used wives as tricking bc I had been reading so many threads on the forums about wives doing the "tricking". I would feel exactly the same if the roles were reversed. I simply made it one way for simplicity - boy did that backfire! lmao

[eleanorrigby]

What part of this are you NOT understanding? Did you trick your H? Did you lie to him and do a bait and switch on him? Promise to be in an intimate relationship with him and then change your mind after you got married? Did you dishonestly con him into marrying you under false pretenses?

 

If not - and I'm assuming not - this is not about YOU. It is not about ALL SAHMs. This is about women who lie, aren't honest about their intentions when they marry, then some of them become SAHMs (not all) and expect to have half of everything after THEY broke the vows in the first place! You can change it to husbands lying, getting married, and switching it up - I still feel the same exact way about the situation!

 

Seriously, you're being obtuse. If your husband broke the vows first, this does NOT apply to YOU. I'm not sure why you are taking this thread so personally, but if you think that my "bias" and whatever else you said is "showing through"... you might take a step back, bc your insecurity (with being a SAHM maybe? Heck if I know, bc you are all over this when it's not even the topic) is showing.

 

This was a VERY specific situation - switch the genders, I honestly don't care. It wasn't against women, or men, or marriage or anything. It was a very specific, hypothetical situation that resulted from MANY threads on the forums about wives withholding sex and emotional intimacy from their husbands after marriage, or after children, or after whatever their goal was (if that was their goal and NOT a true intimate relationship with their spouse).

 

If you want to read my threads and conclude that I'm anti- woman, then so be it, I couldn't care less, I know who I am, and you're dead wrong. But whatevs. BUT, if you can't stay OT, and stop trying to make everything about you (jesus), please, refrain from responding on my threads, as it does nothing to add to the discussion. I get the feeling that you want attention in this thread, and I'm not sure why you're hijacking my thread to get it... You can start your own thread about how great SAHMs are! I won't say a word on it, I promise! (as it's not an issue I care much about, tbh)!!!!

 

I was twitching a little bit reading your remarks about SAHM's as well AnotherRound.

 

I could be wrong and completely misinterpreting you, but I don't feel/read/see much respect or regard for the job SAHM's do coming out in your posts.

If SAHM's is not part of the discussion, why bring it up?

[alexandria35]

One need only browse thru the Marriage forum here to confirm what AR is saying about how common it is for W's to shut off the sex with their H's.

 

Here are 5 such accounts I found on the first page alone -

 

"Don't love my wife or find her attractive anymore" (WhatASituation)

 

"going insane"; "how do you tell your wife your miserable" (A1135)

 

"How do you best explain to your partner that intimacy is important?" (Elliotte)

 

"Trying But Hurting" (belkin2)

 

 

 

"What can i do?" (h-cain)

 

I find it interesting that the very same BW's who blame everybody else but themselves on why their H's cheated ("the OW is amoral, damaged, predatory, narcissistic, etc.etc.etc." - "the CH has a character flaw, something's broken within him, he needs to do a lot of work on himself") are remarkably silent in these threads. The cheating couldn't possibly have ANYTHING to do with the lack of respect she has shown her H within their M for years on end, now could it.

 

And only one of those thread starters actually cheated, the rest have not. Which supports Woggles assertion that it's rarely the abused neglected husband who actually becomes a cheater. I was in a relationship for a couple of years where I was denied sex. I understand that sexual rejection goes far beyond sexual frustration. It hurts on a much deeper level. I didn't cheat. I ended the relationship.

[woinlove]

I very much agree with this. All the couples I know in real life where infidelity has occured the cheater has typically been the selfish self entitled one throughout the entire marriage where the BS has typically been the supportive and giving one. However I bet if you were to ask the AP about the cheaters marriage they would give an entirely different account based on what they were told by the cheater.

 

I think it is Spark (but may be remembering wrong) who says it is often the spouse who was giving less to the relationship who cheats. this doesn't apply to all situations, but I think it captures many because if one is giving a lot to the R, one is necessarily focussed on the R and invested in it. In a long M, my experience is an M can go through waves where one spouses gives more at some times and the other spouse at other times. Since we both never stop giving, I don't find the receiving end to be more enjoyable and fulfilling than the giving end. Without hearing from both spouses, it is difficult to know the whole story of giving and receiving in the examples mentioned here (not talking about deceptive bait and switch in falsely marrying - not much giving there at all from the deceptive one, just an act.)

[ComingInHot]

OpenBook:

 

Hey, hey now... I'm a BS and one that was NOT silent on this thread!!

 

As a matter of fact, I think I am one of some on here that made it a point that I totally grasp the concept of this thread being that man OR woman, or if you prefer, woman OR man, it doesn't matter. If you pretend, lie, hide before you are married about who you are and why you are marrying then make the promises during the covenant of the marriage ceremony w/no intention of keeping any of them, THEN that IS a breach of contract or as AR said breaking the vows... male or female which should or rather could that be argument for NOT splitting the assets fifty/fifty.

 

oh ya, I already gave my "pious, holier than thow, superior, bitter BS" answer like on the second or third page. LOL!! I'm a little feisty tonight... sincerely though Open Book, I mean no disrespect in any way**

[seren]

When I and my H said our marriage vows, there were a whole load of other things we 'vowed' I don't remember frequency or quality of sex being one of them, yet is seems to be the focus of this thread. IMHO to think that a relationship is good or bad depending on the sex life of the couple is not very understanding of the nature of what makes for a good or intimate relationship, it is also hugely stereotypical to assume that all A's are sexually motivated as much as to assume that all marriages where infidelity occurs are because of a lack of sex. To assume one, by association assumes the other.

 

I think that the relationships in a marriage get stretched and strained after the early days because life creeps in. For the man or woman staying at home all day taking care of the marital home an family the sameness can be boring, the lack of respect by people who don't value the role and yes, there are some who don't even in this enlightened age, can mean that they feel devalued. The one who goes out to work or is the main breadwinner may feel resentment, may come home and just want to chill or feel a sense of entitlement to going out and winding down, leaving the care giver at home. I don't call that breaking any vows, rather it's life, it's sad, but it is reality for some.

 

No one forces a person to stay in a marriage or relationship when they are unhappy, unhappy people don't remain where they are year on year, if they stay, it's because they are getting something from that relationship that satisfies their needs, if it isn't sex or intimacy, then it is something else. maybe getting one need met by one person and another by another is the basis for a person staying around, who knows. It is often said that it takes two to Tango and that works both ways. If one isn't meeting the needs of the other, whatever those needs be, they have the option of talking about it, of giving the other informed choice, as in, if the situation continues then I cannot stay and they work on it or they leave.

 

As an ardent feminist I would add, that this applies to both male and female. I stayed home when our son was young, it was a joint decision made by both partners in the marriage, namely me and H. I later had no problem being the main breadwinner when I returned to work while H took on more of the household tasks, again, a joint decision. The choices made within the marriage are made by both, choices being the main thing.

 

If I thought for one second that the only reason my H had an A was for sex then I would have left. If a lack of sex is a reason to have an A, then the marriage is on its arse anyway, a lack of intimacy, maybe. How totally disrespectful to think that a marriage or relationship hangs together simply based upon sex, if that were the case in my marriage I would run for the hills taking my special wardrobe with me. So many stereotypes it makes my eyes bleed.

[woinlove]

OpenBook:

 

Hey, hey now... I'm a BS and one that was NOT silent on this thread!!

 

As a matter of fact, I think I am one of some on here that made it a point that I totally grasp the concept of this thread being that man OR woman, or if you prefer, woman OR man, it doesn't matter. If you pretend, lie, hide before you are married about who you are and why you are marrying then make the promises during the covenant of the marriage ceremony w/no intention of keeping any of them, THEN that IS a breach of contract or as AR said breaking the vows... male or female which should or rather could that be argument for NOT splitting the assets fifty/fifty.

 

oh ya, I already gave my "pious, holier than thow, superior, bitter BS" answer like on the second or third page. LOL!! I'm a little feisty tonight... sincerely though Open Book, I mean no disrespect in any way**

 

Haha, and I think one can pick out stories of women being rejected by their husbands or denied sex/intimacy on the M forum too - so why isn't anyone calling out for BH here?

[AnotherRound]

Haha, and I think one can pick out stories of women being rejected by their husbands or denied sex/intimacy on the M forum too - so why isn't anyone calling out for BH here?

 

I didn't mention BHs simply bc the threads I was reading were all about the wives withholding sex AND EMOTIONAL INTIMACY. It wasn't all about sex (for the other poster).

 

Anyone can call out any gender on this thread. I was simply trying to simplify it - which obviously just seemed to confuse a WHOLE lot of people. I thought it would be simpler if I focused on one specific situation that I had read several threads about - but apparently, some people think that means I hate women, lmao.

 

I myself did not see any threads about husbands denying intimacy or sex - if I had, it might have changed my OP.

 

Seriously, some people are just LOOKING and scrutinizing for something to complain about, holy cow.

[AnotherRound]

I was twitching a little bit reading your remarks about SAHM's as well AnotherRound.

 

I could be wrong and completely misinterpreting you, but I don't feel/read/see much respect or regard for the job SAHM's do coming out in your posts.

If SAHM's is not part of the discussion, why bring it up?

 

I don't even remember how SAHMs even came into the conversation!

 

I think I am being misinterpreted, but as a feminist (yeah, not a woman hater, lol), I do have some opinions about SAHMs, but no bad ones, or judgments of them. The only thing I remember saying was that it was silly to stay home and raise children by your choice and expect to get paid for that. I think some interpreted it to mean that I thought that they didn't "deserve" 50% of the assets if they were married. My caveat to that was a SAHM that married UNDER FALSE PRETENSES, only to become a SAHM and had no intention whatsoever of fulfilling her role of intimate partner with her H (again, it could be a H against a wife here, just trying to simplify!), did NOT deserve 50% of anything. I believe the same way if it was a SAHD, who married under false pretenses, and then thought he deserved 50% of everything.

 

My whole point was, there are other ways to break vows in a marriage besides to have an affair. And, that often times, someone goes into a marriage with no intention of maintaining the intimacy (ie they don't like oral sex, but pretend to while dating, then stop as soon as they are married, OR they don't really enjoy sex, but pretend to, then stop once married, or once they have children bc that's all they REALLY wanted, etc.) but yet expects to get 50% of everything despite the fact that their marriage is null and void bc they were not HONEST about who they were, or what they wanted, or what they could/would provide in a marriage.

 

And my statement was that if someone (male or female) enters into a marriage ONLY to get what they want and has NO intention of fulfilling their partners needs (bc they are only doing so to get married, to get children, to get social status, etc) then they should forfeit ALL assets and the tricked spouse should get the children full time (or more time, or whatever). As in, they did not honor their vows first, sometimes even prior to the marriage, and yet expect to be treated "fairly" when the marriage ends. And, that I thought it was unfair that the tricked partner was forced to give up half of everything that they have worked for and built, and their daily access to their children bc the tricky spouse TRICKED them in some way.

 

*sigh* I don't know how else to explain it. But apparently, some people are really touchy about the fact that I have a different idea about being a SAHM (in that, it has never been something that I wanted, or desired, or wished to be). And I STILL think that you shouldn't expect to get "paid" to be a SAHM - I don't think that's anti-woman, I think that's honest in that the reward is the children themselves. And the choice is the mother's, and she chose to be a SAHM (wasn't forced, I hope), and that she chose knowing that it is not a "paying job". That in no way meant that if she and the H agree, and build something together, and agree that she is making a worthwhile contribution and want to split their assets 50/50 they shouldn't. I don't care! lol It doesn't affect me at all, and I honestly don't think about it that much bc it is not an issue for me, nor will it ever be.

 

Anyway, I'm done with this. I can't explain it anymore, it obviously confused a LOT of people, and the whole topic was lost long ago. I tried to get people that were offended to go and make a SAHM thread if they were interested in exploring that, but they didn't/wouldn't and continued to bring it here. And, if I brought it into the convo, I am sure sorry that I did, bc it derailed this thread BIG TIME, lol.

[seren]

I meant to add that as this thread is talking about vows, I am assuming this is about the vows spoken as part of the marriage ceremony and not the private promises made before the marriage by the couple. The one's that promised to talk about problems, the ones that said if one was unhappy or had fallen out of love or were in love with another that they would talk before being unfaithful. It is surprising how many people go into a marriage believing these promises will be adhered to before the legal and religious avowing. The first being the basis for the assumption that both partners were singing from the same hymn sheet, as it were.

 

What I don't understand is why so many people who are unhappy in the marriage or relationship don't just have the balls to say so, say what the consequences are, or say they want an A, leaving the other to have the same choice.

 

If my H let himself go, or suddenly stopped being intimate I would ask why? If it was that he had a problem with sex, then I would still love him, no matter what. I didn't marry a penis, I married the whole package, to cheat because one aspect of my life wasn't being met wouldn't say much about the depth of our relationship. The vow that mattered most to me was that of infidelity, yet it happened and we stayed, probably because we are realists, there was no because you had cancer and wasn't up for it for a few months I went out and found someone who would. The reason for the A went deeper than that. I wouldn't disrespect the OW nor respect my H to suggest or if he had used someone just for sex.

[eleanorrigby]

I think I am being misinterpreted, but as a feminist (yeah, not a woman hater, lol), I do have some opinions about SAHMs, but no bad ones, or judgments of them. The only thing I remember saying was that it was silly to stay home and raise children by your choice and expect to get paid for that. I think some interpreted it to mean that I thought that they didn't "deserve" 50% of the assets if they were married. My caveat to that was a SAHM that married UNDER FALSE PRETENSES, only to become a SAHM and had no intention whatsoever of fulfilling her role of intimate partner with her H (again, it could be a H against a wife here, just trying to simplify!), did NOT deserve 50% of anything. I believe the same way if it was a SAHD, who married under false pretenses, and then thought he deserved 50% of everything.

 

 

What about a SAH spouse that faithfully performed their duties as a SAH spouse, raising kids well, feeding them well, homework, the whole nine, but he/she didn't keep up their end of the bargain sexually? He/She should not have their fair share of the marital assets?

Edited September 24, 2012 by eleanorrigby

[eleanorrigby]

 

I said in another thread, that this should be grounds for divorce for men. And if this is their grounds, they should get 100% of the assets and the kids full time. Because entering into a contract with someone under false pretenses should make it null and void - and the victim shouldn't have to forfeit everything they love and own bc someone else failed to meet their end of the agreement. Thoughts?

 

 

You believe a spouse that stayed home with the children but didn't have sex with his/her husband should lose 100% of the marital assets and custody of the children?