Who broke the vows first?

[Decorative]

My spouse broke the vows. I never have. We have always had a very active sex life ( even during the affair, we had sex 4-5 times a week), I gave him affection and conversation and admiration.

 

He says quite freely- this was a "him" issue, and not a marital issue. No blame shifting.

 

Another Round- you should read Shirley Glass' psychological explanation of over benefitted partners. You might be surprised to see that many, many affairs occur with the person who gives less to the relationship being the cheater, not the reverse. Canuck princess - you may want to read that as well . Affairs are far more complicated than just "wifely duties".

 

My husband and I describe his issue as he was a bucket with a hole in the bottom. Nothing I was ever going to be able to do was going to fix that hole for him. It was always going to depend on him.

[canuckprincess]

My spouse broke the vows. I never have. We have always had a very active sex life ( even during the affair, we had sex 4-5 times a week), I gave him affection and conversation and admiration.

 

He says quite freely- this was a "him" issue, and not a marital issue. No blame shifting.

 

Another Round- you should read Shirley Glass' psychological explanation of over benefitted partners. You might be surprised to see that many, many affairs occur with the person who gives less to the relationship being the cheater, not the reverse. Canuck princess - you may want to read that as well . Affairs are far more complicated than just "wifely duties".

 

My husband and I describe his issue as he was a bucket with a hole in the bottom. Nothing I was ever going to be able to do was going to fix that hole for him. It was always going to depend on him.

 

 

I will look into it, and I'm well aware of the fact that even married couples with a good marriage cheat and not every situation is the same. Some fall in love with another person while they still love their spouse and enjoy there time together. I truly believe my situation is different from most, but I'm sure we all feel that way.

[AnotherRound]

My exh said to me one time in front of his gf, "if it wasn't for me you wouldn't have this house" to which I replied, "thats right if it wasn't for you I'd have a bigger better house" dumass! His gf laughed at him. Do you think your the only woman that can iron and get put stains out? Not only do I keep a very clean organized home but I can also satisfy my mm man in so many other ways.

 

If bs were so incredible and could take care of all their "wifely duties" then most of us wouldn't be here. I'm not suggesting that you aren't a great wife I'm just saying we can all be replaced. It happens in the workplace and it happens in the homes.

 

And sometimes, I think THAT is the bait and switch. In that, one spouse cannot keep up with all the roles that they are supposed to be filling. So, they let one (or more) roles slip. And it seems like often, the role that gets put away, is that of an intimate partner (either emotionally and/or physically). And to me, that is a disaster, as it such an important part of the relationship.

 

I think it happens more often to women, bc more is expected of them from marriage (cleaning, cooking, raising the kids, etc.) and they become exhausted and can't be the intimate partner that they agreed to be. And, in some cases, I think that they were probably aware of that before hand, but wanted to be married and be a mom so badly, that they just convinced themselves that was "okay" and "how it is". I think that's unfair.

 

In my world, I will do my best to keep up on things - I like a clean house and home cooked meals too. BUT, I will not let the intimate relationship die in favor of cleaning the house, cooking the meals, or raising the children. It would have to be balanced, and all the rest is moot anyway if there is NO relationship, imo. I would leave dirty dishes in the sink (and I HATE that!) if it meant that I would have the energy to give to my H - sexually and emotionally. I would let the kids be baby sat or go to daycare, if it meant that I could work and contribute financially so that my H didn't have the entire burden of that. On the flip side, I would expect him to do some of that too - cooking, cleaning, raising the kids. I would truly expect a 50/50 relationship. And yes, sometimes it would be uneven, but the goal would always be 50/50 WITH a solid intimate relationship at the base of it all.

 

I just think that there are times where someone goes in, KNOWING that they aren't going to be willing to provide this. But bc they want children, or to be married, they go in anyway, making promises that they cannot or do not intend to keep. Then, the other partner is forced to give up so much that they have helped create bc the other person is not maintaining the agreement - and that is NOT fair. And some of them then want 50% of everything, or more, even though THEY were the ones that didn't hold up their end of the agreement! That is ludicrous to me.

[AnotherRound]

My spouse broke the vows. I never have. We have always had a very active sex life ( even during the affair, we had sex 4-5 times a week), I gave him affection and conversation and admiration.

 

He says quite freely- this was a "him" issue, and not a marital issue. No blame shifting.

 

Another Round- you should read Shirley Glass' psychological explanation of over benefitted partners. You might be surprised to see that many, many affairs occur with the person who gives less to the relationship being the cheater, not the reverse. Canuck princess - you may want to read that as well . Affairs are far more complicated than just "wifely duties".

 

My husband and I describe his issue as he was a bucket with a hole in the bottom. Nothing I was ever going to be able to do was going to fix that hole for him. It was always going to depend on him.

d

 

I know it happens. Just, this thread was about a very specific issue that I had heard of and read about frequently lately. Thanks for the book suggestion though.

[Decorative]

I will look into it, and I'm well aware of the fact that even married couples with a good marriage cheat and not every situation is the same. Some fall in love with another person while they still love their spouse and enjoy there time together. I truly believe my situation is different from most, but I'm sure we all feel that way.

 

I actually don't feel my situation is different. I think my story, and my husband's affair? Are so boring and predictable that it is almost as if he followed a script. I don't think my situation is an exception. I think it's actually pretty close to a rule. LOL

[Silly_Girl]

Yes, I can see this point. I guess for me, I just see how unfair it is to expect the spouse that is being cheated out of a true relationship to "just walk away". As they have invested in the marriage too - financially (sometimes), with children, with the home, possibly shared businesses, etc. Especially if they were lied to, or tricked, or manipulated by the other partner about what the expectations of the marriage were.

 

Again, I would have never have stayed. But, I can understand why they stay - and I can see how unfair the whole thing is when someone is tricked (in some way or another) and then is expected to cut everything in half with the person who tricked them. And sometimes, they just don't see the incompatibility until there is already so much wrapped up in it. And that sounds pretty hard to disentangle from, frustration or not! And if it was me, I certainly wouldn't be happy about giving someone 50% of everything (and giving up 50% of my time with my children) bc they were dishonest and never intended or wanted an intimate relationship with me, but did want the benefits or social status of marriage.

 

It isn't fair at all. For sure. And it definitely happens. If there was enough sex to satisfy, and then there's not, that's a big issue and not something that should've ignored. Imagine that festering for a few years. Very sad. It needs to be addressed early though.

[woinlove]

My exh said to me one time in front of his gf, "if it wasn't for me you wouldn't have this house" to which I replied, "thats right if it wasn't for you I'd have a bigger better house" dumass! His gf laughed at him. Do you think your the only woman that can iron and get put stains out? Not only do I keep a very clean organized home but I can also satisfy my mm man in so many other ways.

 

If bs were so incredible and could take care of all their "wifely duties" then most of us wouldn't be here. I'm not suggesting that you aren't a great wife I'm just saying we can all be replaced. It happens in the workplace and it happens in the homes.

 

Again, I would disagree with your focus. Each person is responsible for their own actions. A person who chooses to cheat should accept responsibility for that choice, and besides the fact that there is a BS, a big part of that is what it does to the person who lies and deceives. I don't think anyone should be forced to lie and deceive by anyone, whether that person is take care of wifely duties or not. If someone wants to live honesty and authentically, that is their right and they can do that. If they choose to behave dishonestly, that is also their choice. But own it and don't shove it off on someone else as if you don't have any choice in how you behave.

[trinity1]

It isn't fair at all. For sure. And it definitely happens. If there was enough sex to satisfy, and then there's not, that's a big issue and not something that should've ignored. Imagine that festering for a few years. Very sad. It needs to be addressed early though.

 

Often the problem is this:

 

He didn't feel justification enough to end the marriage, he liked and respected her, loved her. He had heard that many men 'get no sex'

[trinity1]

It isn't fair at all. For sure. And it definitely happens. If there was enough sex to satisfy, and then there's not, that's a big issue and not something that should've ignored. Imagine that festering for a few years. Very sad. It needs to be addressed early though.

 

Often the problem is this:

 

He didn't feel justification enough to end the marriage, he liked and respected her, loved her. He had heard that many men 'get no sex'

 

and they feel it is just the fate of the married man, until it wears them down and they are vulnerable for having an EMR, and then they meet someone they fall in love with...

[AnotherRound]

It isn't fair at all. For sure. And it definitely happens. If there was enough sex to satisfy, and then there's not, that's a big issue and not something that should've ignored. Imagine that festering for a few years. Very sad. It needs to be addressed early though.

 

Agreed. I just think that it is sometimes, often, difficult to address early for a lot of reasons. One being that for some reason, some people believe that sexual intimacy and the emotional intimacy it fosters aren't "that" important to a relationship. Two, I think that men and women have been taught to "accept" that men have higher sex drives, and women have lower, and that is "just the way it is". So, some men certainly fear that it won't be any better with anyone else, bc they are truly convinced that women just "lose" their sex drive after they get married. And third, I think that often people hang in on something in the hopes that it will somehow get better, over time. And then, 20 years or whatever has passed, and there are children and so many other things, that it is all just so complicated.

 

I feel bad for anyone in a relationship that isn't meeting their primary needs. In my experience, that was more lonely than being alone. To have a partner right next to me but to feel that the divide between us was so large that I couldn't possibly reach across and touch him. It was miserable, and I am SO glad that I was able to see the incompatibility so early in the marriage - under 3 years, together about 7 at that point. And, that there were no children involved. SO glad that I held off on having children bc I wanted to make sure we were going to make the long haul before I did that! Phew on that one!

 

And, this can all go back to divorce for me too, in that so many people still believe that they should stick it out, no matter how unfulfilling it is. So they try - and eventually just become exhausted and spent and just can't do it any longer. And, again, why I think the entire institution of marriage needs to be reworked - to something more realistic and practical. I'm not sure how that would look, but there has to be a better way than what we have now!

[AnotherRound]

Again, I would disagree with your focus. Each person is responsible for their own actions. A person who chooses to cheat should accept responsibility for that choice, and besides the fact that there is a BS, a big part of that is what it does to the person who lies and deceives. I don't think anyone should be forced to lie and deceive by anyone, whether that person is take care of wifely duties or not. If someone wants to live honesty and authentically, that is their right and they can do that. If they choose to behave dishonestly, that is also their choice. But own it and don't shove it off on someone else as if you don't have any choice in how you behave.

 

Right. But in this thread, we are talking specifically about a BS that went into the marriage dishonestly, or didn't hold up their end of the agreement first. So, I think that takes a LOT of responsibility off of the WS in that the contract was ALREADY broken.

[woinlove]

Yes, I can see this point. I guess for me, I just see how unfair it is to expect the spouse that is being cheated out of a true relationship to "just walk away". As they have invested in the marriage too - financially (sometimes), with children, with the home, possibly shared businesses, etc. Especially if they were lied to, or tricked, or manipulated by the other partner about what the expectations of the marriage were.

 

Again, I would have never have stayed. But, I can understand why they stay - and I can see how unfair the whole thing is when someone is tricked (in some way or another) and then is expected to cut everything in half with the person who tricked them. And sometimes, they just don't see the incompatibility until there is already so much wrapped up in it. And that sounds pretty hard to disentangle from, frustration or not! And if it was me, I certainly wouldn't be happy about giving someone 50% of everything (and giving up 50% of my time with my children) bc they were dishonest and never intended or wanted an intimate relationship with me, but did want the benefits or social status of marriage.

 

Yes, for someone really tricked that is unfair and sounds comparable to cheating IMO, in that they were unsuspectingly presented with a false reality by their spouse. Just like I don't think revenge affairs are the answer to discovering infidelity, I don't think more deception is the answer. However if the switch-and-bait spouse is really without ethics and will just continue to pull more trickery, trying to be honest with them may not be the answer. Again, I could never stay married under those circumstances and would get myself the best lawyer I could. Also again, most cases where one might feel like there was some kind of bait and switch don't fall into this class, and it is often more a duet of not meeting each others needs and how the two handle that situation. But in the few cases where there is real trickery, I think the only solution is to plan an exit strategy as carefully and quickly as one can.

[Silly_Girl]

Agreed. I just think that it is sometimes, often, difficult to address early for a lot of reasons. One being that for some reason, some people believe that sexual intimacy and the emotional intimacy it fosters aren't "that" important to a relationship. Two, I think that men and women have been taught to "accept" that men have higher sex drives, and women have lower, and that is "just the way it is". So, some men certainly fear that it won't be any better with anyone else, bc they are truly convinced that women just "lose" their sex drive after they get married. And third, I think that often people hang in on something in the hopes that it will somehow get better, over time. And then, 20 years or whatever has passed, and there are children and so many other things, that it is all just so complicated.

 

I feel bad for anyone in a relationship that isn't meeting their primary needs. In my experience, that was more lonely than being alone. To have a partner right next to me but to feel that the divide between us was so large that I couldn't possibly reach across and touch him. It was miserable, and I am SO glad that I was able to see the incompatibility so early in the marriage - under 3 years, together about 7 at that point. And, that there were no children involved. SO glad that I held off on having children bc I wanted to make sure we were going to make the long haul before I did that! Phew on that one!

 

And, this can all go back to divorce for me too, in that so many people still believe that they should stick it out, no matter how unfulfilling it is. So they try - and eventually just become exhausted and spent and just can't do it any longer. And, again, why I think the entire institution of marriage needs to be reworked - to something more realistic and practical. I'm not sure how that would look, but there has to be a better way than what we have now!

 

I agree with your points AR, how and why it happens. I honestly believe people need to learn to be more accountable for their decisions and more proactive in their romantic relationships. There are no rules in relationships as such, in that there are general trends but we each have the ability (and right) to have the relationship we want/need, it's not arranged marriages we're talking about. We need to educate our children and teach them the value of communication and sexual/emotional intimacy.

[canuckprincess]

Again, I would disagree with your focus. Each person is responsible for their own actions. A person who chooses to cheat should accept responsibility for that choice, and besides the fact that there is a BS, a big part of that is what it does to the person who lies and deceives. I don't think anyone should be forced to lie and deceive by anyone, whether that person is take care of wifely duties or not. If someone wants to live honesty and authentically, that is their right and they can do that. If they choose to behave dishonestly, that is also their choice. But own it and don't shove it off on someone else as if you don't have any choice in how you behave.

 

I'm sorry I may not of come across the way I intended. I do own my share of the relationship I'm just saying in my situation all the blame is placed on me. The truth of the matter is if it wasn't me it would of been some other woman. If it had of been another woman it may not of turned into a LTA where hearts are hurting. I'm not proud that I hurt his wife but I'm not sorry for the choices I've made and continue to make.

[AnotherRound]

Yes, for someone really tricked that is unfair and sounds comparable to cheating IMO, in that they were unsuspectingly presented with a false reality by their spouse. Just like I don't think revenge affairs are the answer to discovering infidelity, I don't think more deception is the answer. However if the switch-and-bait spouse is really without ethics and will just continue to pull more trickery, trying to be honest with them may not be the answer. Again, I could never stay married under those circumstances and would get myself the best lawyer I could. Also again, most cases where one might feel like there was some kind of bait and switch don't fall into this class, and it is often more a duet of not meeting each others needs and how the two handle that situation. But in the few cases where there is real trickery, I think the only solution is to plan an exit strategy as carefully and quickly as one can.

 

Fair points. Imo, in a case of true trickery though, I would be pretty hesitant to walk away and "let" the trickster have half of everything, AND give up time with my children. I'm not sure how I would handle that, other than when it happened to me, I did walk away. But, it was a new marriage, not a lot invested, and no children. So, I imagine that would complicate things.

[woinlove]

Fair points. Imo, in a case of true trickery though, I would be pretty hesitant to walk away and "let" the trickster have half of everything, AND give up time with my children. I'm not sure how I would handle that, other than when it happened to me, I did walk away. But, it was a new marriage, not a lot invested, and no children. So, I imagine that would complicate things.

 

Yes, but continuing to live and share assets with a true trickster for decades sounds even less appetizing than figuring out a way to walk away with as much as one can as soon as one can.

[Spark1111]

I placed it here bc my question was in terms of affairs - in that, if someone is dishonest when entering the contract of marriage, and then does not hold up their end of that contract - is the WS really breaking any vows? Since the "BS" has already decided not to honor their own vows - wouldn't the contract be null and void PRIOR to the affair? And just bc the spouse that broke the vows first wants to hold the other person to their vows (despite defaulting themselves) - I think that's entitlement and delusion kicking in, bc it's obviously ludicrous to break your own vows but expect the other person to honor theirs to you.

 

But isn't another vow fidelity?

 

I do not subscribe that the breaking of one vow allows one to break all others?

 

That is what children do.

 

If you cannot fix it, then break all of them and leave and divorce.

 

Also, I agree with posters that you MUST take with a huge grain of salt whatever an AP says about the state of their sex life.

 

What person would hook a prospective partner by saying, my sex life at home is great, but I'd like to try you on for size because I am craving some new variety?

 

It would never happen.

 

My H told his fOW we never to rarely had sex, because to tell her the truth would have been ludicrous had he wanted to continue the affair.

 

We had sex twice a week during his affair, down from 4 to 5 times. He had started a new job and I thought the pressures of the position made him a little tired.

 

Newsflash: Women too grow bored with the same old, same old. We also grow disillusioned with the lack of effort and romance once the relationship has been officiated.

 

Both have to put effort into their vows: If he honors and cherishes me, he will continue to get all the sex he wants.

[woinlove]

I'm sorry I may not of come across the way I intended. I do own my share of the relationship I'm just saying in my situation all the blame is placed on me. The truth of the matter is if it wasn't me it would of been some other woman. If it had of been another woman it may not of turned into a LTA where hearts are hurting. I'm not proud that I hurt his wife but I'm not sorry for the choices I've made and continue to make.

 

I may not have been clear, I was responding to the part of your post where you seemed to give the WS a pass based on actions of the BS and was referring to the idea that WS need to take responsibility for their own choices (as does the BS). Of course the OW does too, but that isn't what I was thinking of when I wrote my response.

[ComingInHot]

Okay, I think I've got it now*

 

It took me a bit because the actual topic is something I am not "wired" to even remotely think of. So here goes...

 

I think that a person (male or female) that enters into a marriage under false pretenses is making a poor choice( in most if not all cases). It seems to me that it is a lie to begin w/and voids out any binding agreement through breech of contract.

 

If I ( and again, I only use myself & I can't even be hundred percent on that) but if I found a wealthy guy and wanted intentionally to marry him w/only the thought of pumping out a kid or two, then sit on my butt all day everyday not fufilling any of the marital vows because I married not for love but comfort, then I can say , I don't deserve anything of or from his assets. And shame on me for doing such a thing! I am so mad at me right now... lol!!

 

Is that what you're saying?**

[AnotherRound]

But isn't another vow fidelity?

 

I do not subscribe that the breaking of one vow allows one to break all others?

 

That is what children do.

 

If you cannot fix it, then break all of them and leave and divorce.

 

Also, I agree with posters that you MUST take with a huge grain of salt whatever an AP says about the state of their sex life.

 

What person would hook a prospective partner by saying, my sex life at home is great, but I'd like to try you on for size because I am craving some new variety?

 

It would never happen.

 

My H told his fOW we never to rarely had sex, because to tell her the truth would have been ludicrous had he wanted to continue the affair.

 

We had sex twice a week during his affair, down from 4 to 5 times. He had started a new job and I thought the pressures of the position made him a little tired.

 

Newsflash: Women too grow bored with the same old, same old. We also grow disillusioned with the lack of effort and romance once the relationship has been officiated.

 

Both have to put effort into their vows: If he honors and cherishes me, he will continue to get all the sex he wants.

 

You've missed the point again. Yes, there is a vow of fidelity... BUT, if one person went into the marriage without the true intent to fulfill ALL roles of the relationship, then there is no valid "marriage" bc the other partner agreed to something being presented to them - not the truth. So, the contract is null and void.

 

In this case, to expect them to give up half of everything and walk away happily is ludicrous. They should get 100% bc the other person had no intention of fulfilling their role. It's like they got married with their fingers crossed behind their back!

 

Staying is not "something a child would do". It's something that someone who has been tricked into a negative situation might do bc they aren't willing to give up half of everything in that case. And I don't blame them. Why should they give up half and lose daily access to their children when the other person was being dishonest?

[Got it]

This is where I think a prenup is helpful on all sides. While I have no desire to be a SAHM for the fears stated I do think one parent staying home can be very beneficial for the households and family. But I do think finances should be figured out when you still like each other assessing what each party holds important. I do agree in a 50/50 split in general regardless of divorce proceedings. But I have no issues with a gradual alimony either. But I do think a prenup and counseling before marriage is vital.

[2sure]

Anotherround...withholding sex definitely falls under the grounds of divorce commonly called irreconcilable Differences. Most people file for divorce using these grounds.

 

The awarding of assets is based on many different aspects of the marriage, and really can't be based on matters of opinion . If a man is withholding sex from his wife you are saying the wife should get 100% of the assets and child custody. What if he is withholding sex because she has become verbally abusive or emotionally vacant? You are saying he should be stripped of everything acquired during the partnership of the marriage including the children.

 

Many people cheat on their spouses even while having a great sex life at home...should a man that has great sex at home and with his OW then lose all of his assets and children in divorce?

 

I get what you're saying...if a partner changes so much from who they were when you are married, it can be a deal breaker. Sure it can and often is. But it is almost never black and white . What if , on the other hand...a couple decides together that one will stay home with their children while the other works a demanding but well paying job...this is a common mutual decision. One quits their job, giving up seniority or work experience. Then, the one working decides they don't like the deal and wants out. Isn't that changing the very terms they agreed on?

 

There are WS here Cheating because of lack of sex. Do any of them feel that divorce would be more likely if they were able to take all of the assets and the children away from their BS based on the the withholding of sex?

[carhill]

I do think a prenup and counseling before marriage is vital.

I agree with this perspective and, topically, submit that it is quite difficult to objectively do marital forensics to pinpoint with any real clarity which is agreed upon the actual point of where and who broke their vows first. As a wise person once told me, no one knows the inside of the M like the two people in the M. Those two individuals, as nearly any two individuals, will rarely agree as to one or the other being responsible for the inception of such a point in time and marital space. There is no 'proof', merely he said/she said.

 

What I learned from, and agreed with in, MC was that my exW and I were both responsible for the breakdown of the M and I was solely responsible for my choice to have an EA. She did not admit to/accept any impropriety/breakdown hence did not admit to any responsibility. This became our 'irreconcilable differences'. Life went on. I'm satisfied with the result.

[woinlove]

I do think a prenup and counseling before marriage is vital.

 

While I can see the merit in these, I had neither, and now after 25 years of M, would have to say some of what I might have thought important for a prenup would no longer be important. To me what matters the most is continual open and honest communication. For people that have difficulty with that, then counselling would be important. But if both people want to and do communicate openly and honestly, I wonder what counseling would add. In my own case, I'm sure it would not do harm, but given all the things one wants to do with our short time here, I don't think it would have been worth my time.

 

However, in some cases I do think one or both of these would help.

[Woggle]

A bit OT but why she is anti-woman if she is sympathetic to what men deal with in marriages? What wrong with being on the side of fairness instead of just rooting for your gender?