Can a 27 year old compete with a 21 year old girl?

[GorillaTheater]

What exactly do you mean, then, when you say that you still the 16 year old that she was when you met?

 

That I still see the 16 year old? Because her beauty, both inner and outwards, has never faded, even after 28 years of marriage, a bunch of kids, and some occasional hard times and hard feelings. Even after all we've been through, she's still the one.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

DY, I am confused. Wouldn't you prefer men to be with you for your personality and not your looks?

 

I want a man to be with me for both. I want a man that wants to be with me because he thinks I am sexy and beautiful and because he likes my personality.

 

I personally don't get telling women that they should feel good that their partners love them for example, their wonderful senses of humor (or whatever), but that he likes other women for their beauty and that you somehow expect that to keep a woman warm at night. I don't really get it.

 

If you are happy with your partner only liking your personality and not your looks, you are entilted to that. But I think most women have a strong desire to be found beautiful by the one man they choose to be with. She isn't asking the whole world to find her beautiful. She isn't asking every man on the planet to think she is beautiful. All she asks is for that one man to find her beautiful. And sure, maybe her wonderful senes of humor makes her more attractive in a companionship kind of way but that's not going to be much to keep a woman warm if he is also drooling over young women inbetween his appreciating of her "finer" qualities.

 

 

I

f he loves your personality, isn't the relationship more likely to endure, whether you are old, fat, paralyzed, a burn victim, etc?

 

Absoluetly. But we aren't simply talking about the personality componate of a relationship. We are talking about two elements that compromise the relationshp.

 

See this is what I don't get in this converastion. Women are regularly told not to be shallow and to be generous, warm and understanding toward their men even when their men are doing things that are hurtful. They are told to be these things and understand basically because men are men. Yet men are told no such thing in return. Men are told "Of course you like that, you're a man, that's perfectly natural." And women are told, "of course he likes that, that's only natural, it's up to *you* to grow beyond it." We hold women to a higher moral ground and expect women to be these strong, emotionally perfect creatures that are expected to be more highly evolved than their own partners. We tell women to change, shape and grow and we tell men that what they do is okay because they are men. We tell women that "too bad, it's not fair, but that's how it is" and we tell men "it's natural for you to like that/do that/see it that way."

 

No relationship is totally about personality. No relationship is totally about looks. When are we going to stop telling women that she must be above certain things while we excuse men on these same things and justify their behavior? Why do we expect women to be comforted by the idea that her partner needs to think of her when she was younger or that he will probably masturbate to 20 year olds even as they are both 40+ and that's suppose to be what? Inspiring for her? Uplifting? Positive? Make her feel closer to her partner or make her feel like doing thigns for him?

 

Why do we always say to women, "Well this is jsut how men are and *you* need to udnerstand and be better" and then we always tell men "It's okay that you like that/ are that way, you're a man, it's natural"?

 

Seems like a huge dysfunctional double standard. Maybe we do that because we don't expect as much from men to accomdate, compromise or work emotionally on themselves as we seem to expect women to do. Women are raised to put aside their own needs in favor of everyone else's. Women are raised not to step on anyone's toes or demand things they may want or need. "Good girls" are kind and don't cause too much trouble. They make other people feel good. Even if it doesn't make them feel good. Because we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. So in adulthood this issue still manifests itself when we basically tell men that they are just men and things are natural for them to do while we tell women to be more highly evolved and understanding in the face of what still isn't "fair".

 

There is nothing comforting about the fact that many men are more physically attracted to younger women. But it's a hard truth that most women eventually accept. Acceptance doesn't mean that we have to like it, but it doesn't mean we should suffer from it either. Pain is inevitable, but suffering is a choice.

 

How about for once teaching men how they can be better men Quiet Storm. YOu sure do love to *teach* women how they can be more like *you*. Well I don't want to be like you. I know you think you are *better* than me. I know you think you are *smarter* . The way you talk to me everytime we get into a discussion makes this obvious. But I am sorry but you have some major double standards about what you expect from men adn what you expect from women.

 

Funny how you always justify the way men are under what is natural yet you always ask women to change and adapt and work on themselves.

 

 

As women, we shouldn't base our value on what men think of us.

 

Who said I based my value on what men think of me? because I'm pissed about this topic? Lol.

 

 

At 50, I won't be conventionally "sexy" anymore and most men aren't going to look at me. Big whoop. I am valuable for other things, regardless. There are so many other ways that we can be meaningful to the people in our lives and so much that we can do and learn to feel confident and significant. When you fill your life with positive activities and people you love, not being valued for looks isn't that big of a deal.

 

Sounds like more of the same, "men will be men" and women are expected to batter adapt and change and grow.

 

If you are happy with your husband/partner thinking of you as a younger version of yourself just to sustain the relationship with you, more power to you. But if a man has to think of his partner as a younger version of herself just to stil lbe with her, I don't think that's exactly complimentary. Call me crazy like that.

 

 

W

e are worth so much more than our looks. If you can come to terms with this, the fact that men might not think you're hot when you age won't hurt so much.

 

Wrong. Women are worth so much more than our looks when we are dictating to other women that they sholdn't worry about their looks. But women are not worth more than their looks when talking about men and their needs. Which is why you continually try to *teach* other women about *growing* beyond their looks in ways you simply don't ask men to do.

 

Currently in your relationship right now, does your partner visualize you when you were younger Quiet storm? Also, does you masturbate or fantasize about women younger than you regularly?

[Disenchantedly Yours]

I'm not damaged, but The lyrics in the song sound silly to me. Maybe I'm missing something, but I want my husband to love me as I am now. I am proud of the person I grew into. Part of getting older is, hopefully, learning more, becomming more skilled at something, advancing at things. I believe my husband loves the woman I am now, and the woman I am now is not the exact same person I was when we first met.

 

Me too Angie. But apparently women are suppose to LOVE and be so HAPPY and kiss their husbands feet gratefully that they think of us as younger versions of ourselves just so they can still feel some attraction for us. And this is suppose to be romantic. Whatever.

[xxoo]

What exactly do you mean, then, when you say that you still the 16 year old that she was when you met?

 

We still see them that way. I have such a hard time really seeing that my partner has aged 20+ years.

 

This isn't so different from how I see my parents. To me, my dad will always be that strong, young man that I looked up to as a teen. I am shocked sometimes when the filters drop and I notice his thinning skin, and wrinkled jowls. I don't see him that way. He's larger than life to me.

 

Another person would see an old man.

[GorillaTheater]

Does physical attraction = value?

 

It isn't that he has to draw on images of when she was younger. It is that he literally does notice her age. Yes, he can see the lines, the grays, and the droop, but he sees it through the filter of love and doesn't notice them when he looks at her.

 

It is difficult for me to look at my H through objective eyes. When I do, I am sometimes shocked at his aging--aging I never notice in day to day interaction. In my eyes, he's still the "young man" I fell in love with.

 

This is it exactly, and I pity (mixed with a bit of anger, it's true) those who can't comprehend this. They don't know what they're missing out on.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

This is such utter crap, and shows by how many miles you're missing the point.

 

My wife is 48. When I look at her, I still see the breath-taking 16 year old I met many years ago. The song captured that quite well, and if you can't see it, you're damaged even more than I suspected.

 

Why can't you see her as a breathtaking 48 year old? Is she not as physically attractive to you anymore at 48? Or is she less physically attractive to you as 48 year old vs 16 year old version of herself?

 

I don't even understand why you get pissed at me for saying men judge women about ages and then you say things about how you still see her as a "breath-taking 16 year old".

 

And yes, I am damanged. Every person here is damanged. You included. Congrats on stating the obvious.

 

You are offende by what I said and I am offended by what you said. I don't really see the compliment in saying what you are saying.

 

You liked Quiet Storm's post and Quiet Storm said:

 

...because the relationship continuously evolves. Even when she's 70, the husband will have that memory/ visual of her when she was younger, and still value her.

 

 

So is that what you do with your wife at 48? YOu see her as 16 instead of 48? Why do you think that's a positive for a woman?

[Disenchantedly Yours]

This is it exactly, and I pity (mixed with a bit of anger, it's true) those who can't comprehend this. They don't know what they're missing out on.

 

Of course I am missing out. I didn't fall in love at 16. Apparently I am going to be hard pressed for anyone to find me attractive after a certain age since what men want are young women and as you get old, the memory of your youth.

[GorillaTheater]

Why can't you see her as a breathtaking 48 year old? Is she not as physically attractive to you anymore at 48? Or is she less physically attractive to you as 48 year old vs 16 year old version of herself?

 

I don't even understand why you get pissed at me for saying men judge women about ages and then you say things about how you still see her as a "breath-taking 16 year old".

 

And yes, I am damanged. Every person here is damanged. You included. Congrats on stating the obvious.

 

You are offende by what I said and I am offended by what you said. I don't really see the compliment in saying what you are saying.

 

You liked Quiet Storm's post and Quiet Storm said:

 

 

 

 

So is that what you do with your wife at 48? YOu see her as 16 instead of 48? Why do you think that's a positive for a woman?

 

I'd refer you to xxoo's post. She stated it more eloquently than I.

[GorillaTheater]

Of course I am missing out. I didn't fall in love at 16. Apparently I am going to be hard pressed for anyone to find me attractive after a certain age since what men want are young women and as you get old, the memory of your youth.

 

If that's what you want to believe and hear, then please be my guest. Far be it for me to attempt to convince you otherwise.

[123321]

No it wasn't. You distinctly thanked me for not making personal comments about her because of what you feared I would say due to what apparently other women have said to you about her. Your "evil" comment wasn't just about respecting your privacy

 

Actually yes it was, don't pretend to be inside my head because you most surely are not. I do admit that was a bit ambiguous the way I said it however. Consider it, again, made clear. For god sake.

 

I don't fear anything you say, but I do honestly fear violation of an innocent parties privacy. Enough on that I hope.

 

 

I didn't say anything negative about guys who date young Russians. I said my former friend that is now married to a Marine that is younger than her, her ex husband who is 50 and works at Home-Depot is in love with a 21 year old Russian girl that has asked him for money.

 

No, you didn't mention money at all, you said "and we all know what that's about" to paraphrase pretty closely. It was clearly a disparaging comment about the relationships older men might forge with younger Russian women and it hurt me deeply when I read it.

 

 

Funny how you think it's completely appropiate to talk at length about how you date younger women and have made a number of personal comments about older women but no one else apparently is not allowed to make distinctions between some older and younger men as well.

 

You should define "personal comments" and I wait to comment until you do.

 

As for the rest, I do date younger women, and I don't care if you talk about how you date hairy guys or tall guys or guys who wear dentures, a person expressing their preference isn't offensive per se. Is it?

 

Also, I have reasons for my preference, and I think it's OK to share that as well. However while I might say "many older women have kids" or "some older women will have baggage from past painful relationships" it would be offensive if I took away the many or some qualifiers and made it a flat blanket statement.

 

 

This is exactly what I am talking about. It's okay for you to make comments about younger women being better. YOu get all bent out of shape for women that may judge men that view women this way though. that makes no sense.

 

See above. I don't say they are better, I have preferences and reasons for the preferences, that's all.

 

 

You think it's hurtful for me to say that older men that specifically go for younger women when dating don't really seem to respect any woman all that much but you don't see the hurtfullness in your comments.

 

If you say "Sometimes", "Often", "some, "many", "a few" then it's not a hurtful blanket statement, it allows the reader to presume they are an exception.

 

 

YOu want to be able to make all kinds of comments and qualifications about younger and older women but you get all bent of shape when you hear a woman do it.

 

See above.

 

 

Well I am sorry, I don't think a man that thinks younger women are better, whether he is newly dating them or not, really respects women all that much.

 

See, this is a hurtful blanket statement. It hurts when you say that. It hurts a lot. Why not say "Some men" instead? Then I know you're not talking about ME.

 

 

And I don't really think it's a far stretch of reason to see why that is. You prize women and youthful looks. That's fine. But don't act like you are all "noble" and really value women ....

 

But I really DO value women and it kills me (figuratively speaking, not literally obviously) to have such hateful things said about me.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

123321

So if it's true then it's OK to be offensive, or if it's true then it's wrong to be offended? I'd like to know how this works. Please.

 

Because it really hurts when you say things like that without qualification with regard to the foreign women involved. I've dated a lot of foreign women and it shatters me to hear you say things like that about them and about our relationships. Heartbreaking really.

 

What is offensive about talking about a 50 year old man that works at Home-Depot that a 21 year old Russian girl is trying to get him to pay for her ticket there?

 

Where have I said anything about you and your relationships? Are you 50? Do you work at Home-Depot?

 

It really hurts when men *laminate* on how much younger women are better and how they will look to date younger women and this and that. But you don't care about that.

 

Love is so complex, I don't think it's possible for you to know that and it's gut-wrenching to hear that said about my beloved. I would say it's safe to assume her love for me transcends the merely physical, however.

 

I have no doubt her love transcends the mere physical. I also bet she doesn't have to visualize you as a younger man or richer man to be happy with you.

 

 

Well a lot of other people seem to think it's expressing a lovely sentiment in a beautiful way when he says she's still turning eighteen to him and still turns his head. It's a poetic way of saying she's still the woman he fell in love with all that time ago, and he still loves the mother of his children as if he was seeing her for the first time.

 

Seems to me that it's saying he only still loves her beacuse he can still see her as being young because he prizes her youth.

 

 

The horror.

 

I agree.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

If that's what you want to believe and hear, then please be my guest. Far be it for me to attempt to convince you otherwise.

 

That's basically what is being said so yes, thank you, I will believe it.

[angie2443]

We still see them that way. I have such a hard time really seeing that my partner has aged 20+ years.

 

This isn't so different from how I see my parents. To me, my dad will always be that strong, young man that I looked up to as a teen. I am shocked sometimes when the filters drop and I notice his thinning skin, and wrinkled jowls. I don't see him that way. He's larger than life to me.

 

Another person would see an old man.

 

Why is age so frightening? Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but there almost seems to be a fear, or disgust, or aversion (not sure of the right word) for sieng an older person one loves, as an older person. is it possible that it reminds you (general you) of your own aging, and the fact that you won't live forever?

[GorillaTheater]

That's basically what is being said so yes, thank you, I will believe it.

 

Although I'm wondering how xxoo's posts fit into your world view. Do you likewise find that she's over-valueing (sp?) youth to the detriment and denigration of men?

[xxoo]

Of course I am missing out. I didn't fall in love at 16. Apparently I am going to be hard pressed for anyone to find me attractive after a certain age since what men want are young women and as you get old, the memory of your youth.

 

People who fall in love at young ages do tend to see each other as those young people.

 

But most people fall in love as adults. Young is relative. If you fall in love at 35, he will still think of you as that "young" 35 year old when you are 55.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

ambiguous the way I said it however. Consider it, again, made clear. For god sake.

 

I don't fear anything you say, but I do honestly fear violation of an innocent parties privacy. Enough on that I hope.

 

Oh stop with the “ I fear you are going to post her picture” bullcrap. I am not interested in making fun of people. Especially people that aren't here. I have a strong code of ethics when it comes to posting other people's pictures without their knowledge and I am certainly not going to all the sudden change my code of ethics for the likes of you.

 

And I wouldn’t have to focus on this so much if you actually stated what was true. Which you don’t.

 

No

, you didn't mention money at all, you said "and we all know what that's about" to paraphrase pretty closely. It was clearly a disparaging comment about the relationships older men might forge with younger Russian women and it hurt me deeply when I read it.

 

 

Most 21 year old foreign women aren’t going to take an average 50 year old guy very seriously unless he makes significant money. In which case, she will want to be with him more for the money then actually liking him. There might be some cases where said women actually falls in love but rarely is she first starting a relationship with a man that old because of interest in him as a human being and not what his financial status can offer.

 

You should define "personal comments" and I wait to comment until you do.

 

You’ve made plenty of personal and judgmental comments about older women vs younger ones through out your history on LS. Next time I see one, I will be sure to clairify it better for you. Right now, I am not interested in searching through your posts.

 

Not to mention personal comments you've made about me from being everything from crazy to an idiot. But those comments where okay right?

 

 

As for the rest, I do date younger women, and I don't care if you talk about how you date hairy guys or tall guys or guys who wear dentures, a person expressing their preference isn't offensive per se. Is it?

 

You don’t just talk about how you date younger women 123. You think it defines you and regularly talk about it because you think it defines you as being “better” in some way.

 

 

Also, I have reasons for my preference, and I think it's OK to share that as well. However while I might say "many older women have kids" or "some older women will have baggage from past painful relationships" it would be offensive if I took away the many or some qualifiers and made it a flat blanket statement.

You should worry more about your own biology than a woman’s since older men’s sperm isn’t of the greatest quality. But that’s for you to figure out and worry about regarding your own offspring.

 

 

But I really DO value women and it kills me (figuratively speaking, not li

terally obviously) to have such hateful things said about me.

 

But it’s okay for you and other people to talk about why younger women are better and why men like them more. That’s not suppose to be hurtful....But we are expected to think you value women when you really seem to value younger women more. You're offended by me saying that but you said that when you date a new woman, you will go for a younger woman. So I don't really get it.You don't really seem too concerned about respecting women so much as you are about talking about younger women and how you like them better.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Why is age so frightening? Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but there almost seems to be a fear, or disgust, or aversion (not sure of the right word) for sieng an older person one loves, as an older person. is it possible that it reminds you (general you) of your own aging, and the fact that you won't live forever?

 

I so agree with this. Why would you need to see someone as their younger self if you loved them as they were?

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Although I'm wondering how xxoo's posts fit into your world view. Do you likewise find that she's over-valueing (sp?) youth to the detriment and denigration of men?

 

Becareful Gorilla, some LS posters are Spelling Bee champions and are looking for excuses to castrate you for it.

 

I don't really get XXOO's opinion anymore then the ones that agree with it.

 

I don't get how it's a positive to see someone you love as a younger version of themselves.

 

Despite your huge dislike for all things me, and how unreasonable you are when it comes to me, you can be a reasonable guy on things other that me. Do you think a lot of men treat women nicely based on the age factor? You read the topics here. You see the things men say. I am sure you know men in real life that say simliar things...maybe. How do you prepose a woman feel being told that a man will see her as a younger version of herself . Why is this suppose to keep a woman warm at night?

[Disenchantedly Yours]

People who fall in love at young ages do tend to see each other as those young people.

 

But most people fall in love as adults. Young is relative. If you fall in love at 35, he will still think of you as that "young" 35 year old when you are 55.

 

I don't want to be thought of a young anything when I am older. I want to be with someone that likes that I change with the course of life and is romantic about who I am in that moment. Not who I was.

[ThaWholigan]

I so agree with this. Why would you need to see someone as their younger self if you loved them as they were?

I fear you are taking that term a little too literally - I feel it's a figure of speech rather than looking at them and seeing their "younger" self, they are seeing the same essential presence that they saw when they first met. From then on, the connection is such that the age of that person is not the factor nor is it even in their minds - because that same essence is still there and present.

[xxoo]

Why is age so frightening? Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but there almost seems to be a fear, or disgust, or aversion (not sure of the right word) for sieng an older person one loves, as an older person. is it possible that it reminds you (general you) of your own aging, and the fact that you won't live forever?

 

It isn't a fear. It is just not seeing the aging.

 

Maybe it is seeing past the outside, into the soul. The soul doesn't age. And the soul takes on an appearance in our minds: the appearance that best represents the soul. Youthful--since the soul interacts with us in a youthful way, and reminds us of our own youth.

[GorillaTheater]

Becareful Gorilla, some LS posters are Spelling Bee champions and are looking for excuses to castrate you for it.

 

I don't really get XXOO's opinion anymore then the ones that agree with it.

 

I don't get how it's a positive to see someone you love as a younger version of themselves.?

 

You may not get it, and for that I'm sorry, but I wonder if you view her statement, with which I very much agree and understand, is some kind of evidence of misandry. If not, why not?

 

Despite your huge dislike for all things me, and how unreasonable you are when it comes to me, you can be a reasonable guy on things other that me. Do you think a lot of men treat women nicely based on the age factor? You read the topics here. You see the things men say. I am sure you know men in real life that say simliar things...maybe. How do you prepose a woman feel being told that a man will see her as a younger version of herself . Why is this suppose to keep a woman warm at night?

 

Two things at work here, I think:

 

1) You taking too much to heart what a handful of immature posters, and some others who are just goading you on, have to say on the subject and not relying enough on what real people in your life are saying. I love women (I get along great with the cream of the crop of female posters on LS, in my opinion), I love my wife, and I value all people (some more than others, but it's entirely independent of age).

 

2) Your worldview, which you are apparently loathe to reconsider, that men value youth and porn more than women as a whole. Do some men feel this way? Sure. Just as you'll find some women with lousy values. Do you diiferentiate between men with lousy values and all of the other men? Not a chance. THAT's what pisses me off about you. Because you seem smart enough that I would expect better.

 

But we've had this conversation before. For naught.

[123321]

Oh stop with the “ I fear you are going to post her picture” bullcrap

 

It's not bullcrap it's very real, and I did in fact discuss just that with a few people before I sent you the link via PM, they said that you were not likely, in their opinion, to violate a third parties privacy. That's rankly the only reason I sent you a link.

 

I take the privacy of others very seriously also.

 

By the way, what was the purpose of that photo?

 

 

I wouldn’t have to focus on this so much if you actually stated what was true. Which you don’t.

 

Sigh. See above, what I said is in fact true.

 

 

Most 21 year old foreign women aren’t going to take an average 50 year old guy very seriously unless he makes significant money. In which case, she will want to be with him more for the money then actually liking him.

 

Good job on the disclaimer. I would dispute that statement, however, for the general case. I've talked to a LOT of foreign women and while they all like my career once they find out about it, I have to say that's also been universally true for women I meet back home here in America.

 

For instance, a lovely young lass I met in the Philippines a few years back who in my estimation is hot enough to be a swimsuit model became involved with and married an American who was at the time an employee at a grocery store (name withheld) that is one of a national chain of such stores, and while that is not precisely Home Depot it's not far off.

 

She is now in the unenviable position of being an illegal alien because he took up the hobby of beating her and otherwise abusing her, but that's a different story.

 

 

There might be some cases where said women actually falls in love but rarely is she first starting a relationship with a man that old because of interest in him as a human being and not what his financial status can offer.

 

Again I beg to differ, for instance in the last place I stayed the neighbor a few doors down was an unemployed American fellow who was an ex-Walmart employee, being supported by his filipina GF while she put herself through school.

 

She clearly loved the guy for more than money as far as I can tell. Maybe he has a huge personality, who knows.

 

 

You’ve made plenty of personal and judgmental comments about older women vs younger ones through out your history on LS. Next time I see one, I will be sure to clairify it better for you. Right now, I am not interested in searching through your posts.

 

You realize that personal means referring to a specific person right?

 

 

Not to mention personal comments you've made about me from being everything from crazy to an idiot. But those comments where okay right?

 

Pretty sure those were coached in terms of "anyone who does X" or something similar, but I could be wrong.

 

 

You don’t just talk about how you date younger women 123. You think it defines you and regularly talk about it because you think it defines you as being “better” in some way.

 

No, but it does partially define how I date.

 

 

You should worry more about your own biology than a woman’s since older men’s sperm isn’t of the greatest quality. But that’s for you to figure out and worry about regarding your own offspring.

 

Which is moot since I have little soldiers in the freezer and a vasectomy. But thanks for the tip.

 

 

But it’s okay for you and other people to talk about why younger women are better and why men like them more.

 

Look at the title of the thread and then complain to the OP.

[xxoo]

I don't want to be thought of a young anything when I am older. I want to be with someone that likes that I change with the course of life and is romantic about who I am in that moment. Not who I was.

 

But we are just talking about the shell, not who you are and how you develop as a person.

 

Does he need to be fully aware of and actively attracted to every change that happens to your shell as you age? If he simply doesn't notice the changes, is that bad?

[123321]

Do you diiferentiate between men with lousy values and all of the other men? Not a chance. THAT's what pisses me off about you. Because you seem smart enough that I would expect better.

 

But we've had this conversation before. For naught.

 

What he said.

 

(Dear Fred: This is what cheer-leading looks like. )