Is SIN so ingrained in our being that we don't even SEE it?

[M30USA]

I am a believer, if you haven't guessed already, in the concept of radical depravity of the human heart. Most people tend to view sin as just isolated actions. They might view murder, theft, or adultery as ACTS of sin, but rarely go to the point of considering that the CORE BEING of all humans is radically depraved.

 

I believe this is because sin is so ingrained in our being that it affects even our ability to correctly view ourselves. It's much like a mental patient who cannot see his own mental disorder because his denial and unawareness is very part of the disorder.

 

It's also because our understanding of how God designed us to be is lacking. For example, we think that normal life is where we work, save money, provide for our family, compete in the business world, get promoted, enjoy our lives, etc, etc. And while it's hard to convince anyone that this is anythingo other than normal and good, if you could truly see the standard that God has set before us in the man of Jesus, you would realize almost all of our lives are nothing more than self-centered fodder. Even if we are doing things for our family/friends, it's still indirectly self-centered. God designed us to live for him, to give all to him, to love our neighbor as ourself, to follow him even unto death, to not desire anything in this world more than him at any time, and to not be at rest unless our soul is at complete fellowship with him.

 

When you talk about sin and how God designed us to be in THAT light, suddenly it's not so far-fetched to talk about the human heart as being radically depraved.

 

The downside to all of this is that, being radically depraved, we don't even possess the ability to change our hearts, to turn to God in a spirit of truth, or to even please God.

 

The upside is that God does it all for us. He has paid the price of our sin. The Bible says HE is the one who gives us a pure heart, and HE is the one (who via the Holy Spirit) allows us to please God. Otherwise, on our own, we would never be able to.

[pie2]

I agree M30. In addition to what you've written, I would say that part of the problem is that we often have nothing to compare ourselves to, and are unable to see how depraved we can be.

 

It's like a sunny day...if there are no rainy days to compare it to, you just take it for granted.

 

When God's light and power are erased from mainstream society, many people can't compare their own darkness to His light. So, naturally, we can't see sin's impact on our lives.

 

But the more time we spend contemplating God's wondrous love, the more clearly we can see how far we fall in comparison.

Edited October 2, 2012 by pie2

[pureinheart]

...and would also like to add, as this grieves my heart greatly, mainly because I see it in myself, is a lack of appreciation and taking too much for granted concerning all things:(

 

M30, just to get a better knowledge of you, would you mind if I asked a couple of questions? If you consider this intrusive, please just disregard:)

 

Have you ever been through the fire(s)? The "fires" I'm referring to is the one(s) where you either ask God to kill the flesh, or God asks you if your willing to go through the fire. Usually these types of fires are intense cleansings that lasts for months at a time accompanied with prayer and fasting. Severe hypersensitivity takes place.

 

Do you operate in any/all of the gifts?

[TaraMaiden]

Why do Christians look upon people as sinners who should be cleansed of their sins, rather than shining lights who just need polishing?

Why do Christians believe that the bad must be eradicated, rather than the good to be encouraged?

Why is everything painted in a "I'm bad, I must become Good" rather than, "I'm good, and i will make this outshine the bad?"

 

Why emphasise the negative and decide it must be expunged, rather than emphasising the present goodness and encouraging that to be prominent?

[TheFinalWord]

I am a believer, if you haven't guessed already, in the concept of radical depravity of the human heart. Most people tend to view sin as just isolated actions. They might view murder, theft, or adultery as ACTS of sin, but rarely go to the point of considering that the CORE BEING of all humans is radically depraved.

 

I believe this is because sin is so ingrained in our being that it affects even our ability to correctly view ourselves. It's much like a mental patient who cannot see his own mental disorder because his denial and unawareness is very part of the disorder.

 

It's also because our understanding of how God designed us to be is lacking. For example, we think that normal life is where we work, save money, provide for our family, compete in the business world, get promoted, enjoy our lives, etc, etc. And while it's hard to convince anyone that this is anythingo other than normal and good, if you could truly see the standard that God has set before us in the man of Jesus, you would realize almost all of our lives are nothing more than self-centered fodder. Even if we are doing things for our family/friends, it's still indirectly self-centered. God designed us to live for him, to give all to him, to love our neighbor as ourself, to follow him even unto death, to not desire anything in this world more than him at any time, and to not be at rest unless our soul is at complete fellowship with him.

 

When you talk about sin and how God designed us to be in THAT light, suddenly it's not so far-fetched to talk about the human heart as being radically depraved.

 

The downside to all of this is that, being radically depraved, we don't even possess the ability to change our hearts, to turn to God in a spirit of truth, or to even please God.

 

The upside is that God does it all for us. He has paid the price of our sin. The Bible says HE is the one who gives us a pure heart, and HE is the one (who via the Holy Spirit) allows us to please God. Otherwise, on our own, we would never be able to.

 

Yes, it's part of it. Man's natural proclivity is towards sin and he has a natural repulsion to subjecting to the Lord.

 

"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord."

 

We are literally slaves to the sin nature, until Christ free us.

 

"Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed."

 

A very interesting analogy when Saul was relieved of his blindness:

 

"Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him. And falling to the ground he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.”

 

“Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized;

 

The Holy Spirit, who witnesses about Christ, can remove the scales from our eyes and give us sight to see the truth about ourselves. Until then we are bound to the sin nature and blinded by its inherent carnal desires.

 

There's also a spiritual component. I spend months just studying this chapter bro. I think it really helped me understand a lot of things about the Christian philosophy. Let me know what you think.

 

http://www.hilltopbaptistnewport.net/King%20James%20Bible%20Audio/2%20Corinthians%2004.mp3

[M30USA]

...and would also like to add, as this grieves my heart greatly, mainly because I see it in myself, is a lack of appreciation and taking too much for granted concerning all things:(

 

M30, just to get a better knowledge of you, would you mind if I asked a couple of questions? If you consider this intrusive, please just disregard:)

 

Have you ever been through the fire(s)? The "fires" I'm referring to is the one(s) where you either ask God to kill the flesh, or God asks you if your willing to go through the fire. Usually these types of fires are intense cleansings that lasts for months at a time accompanied with prayer and fasting. Severe hypersensitivity takes place.

 

Do you operate in any/all of the gifts?

 

I just went through a huge fire. If you aren't familiar with it, you can read my previous posts. I don't want to complain, but suffice it to say, it was rough.

 

I operate, I believe, in the gift of discernment of spirits.

[M30USA]

Why do Christians look upon people as sinners who should be cleansed of their sins, rather than shining lights who just need polishing?

Why do Christians believe that the bad must be eradicated, rather than the good to be encouraged?

Why is everything painted in a "I'm bad, I must become Good" rather than, "I'm good, and i will make this outshine the bad?"

 

Why emphasise the negative and decide it must be expunged, rather than emphasising the present goodness and encouraging that to be prominent?

 

I'm just modeling my views after the man who was God in human flesh. His very first words were always "repent" before he even discussed the gospel. In the cases where he healed people, you will notice he didn't follow up by instructing them to do good, but rather to "sin no more". He clearly addressed the "negative"--as you called it. If God himself follows this approach, I think we ought to as well.

[Hawaii50]

What kills me is how you christians believe a sin is a sin is a sin.

 

As if a a boy who steals a chocolate bar is in the same light of your god as the pedophile-child murderer.

 

Sin is a stupid word, and I feel very strongly about using the word "Stupid."

[TaraMaiden]

Why do Christians look upon people as sinners who should be cleansed of their sins, rather than shining lights who just need polishing?

Why do Christians believe that the bad must be eradicated, rather than the good to be encouraged?

Why is everything painted in a "I'm bad, I must become Good" rather than, "I'm good, and i will make this outshine the bad?"

 

Why emphasise the negative and decide it must be expunged, rather than emphasising the present goodness and encouraging that to be prominent?

 

So no replies then?

 

Do I take it therefore, that Christianity is a deliberate 'sack~cloth & ashes', "I am not worthy!", "If crap comes my way, I deserve it!" discipline?

See, when M30USA posted a comment in a thread about Buddhism, I explained that Buddhism doesn't recognise the "Corrupted heart", because Buddhism acknowledges the inherent goodness in every being, rather than seeing the apparent ever-present bad, and therein lies the difference.

It's better to start from a foundation of goodness, and improve that, rather than dig for the perceived badness and poke that around....

 

And people have the gall to call Buddhism a pessimistic discipline....!

Edited October 2, 2012 by TaraMaiden
Posted during M30USA's post above.

[TaraMaiden]

I'm just modeling my views after the man who was God in human flesh. His very first words were always "repent" before he even discussed the gospel. In the cases where he healed people, you will notice he didn't follow up by instructing them to do good, but rather to "sin no more". He clearly addressed the "negative"--as you called it. If God himself follows this approach, I think we ought to as well.

 

You responded simultaneously to my post above, so sorry about that.

 

Christ's message was to love.

Love is a positive attribute.

Does not that include, primarily yourselves?

Should you not start from a position of affection and goodness?

Didn't God 'so love the world that he sent his only son?2

God didn't abhor the sinners so he sent his son in sacrifice...

 

The foundation of any human being is the gift and attribute and ability to love.

Unconditionally.

This is by far a better springboard to start from, rather than saying "You're so bad, you risk punishment."

[M30USA]

You responded simultaneously to my post above, so sorry about that.

 

Christ's message was to love.

Love is a positive attribute.

Does not that include, primarily yourselves?

Should you not start from a position of affection and goodness?

Didn't God 'so love the world that he sent his only son?2

God didn't abhor the sinners so he sent his son in sacrifice...

 

The foundation of any human being is the gift and attribute and ability to love.

Unconditionally.

This is by far a better springboard to start from, rather than saying "You're so bad, you risk punishment."

 

You are proposing what the modern world (and modern church) teaches, not what the Bible teaches. The modern church is so single-mindedly fixed on the "love revolution" concept that it fails to have a balanced view of who God is and how he operates. Likewise, it fails to understand how to deal with sin. It believes you can just talk about love, love, love and then all the worlds woes will go away. That's not how Christ spoke, it's also not how John the Baptist or Paul spoke. It's also not how every single prophet in the Old Testament spoke.

 

So it's fine to have these modern views. But just understand the Bible contradicts them. Jesus said to DENY THE SELF and to TAKE UP YOUR CROSS and follow him.

[TaraMaiden]

You are proposing what the modern world (and modern church) teaches, not what the Bible teaches.

so they don't use the Bible as the foundation of their teaching? Or are they all just getting it wrong and only you are correct?

 

The modern church is so single-mindedly fixed on the "love revolution" concept that it fails to have a balanced view of who God is and how he operates. Likewise, it fails to understand how to deal with sin. It believes you can just talk about love, love, love and then all the worlds woes will go away. That's not how Christ spoke, it's also not how John the Baptist or Paul spoke. It's also not how every single prophet in the Old Testament spoke.

Well maybe it's time such teachings were reviewed. if the Church feels that a more positive twist is a better interpretation - maybe you too, should review your interpretation. They can't all be wrong, to your singular 'right'....

 

 

So it's fine to have these modern views. But just understand the Bible contradicts them. Jesus said to DENY THE SELF and to TAKE UP YOUR CROSS and follow him

 

Looks like you're a lone voice crying in the wilderness. However, given your bitter experiences (and no, I'm being neither sarcastic nor cruel) it's hardly surprising you interpret things so negatively and pessimistically.

It's your choice to consider the Biblical message in the light you view it in. And the church has that right also.

But I would say you are outnumbered.

 

They may have a point.

[TheFinalWord]

I'd really like to know why you had the gall to argue with me when I said a while back that Christianity had an undercurrent of self-denigration. M30's "depraved heart" rant which you just agreed with is the embodiment of what I was talking about.

 

Hey quickjoe,

 

You are probably right. I apologize Probably just a mix-up in words on my end. I never meant to argue with you. It was probably a misunderstanding on my end.

 

I believe M30USA is a Calvinist? I'm not. I align more with Arminianism. But I always try to find some point of agreement with various denominations. Here's the difference:

 

Calvinism and Arminianism - An Easy Explanation and Comparison of Calvinism and Arminianism

 

Here is the thing. I am not going to argue about words anymore. If you want to go ahead, but to me it's pointless and just goes on and on, makes people mad, and gets no one anywhere. In one thread I referenced Paul in his second epistle to Timothy:

 

"Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will."

 

That's a commandment for me, not you obviously. But I think that it is good for me to adhere to it. It's why I said, okay atheism is however you want to define it. The concept of depravity is theological. If you want to call it self-denigration, okay. I'm not going to defend definitions anymore. The concepts are there if people want study the theology I will give resources. If someone is open to learning, I will give them my perspective.

[pureinheart]

I just went through a huge fire. If you aren't familiar with it, you can read my previous posts. I don't want to complain, but suffice it to say, it was rough.

 

I operate, I believe, in the gift of discernment of spirits.

 

Thanks M30...just need to know so that I could respond more concerning where you are at:)

 

Thinking you are referring to the struggle with home sitches? I am so sorry about that

[TheFinalWord]

Hey quickjoe,

 

Another thing I wanted to say:

 

Thanks for always engaging with me in these threads. It may not always seem like it, but I am grateful for your feedback and replies.

 

I like to think that I have evolved (no pun intended ) in my responses. For some of them, when I look back I think I could have done better. For example, in the creation/evolution one on here right now, I don't like how I responded to you. I apologize for coming across in an inflammatory way.

When my beliefs are attacked, my first reaction is to go into defense mode. For me, God has done so much in my life and I love the Lord so much, it's like a natural reaction. But God has really used this forum to teach me to stop, step back, and not let my emotions get the better of me. I am still a work in progress, but I have seen growth in myself. My prayer is to ask God if a response to a post is an opportunity to witness or am I just looking to defend my ego. I have failed in this before and I know I will again. But dialoguing with you and other non-believers have helped to refine me and for that I thank you. I thank you for your patience with me. I am trying honestly to learn how to engage in conversations with non-Christians that are more fruitful and bring glory to Christ and not me.

 

"The Jews therefore marveled, saying, “How is it that this man has learning, when he has never studied?” So Jesus answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority. The one who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory; but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood."

 

Christ executed this perfectly, never gave glory to Himself, but always reflected the Father's Will perfectly. As a Christian I strive to be like Christ and desire to do this as well. My main goal in these dialogues is to become more like Christ and to seek to honor God and not myself. This forum and you in particular have helped me grow (I think) in this area. Thanks for that.

 

It is also true that I am still learning more about God and that my understanding of scripture is still in infancy and I have probably said inconsistent things in the past. I am constantly trying to seek God and (nothing I posted on here, but have wrote about in my personal devotions ) studying 2 Corinthians and 1 John the past few months has solidified some topics for me. So if I said something different in the past, I apologize for the confusion.

 

Anyway, that's just a personal "blog" if you will. Sorry for hijacking your thread M30USA.

[pureinheart]

You responded simultaneously to my post above, so sorry about that.

 

Christ's message was to love.

Love is a positive attribute.

Does not that include, primarily yourselves?

Should you not start from a position of affection and goodness?

Didn't God 'so love the world that he sent his only son?2

God didn't abhor the sinners so he sent his son in sacrifice...

 

The foundation of any human being is the gift and attribute and ability to love.

Unconditionally.

This is by far a better springboard to start from, rather than saying "You're so bad, you risk punishment."

 

For me it is about balance and being realistic. To acknowledge one without the other is swinging that pendulum too far in one direction and creates confusion.

 

I think personality plays a part too, for instance when I minister to others there is a tendancy to focus more on love and encouragement because it's usually very hurting people that seek assistance...they donot need to be hurt further IMO and will turn you off like a light at the hint of condemnation. Most people are already aware of their sin and failures due to conviction from the Holy Spirit and I make a TERRIBLE Holy Spirit.

 

There have been people that I have ministered to also that operate in a great deal of pride and arrogance, finding fault with anything and everything. These are very hurting people also, although have not come to the end of themselves in various issues. These I would prefer not to deal with and just pray for as my mouth does get the best of me and I end up turning them off.

 

God meets us where we are at and puts people in our way according to the message we need to hear at that point in time...that's my take anyway.

[M30USA]

Looks like you're a lone voice crying in the wilderness.

 

Hmm...

 

“I will send my messenger ahead of you,

who will prepare your way”

3“a voice of one calling in the wilderness,

‘Prepare the way for the Lord,

make straight paths for him.

 

Mark 1

[M30USA]

So no replies then?

 

Do I take it therefore, that Christianity is a deliberate 'sack~cloth & ashes', "I am not worthy!", "If crap comes my way, I deserve it!" discipline?

See, when M30USA posted a comment in a thread about Buddhism, I explained that Buddhism doesn't recognise the "Corrupted heart", because Buddhism acknowledges the inherent goodness in every being, rather than seeing the apparent ever-present bad, and therein lies the difference.

It's better to start from a foundation of goodness, and improve that, rather than dig for the perceived badness and poke that around....

 

And people have the gall to call Buddhism a pessimistic discipline....!

 

Any rational, logical person would conclude based on your comments that you are either not a believer in God's Word or you are simply unaware of God's Word.

 

Inherent goodness in every human being? What?

 

“There is no one righteous, not even one;

[sIZE=2]11 there is no one who understands;

there is no one who seeks God.

12 All have turned away,

they have together become worthless;

there is no one who does good,

not even one.”[b]

13 “Their throats are open graves;

their tongues practice deceit.”[c]

“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”[d]

14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”[e]

15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;

16 ruin and misery mark their ways,

17 and the way of peace they do not know.”[f]

18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[g][/sIZE]

[M30USA]

Don't confuse what I'm saying with the idea that God loves us and that we are to love each other. Just because humans are desparetely wicked (all of us), that doesn't mean God doesn't love us, and it doesn't mean we can't love each other. But let us not mesh over human sin and the true state of our lives just because of this nebulous, feel-good "love revolution" idea. The fact that God loves us is more of a testimony of HIS glory than ours. We don't deserve the love of God. Yet he is awesome because he loves us anyway. It's about him.

[TheFinalWord]

For me it is about balance and being realistic. To acknowledge one without the other is swinging that pendulum too far in one direction and creates confusion.

 

I think personality plays a part too, for instance when I minister to others there is a tendancy to focus more on love and encouragement because it's usually very hurting people that seek assistance...they donot need to be hurt further IMO and will turn you off like a light at the hint of condemnation. Most people are already aware of their sin and failures due to conviction from the Holy Spirit and I make a TERRIBLE Holy Spirit.

 

There have been people that I have ministered to also that operate in a great deal of pride and arrogance, finding fault with anything and everything. These are very hurting people also, although have not come to the end of themselves in various issues. These I would prefer not to deal with and just pray for as my mouth does get the best of me and I end up turning them off.

 

God meets us where we are at and puts people in our way according to the message we need to hear at that point in time...that's my take anyway.

 

haha perfect timing ...just came up on my feed today:

 

[pureinheart]

What kills me is how you christians believe a sin is a sin is a sin.

 

As if a a boy who steals a chocolate bar is in the same light of your god as the pedophile-child murderer.

 

Sin is a stupid word, and I feel very strongly about using the word "Stupid."

 

Wow, H50, this is deep and I'm going to "try" to tackle this one...please correct me - anyone- k:D

 

Prior to salvation (accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior) all sin is sin and carries the same consequence, which is eternal separation from God, and in essence that is what hell is, eternal separation from God.

 

Now after salvation, IMO sin isn't just sin any longer, and even though all sin is covered under salvation (the Blood) there are still consequences concerning just doing what you want without disregard to God and His mandates. THIS I know very well, it's called chastisement. God deals with His people first. He's our Father and as a Father, does discipline...lol...there is a Divine Woodshed and it's got my name all over it, "PIH was here, a lot". Also there are crowns and rewards after I think the Final Judgement? This is for another post though.

 

Now there is Gods Grace and He must have a lot of it because I have done more to deserve no Grace than anyone ( The Apostle Paul said that he was the chief of all sinners and he is on a much higher caliber than I, so that makes me the second:D ).

 

Now we are all going to sin and mess up everyday and in fact God expects it because we are in "human" form and imperfect. He expects us to try and grow in Him, and want to say He does cut us a lot of slack (I know this firsthand) and knows our hearts and why we do the things we do- He knows the motive behind the motive.

 

Ok, like my past for instance, there were certain things that happened as a kid that caused me to act out and "sin" a lot. This was not understood until recently. God is so understanding and knows us much better than we know ourselves. He's not a God that sits up in heaven pointing His finger waiting for us to fail...He gives us a way of escape.

[pureinheart]

haha perfect timing ...just came up on my feed today:

 

 

This is cool, and want to say I love to watch him minister:)

[pie2]

Now there is Gods Grace and He must have a lot of it because I have done more to deserve no Grace than anyone ( The Apostle Paul said that he was the chief of all sinners and he is on a much higher caliber than I, so that makes me the second:D ).

 

I'm tied with you PIH!

 

What kills me is how you christians believe a sin is a sin is a sin.

 

Christians follow Jesus' command to obey two mandates:

1. “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment."

2. "And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” (Matthew 22:36-40).

 

So naturally, anyone who sins is breaking one or both of Jesus' commands. Also, God's ways are not our ways. His understanding of a human sin is much wiser and greater than our understanding ever could be. Therefore, Christians leave the ultimate judgement of a person's soul up to God, regardless of our own personal opinion of how "bad" a certain sin is.

 

I'm not sure that "a sin is a sin is a sin" is accurate. God may base his discipline/punishment/interventions (or lack thereof) on numerous factors, including the individual's strength of spirit, the ways that God can be glorified in the situation, the sin itself (though I can't begin to know how God really works, I can only base my point of view from a human perspective). In other words, not every situation is created equal (just the opposite, in fact).

[todreaminblue]

I am a believer, if you haven't guessed already, in the concept of radical depravity of the human heart. Most people tend to view sin as just isolated actions. They might view murder, theft, or adultery as ACTS of sin, but rarely go to the point of considering that the CORE BEING of all humans is radically depraved.

 

I believe this is because sin is so ingrained in our being that it affects even our ability to correctly view ourselves. It's much like a mental patient who cannot see his own mental disorder because his denial and unawareness is very part of the disorder.

 

It's also because our understanding of how God designed us to be is lacking. For example, we think that normal life is where we work, save money, provide for our family, compete in the business world, get promoted, enjoy our lives, etc, etc. And while it's hard to convince anyone that this is anythingo other than normal and good, if you could truly see the standard that God has set before us in the man of Jesus, you would realize almost all of our lives are nothing more than self-centered fodder. Even if we are doing things for our family/friends, it's still indirectly self-centered. God designed us to live for him, to give all to him, to love our neighbor as ourself, to follow him even unto death, to not desire anything in this world more than him at any time, and to not be at rest unless our soul is at complete fellowship with him.

 

When you talk about sin and how God designed us to be in THAT light, suddenly it's not so far-fetched to talk about the human heart as being radically depraved.

 

The downside to all of this is that, being radically depraved, we don't even possess the ability to change our hearts, to turn to God in a spirit of truth, or to even please God.

 

The upside is that God does it all for us. He has paid the price of our sin. The Bible says HE is the one who gives us a pure heart, and HE is the one (who via the Holy Spirit) allows us to please God. Otherwise, on our own, we would never be able to.

 

 

What will change your heart forever is when you experience sins that are committed against you its easy to say all is sin.... we all sin....we have impure thoughts we do wrong things..... we are not the christ..we will not achieve perfection in this mortal life nor were we meant to......

 

 

 

Jesus had atrocious sins committed against his mortal body of which he eventually died and was resurrected complete....what really lets you know sin in all its profound nastiness...is when it is done to you...and when you go through those trails that arent just rough but potentially lethal to your heart....then you understand what it means to sin .....you also understand more about your own heart when you undergo life changing and heart threatening circumstance..

 

i will judge no one not one person......what sins have been committed against me has made me want to help people do you know what message i want or need to spread......one of hope one of love...how my faith has got me through...not sinner beware.....but come on we can do this i did it with faith i survived, so can you.....and i am a sinner too...... will be till its my time to go....adn one day ill be judged for all my sins....but also fro what i have done and received nothing in return other than helping someone and knowing that i did i made someones life a bit more hopeful....

 

 

 

gods words contained in the bible are for hope....they talk of sin....sure.... the predominant message in the bible to me it is one of altruism, sacrifice forgiveness and repentance..Jesus being the ultimate example of sacrifice dying along side of murderers and forgiving them on the cross he was nailed to.......the bible words speak of finding the lost and saving their hearts for the people going through trials not to give up to keep moving to have hope....otherwise all the people in the world who have sin committed against them have no hope.....there is justice and it is with gods hands it will come to pass.....he will judge who has sinned we don't need to even think about that....he is capable of knowing the true hearts of men.....all men....didn't jesus say i could be wrong but this comes to mind.....

 

Be fishers of men.....

 

meaning give them the plan of salvation which is a plan of hope...not judgement.that comes into it with repentance but hope is always first..but i am not learned of the bible i have read some not all.....i have just had to go through trials of faith i guess.....faith has saved this heart and body for whatever reason god wants me here....deb

[pureinheart]

Hey quickjoe,

 

Another thing I wanted to say:

 

Thanks for always engaging with me in these threads. It may not always seem like it, but I am grateful for your feedback and replies.

 

I like to think that I have evolved (no pun intended ) in my responses. For some of them, when I look back I think I could have done better. For example, in the creation/evolution one on here right now, I don't like how I responded to you. I apologize for coming across in an inflammatory way.

When my beliefs are attacked, my first reaction is to go into defense mode. For me, God has done so much in my life and I love the Lord so much, it's like a natural reaction. But God has really used this forum to teach me to stop, step back, and not let my emotions get the better of me. I am still a work in progress, but I have seen growth in myself. My prayer is to ask God if a response to a post is an opportunity to witness or am I just looking to defend my ego. I have failed in this before and I know I will again. But dialoguing with you and other non-believers have helped to refine me and for that I thank you. I thank you for your patience with me. I am trying honestly to learn how to engage in conversations with non-Christians that are more fruitful and bring glory to Christ and not me.

 

"The Jews therefore marveled, saying, “How is it that this man has learning, when he has never studied?” So Jesus answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority. The one who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory; but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood."

 

Christ executed this perfectly, never gave glory to Himself, but always reflected the Father's Will perfectly. As a Christian I strive to be like Christ and desire to do this as well. My main goal in these dialogues is to become more like Christ and to seek to honor God and not myself. This forum and you in particular have helped me grow (I think) in this area. Thanks for that.

 

It is also true that I am still learning more about God and that my understanding of scripture is still in infancy and I have probably said inconsistent things in the past. I am constantly trying to seek God and (nothing I posted on here, but have wrote about in my personal devotions ) studying 2 Corinthians and 1 John the past few months has solidified some topics for me. So if I said something different in the past, I apologize for the confusion.

 

Anyway, that's just a personal "blog" if you will. Sorry for hijacking your thread M30USA.

 

The bolded sentance spoke to me bigtime, and felt a very possitive conviction.

 

You know FW, in thinking whenever I'm convicted by the Spirit it's a sweet sorrow, a wonderful sorrow. That sounds weird, but it is so peaceful and the revelation of a wrongdoing/sin is so welcome.

 

Condemnation has a different feel about it, and we know that condemnation is of the enemy, "now therefore there is no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus"...awesome FW, thank you:)

 

I too was in the middle of a slight meltdown due to something I am passionate about, and was able to edit it in another section of LS, my words made me feel bad and were over the top condescending and unbecoming...thank God for the edit feature:o

 

I'm sure M30 doesn't mind a bit:)