Is SIN so ingrained in our being that we don't even SEE it?

[TaraMaiden]

I truly, genuinely feel sorry for M30USA - or indeed anyone - when they feel that first and foremost they are spoiled, tainted, unworthy, wretched and corrupted.

It is, to use Buddhist parlance - Wrong View. It is clouded by wrong perception, illusion and to be honest - Ego.

To view one's self primarily as defective, faulty and in need of OUTSIDE redemption and forgiveness, is an abdication of responsibility, while at the same time, a focus on the egoic self as needing attention.

[TheFinalWord]

I too was in the middle of a slight meltdown due to something I am passionate about, and was able to edit it in another section of LS, my words made me feel bad and were over the top condescending and unbecoming...thank God for the edit feature:o

 

I'm sure M30 doesn't mind a bit:)

 

Visual aid

 

The Gospel of John - Part 5 of 12 - YouTube

 

I feel ya. You have no idea how many times I've written up a response, hit preview, left, came back and decided not to hit "submit".

 

"For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and sea creature, can be tamed and has been tamed by mankind, but no human being can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse people who are made in the likeness of God. From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers, these things ought not to be so. Does a spring pour forth from the same opening both fresh and salt water? Can a fig tree, my brothers, bear olives, or a grapevine produce figs? Neither can a salt pond yield fresh water."

 

Nah, it's all good. In retrospect, I came across as way too inflammatory. I need to take a bit of a step back because I shouldn't be getting hung up on the past and dredging up old disputes.

 

Thanks friend! You have an amazing memory and probably remember what I said better than what I do!

[M30USA]

I truly, genuinely feel sorry for M30USA - or indeed anyone - when they feel that first and foremost they are spoiled, tainted, unworthy, wretched and corrupted.

It is, to use Buddhist parlance - Wrong View. It is clouded by wrong perception, illusion and to be honest - Ego.

To view one's self primarily as defective, faulty and in need of OUTSIDE redemption and forgiveness, is an abdication of responsibility, while at the same time, a focus on the egoic self as needing attention.

 

I'm not arguing against your views--just that they are contradictory to Scripture, that's all.

 

And you shouldn't feel sorry for me. Paul said that affliction, suffering, and weakness are all BLESSINGS because they make us rely upon God more and cause us to not get attached to a world that is passing away.

[TaraMaiden]

I'm not arguing against your views--just that they are contradictory to Scripture, that's all.

 

And you shouldn't feel sorry for me. Paul said that affliction, suffering, and weakness are all BLESSINGS because they make us rely upon God more and cause us to not get attached to a world that is passing away.

we also recommend detachment, because attachment - and clinging - to any specific notion as being sacrosanct and all-defining, is limiting.

Reliance on anything outside of ourselves is fraught with hazards and uncertainty.

 

We are even encouraged to view Buddhist teachings as "A raft" which we use to 'get from one side of the river to the other' - but once we have reached the opposite shore, you don't need it any more.

[M30USA]

Reliance on anything outside of ourselves is fraught with hazards and uncertainty.

 

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding..." (Proverbs 3:5)

 

"There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death." (Proverbs 14:12)

[TaraMaiden]

yeah, you can throw biblical references to me all you like, but they're not your words - you're just being a parrot mouthpiece for a hunk of literature I already think is damaging your psyche, so I'd ask you to quit, really, because it serves no purpose.

It jut proves to me that you subscribe to a mental conditioning that reinforces your warped belief that you are unworthy.

Which is a crime against humanity.

[M30USA]

yeah, you can throw biblical references to me all you like, but they're not your words - you're just being a parrot mouthpiece for a hunk of literature I already think is damaging your psyche, so I'd ask you to quit, really, because it serves no purpose.

It jut proves to me that you subscribe to a mental conditioning that reinforces your warped belief that you are unworthy.

Which is a crime against humanity.

 

So at least the vast difference between your view and Scripture is apparent for everyone to see. I didn't know you were already aware of the difference, and that's all I was getting at.

 

The Bible says that the truth (especially the Gospel) is "foolishness to those who are perishing". It also says the Word is "veiled" to those who are perishing. But for those who believe, the Bible says it has the power to save--and that, ironically, is why it's "good news".

[TaraMaiden]

I'm not interested in the bible, what it says and why.

What I'm most interested in, is that it has solidified a view in your mind that you are corrupted, unworthy, low, sinful tainted and unworthy.

I think ANY Holy Book that seeks to reinforce that view and opinion in its followers is a seriously flawed piece of literature....

 

But as I, you and others have pointed out, this is just your viewpoint, because other factions do not hold to that view.

so in summary, I think, as you appear to be in the minority, even here - you've got it wrong.

And that's a shame, because as far as I and others are concerned, what you think, is not accurate.

[M30USA]

I'm not interested in the bible, what it says and why.

What I'm most interested in, is that it has solidified a view in your mind that you are corrupted, unworthy, low, sinful tainted and unworthy.

I think ANY Holy Book that seeks to reinforce that view and opinion in its followers is a seriously flawed piece of literature....

 

But as I, you and others have pointed out, this is just your viewpoint, because other factions do not hold to that view.

so in summary, I think, as you appear to be in the minority, even here - you've got it wrong.

And that's a shame, because as far as I and others are concerned, what you think, is not accurate.

 

I think our concepts need to be clarified. When you say "inherent goodness" in all people, that is partly true. We are made in the image of God and therefore share part of his glory. However, as recorded in Scripture, we have fallen and this image has been corrupted. So, even though we are still made by God, creates in his image, and like him in many ways...we are told by Scripture that we are currently living in the time where we have not been redeemed and made good by his transformation of our hearts.

[HisGraceisSufficient]

I'm not interested in the bible, what it says and why.

What I'm most interested in, is that it has solidified a view in your mind that you are corrupted, unworthy, low, sinful tainted and unworthy.

I think ANY Holy Book that seeks to reinforce that view and opinion in its followers is a seriously flawed piece of literature....

 

But as I, you and others have pointed out, this is just your viewpoint, because other factions do not hold to that view.

so in summary, I think, as you appear to be in the minority, even here - you've got it wrong.

And that's a shame, because as far as I and others are concerned, what you think, is not accurate.

 

Tara,

 

I used to adhere to Buddhist teachings and I was agnostic for many years. Many of the things you have said were actually agreed upon, at one time, in my heart. The humanistic belief that "man is good," is generally accepted in this day and age, as I clung to it passionately as a psychology student.

 

I thought it was psychologically dysfunctional to believe one is flawed, unworthy, tainted, corrupted and low. I looked down on people who believed this and felt sorry for them. I wanted to "save" them so I constantly went on forums speaking out against perceived harm that religion was doing to these individuals.

 

So, for someone like me to agree with M30USA is quite a miracle! When you speak to M30USA, perhaps you assume he/she has low self-esteem or has been negatively affected by such thoughts as "unworthy, corrupted, low." But, I am sure he/she has freedom from self and experiences:

 

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23

 

M30USA and I are new creations in Christ and we do not walk in shame or guilt. But, "Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom." 2 Corinthians 3:17

 

“The Christian does not think God will love us because we are good, but that God will make us good because He loves us.” CS Lewis

[TaraMaiden]

Tara,

.......I thought it was psychologically dysfunctional to believe one is flawed, unworthy, tainted, corrupted and low.

I don't think that at all.

I looked down on people who believed this and felt sorry for them. I wanted to "save" them so I constantly went on forums speaking out against perceived harm that religion was doing to these individuals.

I wouldn't patronise M30USA in that way, or even suggest I was looking down on him, and think him flawed. I'd just like him to think for himself rather than take everything that is written in the Bible, verbatim.

 

.....When you speak to M30USA, perhaps you assume he/she has low self-esteem or has been negatively affected by such thoughts as "unworthy, corrupted, low." But, I am sure he/she has freedom from self and experiences:

Unfortunately, you'd be incorrect. I'm not about to speak out and reveal his past experiences, but they are recent, raw and extremely hurtful. You only need to check his posting/thread history (a simple check on your part would have given you his gender) to know that he has had an extremely sad and nasty experience, and although this is just my view, I personally am of the opinion that it has indeed had some influence on his outlook. I have a great deal of sympathy for the man and what he had to endure.

 

“The Christian does not think God will love us because we are good, but that God will make us good because He loves us.” CS Lewis

 

CS Lewis also said,

"You don't have a soul.

you have a Body.

You are a Soul."

 

Which is another fairly beautiful phrase.

 

Both are flowery and romantic though, and I don't subscribe to such sentimental schmaltz if it means it undermines the very existence of a person and reduces them as a human being in their own eyes, to the level of something below par. A human being with limitless potential doesn't deserve to be fed a nonsense that an outside source, which is both unseen and unheard, is ultimately responsible for either improving them, or forgiving them for the imagined defect of 'sin'.

[HisGraceisSufficient]

What are some of the consequences that you perceive would transpire if a person believes he or she is corrupt or lowly? You obviously don't like the idea so how do you think it limits or harms (if applicable) a person?

[TaraMaiden]

I believe it cripples their potential and limits their outlook.

Call someone an idiot for long enough, they begin to believe it. This is what constant derision and undermining does to people. It keeps them subdued.

 

it is - to an extreme - the weapon of the abusive bully, who uses verbal and emotional means to dominate and overpower their victim.

 

It erodes self-esteem and takes all personal power away from the victim, rendering them insecure and unsure of themselves, and makes them believe they are incapable of functioning on their own, or of making any decision without consulting their abuser. in fact, they dare not even think in those terms.

[HisGraceisSufficient]

I believe it cripples their potential and limits their outlook.

Call someone an idiot for long enough, they begin to believe it. This is what constant derision and undermining does to people. It keeps them subdued.

 

it is - to an extreme - the weapon of the abusive bully, who uses verbal and emotional means to dominate and overpower their victim.

 

It erodes self-esteem and takes all personal power away from the victim, rendering them insecure and unsure of themselves, and makes them believe they are incapable of functioning on their own, or of making any decision without consulting their abuser. in fact, they dare not even think in those terms.

 

How does it cripple their potential? How does it erode self-esteem? Are you saying most or some Christians are insecure and unsure of themselves?

[TaraMaiden]

How does it cripple their potential? How does it erode self-esteem?

Go to an Abused Women's shelter and ask them.

 

Are you saying most or some Christians are insecure and unsure of themselves?

No. I'm saying I believe M30USA is.

[TheFinalWord]

I believe it cripples their potential and limits their outlook.

Call someone an idiot for long enough, they begin to believe it. This is what constant derision and undermining does to people. It keeps them subdued.

 

it is - to an extreme - the weapon of the abusive bully, who uses verbal and emotional means to dominate and overpower their victim.

 

It erodes self-esteem and takes all personal power away from the victim, rendering them insecure and unsure of themselves, and makes them believe they are incapable of functioning on their own, or of making any decision without consulting their abuser. in fact, they dare not even think in those terms.

 

I think what is being discussed here is just doctrine of sin for the most part. I certainly don't see myself as any hand-cap victim in the slightest. If you saw me in real life you wouldn't think many people could overpower me considering I'm about 225lb bodybuilder I do believe that God is the source of my strength that much is sure. But God isn't abusive at all. He's kind and long suffering. I have never had so much joy since accepting the Lord into my life.

 

Before I came to Christ, I was extremely addicted to drugs. Jesus Christ set me free! Christ did not limit my potential, He unleashed it! I was a drug user and complete loser. More than once I should have been shot in some of the crime infested areas I frequented. Since Christ, I am now a research scientist with unlimited potential so you won't find many people (even the atheists in my college coming to me for advice) considering me an idiot. So, I don't see myself as a victim, but a victor. Not someone in chains and unable to think for myself, but free in Christ to move any mountain in life (and I've seen God do that about a million times). Not someone with no self-esteem, but someone who can do all things in Christ, who strengthens me! I could go on, but my chains are broken, praise God, I am not under a yoke of bondage, but have life flowing through my veins thanks to the precious blood of Jesus, who has made me a new creature. Thank you Father for the gift to be called a son of the Living God!!! :):):):)

[TaraMaiden]

Yes, but we've already agreed that your PoV differs from that of M30USA, so I really wasn't giving my personal opinion of how I felt your attitude was 'marred'....

 

I'm of the opinion that M30USA has an extreme attitude towards sin and sinners and that he does himself a gross disservice. My points earlier in the thread elaborate on this.

[TheFinalWord]

Yes, but we've already agreed that your PoV differs from that of M30USA, so I really wasn't giving my personal opinion of how I felt your attitude was 'marred'....

 

I'm of the opinion that M30USA has an extreme attitude towards sin and sinners and that he does himself a gross disservice. My points earlier in the thread elaborate on this.

 

I adhere to the doctrine of sin as well, but to me it's just reality of the human condition. I don't know about M30's day to day life, but he does seem to take a walloping in this forum. I don't know if he walks around with low self-esteem, he's just giving his doctrinal perspectives of sin from what I can see.

 

At least that's been my take. But you seem to go back and forth with him a lot, so maybe you know more about him in real life? Maybe we can take M30USA to a revival?

 

I do know that trials come in this life and God uses those to temper us and build our faith. It's not some desire for pain, that's a gnostic principle which Paul refuted in the New Testament. Trials are a source of growth for a Christian. But a Christian should have victory in life. It's through the trials we have that God's power is manifest and the glory of the Son of God is revealed. The passion of Christ, for example. Christ went through a tremendous test and passed it, by offering his sinless life for us. Through His trial He has brought life to us all. He told us In this world we will have tribulation, but to rejoice because He has overcome the world. Christ told us to rejoice in the trials we face, and to rejoice when we are rejected for His name b/c our reward will be great in Heaven. This world is fallen, but when we keep our mind fixed on Him, he witnesses to our hearts that heaven is the destination which gives peace that passes understanding. Many preachers remind us to be "kingdom minded" and to keep our eyes on the prize. Paul compared it to an Olympic race. Run the race, fight the good fight of the faith. We don't do it out of fear, but out of gratitude to God and for our great love for Him. Not necessarily what you asked for, and kind of all over the place, but I just want to give another Christians perspective on sin and how it all fits in.

[M30USA]

yeah, you can throw biblical references to me all you like, but they're not your words - you're just being a parrot mouthpiece for a hunk of literature.

 

We are all bodies which are vessels for spirits, ideas, and principals. Nobody's views are their own. Yours aren't. Mine aren't either. Nihil novus sub solus. Don't pretend that you are original and I'm not. All one can hope in this world is to merely allow the truth to reside in us.

[M30USA]

What are some of the consequences that you perceive would transpire if a person believes he or she is corrupt or lowly? You obviously don't like the idea so how do you think it limits or harms (if applicable) a person?

 

A landmark study just found that, contrary to previously held belief, school-aged bullies actually have higher than average self esteem and self perception--not low self esteem. Consider that in light of the discussion here.

 

And whatever "negative consequences" the other posters think might arise from a self-depracating worldview, it really doesn't matter since this is the ONLY view which, according to the Bible, leads to repentance and then salvation.

Edited October 4, 2012 by M30USA

[M30USA]

I don't know about M30's day to day life, but he does seem to take a walloping in this forum.

 

Almost every time in the Bible (with a few minor exceptions) when a prophet or teacher speaks the absolute, unadulterated truth of God's Word, he is either laughed, condemned, or driven away.

 

Jesus said to rejoice when people persecute you because of him and his Gospel.

[TheFinalWord]

Almost every time in the Bible (with a few minor exceptions) when a prophet or teacher speaks the absolute, unadulterated truth of God's Word, he is either laughed, condemned, or driven away.

 

Jesus said to rejoice when people persecute you because of him and his Gospel.

 

Yeah, I hear you. I don't think people are getting on you b/c of your religion, they are tying your outlook on sin with your personal situations. Do you see it that way?

 

I can see where they are coming from, I just don't think putting you on constant defense is helping much. Meh, what do I know lol I just know in my life, when I am hurting, I need love, and for someone else to be patient with me even if I go on tirades. I do think you need some serious love right now bro, I just think people are trying to help you. Just not sure the way they're going about it is that edifying. Anyway...Romney/Obama debate time

[M30USA]

Yeah, I hear you. I don't think people are getting on you b/c of your religion, they are tying your outlook on sin with your personal situations. Do you see it that way?

 

I can see where they are coming from, I just don't think putting you on constant defense is helping much. Meh, what do I know lol I just know in my life, when I am hurting, I need love, and for someone else to be patient with me even if I go on tirades. I do think you need some serious love right now bro, I just think people are trying to help you. Just not sure the way they're going about it is that edifying. Anyway...Romney/Obama debate time

 

My recent circumstance didn't cause me to have these views. I've had them for a long time. These views have actually HELPED me get THROUGH this difficult time, whereas I'm sure I would have suffered a breakdown otherwise. Again, truth always succeeds. And even if we lose as a result of the truth, it still sets us free from whatever we face.

[TheFinalWord]

My recent circumstance didn't cause me to have these views. I've had them for a long time. These views have actually HELPED me get THROUGH this difficult time, whereas I'm sure I would have suffered a breakdown otherwise. Again, truth always succeeds. And even if we lose as a result of the truth, it still sets us free from whatever we face.

 

If it helps you brother. I accept your response. I am praying for you friend, for strength to get through this. God Bless you my brother.

[M30USA]

If it helps you brother. I accept your response. I am praying for you friend, for strength to get through this. God Bless you my brother.

 

Obama/Romney debate?