Is SIN so ingrained in our being that we don't even SEE it?

[M30USA]

Lao Tsu - The tao Te ching - written around the 6th century BC, in ancient China.

 

The prophet Muhammed (PBUH) - The quran - The Revelation of the book Quran Started around the year 610CE.

 

The tanakh - Based on the Masoretic Text in Hebrew, which dates back to 600-900 CE

 

The New Testament: the contents of the New Testament deal explicitly with 1st century Christianity

 

Tipitaka - Buddhist Pali scriptures - committed to writing during the Fourth Buddhist Council in Sri Lanka in 29 BCE. However, the buddha was born between 600-500BC. Various collections of his teachings were passed down by oral tradition, and first committed to writing about 400 years later.

 

Therefore most if not all religious and spiritual works pre-date the Bible you follow. So to state that Buddhist teachings are 'consistent with the bible' is actually declaring the reality 'about-face'.

 

'The Bible is consistent with many, more ancient scriptures, and echoes their wisdom'.

 

Would be more accurate.

 

Incorrect notion. You would be correct if we lived in a naturalistic, closed-chain system. However, if there exists entities from outside our system (ie, angels) then the argument of what came first as being the original is invalid. All it would take is a revelation from outside the system (at any time) for the truth to be revealed. This is what the Bible claims for itself: that the Scriptures were given to us by the "sons of God" (ie, angels). The Bible, frankly, agrees with the fact that other religions came first. Abraham came from Ur, a city of pagans. God drew Abraham out of this pagan city to make a people for Himself.

 

So your notion is only correct if we live in a naturalistic, closed-chain system. And you obviously assume at the outset that we do, since you propose that argument.

[M30USA]

(continuation of last post)

 

Yet another assumption you are making is that we know ALL of world history. Which we don't. For all we know, the Word of God might have been around before all these other religions. In fact, Genesis states this. Initially, mankind was created with the knowledge of God and in fellowship with Him. Then after the fall, we developed other idolatrous religions and began to use His name in vain. Then the Flood came along and wiped pretty much everything away. However, mankind's paganism lived on. But looking back, we ONLY see the post-Flood religions and assume that these early non-Cristian/Jewish religions were the originals--whereas they are merely the first that secular history has RECORD of.

 

Again, there are numerous assumptions in your position that I'm not even sure you're aware of.

[TaraMaiden]

Incorrect notion. You would be correct if we lived in a naturalistic, closed-chain system. However, if there exists entities from outside our system (ie, angels) then the argument of what came first as being the original is invalid. All it would take is a revelation from outside the system (at any time) for the truth to be revealed. This is what the Bible claims for itself: that the Scriptures were given to us by the "sons of God" (ie, angels). The Bible, frankly, agrees with the fact that other religions came first. Abraham came from Ur, a city of pagans. God drew Abraham out of this pagan city to make a people for Himself.

 

So your notion is only correct if we live in a naturalistic, closed-chain system. And you obviously assume at the outset that we do, since you propose that argument.

 

Oh, no, Stop right there...

See, we were having a relatively reasonable discussion until you lost the plot and went into la-la-land....

Either be sensible or see a psychiatrist, because this is floating into the realms of delusion.

Jeesh.....

 

I can't discuss anything credible of any measure with someone who believes in such idiocy... this is utterly ludicrous.

[mercy]

I have now had opportunity to watch this video.. thanks! JP is a talented Preacher! I have not really watched him but I will be more open to him now.

 

Creflo opened up a new yearning in my soul in his teaching because of the afore mentioned resource, Righteousness and The Law.. (could not find whole links on Youtube. CLUE: I think it maybe a four parter in it's entirety)

 

From taking in Creflo's teaching, I am looking forward to the prophesied time we shall enjoy life without sin, much muchly more freely.

 

Overall, I have concluded that sin (including ignorance of what is sin) and also being easiiy offended are the two things which need to cease from this Earth.

 

Those embroiled in these things seem to be directly part of the problem.

 

Take care,

Eve x

 

Oh, I wish so bad you would have ended this post with a, 'can I get a witness!'

 

Because I'm right here saying, AMEN SISTER!

[TheFinalWord]

I have now had opportunity to watch this video.. thanks! JP is a talented Preacher! I have not really watched him but I will be more open to him now.

 

Creflo opened up a new yearning in my soul in his teaching because of the afore mentioned resource, Righteousness and The Law.. (could not find whole links on Youtube. CLUE: I think it maybe a four parter in it's entirety)

 

From taking in Creflo's teaching, I am looking forward to the prophesied time we shall enjoy life without sin, much muchly more freely.

 

Overall, I have concluded that sin (including ignorance of what is sin) and also being easiiy offended are the two things which need to cease from this Earth.

 

Those embroiled in these things seem to be directly part of the problem.

 

Take care,

Eve x

 

JP has some good stuff. One of my favs:

 

[TheFinalWord]

I LOVE your story...what a great picture of coming from destruction, and finding new life in Christ! I really think that faith in God has the best track record for successfully breaking free from addiction.

 

I really like this one

 

Talk about ingrained in sin! Enjoy...

 

[pie2]

I really like this one

 

Talk about ingrained in sin! Enjoy...

 

 

 

I especially the part about the police officer's attitude of leniency in this situation (no offense to officers, it just doesn't seem to be the norm).

 

Popping up on YouTube was a video from

(KORN guitarist), who has quite the story as well. He came to my church about a year ago (with Ryan Ries) and was involved with the

movement (very impactful).

[M30USA]

Oh, no, Stop right there...

See, we were having a relatively reasonable discussion until you lost the plot and went into la-la-land....

Either be sensible or see a psychiatrist, because this is floating into the realms of delusion.

Jeesh.....

 

I can't discuss anything credible of any measure with someone who believes in such idiocy... this is utterly ludicrous.

 

The idea of an open-chain system/universe is not a "la-la land" idea. It's been debated and considered for ages.

 

You can say it's unreasonable all you want. That is your opinion.

[TheFinalWord]

 

I especially the part about the police officer's attitude of leniency in this situation (no offense to officers, it just doesn't seem to be the norm).

 

Popping up on YouTube was a video from

(KORN guitarist), who has quite the story as well. He came to my church about a year ago (with Ryan Ries) and was involved with the

movement (very impactful).

 

Me too! Man that officers action was a great example of God's grace right there. God could have locked us up and thrown away the key...but said no, I have better things for you Rise up in victory!

 

I saw that from Brian Welch...I was heavily influenced by Korn in my youth. Very impactful when that originally happened...

 

All the ways God can reach us through grace are outlined in Pslam 107. For me...

 

10 Some sat in darkness, in utter darkness,

prisoners suffering in iron chains,

11 because they rebelled against God’s commands

and despised the plans of the Most High.

12 So he subjected them to bitter labor;

they stumbled, and there was no one to help.

13 Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble,

and he saved them from their distress.

14 He brought them out of darkness, the utter darkness, and broke away their chains.

15 Let them give thanks to the Lord for his unfailing love

and his wonderful deeds for mankind,

16 for he breaks down gates of bronze and cuts through bars of iron.

 

 

[pie2]

He brought them out of darkness, the utter darkness,and broke away their chains.

 

 

And how much sweeter is victory after going through the darkness!

 

Consider it pure joy, brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds! (James 1:2)

[TaraMaiden]

The idea of an open-chain system/universe is not a "la-la land" idea. It's been debated and considered for ages.

 

You can say it's unreasonable all you want. That is your opinion.

 

Exactly. It's a debatable idea. And any sensible, rational, level-headed, logical and right-minded debate will very quickly make a total, complete and utter nonsense of this vague supposition and consign it to the same annals of credibility as those of Santa Claus the Easter Bunny and the Tooth fairy. Pure speculative 'making it up as I go along' fantasy.

 

quickjoe is right: you get so far, then when you're cornered you clutch an incredible piece of nonsense from the air in a desperate attempt to add credence to already dubious evidence.

 

If you cannot have a serious debate without bringing such ridiculous, ludicrous - and I quote - 'debatable ideas' (thereby making them a complete and utter uncertainty, and therefore invalid support to your already shaky argument) then I suggest you refrain from trying to hold sensible discussions because your credibility flies out of the window.

To sit with these angels, no doubt.

[M30USA]

Exactly. It's a debatable idea. And any sensible, rational, level-headed, logical and right-minded debate will very quickly make a total, complete and utter nonsense of this vague supposition and consign it to the same annals of credibility as those of Santa Claus the Easter Bunny and the Tooth fairy. Pure speculative 'making it up as I go along' fantasy.

 

quickjoe is right: you get so far, then when you're cornered you clutch an incredible piece of nonsense from the air in a desperate attempt to add credence to already dubious evidence.

 

If you cannot have a serious debate without bringing such ridiculous, ludicrous - and I quote - 'debatable ideas' (thereby making them a complete and utter uncertainty, and therefore invalid support to your already shaky argument) then I suggest you refrain from trying to hold sensible discussions because your credibility flies out of the window.

To sit with these angels, no doubt.

 

What is your education level? You have absolutely no idea what I know or don't know. You can say whatever you want about how "ridiculous" my views are. That is nothing more than your opinion. You can say over and over that the sky is green, and some people may believe you (including yourself), but just saying things doesn't make them true--except for maybe in divorce/family court.

[Robert Z]

I am a believer, if you haven't guessed already, in the concept of radical depravity of the human heart. Most people tend to view sin as just isolated actions. They might view murder, theft, or adultery as ACTS of sin, but rarely go to the point of considering that the CORE BEING of all humans is radically depraved.

 

Really? Doesn't the story of Adam and Eve convey the idea of fundamental human weakness [or depravity if you prefer]? Doesn't Cain show us that even a brother will murder a brother out of jealousy? Isn't that depraved? When Peter denied Christ three times even after being told that he would, didn't he show that even a man who walked with Christ can be weak?

 

It's much like a mental patient who cannot see his own mental disorder because his denial and unawareness is very part of the disorder.

 

So then since you claim to see what most others don't, you are above this mental disorder? We are all the patients and you are the doctor? That is the implication of your statement.

 

It's also because our understanding of how God designed us to be is lacking. For example, we think that normal life is where we work, save money, provide for our family, compete in the business world, get promoted, enjoy our lives, etc, etc. And while it's hard to convince anyone that this is anythingo other than normal and good, if you could truly see the standard that God has set before us in the man of Jesus, you would realize almost all of our lives are nothing more than self-centered fodder.

 

IF we could see like you do?

 

Even if we are doing things for our family/friends, it's still indirectly self-centered. God designed us to live for him, to give all to him, to love our neighbor as ourself, to follow him even unto death, to not desire anything in this world more than him at any time, and to not be at rest unless our soul is at complete fellowship with him.

 

So then his design is severely flawed? Doesn't sound much like a God to me!

 

When you talk about sin and how God designed us to be in THAT light, suddenly it's not so far-fetched to talk about the human heart as being radically depraved.

 

So the heart God designed is radically depraved?

 

The downside to all of this is that, being radically depraved, we don't even possess the ability to change our hearts, to turn to God in a spirit of truth, or to even please God.

 

The upside is that God does it all for us. He has paid the price of our sin. The Bible says HE is the one who gives us a pure heart, and HE is the one (who via the Holy Spirit) allows us to please God. Otherwise, on our own, we would never be able to.

 

Good thing since it's all his fault in the first place!

 

You seem to view yourself as having unique insights into the mind of God. Do you? Why do you believe that you have this unique insight that the rest of us lack?

[pureinheart]

I love Lecrae. My oldest showed me one of his videos and I have loved him ever since.

 

He is just adorable! Man, this world could use a few million plus just like him. It's his face and his eyes, they just radiate everything that is possitive in this world:love::love:....

[TaraMaiden]

The idea of an open-chain system/universe is not a "la-la land" idea. It's been debated and considered for ages.

 

You can say it's unreasonable all you want. That is your opinion.

 

Exactly. It's a debatable idea. And any sensible, rational, level-headed, logical and right-minded debate will very quickly make a total, complete and utter nonsense of this vague supposition and consign it to the same annals of credibility as those of Santa Claus the Easter Bunny and the Tooth fairy. Pure speculative 'making it up as I go along' fantasy.

 

quickjoe is right: you get so far, then when you're cornered you clutch an incredible piece of nonsense from the air in a desperate attempt to add credence to already dubious evidence.

 

If you cannot have a serious debate without bringing such ridiculous, ludicrous - and I quote - 'debatable ideas' (thereby making them a complete and utter uncertainty, and therefore invalid support to your already shaky argument) then I suggest you refrain from trying to hold sensible discussions because your credibility flies out of the window.

To sit with these angels, no doubt.

 

What is your education level? You have absolutely no idea what I know or don't know. You can say whatever you want about how "ridiculous" my views are. That is nothing more than your opinion. You can say over and over that the sky is green, and some people may believe you (including yourself), but just saying things doesn't make them true--except for maybe in divorce/family court.

 

If you read the referenced posts above, nowhere do you say you actually believe this fantasy. I was responding to your comments of these notions being mere debatable ideas.

It's not a question of my challenging what you know (although if what you 'know' is based on the Bible, you're already standing on extremely shaky ground)...

And if you actually do believe these notional ideas, it's a shame that your obvious academic superiority is incapable of discerning fact from fiction, and that all that money was wasted on your education, because frankly, you're no more qualified to judge my education level than the Tooth fairy is.

[TaraMaiden]

To get back to the original topic question: Assuming that,as it's posted on a general discussion forum, and not a specifically Christian one, thereby inviting responses from all denominations, and non-believers as well as those who adhere to a faith or adhere to a calling -

 

The word 'Sin' probably has its roots in the latin prefix Sons- or Sont- which means Guilty (of)....

And as a person, in Law must be presumed innocent before being PROVEN guilty, to assume sin, or guilt is already ingrained in a person is just pulling the fear card and using it to batter susceptible gullible victims round the head....

 

Fear, is the key.

Keep people Fearful.

Instil in them the Fear of God.

Fear is a wonderfully controlling tool, It can help you achieve much: if you subjugate your followers and the general populace with Fear, you can manipulate them into believing anything you want.

 

The old English word 'Faeren' means both 'to frighten' and 'to revere'.

 

'God' elicits reverence - through Fear.

'God' demands complete capitulation through the domination of the human spirit, by threatening and menacing obliteration and eternal damnation.

 

It puts him on a par with some of the most despicable and despotic criminals to have walked this earth. If that doesn't make God a sinner by his own definition, I don't know what does. He's the biggest one of the lot.

 

 

(Academic enough for you? See, I did Latin at school, for a couple of years..... Forgotten most of it, but as I was Convent-educated, some of the more salient terms have stayed with me. Those witches sure could hand out god's judgement-by-proxy!! )

[pureinheart]

A landmark study just found that, contrary to previously held belief, school-aged bullies actually have higher than average self esteem and self perception--not low self esteem. Consider that in light of the discussion here.

 

And whatever "negative consequences" the other posters think might arise from a self-depracating worldview, it really doesn't matter since this is the ONLY view which, according to the Bible, leads to repentance and then salvation.

 

You know, for me it was a desire for truth. Having walked with the Lord all of my life, still didn't have that deep personal relationship with Him. I didn't understand that certain behaviors/actions were wrong.

 

After exploring briefly different faiths, none of them not filling this gaping void, this desire for truth grew much stronger, what was right and wrong was my main question.

 

It was after salvation, with God showing me truth did the repentance come...and it's still coming:)

 

Man M30, a couple of days ago I read a scripture you posted in this thread and was to tired to respond...and I can't find it. That scripture just resonated directly into my spirit...wow, just wanted to let you know that

Edited October 7, 2012 by pureinheart

[TaraMaiden]

we still haven't been given a reliable link or reference to this "Landmark study"..... in spite of two requests in the thread to see one.

[mercy]

I always worry about people focusing too much on the sin. In the Bible, Jesus dealt with sin not with negativity, but with grace, love and forgiveness. He did not condemn those who had sinned, nor willed others to condemn them.

 

Do I think we are radically depraved? No, I think there's good and bad in all of us. I think we're all sinners, and it's by His grace that we are saved, but I pay more attention to the grace and love than the sin. It would give me too much of a headache if I beat myself around the head for every sin

 

In Matthew, (don't know which verse, lazy gal here...) Jesus said that a good seed would produce good fruit/work, and a bad seed would produce bad fruit. That whole analogy to me means that if you have a good heart, it will show through in your actions, your words etc. If you have a bad heart, the same thing. This more than implies that there is the capacity for goodness and doesn't suggest that all of us have radically depraved hearts. It suggests that those of us who do radically depraved things have bad hearts.

 

M30USA, excuse me for saying this, but I'm concerned that you're focusing very hard on negative things that are not seeking to help you. I'm also sure in certain parts of scripture you posted, you tore them out of context, and thus, made them say exactly what you, for some reason, wanted them to say.

 

Deeply hurt people do this.

 

Shame does this too. Shame at allowing someone to touch our heart, then rip it out. We (general) need vengeance, it temporarily soothes the soul.

 

Giving those hurts to God, laying them at the foot of the cross, feeling the comfort of the Holy Spirit, heals the heart and frees us to love again.

 

He healeth the broken in heart, and bindeth up their wounds. (Psalms147:3)

 

Love is the cure,

for your pain will keep giving birth to more pain

until your eyes constantly exhale love

as effortlessly as your body yields its scent. - Rumi

[TaraMaiden]

I alluded to this tendency earlier in the thread, and sadly, knowing M30USA's own history, I fear that his experience may be more of an influence on his line of thinking than perhaps even he would care to admit.

It's sad, because such issues would also cloud his on personal vision of God, and tarnish his relationship with his creator.

I'm certain that God wouldn't want his 'children' behaving in this way.

 

But M30USA is also extremely stubborn, and once he's convinced his opinion is the right one - which he puts forward as 'irrefutable and profound knowledge, backed up by scripture', there's little anyone can do to convince him that perhaps he has this skewed....

 

Just my opinion.

[Eve]

I alluded to this tendency earlier in the thread, and sadly, knowing M30USA's own history, I fear that his experience may be more of an influence on his line of thinking than perhaps even he would care to admit.

It's sad, because such issues would also cloud his on personal vision of God, and tarnish his relationship with his creator.

I'm certain that God wouldn't want his 'children' behaving in this way.

 

But M30USA is also extremely stubborn, and once he's convinced his opinion is the right one - which he puts forward as 'irrefutable and profound knowledge, backed up by scripture', there's little anyone can do to convince him that perhaps he has this skewed....

 

Just my opinion.

 

I would agree with this. I would advise the OP to not fear his human-ness.

 

This is a time when really he needs to draw close to others.

 

God is a good person. Took me a while to get this as my life has been quite awful but the Gospel is the Gospel of reconcilliation, not hatred. The graphic nature of Scripture reflects our nature; The Law was given for us to identify sin, but still every single one of us still continues to sin. As Creflo says, once we repent, we leave the prison of sin for another prison, which is the prison of righteousness. There we learn to love such that we are empowered to choose righteousness .. then we are free. None of us gets to say that we are better, it's all about God and Grace.

 

Really hope the OP can spend time thinking about this because if we have not love.. we do not have God.

 

Therefore spend time musing, yes, but let the musing be edifying so that the connections made are worthwhile.

 

.. Of course, after a while all the ranting does get boring anyway. May as well watch LOST or go to the cinema or something.

 

Spend time working out what went wrong with your ex, OP. Use this forum to work out your heartache.

 

Take care,

Eve x

Edited October 7, 2012 by Eve

[TheFinalWord]

He is just adorable! Man, this world could use a few million plus just like him. It's his face and his eyes, they just radiate everything that is possitive in this world:love::love:....

 

Heck, I don't even like rap and I like him

 

[HisGraceisSufficient]

To get back to the original topic question: Assuming that,as it's posted on a general discussion forum, and not a specifically Christian one, thereby inviting responses from all denominations, and non-believers as well as those who adhere to a faith or adhere to a calling -

 

The word 'Sin' probably has its roots in the latin prefix Sons- or Sont- which means Guilty (of)....

And as a person, in Law must be presumed innocent before being PROVEN guilty, to assume sin, or guilt is already ingrained in a person is just pulling the fear card and using it to batter susceptible gullible victims round the head....

 

Fear, is the key.

Keep people Fearful.

Instil in them the Fear of God.

Fear is a wonderfully controlling tool, It can help you achieve much: if you subjugate your followers and the general populace with Fear, you can manipulate them into believing anything you want.

 

)

 

7 For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline.

 

1 Timothy 1:7

 

When I was saved, I didn't feel fear but love, acceptance, peace and joy. A genuine Christian walk does not include fear and condemnation but love, grace, forgiveness.

 

"There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." I John 4:18

 

God is love and if a Christian is filled with the Holy Spirit, fear cannot dominate .

Edited October 7, 2012 by HisGraceisSufficient

[TaraMaiden]

Like i said - I agree with those sentiments. It's M30USA you have to convince. He's the leader of his own 'one-man sackcloth & Ashes' brigade.....

[pureinheart]

I always worry about people focusing too much on the sin. In the Bible, Jesus dealt with sin not with negativity, but with grace, love and forgiveness. He did not condemn those who had sinned, nor willed others to condemn them.

 

Do I think we are radically depraved? No, I think there's good and bad in all of us. I think we're all sinners, and it's by His grace that we are saved, but I pay more attention to the grace and love than the sin. It would give me too much of a headache if I beat myself around the head for every sin

 

In Matthew, (don't know which verse, lazy gal here...) Jesus said that a good seed would produce good fruit/work, and a bad seed would produce bad fruit. That whole analogy to me means that if you have a good heart, it will show through in your actions, your words etc. If you have a bad heart, the same thing. This more than implies that there is the capacity for goodness and doesn't suggest that all of us have radically depraved hearts. It suggests that those of us who do radically depraved things have bad hearts.

 

M30USA, excuse me for saying this, but I'm concerned that you're focusing very hard on negative things that are not seeking to help you. I'm also sure in certain parts of scripture you posted, you tore them out of context, and thus, made them say exactly what you, for some reason, wanted them to say.

 

Back in 1993 a really good friend suggested that my new husband and I go to one of the groups that a particular church offered. So husband and I began a marriage restoration group. It was a wonderful group with dedicated and wonderful people. We were assigned a "giving couple" that worked with us 24/7.

 

The main focus was sin and teach us extremely immature people basically how to act right. The first thing that was addressed (with me) was my smoking. God spoke to me and said, "smoking is the least of My concern with you, it's your heart that is My concern". Later I understood that my outward (smoking) sin was a symptom to greater issues from within.

 

The "sin" issue perplexed me because I couldn't stop sinning. So much emphasis was put on sin, to the point of condemnation, so thus sinned even more.

 

After maturing more in the Lord, He showed me that during childhood many things happened to me and I reasoned these adult offenses placed on me as a child would. I formed many behaviors and could never be good enouph in the eyes of others. Most people are critical by nature.

 

It was God who showed me to chill on myself, letting me know that He understands. Not that I should remain in that state, although we are all a work in progress.

 

Personally I think the key is humility, the anecdote to the sin issue. It removes that finger pointing at another, turning it to the man in the mirror.

 

This doesn't mean sin should not be addressed, it's just the manor in which it is addressed IMO.