Most volitally attacked Faith?

[Feelin Frisky]

Admirable. However, I am of the belief that anti-religious and atheistic peoples need to become more abrasive, and continue demolishing the faith of Abrahamic religions with logic and reason, as we have had to endure for centuries the taste of their lash and fire, and hear of their woes and inequities. It grows tiresome to constantly assume the mantle of silence, and therefore, I react with a desire to destroy their arguments, rather then seek peace with their human enslaving notions of enlightenment.

 

I went through that phase--especially with family members. It seems to just make them more resolute in their beliefs where they'll go to war over differences in what Jesus is supposed to have said in spite of the fact that the modern English we speak today wouldn't even exist for almost two thousand more years. They fail to even think that it cost a lot of money to have someone translate ancient scriptures into Greek then Latin, then old English, to middle English to modern English where there couldn't be any agendas involved to see even a word to be changed from its original meaning. This alone makes me dismiss absolutely everything that is thought to have been said and keep the focus on apparent actions that seem to connect dots of meaning that makes for a "story" worth considering. Every time I hear "Jesus said..." I am taken aback by how ignorant that is. Whatever Jesus said, it was at least 5 languages ago--and nothing literal can last through that even at first pass much less 2K years.

[pie2]

I went through that phase--especially with family members.

 

Discussing different ideas, and agreeing to disagree can be so challenging, especially with those closest to us! I find it useful to try and use the Socratic Method to better understand other's opinions. Asking questions of others to get to the bottom of their thought process can be helpful. I think the Socratic method is used in the legal system in psychoanalytic therapy today.

 

What are your thoughts about this?

[ComingInHot]

elplague: "as we have had to endure for centuries..."

 

As I read this as well as comments from a parralell thread, I made the connection ( however misguided & off topic possibly), do you feel this way across the board? Meaning, for centuries the people of color had to endure slavery & torture at the hand of your people of the white/non color race. Or as the Jews were, for centuries and in the not to distant past at the hand of their "enemies" etc.

 

I have met people & know people of all walks of life, religion & color. Some feel that in today's society they too feel the need to be more "abrasive" due to their peoples history as they feel it affects their present sitch and position. While others maintain that a group inside the whole chose what they did but don't place that blame on the descendants that have no ties to the historic actions of their people.

 

There have been times in our history (I'm agreeing w/you here) where a group of people w/in the whole went off on their own agenda to gain power etc & left the written truths & principles behind. However, for today and speaking of myself, I try to abide by what the written Truth states, making my agenda one of peace and non-judgmental love.

 

Why the need to be abrasive & squash that out when what I will leave behind is better for the people I've touched?

[mercy]

I identify as a person with no religion. No belief in higher powers. No acceptance of claims without proof.

 

My people, the godless, are the single most hated and abused people throughout human existence. Not only people of no faith, but even people of differing faith, were considered godless. Long now has the iron shod heel of religious oppression exherted its forces on me and those it would seek to portray like me.

 

I don't place the blame on you, or anyone of the christian faith particularly. I place the blame on the intolerance and self-defeating nature of the faith itself. Be that as it may, I cannot argue and yell at God, since he doesn't exist, but I can argue and debate with his followers, since they do. It behooves me to see so many people being absorbed into this fear mongering, genital mutilating, intolerance preaching dogma, and not questioning it.

 

I believe that to induce change, you have to smash things with a hammer, instead of reshaping them with a chisel. The chisel seems all nice, until you realise the powers that be will not let you chisel here, or chisel in that manner. It's much easier when they aren't looking to simply grab a hammer and smash it. It gets their attention. And it forces them to see why you did/said what you did.

 

Maybe one could unload oneself of such a heavy burden and put that energy to better use.

 

Sometimes if one isn't careful they become that which they fight so hard to stop. Such as intolerance for others who are different. One would think using aggressive tactics would turn a reader off rather than turn them on to an opposing thought.

 

It always baffles me why one cares what another believes. Why do some feel the need to change other human beings beliefs. Rhetorical question, no need to reply.

 

Clearly I'm not someone who debates. Nothing really to debate. You don't believe, I do, okay, done.

[mercy]

I care not if someone else chooses to believe, as long as the injection of that faith does not effect my daily life.

 

Thanks to evangalism and christian methodology, American politics, legal reform and state authority is now infected with religious dogma. I rail and rage against this injection because my rights are being infringed upon by your belief system.

 

Take them OUT of my legal system, my social interactions, and keep them strictly for the realm of personal advancement or growth. They have no right being involved in things that impact my life, as I choose NOT to accept them, specifically due to the dubiousness of their creation.

 

Well, I'm just a little busy playing on my computer right now but I'll try to get right on that after I get through playing.

 

Oh, never mind. it's a holiday, government has the day off. Darn and I was really gonna get out there and change things just for you.

[taiko]

 

I don't place the blame on you, or anyone of the christian faith particularly. I place the blame on the intolerance and self-defeating nature of the faith itself. Be that as it may, I cannot argue and yell at God, since he doesn't exist, but I can argue and debate with his followers, since they do. It behooves me to see so many people being absorbed into this fear mongering, genital mutilating, intolerance preaching dogma, and not questioning it.

 

The Christian faith in particular says there is no need for circumcisions if that is what you mean by genital mutilation. It is addressed specifically. If anything Christian missionaries tried to stop the practice as it was and is a sign of Judism and Islam. It was the secular world through its doctors who gave and a couple of weeks ago the AMA still did reasons that boys should be circumsized.

 

If you mean female mutilatiion again that is not Christian and tends to occur in lands where pagans and Muslims make up the religious majorities.

 

The last group I can think of are the body art folks who pierce, tattoo, etc their genitals. While some may put a cross or a Christian symbol on a genital I am willing to bet, with no proof I admit, that most who do will not believe that Jesus Christ is their savior.

Edited October 8, 2012 by taiko
one more reason

[taiko]

Islam, Christianity and Judaism are all of Abrahamic religion. Why is circuimcision offered in hospitals, even those with no religious affiliation? There are media campaigns to show uncut men as unclean, etc. I'd hazard to say the majority of christians are cut, perhaps not females. But the root is abrahamic religions - which, as you well know, is the root of christianity.

 

Ah, that injection of faith thing, again.

 

And Christianity specifically says it is not required. It is offered in hospitals because American medical practitioners have said it is a good thing for over 80 years. As political considerations have changed they have only gone as far as to be neutral on the issue as Christianity, the topic of the thread is neutral.

 

The majority of Americans are cut, for medical reason as Jews and Muslims together make up less then 5% of the population. The majority of pacific Islanders are cut for societal manhood ritual reasons as their is evidence that Spanish Priest tried to suppress the practice as Islamic but the culture held on to that so tightly that 9 year old boys will self circumcise rather then being called a sepoy even though only 5% are Muslim.

 

In China and Japan with no great control of Christianity it is also performed more then any other medical procedure because doctors suggest it was a good thing.

[KathyM]

Therein is the problem though.

 

The religious right in America IS trying to force everyone to attend religious services. They *do* believe it should be shoved down everyone's throat. They are regularly trying to introduce legislation to:

 

a) Dissolve the separation of church in state. In various ways, the most alarming of which is wanting to establish a state-sponsored religion.

b) Remove restrictions on religion in public schools. (They're not trying to get *all* religions taught in public school, just their own brand.)

c) Outlaw the teaching of any science which contradicts their dogma or scripture.

 

So essentially, they want to turn government and education into religion, and also make it illegal to teach something that contradicts their scripture.

 

Am I the only one who sees something *very* wrong with this?

You're attributing concepts that only the extreme right wing radicals are promoting, and you are portraying that all religious right wing people are promoting that. That is really not the case. Not to the extreme that you describe. I think it's understandable that religious folks would not want their children to be forbidden to engage in the practicing of their faith while in school, such as them being prevented from praying, prevented from having meetings with other like-minded religious folks while on school grounds, prevented from expressing their religious faith. They should have the freedom to do that without oppressing the freedom of others to practice their faith the way they wish. And as far as teaching scientific theories to impressionable children which contradict the family's religious beliefs, I believe in teaching about the theories that are out there, including the theory of evolution and the theory of creationism, as a general education in public schools without promoting one theory as being absolute truth. I can see why parents who believe in creationism would not want their children to be taught in school that theories that are against creationism are fact. Neither extreme being taught or promoted in public school is the right thing to do, IMO. Unless it is a religious-oriented school. I think most right wing religious people don't expect there to be either extreme. Only the right wing extremists are promoting that kind of agenda that you describe.

[123321]

Well composition 4 is pretty volatile so I'd say Muslims of various stripes have a strong horse in the running.

[Feelin Frisky]

Discussing different ideas, and agreeing to disagree can be so challenging, especially with those closest to us! I find it useful to try and use the Socratic Method to better understand other's opinions. Asking questions of others to get to the bottom of their thought process can be helpful. I think the Socratic method is used in the legal system in psychoanalytic therapy today.

 

What are your thoughts about this?

 

I think it depends on who everyone is. I'm a man over 50 with no children. I only see that kind of psychology working on a child or teen. But since I don't have my own children it is not my place to engage any of my direct families kids. The many who are alive who are older than me are either prisoners of fear who will not even entertain discussion which might lead to challenging their faith, or they are just "lapsed" Catholics who go through the motions at ceremonies and so forth but they will become very defensive if I try to challenge anything. So, all in all I don't generally engage with anyone on religion. The Internet however opens a new avenue to "indulge" one's intellect on the issue. I started my Internet life in 2005 by going through various atheist forums and "free thought" but found after a while that it's just not a worthwhile enough subject to cover the same ground over and over. As soon as you feel like you've maybe influenced someone in a way that feels like a bit of an accomplishment, a newbie will set you right back to square one--we're all inside god's fishbowl or a little plastic snow globe that someone keeps shaking every once in a while. It gets tiring and a tad unhealthful to take it too seriously. I'm very relaxed with my view of the cosmos and don't need an after-life for it to be a great thing all by itself.

[BetheButterfly]

And Christianity specifically says it is not required.

 

Very true

 

Acts 15 (I boldened some.)

Acts 15 ESV - The Jerusalem Council - But some men - Bible Gateway

 

" But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question."

...

 

"5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.” 6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. 10Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”

 

Galatians 5 (I boldened all of this statement of Paul's.)

Galatians 5 ESV - Christ Has Set Us Free - For freedom - Bible Gateway

 

"6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love."

 

It is offered in hospitals because American medical practitioners have said it is a good thing for over 80 years. As political considerations have changed they have only gone as far as to be neutral on the issue as Christianity, the topic of the thread is neutral.

 

Yep

The majority of Americans are cut, for medical reason as Jews and Muslims together make up less then 5% of the population. The majority of pacific Islanders are cut for societal manhood ritual reasons as their is evidence that Spanish Priest tried to suppress the practice as Islamic but the culture held on to that so tightly that 9 year old boys will self circumcise rather then being called a sepoy even though only 5% are Muslim.

 

In China and Japan with no great control of Christianity it is also performed more then any other medical procedure because doctors suggest it was a good thing.

 

I didn't know that about Pacific Islanders, China, and Japan. That would be interesting to research.

 

My Dad was circumcised when he was 8 days old. His parents are Christian. My husband was also circumcised at 8 days old. His parents are also Christian. Even though it's not a mandate in Christianity, it does seem that it was commonly practiced by Christians in the USA (where my Dad was born) and some Christians in Ecuador (where my husband was born). I think the reasons are for medical as well as traditional, not so much religious because it is true that people are not required to be circumcised in order to follow Jesus.

[pie2]

I think it depends on who everyone is. I'm a man over 50 with no children. I only see that kind of psychology working on a child or teen. But since I don't have my own children it is not my place to engage any of my direct families kids. The many who are alive who are older than me are either prisoners of fear who will not even entertain discussion which might lead to challenging their faith, or they are just "lapsed" Catholics who go through the motions at ceremonies and so forth but they will become very defensive if I try to challenge anything.

 

Wow, that's a pretty depressing picture of getting older ! "Prisoners of fear"...is that avoidable? I don't want to become a prisoner of fear, or even just a prisoner of stubborness!

 

I still think that systematically asking others what they believe, and focusing on all aspects of an argument, is a helpful way to dialogue and understand. As I mentioned, it seems that that method was originally defined by Socrates.

 

...they'll go to war over differences in what Jesus is supposed to have said in spite of the fact that the modern English we speak today wouldn't even exist for almost two thousand more years. They fail to even think that it cost a lot of money to have someone translate ancient scriptures into Greek then Latin, then old English, to middle English to modern English where there couldn't be any agendas involved to see even a word to be changed from its original meaning. This alone makes me dismiss absolutely everything that is thought to have been said and keep the focus on apparent actions that seem to connect dots of meaning that makes for a "story" worth considering. Every time I hear "Jesus said..." I am taken aback by how ignorant that is. Whatever Jesus said, it was at least 5 languages ago--and nothing literal can last through that even at first pass much less 2K years.

 

My intention of bringing up Socrates was to talk about something that I see over and over, and that is that so many seem to dismiss the entire bible because it's been through so many translations.

 

I do agree that biblical translations and interpreting the language of the bible we read today has led to confusion, problems, etc.

 

But I don't think it's fair that some people seem to accept ancient philosophers' ideas (ie Socrates), when their ideas have also gone through multiple translations. Despite reading their teachings in modern English, we are still able to get the gist of the idea .

 

So, there must be something else that causes people to reject the bible in its entirety...

[pie2]

I care not if someone else chooses to believe, as long as the injection of that faith does not effect my daily life.

 

Thanks to evangalism and christian methodology, American politics, legal reform and state authority is now infected with religious dogma. I rail and rage against this injection because my rights are being infringed upon by your belief system.

 

Take them OUT of my legal system, my social interactions, and keep them strictly for the realm of personal advancement or growth. They have no right being involved in things that impact my life, as I choose NOT to accept them, specifically due to the dubiousness of their creation.

 

Have you ever been outside of the US?

 

If not, I highly recommend it! Very eye-opening regarding how great we have things here.

[pie2]

I dismiss the entire bible...not because of language.

 

Oh, good

 

I dismiss the entire bible because it dismisses every other "bible" without proof of its validity over the others.

 

Really...the entire bible? Lots of the events in the bible recount well-known historical events.

 

But I understand having difficulty believing in the more supernatural elements.

[Eve]

H'mmm.. I think Islam probably gets more opposition .. but I suppose it depends where you live.

 

I would say opposition to Christianity comes mainly from more politically minded persons, who are more used to grading humans by their group rather than as individuals.

 

Take care,

Eve x