what should children be told ?

[turnera]

You think you make them feel secure by telling that mommy/daddy has boyfriend/girlfriend?

Better than just saying 'mommy and daddy don't get along.' Cos what happens when the KID doesn't get along? Does SHE get kicked out, too?

[HappyAtLast]

I can only tell you that my boys (now grandparents themselves) never knew that their mother had several affairs when they were young. I chose to not disclose that, I did not want them thinking badly of their mother.

 

They have grown up to be happy, healthy productive members of society with long-term successful marriages, happy children, etc.

 

So, I am in the camp of let children be children and not be bothered with adult problems. I would not change how I handled the situation.

[Decorative]

You think you make them feel secure by telling that mommy/daddy has boyfriend/girlfriend? Think about it again. And affairs cause upheaval especially after discovery? Why after? Because it hurt your ego? I just read how men become nasty at homes during affairs, what are doing BS at that time. Like somebody said oh she thought maybe job, stress or whatever. So for husband it is ok to be short with his kids if it is due to job stress. But once you know it is because of the affair, oh you gonna make a big drama. Talk to the kids as much as you can that it is not their fault. Mother should be capable to do that much for her kids.

 

Hurt my ego ?

 

Um, no. There was chaos. Because my spouse's behavior was erratic. And because he was kicked out of the house, and because a lot of wild things happened in a short period of time.

 

Upheaval.

 

 

I did not create big drama.

 

I asked in another thread- what's your experience with infidelity? I am confused as to how much of the family dynamics you seem to not understand.

[HappyAtLast]

If she had several affairs what makes you think your kids never ever found out about any of them? Usually the betrayed spouse is the last to know, and if your wife was the town bicycle, then it's a pretty good bet your children DID find out about it.

 

But ironically, in the exact same way you lied to them about it, they probably also lied to you about it...both pretending not to know about what mom was up to with the Maytag repairman, the fuller brush man, dad's best friend, Mr. Smith the next door neighbor, perhaps even some of their own classmates...

 

...you think you had such a great relationship with them?

 

Bull.

 

Just another lie you prefer to tell yourself, the lie of a disappointed old man who has to rationalize a horribly failed and unhappy marriage because he's nearing the end of his life and can't do anything about it anyway.

 

My goodness, I have had a happy and successful marriage for the past forty some years. Not sure what exactly it is you are speaking of, but ok. As for my boys, they were very small and fortunately their mother, my then- wife was, well rather discrete.

 

Either way, it is true, I am old and nearing the end of my life. However, I had a great life, I raised great kids and I have been married to the love of my life for almost half of my lifetime.

 

I wish for you the same happiness.

[BetrayedH]

I wrestled with this immensely before I talked to my kids about the divorce.

 

As much as I empathize with the posters that call for honesty (or "age appropriate" honesty), the literature on this couldn't disagree more.

 

To be very brief, divorce is traumatic for children and there are numerous steps to mitigate that trauma. Avoid putting the children in the middle. Don't denigrate the other parent. That other parent is half of what made them and they internalize anything wrong about that parent as wrong with them. Tell them that their mom is bad and they will feel shame. Don't involve them in adult business. It goes on and on.

 

What the kids need to hear most is that that their universe is not going to turn upside down. They need to know that this wasn't their fault. Children recover more quickly when neither parent is at fault. They need to know that the adults have "got this" and that they can be children. They don't need to hear that one of their parents is broken and feel compelled to somehow fix them. They need to know that both parents love them and will be involved in their lives. They need reassurance that everything is going to be ok so that they can be kids. They need to know that their parents are still in charge and are taking care of the adult business. They need safety and stability.

 

I most definitely had difficulty lying to my kids to send them a message that a marriage is disposable when the parents are "unhappy." I freaking hated it. I don't believe a marriage is disposable and I sure didn't want to lie to them to teach them that lesson. But the literature (and I mean a lot of it) is very clear. I asked my children's counselor for her opinion about lying to the children about my wife's affair and if I shouldn't be honest. Her opinion was that telling them was more about me than it was about them. I couldn't disagree.

 

I don't disrespect anyone that has come clean with their children. I'm just saying that the preponderance of the children and divorce literature says entirely the opposite and so I think it's a stretch to call foul on the people that follow that advice. Anecdotaly, I would also say my kids have done remarkably well seeing two amicably divorcing parents. They see each of us every 3-4 days and neither parent has been at fault. We made it a smooth transition.

 

I would say I am in a similar place as NH. My kids are 6 and 10. They don't need to hear that their mommy had a boyfriend while we were married (or that I then also had mommy's permission to have my own girlfriend for a while) or any other such business. Their business is to be kids and to do their schoolwork. As for teaching them ethical lessons for the future, I suspect I will do just fine teaching them ethical behavior with the years I have left with them, and that includes fidelity. I don't need to denigrate their mother to do it.

 

As for when to tell them something more? The literature says never. Ugh. That part I didn't care for. Again, like NH I think I will wait for them to get older and ask. I won't have much ability to lie and I hate doing it to send the wrong message about marriage so I think at some point it will come out. Maybe at that point I will be in a different place and not feel so compelled to throw their mother under the bus. I honestly don't know.

 

My kids are doing much better than I expected. And I would have to think long and hard about telling a 6 and 10 year old about mommy having sex on the couch with her old boss. For what it's worth, the preponderance of lit on the subject says the same thing.

 

If other choose the honest route, I won't judge. I hope others won't judge me for my very difficult choice either.

[HappyAtLast]

BetrayedH - even though I chose not to divorce until my children were out of the house (this was many years ago, divorce had a different stigma back then), I chose to not tell my boys that their mother had had an affair.

 

I can honestly say that I have never regretted that decision to allow my children their happy childhood.

[HappyAtLast]

You are very amusing Duck Soup, if a bit mean-spirited.

 

Please, believe as you wish.

Edited October 4, 2012 by HappyAtLast
typographical error

[HappyAtLast]

My then wife was WELL AWARE that I would be leaving when my sons were out of the house. I stayed, I provided my children with a happy, healthy and safe home, which was my job as their parent.

 

A few months before my last child left for college, I met my affair partner, now wife. I decided to not let this chance go by, to not deny myself getting to know this wonderful woman who I now have the good fortune to call my wife. I am grateful every day that I did not.

 

To answer your question, my boys were aware that their mother and I were going to separate and divorce, that fact had nothing to do with anyone other than their mother and myself.

 

I did find out, quite recently, actually, that my boys are aware that I fell in love with my now wife just prior to physically separating from their mother. They expressed gratefulness that I provided them with the childhood that I did and were glad that I found someone with whom I was happy.

 

Does this help to make my situation any more clear? I saw no reason for my boys to know that their mother was unfaithful (I will say though, I don't believe that it was of "town bicycle proportions though").

 

I in no way condone cheating. I own my actions for choosing to fall in love with another prior to physically separating from my boy's mother. Despite what she may or may not have done, I own that.

[elcklan]

You shouldn't be falsely giving a sense of security to your children if the situation is actually an insecure one. Then they are just very ill prepared for when that tsunami actually hits. They need to run for cover, not to be told "Oh it's just a big wave, nothing to worry about.

 

A lot of people such as yourself seem to view children as something other than individual human beings with their own rights.

 

The parents screwed up their lives, therefore, the parents have to take the heat and be honest if they are going to have any prayer of helping the kids deal with the consequences.

 

LOL at all the people saying "Lie to your children about important stuff!!! It's for their own good!!!" I know cheaters might say such things--after all they are liars par excellence--but why would a betrayed spouse agree that lying to one's kids is ever a good idea?

 

 

 

 

 

People such as yourself have all kinds of excuses for wanting to conceal the truth from various innocent parties--the betrayed, the children.

 

But regardless of the reasons for doing it, if you lie or conceal the truth from someone, even your own kids, all that make you is a liar. Not a good parent.

People such as myself?? If I state different opinion then I am a cheater? You need a reality check, really man. I could recommend you a book for your issues, they are obvious

[HappyAtLast]

I don't lie to my children, if that's what you mean. At least I don't make a practice of doing so, and if I do, I don't go around trying to present it to others as a positive parenting technique.

 

We all have our own theories to parent our children. I feel very fortunate that, in my particular situation, my choices as to how to parent produced two happy, healthy, productive, happily married member of society.

 

As you pointed out, I AM in the unique situation to be able to look back upon my life, my choices AND the consequences thereof.

 

Can you do that right now? How can you be sure that your choices are correct? We do the best we can with the information that is available to us. Also, please note that this all took place many years ago. The world and children were very different back then.

[Ninja'sHusband]

Duck, Let me make it clear. I never lied to my daughter. Everything I told her was the truth. She knows she is not getting the whole story, we made that clear. She expressed no interest in finding out the rest.

 

When she is older she will probably gain that interest and I will tell her regardless of if she asks or not if she gets to a certain age (undecided). The lesson is completely irrelevant to her right now. All it would do is start a war between her parents right in front of her eyes and she would be hard put to it to make any sense of all the sudden ugliness and anger that was presented to her.

 

As to when she learns about the birds\bees, that is our decision not yours. I was the one who pushed through for her to learn now. I agree that the mother should be the one to do the teaching since she is a girl. My ex prefers to go with her to a class (not part of public school, this is a schedule class at a hospital) where they have thought all this through very carefully. And don't tell me(I know you didn't, just predicting you will) its inappropriate for my cheating wife to help her daughter understand what a period is, and what happens to her body. It's not like she's going to tell DD that its ok to go and have an affair...

 

Call me a liar and you are wrong. Call me hiding her from the lessons of life and you are wrong. She will learn when it's meaningful. Say I'm confusing her when she needs an explanation and you are wrong. She hasn't asked for it and if one was given it would only open up a megaton of hate and confusion onto her innocent world. I am NOT going there. Not yet.

 

Also, not everything is so black and white as you want it to be. My wife did want to stay married, she didn't want it enough. So you could say she didn't want to stay married as well. What she wanted was both, her class and her marriage. She prioritized me out of her life.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Ninja'sHusband

[Decorative]

I wrestled with this immensely before I talked to my kids about the divorce.

 

As much as I empathize with the posters that call for honesty (or "age appropriate" honesty), the literature on this couldn't disagree more.

 

To be very brief, divorce is traumatic for children and there are numerous steps to mitigate that trauma. Avoid putting the children in the middle. Don't denigrate the other parent. That other parent is half of what made them and they internalize anything wrong about that parent as wrong with them. Tell them that their mom is bad and they will feel shame. Don't involve them in adult business. It goes on and on.

 

What the kids need to hear most is that that their universe is not going to turn upside down. They need to know that this wasn't their fault. Children recover more quickly when neither parent is at fault. They need to know that the adults have "got this" and that they can be children. They don't need to hear that one of their parents is broken and feel compelled to somehow fix them. They need to know that both parents love them and will be involved in their lives. They need reassurance that everything is going to be ok so that they can be kids. They need to know that their parents are still in charge and are taking care of the adult business. They need safety and stability.

 

I most definitely had difficulty lying to my kids to send them a message that a marriage is disposable when the parents are "unhappy." I freaking hated it. I don't believe a marriage is disposable and I sure didn't want to lie to them to teach them that lesson. But the literature (and I mean a lot of it) is very clear. I asked my children's counselor for her opinion about lying to the children about my wife's affair and if I shouldn't be honest. Her opinion was that telling them was more about me than it was about them. I couldn't disagree.

 

I don't disrespect anyone that has come clean with their children. I'm just saying that the preponderance of the children and divorce literature says entirely the opposite and so I think it's a stretch to call foul on the people that follow that advice. Anecdotaly, I would also say my kids have done remarkably well seeing two amicably divorcing parents. They see each of us every 3-4 days and neither parent has been at fault. We made it a smooth transition.

 

I would say I am in a similar place as NH. My kids are 6 and 10. They don't need to hear that their mommy had a boyfriend while we were married (or that I then also had mommy's permission to have my own girlfriend for a while) or any other such business. Their business is to be kids and to do their schoolwork. As for teaching them ethical lessons for the future, I suspect I will do just fine teaching them ethical behavior with the years I have left with them, and that includes fidelity. I don't need to denigrate their mother to do it.

 

As for when to tell them something more? The literature says never. Ugh. That part I didn't care for. Again, like NH I think I will wait for them to get older and ask. I won't have much ability to lie and I hate doing it to send the wrong message about marriage so I think at some point it will come out. Maybe at that point I will be in a different place and not feel so compelled to throw their mother under the bus. I honestly don't know.

 

My kids are doing much better than I expected. And I would have to think long and hard about telling a 6 and 10 year old about mommy having sex on the couch with her old boss. For what it's worth, the preponderance of lit on the subject says the same thing.

 

If other choose the honest route, I won't judge. I hope others won't judge me for my very difficult choice either.

 

Harley, Gottman, Glass and Vaughn all advocate age appropriate truth telling.

 

As did my therapist, our MC ( the second one), and the psychiatrist my spouse saw.

 

I do not agree that the literature doesn't support it.

 

But I do respect that some people choose not to tell. It was not a path that was appropriate in our situation, but I respect that everyone knows their own personal dynamic the best, and that they do the best they can by their children.

 

I have no doubt that you have done what you felt was right in your situation.

[Decorative]

Duck Soup-

 

You brought up one of my favorite points- shame and guilt. They are important feelings, not to be dismissed, and when people experience them- they are telling you something important. That your behavior warrants them.

 

Thank you for saying that. I meant to say it earlier, and it slipped my mind. Guilt and shame are sometimes utterly appropriate emotions- and children and parents need to process them .

[Decorative]

I absolutely agree that there is no consensus in literature that would instruct not telling the children. I have read until my eyes have gone blurry, and had excellent guidance that have shown the opposite is more encouraged.

 

I have read a few things that say don't tell, and frankly, the reasoning never resonated with me, or my life experiences. I try and leave room for never say never, but I admit, this is hard for me.

 

And I agree- I would not want someone who isn't familiar with the literature to see a post that asserts it is not recommended. It's much better to show that there are resources to go to that explain the benefits of telling, and then the newbie could look for themselves, and come to their own conclusion. Which admittedly, I hope that they decide to tell their children the truth.

[HappyAtLast]

Chuckling as I write this. You are certainly a character Duck Soup.

[elcklan]

I am glad you are getting such a laugh out of it.

 

Your story strikes me as an incredibly tragic one.

But listen, man, it looks like it is hard for you to figure out that you sound like a bonehead. You play here some kind of a saint, but in reality you are persecuting everyone around, because they think or do differently. You are like predator, analizing everyones every sentence. Is that your problem if others don't kids everything? What are you showing here? You don't even have anything to show. A man in dysfunctional marriage. Thats all. Your story strikes me as an incredibly tragic one as well.

[amaysngrace]

Duck soup I think you're awesome.

 

Don't listen to the haters on here. They're just jealous because you understand things that they never will.

 

They also know you're right, although they won't admit it.

[Ninja'sHusband]

Harley, Gottman, Glass and Vaughn all advocate age appropriate truth telling.

 

As did my therapist, our MC ( the second one), and the psychiatrist my spouse saw.

 

I do not agree that the literature doesn't support it.

 

But I do respect that some people choose not to tell. It was not a path that was appropriate in our situation, but I respect that everyone knows their own personal dynamic the best, and that they do the best they can by their children.

 

I have no doubt that you have done what you felt was right in your situation.

I agree with the above in bold. The literature I read advised different strategies for different ages.

[BetrayedH]

Your opinion is noted. I won't do tit-for-tat with you.

 

I think you and i just have a differing opinion on how much information (or how much truth) is appropriate. It seems clear that even you wouldn't support giving graphic details to these children. It sounds to me like you would lie by omission as well but just to a different extent. My kids know that I was arrested because we were fighting. And my wife told them that it was her fault that we were fighting; that she had done a very bad thing. They were told we were fighting over adult stuff and while we had tried through a counselor to stop fighting, we still couldn't agree. Personally, I think this is sufficient. It is apparent that you would say more but would stop at some point. All that said, I can't see myself actively/directly lying should my 10 year old son ask direct questions. So far he hasn't.

 

To be perfectly honest, I'm not terribly concerned about my kids (or anyone) knowing my part in things. I have some regrets but I'm not terribly ashamed and not too embarassed to discuss it. I'm in agreement with you on the 95/5 piece, maybe 98/2. Pretty much all of my friends and family know all sides of the story; I'm a pretty open person but this is pretty heavy duty stuff for a six year old and a pre-teen. I expect my son will hear more from me at some point and I know he will should he choose to ask more direct questions.

 

As for NH and I, I have a feeling that we will live with whatever mistakes we may have made while trying to keep our families together. If I have a regret, it is probably not having had the foresight to file for separate/file immediately, to take a more direct approach. I didn't have the handbook, just an intense love for my wife and family. It's interesting to note that as I recall, you haven't divorced either. You must be right that I just don't get it. Fortunately, I am much more at peace with myself than some.

[standtall]

Duck,as much as I feel for you and the like for what your spouses did..you and the other bitter, betrayed ones allow your hate to spew into to everything you post and it clouds your judgement.

 

For the other poster that asked about cutting a kid in half, look up King Solomon's judgement 1Kings3;16-28. It is my opinion, by poisoning your young children's minds toward your wayward spouse...you children's mother or father mind you.... you are winning your vengeance/dispute against your former spouse at the expense of the emotional well being of your children...cutting your child in half emotionally. You do this under the cloak of telling the truth to undeveloped minds at any cost. Personally, IMHO, what your doing to your children is worse that what your spouse did to you.

Edited October 5, 2012 by standtall

[frozensprouts]

it's all well and good to say that children shouldn't be told, but what do you say to them if they already know because they found out some other way? Should a parent lie to their child in this situation?

[standtall]

it's all well and good to say that children shouldn't be told, but what do you say to them if they already know because they found out some other way? Should a parent lie to their child in this situation?

 

What age are we talking about? That has everything to do with it, but in general, one spouse should not bad mouth the other in front of their joint children. This includes explaining betrayal/affairs that the one may have committed.

[JamesM]

Duck soup I think you're awesome.

 

Don't listen to the haters on here. They're just jealous because you understand things that they never will.

 

They also know you're right, although they won't admit it.

 

I agree with you often, but this time I cannot. The ones who disagree are not haters, but they do feel as if they need to defend their every action, which is being analyzed and thrown back at them.

 

I have not dealt with the pain of a divorce or an affair, so I don't know the anger that Duck Soup feels. I may have a different opinion if I was in his shoes. I know that his comments may have worked for him and his children, but this will not work for everyone and is not recommended by many of the counseling/divorce sites I consulted.

 

My thoughts are given from what I read and how I think children should be treated. They need to love and respect (yes, despite the adultery) both parents. They also need to understand what changed the family when appropriate. They do not need to hear the anger from one parent to the other. They do not need to feel that one parent is now absolutely bad with no chance for improvement. They do need to hear that a parent made a very bad mistake, and they need to hear that parent take responsibility for it. No, this does not always happen, but it should.

 

I linked below some different sites that give opinions about this topic. There are many more out there. Take some time to read them before drawing conclusions. Some of these agree with what I said, and some do not. I would hope that if I were in the position of explaining an affair to my kids that I would do so with their wellbeing first in my mind.

 

Divorce Magazine: Telling the Kids about an Affair

Finally, while it might be hard to imagine, your husband’s feelings of anger will likely soften over time. It would be too bad if he sent a message to your children now that he couldn’t take back later.

 

Divorce Magazine: Telling the Kids about an Affair

 

 

In general, I don't recommend that couples explain specifics of their split to their children. Affairs especially are always very damaging to children, no matter when they find out.

'Kids, Dad Had an Affair' | momlogic.com

 

 

This one gives the most comprehensive explanation, and is one of the best. It recommends more openness than many I read.

Should you tell your children about the extramarital affair in your marriage? - beyondaffairs.com

 

As was said, these individuals are counselors who have experience with children and divorce and affairs. If I were in such a position, then I would consult a professional who I trusted, to get help in explaining everything to my children.

 

For now after reading all of this, I will do all in my power to prevent the need for such a conversation.

[frozensprouts]

What age are we talking about? That has everything to do with it, but in general, one spouse should not bad mouth the other in front of their joint children. This includes explaining betrayal/affairs that the one may have committed.

 

 

here is an example of a possible scenario...

 

Molly has noticed something is up between mom and dad, but so far, n one has told her anything.One night, she ends up overhearing dad on the phone telling someone mom has cheated. The next day, she asks dad what did he mean when he said mom cheated...

 

what should he tell her? should he lie or tell the truth? Should he cover up what happened or should he give an age appropriate , direct answer to the question? If he chooses to cover things up, what has he taught his daughter? That it's okay to lie, that his daughter can't trust him to be honest? Or has he saved her from feeling badly towards her mother?

 

It seems pretty complicated, and I have to wonder if it's a case of choosing the lesser of two evils....

[elcklan]

If advocating for being truthful to one's family members in the face of the betrayal of an affair is a "bonehead" then that's fine with me.

I never claimed to be a saint nor am I persecuting anyone. I am contradicting a number of people who themselves were the victims of their spouses' lying and cheating and who believe the appropriate coping strategy is to inflict more lying and dishonesty on their families.

 

For pete's sake, one of the posters here who is a betrayed spouse and advocates deception of his children about the real reason the marriage is ending, is still so utterly disconnected from objective reality that he continually insists, still, and against ALL available evidence, that his wife doesn't "really" want to divorce him.

 

 

Gosh, I couldn't even read everything what you wrote here. Just couple of thoughts. You do not need to advocate for being truthfull anyone here with such an obsession, we are all adults, don't worry, we are gonna handle the way we think it is the best. Second, the number of people who themselves were victims of their spouses lying?? That is victims mentality, it won't take far. We are not victims and spouses lying or cheating is not going to make us victims, we will handle it in the best way for us. I think not telling about the affair to little kids is better, and really didn't find from any of you how it could benefit them. You keep talking about lying, we don't, we disclose as much as we think is needed.

You need to understand that you have no control over us and stop wanting to think as you do. Don' be so obssesive with your posts, you will not change the universe

Edited October 5, 2012 by elcklan