New insights on marriage

[sweetjasmine]

I have only your words to go on here Jas. So if you say that you NEVER expressed your strong opinion that you are looking to settle down, will not entertain a LTR without the marriage contract, that you want to get married and will not accept anything less. You never pushed, hinted cajoled or otherwise pressured him. Ok, I will have to go with that.

 

He was very clear from the beginning that he was looking to settle down, and I agreed. There was no discussion about "I won't entertain a LTR without marriage" because it wasn't necessary. We were already on the same page. If one of us didn't see the other as a potential marriage partner, we would've parted ways and moved on.

 

I never pushed or pressured. There were no "hints." No cajoling. No arguing. Just "I'd like this - what do you think?", "Yeah, me too.", "Okay." What's disturbing is that you have a hard time believing me.

 

I will also have to go with the "terms and conditions" thing being in his favor. Generally speaking this is an egregious falsehood, but I will concede that in some cases couples have somehow worked this out.

 

Excuse me? You don't know the particulars of our relationship and are in no position to call my statement an "egregious falsehood." You have no idea who I am, what I do for a living, who he is, what he does for a living, our backgrounds, our personalities, our attitudes, our beliefs, or, well, anything that would give you any reason to think that what I wrote is untrue. You don't know what state I live in or what the laws are here. You're totally clueless, buddy.

 

Women certainly do not hide these things from men. Our entire society is just deceptive about it. Everything from "married men live longer" (as if that is some sort of good thing!) to "you must do your duty" to "do you want to be lonely for the rest of your life and live a miserable lonely existence?" to "what will become of you - you cannot have meaning in life as an independent free male human being. You must 'settle down' with a good woman (lol) and find meaning..." etc. There are many wrong and biased messages about marriage and they mostly favor women.

 

Actually, women who don't marry are seen as failures more often than men who don't marry. If you accept that men are pressured to marry, you must also accept that women are as well.

 

Where you go off the rails is in assuming that everyone who is married or is getting married or wants to get married must be as blind as you used to be.

 

Your post has an air of arrogance about it,. I only wish that every human being were as enlightened and perfect and open and honest and had the superb research skills that you possess. I really do. If that were the case, then I would have pretty little need to be here - right?

 

Pot, kettle. What else do you call lecturing everyone about The Truth that

only you can see?

 

My only purpose in engaging you in conversation is to show you that not everyone says, "Okay, Ma and Pa, you told me I need to get married so I'm going to do it even though I have no clue what I'm getting into!"

 

Young men must be warned about this. All I can do is try. If I save even one, then my job is done.

 

And while I do understand that people want to be here for positive reasons, I would be equally strident if someone were on a apple pie recipe site dishing out advice on how to lynch people of color. You can bet your ass I would call that out.

 

This is the same thing in my book. Since you are not on the receiving end, or live in a world where this never happens, I can understand how you wouldn't get it. Others do though and we are going to get louder and louder and more pervasive until these laws and horrible outdated social customs are a thing of the past.

 

Good luck with that, whatever it is. May you win gold in the Victim Olympics and savor the victory.

[Silly_Girl]

These all sound good. Marriage is not necessary to do any of these things. You can do every one of these next month without the marriage contract.

 

You are not wrong. And we're not wrong to choose to do it. We WANT it to be a contract, in essence. We feel we're entering something akin to a contract, and promises are fitting, in our view. The marriage route suits us best and we're not terribly interested in creating an alternative just for the sake of it.

[Hawaii50]

Marriage is nothing but legalized prostitution. Hiring an occasional escort and a maid is much cheaper.

 

What people don't see is marriage is advantageous to everyone except the man.

 

I can see where you come to that conclusion, but if you (the remanance of the general population) weren't so misogynist, women would be able to actually acquire assets, become bread-winners, and therefore leave.. maybe-possibly, more advantageous reasons for a man?

 

>not my views on marriage< Weddings.. I'd rather save the money and stress of planning a wedding and go on a 6 month "honeymoon." I could also care less about the paper it's written on, once I commit to a woman- the rest of my life, that's it.. unless she 1. doesn't want it 2. loses the privilege .. 1/2 are sort of the same.

 

 

See monster, how your oppression for women is also the reason for your excuse not to marry one, which creates more reasons to oppress 'em. Vicious and weird circle you've drawn for yourself.

 

Edit: and women everywhere.

Edited October 8, 2012 by Hawaii50

[MonsterMash]

I can see where you come to that conclusion, but if you (the remanance of the general population) weren't so misogynist, women would be able to actually acquire assets, become bread-winners, and therefore leave.. maybe-possibly, more advantageous reasons for a man?

 

>not my views on marriage< Weddings.. I'd rather save the money and stress of planning a wedding and go on a 6 month "honeymoon." I could also care less about the paper it's written on, once I commit to a woman- the rest of my life, that's it.. unless she 1. doesn't want it 2. loses the privilege .. 1/2 are sort of the same.

 

 

See monster, how your oppression for women is also the reason for your excuse not to marry one, which creates more reasons to oppress 'em. Vicious and weird circle you've drawn for yourself.

 

Edit: and women everywhere.

 

So you believe women can't own assets or be breadwinners?

[Mme. Chaucer]

Just "I'd like this - what do you think?", "Yeah, me too.", "Okay."

 

HEiNOUS WITCH!!! You obviously forced him. How egregious of you.

 

 

Excuse me? You don't know the particulars of our relationship and are in no position to call my statement an "egregious falsehood." You have no idea who I am, what I do for a living, who he is, what he does for a living, our backgrounds, our personalities, our attitudes, our beliefs, or, well, anything that would give you any reason to think that what I wrote is untrue. You don't know what state I live in or what the laws are here. You're totally clueless, buddy.

 

It matters not! All women are bad, and all men are writhing, naked and helpless embryonic victims of our forceful ways. In this guy's view, anyway.

 

May you win gold in the Victim Olympics and savor the victory.

 

Seconded! I wonder if there is a Guinness World Record category for that, because there really should be. I'd vote for him!

 

Ironic, isn't it, that the World's Hugest Victim has the word "strong" in his username?

[Mme. Chaucer]

These all sound good. Marriage is not necessary to do any of these things. You can do every one of these next month without the marriage contract.

 

Did you know that most of us - even you, I bet! Do plenty of things that are not "necessary" because we choose to do them?

 

What IS your beef? Yes, you have 2 failed marriages under your belt and you have concluded that marriage and you don't work. Sounds good so far. Maybe you conducted yourself in ways that ended up being disadvantageous to you (like not protecting your assets with a pre-nup, or not even "choosing" to marry but somehow just going along with it). It's understandable that you would be bitter and angry.

 

What does this have to do with anyone else? Believe it or not, a great many men and women DO go into marriage with their eyes open and their stuff figured out. Just because you didn't or couldn't really has little bearing on the world. And if people need to educate themselves about the true meaning of marriage, they would be unwise to go to a ranting hater, man or woman, to learn.

 

You come off as ridiculous, and fueled by nothing but senseless hatred and narcissism - kind of like a Grand Wizard of ignorant sexism. You smear everything woman - related. You trash feminism, and at the same time you trash traditional feminine roles.

 

I get that you just detest women. You come off as a very weak man. Such weakness combined with hatred and ignorance is a very lethal combination. I believe you wrote before that you have a daughter, and that horrifies me. I hope that all of your children have many positive male and female role models in their lives. I imagine that you are a very sick person to know personally, if one happens to be female. Scary, in fact.

[strongnrelaxed]

Did you know that most of us - even you, I bet! Do plenty of things that are not "necessary" because we choose to do them?

 

What IS your beef? Yes, you have 2 failed marriages under your belt and you have concluded that marriage and you don't work. Sounds good so far. Maybe you conducted yourself in ways that ended up being disadvantageous to you (like not protecting your assets with a pre-nup, or not even "choosing" to marry but somehow just going along with it). It's understandable that you would be bitter and angry.

 

What does this have to do with anyone else? Believe it or not, a great many men and women DO go into marriage with their eyes open and their stuff figured out. Just because you didn't or couldn't really has little bearing on the world. And if people need to educate themselves about the true meaning of marriage, they would be unwise to go to a ranting hater, man or woman, to learn.

 

You come off as ridiculous, and fueled by nothing but senseless hatred and narcissism - kind of like a Grand Wizard of ignorant sexism. You smear everything woman - related. You trash feminism, and at the same time you trash traditional feminine roles.

 

I get that you just detest women. You come off as a very weak man. Such weakness combined with hatred and ignorance is a very lethal combination. I believe you wrote before that you have a daughter, and that horrifies me. I hope that all of your children have many positive male and female role models in their lives. I imagine that you are a very sick person to know personally, if one happens to be female. Scary, in fact.

 

I know that simply stating unsupported opinions counts as truth to you and to some others here, but this does not fly with me Chaucer.

 

My strident opposition to Marriage may sound like "hate" to you, but to me it is very important. More than anything to do with you or me, it is super important to young men to see this for what it is - a slavery contract.

 

I have met people like you my whole life. In fact this conversation transcends you and me. People have murdered scientists in the past for daring to suggest that the earth was anything less than flat. I would have sided with science on that one.

 

On this one I am siding with fairness, honesty, candor and equality. A marriage contract is none of these things. And to date you have done nothing but spew a bunch of opinions. I get that this is how your type rolls, but you are irrelevant to me except that you are such an awesome example for men to see. The name calling, the disdain for answering questions simply and honestly, attacking posters for sharing perspectives, etc. All of this is schoolyard bully tactics. If we were in the same room, you would not try this crap with me I can promise you that. YOu remind me of those mouth breathers who are badasses on a keyboard, but live in Mom's basement and couldn't fight their way out of a wet napkin.

 

You have some followers which is even better. It proves to men (and youg women btw) reading this that it is not isolated. That many women are just like you and proudly so.

 

Good for you. And good for them. And thanks for the assist!

[strongnrelaxed]

I can see where you come to that conclusion, but if you (the remanance of the general population) weren't so misogynist, women would be able to actually acquire assets, become bread-winners, and therefore leave.. maybe-possibly, more advantageous reasons for a man?

 

>not my views on marriage< Weddings.. I'd rather save the money and stress of planning a wedding and go on a 6 month "honeymoon." I could also care less about the paper it's written on, once I commit to a woman- the rest of my life, that's it.. unless she 1. doesn't want it 2. loses the privilege .. 1/2 are sort of the same.

 

 

See monster, how your oppression for women is also the reason for your excuse not to marry one, which creates more reasons to oppress 'em. Vicious and weird circle you've drawn for yourself.

 

Edit: and women everywhere.

 

Oppression?

 

Wow. Now we are at the point where stating an opinion is oppression?

 

I have some African American friends who would like to talk with you about that perspective Hawaii

[strongnrelaxed]

You are not wrong. And we're not wrong to choose to do it. We WANT it to be a contract, in essence. We feel we're entering something akin to a contract, and promises are fitting, in our view. The marriage route suits us best and we're not terribly interested in creating an alternative just for the sake of it.

 

Ok. I will (edit) give you that.

 

AND...young men very much need to be educated about the perils of that contract. I have explained this too many times here, but divorce is devastating to men. Some people would argue that this means that they should just stay married. I would argue that they shouldn't get married in the first place.

 

Let's just agree to disagree. You seem like a nice person.

 

Perhaps when you have a little boy you may feel differently.

 

There are literally millions of people who think that arranged/forced marriages are ok. That feels like selling your daughter into a rape situation to me - but maybe I am just a bit to strict in my definition of "love" and relationships.

[Silly_Girl]

Ok. I will (edit) give you that.

 

AND...young men very much need to be educated about the perils of that contract. I have explained this too many times here, but divorce is devastating to men. Some people would argue that this means that they should just stay married. I would argue that they shouldn't get married in the first place.

 

Let's just agree to disagree. You seem like a nice person.

 

Perhaps when you have a little boy you may feel differently.

 

There are literally millions of people who think that arranged/forced marriages are ok. That feels like selling your daughter into a rape situation to me - but maybe I am just a bit to strict in my definition of "love" and relationships.

 

I honestly believe that marriage works for some personality types and not others. I see it working for some men. I just spent the evening with my uncle who lives in a different hemisphere to me, happily married for 35 years and loving it.

 

I have a son who's nearly 16, I'm not for or against him marrying.

 

Interestingly in splitting from my ex-partner (UK) I'm told by my solicitor he's only able to get his hands on the value of assets he has because we did NOT marry. The outcome has not been fair.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I know that simply stating unsupported opinions counts as truth to you and to some others here, but this does not fly with me Chaucer.

 

My strident opposition to Marriage may sound like "hate" to you, but to me it is very important. More than anything to do with you or me, it is super important to young men to see this for what it is - a slavery contract.

 

I have met people like you my whole life. In fact this conversation transcends you and me. People have murdered scientists in the past for daring to suggest that the earth was anything less than flat. I would have sided with science on that one.

 

On this one I am siding with fairness, honesty, candor and equality. A marriage contract is none of these things. And to date you have done nothing but spew a bunch of opinions. I get that this is how your type rolls, but you are irrelevant to me except that you are such an awesome example for men to see. The name calling, the disdain for answering questions simply and honestly, attacking posters for sharing perspectives, etc. All of this is schoolyard bully tactics. If we were in the same room, you would not try this crap with me I can promise you that. YOu remind me of those mouth breathers who are badasses on a keyboard, but live in Mom's basement and couldn't fight their way out of a wet napkin.

 

You have some followers which is even better. It proves to men (and youg women btw) reading this that it is not isolated. That many women are just like you and proudly so.

 

Good for you. And good for them. And thanks for the assist!

 

Pitiful personal attacks, but whatever.

 

The irony of this post: You begin with your sonorous and authoritative assertion that "unsupported opinions" don't fly with your bad self …

 

And then you go on, and on, and on spewing forth many unsupported opinions!

 

What a goofball!

 

:bunny:

[CarboniteCammy]

I feel that there are many family minded men who are well educated who are aware that they don't have to get married. They WANT to get married. This is America. No one really has to do anything but pay taxes and die. Everything else is up to you.

 

Marriage is really hard. No one ever said it was going to be a walk in the park every day. Some people are wired for it, and some people aren't.

 

In my opinion, it's more important for a person to do soul searching and find out if they really can live forever with the same person then it is for them to study the ins and outs of the legal system where domestic partnerships are concerned. If you make divorce an option, then you'll probably get divorced.

[sweetjasmine]

In my opinion, it's more important for a person to do soul searching and find out if they really can live forever with the same person then it is for them to study the ins and outs of the legal system where domestic partnerships are concerned.

 

Absolutely agreed. The soul-searching is of utmost importance, but I think it's also important to understand what you're doing, in terms of the law, because you are entering into a legal contract and you do have different rights as a married couple. The OP is arguing that men are kept unaware of this (by women, presumably) and that marriage is therefore 'legal slavery.'

 

If you make divorce an option, then you'll probably get divorced.

 

I strongly disagree. Just because divorce is an option doesn't mean it's the first one people will resort to. If my soon-to-be husband were to beat me repeatedly, I wouldn't shrug it off and say, "Well, divorce was never an option." It exists for a reason and it doesn't make sense to me to completely rule it out. Thinking that it's never going to happen and therefore not considering how it might possibly go doesn't divorce-proof a marriage, IMO.

[strongnrelaxed]

Pitiful personal attacks, but whatever.

 

The irony of this post: You begin with your sonorous and authoritative assertion that "unsupported opinions" don't fly with your bad self …

 

And then you go on, and on, and on spewing forth many unsupported opinions!

 

What a goofball!

 

:bunny:

 

Don't you have some cats to feed or some clothes to wash. This is a place for grownups Chaucer. Perhaps you perfect compliant hubby needs a sammich.

 

You know what to do.

[CarboniteCammy]

Sorry Jasmine, I didn't mean to extend that to people who are in abusive relationships. IMHO- that's something else entirely. I just meant that marriage is really hard for both people in a *normal* marriage. There will come a point when one or both will wonder if the grass is greener on the other side...

 

Just saying that if in a normal relationship if you have it set in your head that there's a back door of escape then you're more likely to consider it an option over having to work out difficult issues in the relationship.

 

If someone is being abused then they need to get out of the relationship period. :-)

[Got it]

I think both genders should be very informed about the ends and outs of what marriage entails going over the good, the bad and the ugly and going over the alternatives.

 

I agree that couples counseling should be done prior to marriage, and it is required in some states, but should be incorporated in more relationships even at the dating stage. I think the main issues that come up in marriage are there while dating but less addressed. I think people need to separate the emotion from the facts and look at themselves, their partner, and make the best financial and emotional decision.

 

I think prenups should be utilized more often so while you still like each other you are figuring out a fair split in case that comes about. It will also expose any red flags if perhaps someone is only involved for the money (on either side). It would also hammer out parenting which is key.

 

Both the prenup and the CC would really address whether either/both parties are really looking at more than the wedding and how well of a foundation do they have.

 

Also if one doesn't want to marry they don't have to. BUT they must be willing to walk away from a relationship if they can't come to a shared decision. It is the nature of any relationship that the contract is only as good as the parties abiding by it. This is true in business and romantic relationships.

 

I do not feel that one sex gets more from the construct of marriage than another though historically it has favored men. I do think nowadays it is much more even.

 

Knowledge is power and it behooves all to have the most information possible and to have a good understanding of one's self.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I think both genders should be very informed about the ends and outs of what marriage entails going over the good, the bad and the ugly and going over the alternatives.

 

 

How about just "all PEOPLE" should … etc.

[Got it]

I believe that is what I said. Since there are only two genders (that I am aware of) so listing both of them would also be redundant to all people.

[strongnrelaxed]

I believe that is what I said. Since there are only two genders (that I am aware of) so listing both of them would also be redundant to all people.

 

Actually there are a multitude of genders. Not sure how the others would feel about this one. But I agree with your sentiment - everyone SHOULD indeed be made aware of the dangers of marriage.