Stop using Marilyn Monroe as an example of how "standards have changed"

[KraftDinner]

Saw that in another thread and I'm so sick of it!

 

No, she was never "fat" or even chubby! When she was at her height of stardom she weighed like 115 or something. Her waist was TINY! Like, I'm thin but it has never been as tiny as hers! It was like less than 25 inches or something.

 

Yes, she had curves. Curves. Not ROLLS. I hate when people call being overweight "curvy." She had curves: bigger boobs, tiny waist, and nice hips.

 

I read this thing about how someone saw an old dress of MM's in a museum and this person was like, dang, that woman was tiny! Not chubby like people like to say.

 

It bugs me so much when peeps say that she wouldn't be considered attractive today. Umm, yes she would. Her face was perfect. And she was smaller than some big stars of today, like for example Kim Kardashian...who is also not stick-thin but is hot and NOT FAT.

[Hawaii50]

You're half-way correct... beauty, as in Marilyn's day is not coincidental, the waist:hip:bust ratios are STILL the same... just slight smaller. I'd let her pull my hair.

[darkmoon]

KK wears alot of make-up, less made-up MM was an experienced busy model, five magazine covers in the one year prior to her acting, she won awards for acting, in Something's Got To Give, MM was slender, flat stomach, there is no contest, KK is cuddly but fake-breasted not talented and wears alot of make-up, i don't see a role model

[iris219]

Agreed. I brought this up in another thread. Marilyn was indeed curvy (the true definition of "curvy") and had a fantastic figure. She wasn't big by any means; quite the opposite in fact:

 

Marilyn Monroe was Not Even Close to a Size 12-16

 

Apparently, it's rumored that Roseanne Barr started the whole myth that Marilyn Monroe was a bigger girl.

[GirlontheLam]

One other note about Marilyn Monroe that makes her a little different than let's say Kim Kardashian, is that she is all hips, no butt. That wasn't popular then either.

 

The thing that makes MM loo so different than the starlets of today:

1. Waist hip ratio

2. Amount of muscle tone/visible muscle

 

In that era, a much "softer" look was popular, and that is why women, even those that are larger, identify her as a "curvy' role model. She didn't have the "cut" look that is so popular now, so it feels more "attainable." Even though her measurements are tiny. It would also be good to note, due to the differences in fabrics available then, her bust size, in todays bras would be something like 28G or 30F (not the oft reported 36D). Clothing size? Something like a 2 but they would need to take in the waist.

 

It is also good to note, that in that era, women wore corsets and other shapewear, so clothing measurements were even a few inches smaller than actually, un-assisted measurements.

[somedude81]

Marilyn's figure was perfect.

 

5'5, 35-22-35, 36D, between 115-120 lbs

 

The waist is a bit thin and probably modified by a corset.

 

KK wears alot of make-up, less made-up MM was an experienced busy model, five magazine covers in the one year prior to her acting, she won awards for acting, in Something's Got To Give, MM was slender, flat stomach, there is no contest, KK is cuddly but fake-breasted not talented and wears alot of make-up, i don't see a role model

Kim's boobs are real. There are pictures of out there of a 16-17 year old Kim and she's already stacked.

[Leigh 87]

Um, 5 '5 and 115 - 120 lbs is THIN. Albiet, on a tiny build it would look normal or even chubby (skinny fat)

 

 

I am 130 and 5 '5 and guys in real life consider me slender.

 

BUt yes, I wish I had the small waist and large hips like MM and KK..... I have a huge butt and boobs, but not the small waist:( just normal waist for me.

 

I think men are inately attracted to women with hips and small waists... With a pretty face, a small waist and large hips, your pretty set.

[yongyong]

Real Women Have Curves? « My dark and damp little corner on the Web

 

are you talking about women putting this kind of picture on their OLD profile?

 

If they look like women in 50s, I understand. But they were nasty fat.

[CarrieT]

HERE is a more definitive analysis of Marilyn's body size and shape. Yes, at varying points in her life, she would have been a size 6 and she also would have been a size 14.

 

Specifically:

-Marilyn’s size today would be between 6 and 14. According to a modern Simplicity pattern, her bust (36) would be a size 14; her waist (22) a size 6; her hips (35) a size 10, 12 or 14. Many people have claimed that pattern sizes are wildly different between the 1950s and today, but this is not the case. Between different pattern companies there is always a wide range of different sizes based on measurements, although there does seem to be about one or two sizes difference between most patterns from the 1950s and most contemporary patterns. This does not constitute a huge disparity, however, as some have claimed (for example, that a size 16 in the 1950s would be a size 8 today.) Since sizes generally move up in two-number increments, this would be a difference of four sizes…whereas the largest difference I could find for Marilyn’s old size and her contemporary size was two sizes: sizes 6 to 10, and 14 to 18.

[somedude81]

If a 22 inch waist is a size 6, then what is this size 0 that I keep hearing about?

 

IMO dress sizes are so confusing that it's not even worth mentioning.

[CarrieT]

If a 22 inch waist is a size 6, then what is this size 0 that I keep hearing about?

 

Wiki has the answer...

 

 

In short:

 

Size O is a women's clothing size in the US catalog sizes system. Size 0 and 00 were invented due to the changing of clothing sizes over time (referred to as vanity sizing or size inflation), which has caused the adoption of lower numbers. Modern size 0 clothing, depending on the brand and style, will fit measurements of chest-stomach-hips from 30-22-32 inches and 33-25-35 inches. Size 00 can be anywhere from 0.5 to 2 inches smaller than size 0.

[somedude81]

Oh, so size 0 just means small breasts and hips.

 

Dress sizes seem to be a terrible way to tell if somebody is overweight or not.

[CarrieT]

Oh, so size 0 just means small breasts and hips.

Typically, yes. It usually means the woman is gamine - or rather androgynous is body-shape.

 

Dress sizes seem to be a terrible way to tell if somebody is overweight or not.

Exactly! I am a VERY curvy woman with natural 36-GG breasts but a small waist. For me to find dresses that fit over my natural bosom, I have to look for size 16 dresses, that rarely fit the rest of my body; shoulders over-hanging and waistlines that I swim in. I wear a size 8 trouser, but need a size 16 dress.

 

It is crazy and makes little sense that many guys assume a woman needs to be a certain clothing size!

[melodymatters]

Sizes are crazy and always have been ! I have a large rib cage and decent sized boobs, but am slim waisted and hipped so I always need two different sizes for top and bottom.

 

I bought a dress from a Vivian Leigh estate sale ( Scarlet in 'Gone with the wind) I was anorexic at the time and it JUST fit me at 5'0 tall 88 lbs, and I was in need of medical attention at that time.

 

I'm 100% Italian and naturally curvy and tiny at the same time, I look and feel MUCH better at my current 102 lbs than I ever did at 80 or 90. It's all in the frame and how you carry yourself.

 

My sister owns a vintage shop and I'm telling you, the thinnest, smallest framed size zero's nowadays can't zip up those 50-100 yr old dresses !

[CarrieT]

My sister owns a vintage shop and I'm telling you, the thinnest, smallest framed size zero's nowadays can't zip up those 50-100 yr old dresses !

What a great example! I used to collect Victorian and Edwardian clothing and was truly amazed at the gloves... 120-year old ladies gloves would barely fit on a 10-year old girl today!

 

We, as the human race, are growing larger. It is evident in simply history: Look at museums that have historical beds - they are shorter - and Renaissance and Civil War architecture where door-frames and much, much smaller.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Also, people keep saying that in the past the "average" woman wore a size 12. Have you tried on a size 12 from the 1940's? It's more like a size 4.

 

Body types come in and out of style. MM was curvy and had flesh on her bones; you would not see any of her bones sticking out. I think this is why she is used as an example - she looked "soft" whereas now people admire "hardbodies."

[CarrieT]

Here is a New York Times article on the changing of sizes - known as Vanity Sizing. The fashion industry is changing their own verbiage and the very "size 8" - or whatever - is different for each designer!

 

Great quote:

A woman with a 32-inch bust would have worn a Size 14 in Sears’s 1937 catalog. By 1967, she would have worn an 8, Ms. Zulli found.

[GirlontheLam]

Another good thing to note, is that clothes based on the older pattern were cut differently than the clothing today.

 

Then: 10-12 inches between waist and hip measurements (and around 8-10 between bust and waist

 

Now: 8-9 between bust and waist, 8-9 between waist and hips.

 

So for me personally. No matter what size I wear, most garments are actually too big in the waist, as I am "curvier" and bustier than the clothing is currently designed for (10-11 inch gap between waist and hips for me), and need to size up to fit hips, butt and bust.

[FitChick]

It's possible Marilyn was a size 12-16 because of vanity sizing. I have a vintage dress from the Fifties that is size 14 and my waist has to be 26" when I wear it. I bought a pair of Ralph Lauren jeans size 4 last week. Any tops I buy are size small. Silliness of the fashion industry.

 

Most actors (male and female) gain a few pounds when they aren't working but lose them when they have to go in front of the camera. Any photos showing Marilyn looking a little chubby were taken when she wasn't working. She was a very shrewd woman who treated her body like a commodity and knew exactly what she was doing to promote her image. She wasn't a poor little waif who those big bad men took advantage of. She was a star. Read that Vanity Fair article by the photographer who knew her.

 

I want all sizes to be in inches because perhaps then women would realize how fat they are and it would probably do more to stop obesity than anything else devised thus far.

[123321]

If a 22 inch waist is a size 6, then what is this size 0 that I keep hearing about?

 

IMO dress sizes are so confusing that it's not even worth mentioning.

 

Oh, so size 0 just means small breasts and hips.

 

Dress sizes seem to be a terrible way to tell if somebody is overweight or not.

 

No, it means clothing makers are moving the goalposts so larded out women can still claim to wear a size 12. All my GF for the last 6 years have been size 0 or 2, and they didn't look anything like a guy.

 

Current GF is a little under 5', a little under 90 pounds, and she's pretty stacked.

[planetpower]

Um, 5 '5 and 115 - 120 lbs is THIN. Albiet, on a tiny build it would look normal or even chubby (skinny fat)

 

 

I am 130 and 5 '5 and guys in real life consider me slender.

 

BUt yes, I wish I had the small waist and large hips like MM and KK..... I have a huge butt and boobs, but not the small waist:( just normal waist for me.

 

I think men are inately attracted to women with hips and small waists... With a pretty face, a small waist and large hips, your pretty set.

 

To be honest, I don't really care for my hips. I have the WORST time with jeans, because they go by waist size, but if you're wearing hip-hugger jeans, you really need to go by your largest measurement, the hip. If there was one thing I could change about myself it would be the hips.

[RiverRunning]

You can still be curvy and be clinically overweight. I will agree, though, that the term does not mean an undefined waist...and being big all over.

 

I'm overweight and I have a curvy figure - big butt, small waist, big boobs. The stereotypical hourglass, I guess.

 

But I will agree that Marilyn Monroe has always been a horrible example of 'standards have changed.' With our vanity sizing, her size 14 probably would have been more like a 6 or an 8 today.

[Zed]

What a great example! I used to collect Victorian and Edwardian clothing and was truly amazed at the gloves... 120-year old ladies gloves would barely fit on a 10-year old girl today!

 

We, as the human race, are growing larger. It is evident in simply history: Look at museums that have historical beds - they are shorter - and Renaissance and Civil War architecture where door-frames and much, much smaller.

 

True. When I was visiting a muesum that had permanent Egyptian and Nubian collection, they had some of the furniture on display. The beds were tiny. I mean the average size adult had to be between 4'5--to maybe 5'2. The same when I visited a plantation in LA. The women and men were small. The average size of a man in that time was 5'4 and women were just reaching 4'10.

[Hawaii50]

True. When I was visiting a muesum that had permanent Egyptian and Nubian collection, they had some of the furniture on display. The beds were tiny. I mean the average size adult had to be between 4'5--to maybe 5'2. The same when I visited a plantation in LA. The women and men were small. The average size of a man in that time was 5'4 and women were just reaching 4'10.

 

Interesting!

 

Could be a smorgusboard* of reasons. But I'm betting interbreading is #1. I've also read that people are becoming better looking as security and arranged marriage have taken a back seat to physical attractiveness and one-night stands etc..

 

There are/were a handful of different kinds of homo-whatevers. Giants in europe, 3ft pigmys in the Phillippines, to us, erectus!

 

Sidenote: I look as us as breads of dogs, each with there own set of characteristics and flaws.

[taiko]

It is crazy and makes little sense that many guys assume a woman needs to be a certain clothing size!

Before the comment of one guy in this thread the only comment from guys I have heard about dress size were the judges on the reality model shows. The raw numbers, especially of breast size or the ass. The cup size, yes, but not the dress size