Girls Harsher Critics Of The Female Body?

[verhrzn]

Stop assuming you know what I like because you don't. I never said girls had to have super skinny waists in addition to a big ass or big boobs. Stop trying to have an argument that no one is having. You and V are debating against points that were never made by me or any other men in here. I get you and her are mad at the female body expectations in the media, but don't take it out on us, especially guys like me who are fighting for women to ignore said images and start eating. You've got the wrong guy. Stop derailing this thread.

 

But again, you are fighting for women to just adapt a different body ideal! Instead of arguing that women should just be happy with their body, skinny, fat, tall, short, whatever, you are arguing instead for "curves," for "weight", whatever that seems to mean to you. (Because it is obviously a vague definition.)

 

Telling women to ignore one beauty standard in favor of another one is NOT helpful!

[MrCastle]

All I'm getting from this thread is that it's men's fault. I guess that's settled then .

 

These gender wars have admittedly left a bad taste in my mouth this week. I guess it's better than the first derail early on where the girl completely overlooked the thread topic and just blamed pick up artists and misogynists.

[TheBigQuestion]

Stop assuming you know what I like because you don't. I never said girls had to have super skinny waists in addition to a big ass or big boobs. Stop trying to have an argument that no one is having. You and V are debating against points that were never made by me or any other men in here. I get you and her are mad at the female body expectations in the media, but don't take it out on us, especially guys like me who are fighting for women to ignore said images and start eating. You've got the wrong guy. Stop derailing this thread.

 

Dude are you kidding me? You're a male and you at least hinted at the fact that you are attracted to a body type that you've seen in the media. Whether it's a super-skinny, heroin-chic body or Christina Hendricks/Kim Kardashian makes no difference. As long as a certain handful of women see this thread and impute their own anger and insecurities into its contents, you have no chance. No one is trying to answer the question in your OP anymore. Contrary to what verhrzn claims, she isn't trying to explore "why" women can be quite harsh on each others' looks either. She already has an answer to that question, and until you agree with it, this thread is doomed.

[verhrzn]

All I'm getting from this thread is that it's men's fault. I guess that's settled then .

 

So am I right in assuming that you completely skipped over my post explaining about how "fault" is a simplistic term and ignores the social complexities and responsibilities of power within a society?

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Oxy Moronvich, could there be more all-male groups because men are specifically trying to keep women out of groups and organizations on a level that women don't have an interest keeping men from?

 

Could it be that the most popular female musicians are solo because young pop icons are more marketed as sex symbols than men are? I also think it might have something to do with dating back to Madonna and the people that run the music industry (largely men by the way) looking for their next pop icon princess to exploit her sexuality.

 

Lets not forget groups like the Spice Girls, Pussy Cat Dolls, Cheeta Girls, Destiney's Child though...Are you really sure there are more solo female artists then groups? There certainly has been a surge of them following Brittney Spears. But I think that's because female sexuality is more exploited then male sexuality in these terms. Heck, we had an underage Brittney Spears doing music videos in school girl outfits. That's not a female fantasy. That's a male one.

 

Could it be that an industry that is largely run by male CEOs and producers push female sexuality by specifically rising young women to fame because of how much more easily we objectify women? You do realize who runs the music industry right? It ain't women.

 

Why are there fewer all-female social clubs than all-male social clubs?

 

Because women aren't interested in keeping men exclusively out of their little clubs like men are with women?

 

Why are there more businesses started by an individual woman or in a mixed gender business group than all-female businesses?

 

Because women receive less respect in business creating a glass ceiling? Women in general aren't the ones tat are the movers and shakers in the business world. So I am sure there are even less all female companies. The business world, while having made gains for women in the past decade, is still a male domianted world.

 

When I'm at the park, my buddies and I will just start playing soccer for fun. I see guys also doing frisbee or playing basketball. Women will just be sitting together, many times doing little to no talking whatsoever.

 

Being a woman with probably more experience about how women socalize, I can tell you that just because men play sports to socalize and women don't, doens't mean the way me nbond is better. usually men bond through doing active things together. Womend bond in different ways. I actually think it says something cool about two women that can sit with each other and not have to feel like they have to talk. I've been with women where I felt like I needed to talk and women where I was comfortable just being with. And just sitting next to someone can be bonding too. But I can assure you that a lot of wome ncommunicate with each other on so many differen things. Much so more then men probably do by just playing sports together.

 

I get to get together with certain girlfriends and we talk about our lives and totally support each other. My Mom as a close knit group of friends who get together for dinner or to play cards reguarly. Right now she is on a girls vacation where they went to a Spa in Sedona AZ.

 

Women bond all the time.

 

 

There are few all-female groups. As a result, women really don't bond together they way males do.

 

Women do bond differently from men but that doesn't mean women aren't bonding.

 

 

They're too busy being catty and jealous.

 

That's simply wrong and makes me think you don't have many examples of healthy women in your life.

 

Serious observation: the phenomenon of women who say, "I only have male friends because because females are catty." is widespread. I've never heard men say they only have female friends cuz males are catty.

 

That's because men are better than women Oxy..isn't that really what you want to believe anyway?

 

Only certain women say that anyway and when a woman has said that on this board, a lot of the women on this board chimed in about how that wasn't a healthy attitude to have.

[MrCastle]

But again, you are fighting for women to just adapt a different body ideal! Instead of arguing that women should just be happy with their body, skinny, fat, tall, short, whatever, you are arguing instead for "curves," for "weight", whatever that seems to mean to you. (Because it is obviously a vague definition.)

 

Telling women to ignore one beauty standard in favor of another one is NOT helpful!

 

Because I don't believe everyone should be happy with their body. People that are extremely underweight shouldn't take pride in the fact that they are sickly looking and damaging their bodies. Overweight people should not take pride in being overweight. I'm all for self confidence, but I also believe that if you can fix your body, fix it. When I was a teen, I used to pig out and live off junk food, as most teens do. When I became a young adult, I recognized my eating habits were bad, and I had about 20 lbs I could stand to lose. So I lost them. I didn't sit back and say I'm chubby, it's who I am, women better like it. I said to myself "this is not good, I can be in better shape than this, I should be in the prime of my life right now", and made a concerted effort to drop the extra pounds.

 

Healthy bodies should be celebrated. Not overweight ones, not underweight ones.

[Oxy Moronovich]

So yeah, women judge other women more harshly than men do. Mmhmmm...what's wrong with this picture?

Is it the fact that Maxim's list of hot women doesn't refute the OP's point that women judge women worse than men?

 

In any case, MrCastle, the answer is true: women are harsher judges of women than men. Like I said before, why are there fewer all-female groups than all-male groups? It's because women are catty and jealous. That's why women are more interested in joining male organizations than starting all-female groups. Heck, even verzhn herself has said she's tried harder to join all-male video game groups and not tried to start all-female video game groups.

[Anela]

OP, I think women are harsher toward women than men. Just look at female social relationships. For instance, why are there fewer all-female groups and organizations in business, arts, entertainment, sports, etc. than there are all-male groups?

 

Why are the most popular female musicians either solo or in mixed gender music groups?

 

Why are there fewer all-female social clubs than all-male social clubs?

 

Why are there more businesses started by an individual woman or in a mixed gender business group than all-female businesses?

 

When I'm at the park, my buddies and I will just start playing soccer for fun. I see guys also doing frisbee or playing basketball. Women will just be sitting together, many times doing little to no talking whatsoever.

 

There are few all-female groups. As a result, women really don't bond together they way males do. They're too busy being catty and jealous. Serious observation: the phenomenon of women who say, "I only have male friends because because females are catty." is widespread. I've never heard men say they only have female friends cuz males are catty.

 

mesmerized, who says men are harsher when criticizing women is one of these women. If men are harsher at criticizing women, then why does she have only guy friends?

 

QS too has good posts that get ignored.

 

I have friends that I wished lived closer to me (or I to them). I went a number of years barely trusting anyone of either sex, but I trust those women. I've also read that both men and woman feel better, having confided in a woman (but neither one after confiding in men - which I don't understand, because I know I've felt better after talking to my dad, or a couple of guys I can think of, even if it was only temporarily).

 

Some women are catty, not all of them.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

All I'm getting from this thread is that it's men's fault. I guess that's settled then .

 

Not at all Wholigan! I am trying to say that women and men play their part. There are things women totally do that aren't healthy where they do a deservice to other women .But men play their part too. I just don't get why men can't acknowledge this.

[TheBigQuestion]

For fun, I looked up the top ten on Maxim's list. Here are their BMIs where healthy and normal weight spans BMIs of 18.5 - 24.9:

 

1. 18.5
   
2. 19.6
   
3. 19.7
   
4. 18.2
   
5. 19
   
6. 18.6
   
7. 17.4
   
8. 18.4
   
9. 19.3
   
10. 18.1
    

 

40% of these women are underweight and none of them exceed 19.7 in BMI. So yeah, women judge other women more harshly than men do. Mmhmmm...what's wrong with this picture?

 

The fact that MAXIM of all magazines would pick a list like this doesn't really say anything about the degree of harshness with which men judge women's bodies. Unless it is your belief that admiring certain body types or proportions has the simultaneous and automatic effect of harshly judging women. If that's the case, fair enough, but this thread is about which gender is more disparaging towards women. If this was a list of the "100 Ugliest, Most of Out of Shape, Cellulite-Ridden Women on God's Green Earth," I don't think I'd disagree with you one bit.

 

This doesn't even take into account that this list is not the be all and end all of what men find attractive.

[MrCastle]

The fact that MAXIM of all magazines would pick a list like this doesn't really say anything about the degree of harshness with which men judge women's bodies. Unless it is your belief that admiring certain body types or proportions has the simultaneous and automatic effect of harshly judging women. If that's the case, fair enough, but this thread is about which gender is more disparaging towards women. If this was a list of the "100 Ugliest, Most of Out of Shape, Cellulite-Ridden Women on God's Green Earth," I don't think I'd disagree with you one bit.

 

This doesn't even take into account that this list is not the be all and end all of what men find attractive.

 

Dude you know one of the girls is gonna say something like "Just to prove my point, I found the agents of 10 of the girls on the list. I called them personally and asked them to give me their exact weight. No girl was over 120 pounds. This proves that women don't bring down females with vitriolic comments"

[TheBigQuestion]

So am I right in assuming that you completely skipped over my post explaining about how "fault" is a simplistic term and ignores the social complexities and responsibilities of power within a society?

 

At the same time, you simultaneously place the greatest burden on one group, white males, for being responsible for the majority of oppressive forces in Western history. If I remember correctly, you also implied that for that reason, this group that bears the greatest responsibility in reversing said oppression. This is an abhorrent concept in itself, and it sounds like placing blame/fault while just using different terminology. As a half-white/full-white male (really depends on what "white" means, but I'm Caucasian-looking), I bear no responsibility to fix that which my great-great-great-great-great-grandfathers may or may not have done (probably not, considering all my grandparents were essentially peasants). I owe no one nothing for things that happened before I was born. I can voluntarily help if I deem a cause to be worthy, but to compel me to do it against my will is fascist.

[ThaWholigan]

Not at all Wholigan! I am trying to say that women and men play their part. There are things women totally do that aren't healthy where they do a deservice to other women .But men play their part too. I just don't get why men can't acknowledge this.

 

It is not our lack of acknowledgement that is the problem - I'm sure many men do acknowledge their part that they play. That part is just seen as the all pervading pivotal be-all-and-end-all part. Hence, no matter how much lip service is being paid, all I can see right now is "well it's men who want this and that so it's their fault", no matter how dressed up it looks.

 

So am I right in assuming that you completely skipped over my post explaining about how "fault" is a simplistic term and ignores the social complexities and responsibilities of power within a society?

 

I read it, yes. I just think our "part" is exaggerated to an effect that pretty much has the word "fault" written on it in my opinion.

[somedude81]

Dude you know one of the girls is gonna say something like "Just to prove my point, I found the agents of 10 of the girls on the list. I called them personally and asked them to give me their exact weight. No girl was over 120 pounds. This proves that women don't bring down females with vitriolic comments"

LOL, I love that logic.

[Anela]

All I'm getting from this thread is that it's men's fault. I guess that's settled then .

 

You asked how a man could make a woman feel better where all of this is concerned? I've loved it when I've seen men obviously turned off by girls/women coming onto him when he's with his girl/wife. I suppose I would wonder why a guy would want to look at magazines like Maxim, if he really liked the look of me.

 

I don't know; I'm not feeling too well, and I keep losing my train of thought. I had something that I wanted to post here, but I wanted to quote something and I don't have the book in front of me - I didn't buy it: Daring Greatly, by Brene Brown. She wrote about a young woman who stood up and started venting, at a talk or class that she was giving, about men and the way they shamed women about their bodies. An older man stood up and said that not all men were that way, and referred to those guys as *******s. He said what I've seen from several men here in the past: that when you're there with them, they're just happy that you're there. They aren't judging every single thing about you. Brene went on to write about men of all ages, and how they've opened up about their own fears and shame in relation to their bodies and sexual performance, and how they aren't supposed to have any hang-ups of that nature as men (from what I remember).

 

I liked MrCastle's comments about liking it when a girl actually eats. I see where V, and DY are coming from, when they saw it as a girl being told that she looks bad, once again, but I thought he actually meant it when he said he wished that they hadn't felt so badly about themselves, that they lost all that weight, and felt the need to be so skinny. He wasn't saying that he'd tell them they looked awful.

[MrCastle]

 

I liked MrCastle's comments about liking it when a girl actually eats. I see where V, and DY are coming from, when they saw it as a girl being told that she looks bad, once again, but I thought he actually meant it when he said he wished that they hadn't felt so badly about themselves, that they lost all that weight, and felt the need to be so skinny. He wasn't saying that he'd tell them they looked awful.

 

Is this what love feels like?

[TheBigQuestion]

Dude you know one of the girls is gonna say something like "Just to prove my point, I found the agents of 10 of the girls on the list. I called them personally and asked them to give me their exact weight. No girl was over 120 pounds. This proves that women don't bring down females with vitriolic comments"

 

This is the sort of leap in logic that only an intellectual midget could ever make.

[SteveC80]

For fun, I looked up the top ten on Maxim's list. Here are their BMIs where healthy and normal weight spans BMIs of 18.5 - 24.9:

 

1. 18.5
   
2. 19.6
   
3. 19.7
   
4. 18.2
   
5. 19
   
6. 18.6
   
7. 17.4
   
8. 18.4
   
9. 19.3
   
10. 18.1
    

 

40% of these women are underweight and none of them exceed 19.7 in BMI. So yeah, women judge other women more harshly than men do. Mmhmmm...what's wrong with this picture?

 

Who cares what ideal is? women[and us regular guys] tell the bitter men here all the time that even though they may be short/and or bald theryes someobdy out there or them women should take the same tact

 

Why do women feel the need to be validated by most or all men? as long as one man you love validates you that should be all that counts not that your body type isnt in a magazine

[ThaWholigan]

I liked MrCastle's comments about liking it when a girl actually eats. I see where V, and DY are coming from, when they saw it as a girl being told that she looks bad, once again, but I thought he actually meant it when he said he wished that they hadn't felt so badly about themselves, that they lost all that weight, and felt the need to be so skinny. He wasn't saying that he'd tell them they looked awful.

 

I know where MrCastle is coming from - I've known naturally skinny girls who were really thin - but some really aren't naturally thin like that. V and DY always see everything like how you described, so it can be difficult to get across that no that is not what we're saying.

 

FTR, I don't read Maxim - never have.

[TheBigQuestion]

I know where MrCastle is coming from - I've known naturally skinny girls who were really thin - but some really aren't naturally thin like that. V and DY always see everything like how you described, so it can be difficult to get across that no that is not what we're saying.

 

FTR, I don't read Maxim - never have.

 

Come on now, one one READS Maxim.

[Oxy Moronovich]

Oxy Moronvich, could there be more all-male groups because men are specifically trying to keep women out of groups and organizations on a level that women don't have an interest keeping men from?

How are men trying to keep women from starting all-female groups and organizations?

 

Could it be that the most popular female musicians are solo because young pop icons are more marketed as sex symbols than men are? I also think it might have something to do with dating back to Madonna and the people that run the music industry (largely men by the way) looking for their next pop icon princess to exploit her sexuality.

You mean the Beatles, the Monkees, the Rolling Stones, Backstreet Boys, N'Sync, 98 Degrees, New Kids on the Block, Boyz 2 Men, and a plethora of other male groups were never marketed as sex symbols? How about solo acts like Justin Bieber and Ricky Martin? How about where only one male member of a band is marketed as a sex symbol like Jim Morrison of the Doors or Jakob Dylan of the Wallflowers?

 

Besides, I'm not just talking about popular acts. I'm also talking about indie bands too.

 

Lets not forget groups like the Spice Girls, Pussy Cat Dolls, Cheeta Girls, Destiney's Child though...Are you really sure there are more solo female artists then groups?

I'm positive there are more female solo artists than all-girl groups. I also noticed that none of the groups you mentioned stayed around for a full decade, while all-male groups can stay around for decades, even half a century like the Rolling Stones.

 

There certainly has been a surge of them following Brittney Spears. But I think that's because female sexuality is more exploited then male sexuality in these terms. Heck, we had an underage Brittney Spears doing music videos in school girl outfits. That's not a female fantasy. That's a male one.

Weren't the Osmonds and the Jackson 5 doing musical numbers in school uniforms too? Whose fantasy was that?

 

Could it be that an industry that is largely run by male CEOs and producers push female sexuality by specifically rising young women to fame because of how much more easily we objectify women? You do realize who runs the music industry right? It ain't women.

I noticed you said, "we objectify women". So you do agree with me that women criticize women harsher than men, huh? By the way, women do have power to shape the music industry as consumers. If they don't like something, they don't buy it. Thus, the producers and CEOs will only give women what they want.

 

 

 

Because women aren't interested in keeping men exclusively out of their little clubs like men are with women?

Perhaps. If women actually started their own all-female clubs. But women by and large neither start, nor join all-female clubs.

 

 

 

Because women receive less respect in business creating a glass ceiling? Women in general aren't the ones tat are the movers and shakers in the business world. So I am sure there are even less all female companies. The business world, while having made gains for women in the past decade, is still a male domianted world.

You wouldn't have to worry about male domination if women started all-female businesses.

 

 

 

Being a woman with probably more experience about how women socalize, I can tell you that just because men play sports to socalize and women don't, doens't mean the way me nbond is better. usually men bond through doing active things together. Womend bond in different ways. I actually think it says something cool about two women that can sit with each other and not have to feel like they have to talk. I've been with women where I felt like I needed to talk and women where I was comfortable just being with. And just sitting next to someone can be bonding too. But I can assure you that a lot of wome ncommunicate with each other on so many differen things. Much so more then men probably do by just playing sports together.

Yes, you communicate in different ways. But is it always in a positive way? Nope.

 

I get to get together with certain girlfriends and we talk about our lives and totally support each other. My Mom as a close knit group of friends who get together for dinner or to play cards reguarly. Right now she is on a girls vacation where they went to a Spa in Sedona AZ.

 

Women bond all the time.

Yeah, and women break up all the time too: when a woman finds out her "friend" was secretly talking about her behind her back, she becomes devastated.

 

 

 

 

Women do bond differently from men but that doesn't mean women aren't bonding.

 

Only certain women say that anyway and when a woman has said that on this board, a lot of the women on this board chimed in about how that wasn't a healthy attitude to have.

Yeah, and women chime in it can be pretty personal.

 

I just don't like other girls I would rather hang out with guys... No competition

 

The only competition is in your head...but based on your posts...the feeling might be mutual if they get to know you.

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/off-topic/personal-rants-confessions/345554-why-do-women-treat-each-other-like-crap-3.html

[MrCastle]

 

FTR, I don't read Maxim - never have.

 

It's interesting, I used to subscribe to both Maxim and Playboy a few years back, but have since replaced them with GQ and Esquire. The former just focus on "getting laid" and not much outside of that, the latter assume you've outgrown that and the focus is more on developing yourself as a modern day man.

[ThaWholigan]

Come on now, one one READS Maxim.

:lmao:

[TheBigQuestion]

:lmao:

 

*no one. Blech.

[somedude81]

It's interesting, I used to subscribe to both Maxim and Playboy a few years back, but have since replaced them with GQ and Esquire. The former just focus on "getting laid" and not much outside of that, the latter assume you've outgrown that and the focus is more on developing yourself as a modern day man.

Which one focuses on getting laid?

Nope, never read it. I read Nuts & FHM a couple of times.

:love: Lucy Pinder, Michele Marsh, Gemma Atkinson, Keeley Hazell :love: