Jesus and Horus

[BetheButterfly]

Due to the suggestion of another poster, I am reading the following:

Jesus' and Horus' life events, etc.

 

 

This is interesting and I agree with this quote, "Horus was considered a god in ancient Egypt. Jesus was considered: A Jewish prophet by Jewish Christians in the first century CE, As a man-god by later Christians, and As history's second greatest prophet by Muslims."

I also agree with this quote,

 

"One problem with comparing events in the life of Horus and Yeshua relates to time. Horus was a leading figure in Egyptian mythology for millennia. Folklore about him naturally proliferated during this interval. So, for example, there is more than one story about the method by which he died. Thus, if the writers of the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) did copy events from Horus' life, they would have had multiple options from which to choose. Further, one cannot compare crucifixion in 1st century CE Judah, with a simlar procedure in ancient Egypt. Roman crucifixion followed a specific procedure by which the victim was made to carry the crosspiece through the city, clothing was stripped from him, his limbs were tied -- or in rare instances, nailed -- to the cross, etc. Nothing precisely like this existed in ancient Egypt. So, one cannot strictly call Horus' execution a crucifixion, even if he was tied to a tree and died of exposure."

 

The issues I have with comparing Horus and Jesus are the following:

 

1. The Tanakh is incredibly important concerning who Jesus claimed to be. The Messiah (Anointed One) that God promised to King David would be on his throne forever is accounted in the Tanakh, as well as other prophecies that Christians believe Jesus fulfills. It doesn't matter what similarities are between Jesus and any other figure in other beliefs have but rather if Jesus fulfills the prophecies concerning him in the Tanakh. The Tanakh accounts the promise of the Anointed One to David (2 Samuel 7, 1 Chronicles 17, Psalm 2, Psalm 89) as well as prophecies concerning the Anointed One, a few being found in Psalm 22, Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9, Isaiah 53).

 

2. The similarities alleged between Horus and Jesus are interesting. However, differences should be considered as well. Those differences include the following which I believe are differences heavy enough to show that Jesus' apostles/disciples did not know or try to copy an Egyptian deity. Many of Jesus' apostles, including Peter, James, and John, were uneducated fishermen from Galilee, not Egyptian scholars/spiritual leaders:

A. Horus is depicted either as a falcon or a man with a falcon's head. Jesus is not depicted as either, but rather as a normal man who could do abnormal things, like walk on water, meet with Moses and Elijah in shining clothes, and raise people from the dead.

B. There are different traditions as to whether Horus' mother was Isis or Hathor, whereas Jesus' mother was very clearly Mary. Also, Horus' father was dismembered and put together again by Horus' mother, whereas God is Spirit and did not have sexual union with the virgin Mary, but rather simply planted Jesus in her womb.

C. One tradition states that Horus' wife was Hathor, whereas the Bible does not mention Jesus getting married.

D. Horus was considered the god of war, whereas Jesus did not kill anybody. Horus led in battles but Jesus did not lead any battles.

E. Incarnations of Horus were considered the pharoahs, whereas Jesus is not considered to be incarnated into any leader but rather that he is alive, in Heaven, and will come back when God the Father says to (Matthew 24:30-36).

F. Mary did not have a brother who wanted to kill her son, where the story of Horus says that his mother's brother (his uncle) wanted to kill him.

G. The Eye of Horus is said to have been a protective symbol, whereas the eyes of Jesus do not have this trait.

 

3. It is easy to find similarities and differences between Jesus and beliefs of other people. There has also been a study of similiarities between Jesus and the Greek god Dionysus, son of Zeus. The marked differences are vast too. However, one needs to study the prophecies in the Tanakh which Jesus claims to fulfill. They are the road map important to Judaism and Jesus' claims.

 

The earth is full of similarities. One can compare and contrast and find interesting similarities to many things. However, that does not mean that one is fake or a copy of another. Rather, it just shows that just as life has similarities, so history does as well. The differences clearly show that one is not truly the copy of the other.

[mercy]

Well, I asked Jesus and He said to keep believing what I'm believing. When it's for me, He'll let me know.

 

Hi BetheButterfly!

 

Interesting story though, thanks for posting it.

 

Guess what? Today is a beautiful day!

[BetheButterfly]

Well, I asked Jesus and He said to keep believing what I'm believing. When it's for me, He'll let me know.

 

Hi BetheButterfly!

 

Interesting story though, thanks for posting it.

 

Guess what? Today is a beautiful day!

 

Yep! I need to go outside! It is lovely!!!

 

The reason I posted it was because another poster suggested I read it.

 

To me, it's very easy to find similarities. However, differences are extremely important to take note of because just because some accounts are similar, that does not mean one is a copy of another.

 

Also, what is very important concerning Jesus is that he and his followers claim that he fulfills the prophecies concerning him in the Tanakh.

 

The following verses in the New Testament show that the followers of Jesus considered the Tanakh and the ancestry of Jesus being the descendant of King David to be very important!

 

 

Matthew 1 (I boldened some.)

Matthew 1 NIV - The Genealogy of Jesus the Messiah - Bible Gateway

 

" This is the genealogy[a] of Jesus the Messiah[b] the son of David, the son of Abraham: 2 Abraham was the father of Isaac,

Isaac the father of Jacob,

Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,

3 Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar,

Perez the father of Hezron,

Hezron the father of Ram,

4 Ram the father of Amminadab,

Amminadab the father of Nahshon,

Nahshon the father of Salmon,

5 Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,

Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,

Obed the father of Jesse,

6 and Jesse the father of King David.

 

David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah’s wife,

7 Solomon the father of Rehoboam,

Rehoboam the father of Abijah,

Abijah the father of Asa,

8 Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,

Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,

Jehoram the father of Uzziah,

9 Uzziah the father of Jotham,

Jotham the father of Ahaz,

Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,

10 Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,

Manasseh the father of Amon,

Amon the father of Josiah,

11 and Josiah the father of Jeconiah[c] and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.

 

12 After the exile to Babylon:

Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,

Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,

13 Zerubbabel the father of Abihud,

Abihud the father of Eliakim,

Eliakim the father of Azor,

14 Azor the father of Zadok,

Zadok the father of Akim,

Akim the father of Elihud,

15 Elihud the father of Eleazar,

Eleazar the father of Matthan,

Matthan the father of Jacob,

16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.

 

17 Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Messiah."

 

 

Matthew 5 (Words of Jesus - I boldened some.)

Matthew 5 NIV - Introduction to the Sermon on the Mount - Bible Gateway

 

 

"17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

 

Luke 24 (I boldened some.)

Luke 24 NIV - Jesus Has Risen - On the first day of - Bible Gateway

 

 

"25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

28 As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus continued on as if he were going farther. 29 But they urged him strongly, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them.

30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32 They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”

 

 

...

 

 

"44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures."

 

John 1

John 1:45 NIV - Philip found Nathanael and told him, - Bible Gateway

"45 Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

 

So, even though other people like to find similarities of Jesus with other figures of other beliefs (and possibly ignore their differences?), what is personally important to me is to find how Jesus fulfills the prophecies concerning him in the Tanakh!

[BetheButterfly]

My argument when it occurs as such to compare Jesus to other deities it not explicitly to state Jesus was a creation of peculiar similarity based on text to those mentioned deities, but rather that the dross of human thought created an escape of sorts to explain death and give reason to self that we matter in the long run.

 

It is explicitly contrived to consider that christianity as a faith is the only one true path - the same can be said of all religions. Comparative human thought would lead one to envince that perhaps a convergence of sorts, of common thought patterns, are portrayed throughout cultures, at varying intervals of time, through our history.

 

The need to be important, to explain all things, to escape the idea of final death - that is my wager. These excuses, infallible creations, used to explain death and needless vanity, are nothing more then that; an escape from responsibility, a way out, a way to assuage thoughts of the utter finality of termination. I do not believe any one or the other is better; therein lays the problem with current and historical christian (and religious for that matter) thought.

 

Basically, many trains of thought consider that their "train" is the best and only correct way. This is found in the Atheist camp as well.

 

Agnostics do generally tend to be more objective in not saying any train of thought is better than another.

 

Some Hindus are very inclusive, thinking all are right... all roads leading to Heaven as it were. Unitarians believe this even more I think.

 

History is a really cool subject to me, and history includes what people believed. The history of the Jewish people is particularly fascinating to me because Jesus is Jewish and I believe he fulfills the prophecies in the Tanakh.

[BetheButterfly]

Prophecies are unproven, unless one of us were alive at the time in which they are fulfilled and have proof of their validity.

 

Good point. However, based on the testimonies of the Jewish followers of Jesus (including his chosen apostles) I personally believe Jesus did fulfill the prophecies. However, it is most decidedly true that many Jewish people in that time as well as now did/do not consider Jesus to have fulfilled those prophecies, which should be respected as well.

 

 

Belief in itself requires the sacrifice of knowledge;

I disagree. Belief in itself requires knowing that you do not know everything and trusting what others say.

 

For example, I trust what you say that Saddam was a Baathist. I think I've heard that before but I didn't pay much attention because I didn't know what a Baathist was. However, I am sure you know that because you researched it, or you know by experience, by knowing Baathists who say that Saddam was a Baathist.

 

In the same way, I trust what the disciples of Jesus said concerning Jesus. They told other people who in turn told other people who in turn told others, for generations. If people did not tell others, then nobody would even know who Jesus is today.

 

Knowledge is passed through people telling others, and belief is based on trusting in that knowledge.

 

you do not see, and therefore, faith must replace sight or other senses as a means to convince yourself that something actually exists. I posit that we cannot understand death, or its finality, and our ancestors created a means by which to explain and assuage the guilt we felt towards the finality of it all.

I agree that we cannot understand death unless we experience it. Now, there are people who claim to have come back from death (who had an experience where they technically "died" and were brought back) and we can choose to believe what they say or not. I have heard some reports that to me sound "hmm"? and others that I think sound more valid, but I myself do not know until I experience it. Now, for Atheists, their belief that there is nothing after death is founded on what exactly? Unless Atheists have come back from being technically dead and say, "Hey! Guess what! There's nothing after death!" then how does one know for sure? Also, there are Christians who have come back from being technically dead who describe Heaven or seeing Jesus (though the description of Jesus seems to depend on the person who is telling the story). So, who does one believe? Normally people believe those who have had experiences who they consider to be trustworthy. So, if you consider an Atheist who has had a "technically dead" experience account there is nothing after death to be truthful, then you would believe him/her based on his/her experience. Or, if you considered the Christian who had a "technically dead" experience account that there is Heaven after death to be truthful, then you would believe him/her based on his/her experience. Or, you would question both.

 

Do you see what I mean? Unless one personally experiences something, people just believe those who they trust to be truthful.

As far as differing opinions amongst christians, atheists, etc. That's all interpretation. It's a simple matter of opinion injected into logic. It is impossible to seperate the two.

It is true though that there are some Atheists who think everyone else is wrong. That is one reason I very much admire Agnostics, even though I'm not an Agnostic. Agnostics are much more objective and do not tend to take any extreme side one way or another.

I digress, however. My main point of contention is that unlike Hinduism/Unitarianism, Christianity and Abrahamic religions proclaim with alacrity their correctness, without allowing for any margin of error.

There are Christian Unitarians. There are also Jewish people who believe in G-d who think that there are many ways to get to Heaven or to be "correct", not just Abrahamic religions. One thing that interests me is that the subject of hell in Judaism. They don't believe what either Christians as a whole or Muslims believe concerning hell, which leads me to wonder how much the Christian hell is influenced by Romanic/Greek thought instead of Judaism.

 

Since Jesus is Jewish and quoted from the Tanakh, I sometimes wonder if Gentile Christians did not understand that ideas of Judaism concerning hell, which is radically different.

 

Have you ever studied the 7 Laws of Noah? They are very interesting.

[BetheButterfly]

No, I've not studied those laws, particularly.

 

They are very interesting to study. I studied them while studying why Jewish people who believe in G-d do not evangelize. One of the reasons is because their concept of hell does not include everyone who doesn't believe what they do. That is very interesting to me, since Jesus is Jewish and quoted from the Tanakh. Interestingly, the concept of an eternal torture chamber for nonbelievers is not a strong doctrine in the Tanakh.

 

Allow, for a moment, me to touch of the Baathist equation. We can, if you will, agree that perhaps it seems logical to believe in something one says due to the experience or research involved - however, it's apples and oranges. When I say Saddam is a Ba'athist (To be more correct), it's true and acceptable to believe because there is proof he was a Ba'athist, he led that political party, and I think we would both agree that he ruled Iraq as a dictator.

Aye. I agree. However, one thing that is important is that you (and I) had access to this information due to the following facts:

 

1. Saddam lived in our lifetimes, which always helps in receiving information concerning someone.

2. Saddam's life has been well-documented with video and evidence, including writings, as to his political party.

3. That access to the information is very convenientally available.

 

Now, the apostles of Jesus who walked and talked with him lived around 2000 years ago in a land far away (from me at least.) How do we even know about them today?

 

1. One reason is because the apostles of Jesus told others about Jesus, and this knowledge as well as their beliefs concerning him, spread around the world and continues to be told around the world, even though Jesus and his apostles lived around 2000 years ago! That is pretty cool!!! This is similar to Moses and children of Israel (Jacob), although interestingly, Moses and the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob did not generally become missionaries, from what I understand. Rather, they kept what they believed as part of their identity as a separate group of people from Gentiles, whereas Jesus' apostles learned that God wanted them to take the message about Jesus to Gentiles too.

 

2. Even though in that time period, there were no typewriters or computers, the people did work on memory and many were very skilled at memorizing and reciting orally what their grandfathers and great-grandfathers had told them. That is amazing to me. Scribes also wrote down the accounts. Both the Tanakh and the Christian Scriptures (the New Testament) have thousands of copies, which is a cool thing to study in itself. Due to this, the ancient writings of the Tanakh and Christian Scriptures are an important part of history.

 

3. The reason why the Christian Bible (which includes the Tanakh as the "Old Testament") is so widely available today is a really intriguing thing to study as well. Long time ago, the Christian Bible was not available to "the common folks." However, Europe's Reformation included the invention of the printing press by an interesting Christian German man, who said the following,

 

"It is a press, certainly, but a press from which shall flow in inexhaustible streams... Through it, God will spread His Word. A spring of truth shall flow from it: like a new star it shall scatter the darkness of ignorance, and cause a light heretofore unknown to shine amongst men."

― Johannes Gutenberg

 

The Reformation included the Bible being translated into German, English, and other languages, which is in part why I enjoy reading the Bible today!

 

 

When we compare the analogy to Christ and christians, as well as the apostles, it is not fair to say that any of them had logical, factual proof of divinity, nor did they have proof beyond superstition that heaven existed. There simply is no proof any of these things really exist. I've no doubt Jesus existed, as a man, with an ideal that he wished to give to the people. That doesn't make him the son of a god, it makes him a man with a belief.

Jesus quoted from the Tanakh. The Tanakh was written way before Jesus' time, by Moses, Joshua, and other prophets, including King David. I am not sure if Solomon was considered a prophet, but he wrote some (especially many of the Proverbs, as well as Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon).

 

The Tanakh was and still is to many descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel) extremely important because they believe it contains G-d's commands for them. Abraham was born around 4,000 years ago and his life experiences have shaped how many of his descendants believe. Jesus is a descendant of Abraham's son Isaac's son Jacob (Israel).

 

For this reason, it makes common sense that the apostles of Jesus, who are also Jewish, believe in G-d, as well as Jesus. The Jewish people have been amazing at continuing their beliefs and preserving their Scriptures, in spite of not having modern technology (till relatively recently in human history.)

 

As for Jesus being the "son of God", this is actually a part of Messianic prophecies/promises, accounted in the Tanakh. If one studies 2 Samuel 7, 1 Chronicles 17, Psalm 2, Psalm 89, Isaiah 7, Isaiah 9, and Isaiah 11, one can see how the descendant of David would be called "son of God." Many Jewish people who believe in G-d, however, did and do not believe that Jesus is actually the Messiah, son of God. However, some did, including Jesus' apostles and disciples, obviously. Today, Gentiles outnumber Jewish believers in Jesus, but there are still Jewish people who believe Jesus is the Messiah, Son of God.

 

 

As for death, which is more precarious? The notion that pearly gates, a bed full of virgins, eternal paradise exists beyond final sleep? Or, that life simply ends, and we do not know with any veracity what actually occurs once the veil in in place? I posit that life ends, and with life, ends the mind, and therefore, thought. Is it untrue that our bodies lay for a time, bloating, stiffening, blackening and eventually skin sloughs from flesh, flesh from bones, and with it all the memory of self?

What happens after death to our souls/spirits is a mystery. I am curious; do you believe that a human is only a body (which of course includes the brain) or do you believe that a human is a body (including the brain), soul, and spirit? I personally believe we are more than just a body. I consider our body to be "shells."

 

I harbor no ill will towards any person who practices a faith specifically, but the jurisdiction within which those faiths perpetuate. If a christian unitarian agress that many paths may be acceptable to gain entry to the pearly gates, why then does the bible pose that false paths, false idols, anything but his way will lead to eternal punishment and damnation?

That's cool. I also harbor no ill will towards any person who believes different than me. About the Bible teachings, you are referring yes to Jesus' teachings? That is what I am studying because I would like to see what ties in to the Tanakh and what has been influenced by Roman/Greek beliefs. It is possible that the teachings of Jesus concerning hell are parables that stress the importance of following God, yet the Roman and Greek thought (like Dante's Infierno) influenced how people today view Jesus' teachings on hell?

 

There's a verse in 1 Peter 3 which interests me which says the following, (I boldened some.)

"18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,[d] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,"

 

This interests me because apparently, the "imprisoned spirits" were not condemned to hell forever but were rather "imprisoned" until Jesus came and proclaimed to them... now I wonder if that means that afterwards, they went to Heaven? It doesn't say. I really am curious!!!

 

I think that's why it's important to pray, asking God for wisdom in order to understand, and also study what the Jewish people in Jesus' time believed concerning hell and heaven, because I do think that a lot of what Christians believe has been influenced by Roman/Greek thought, since Christianity became the "official" religion after the Roman empire first tortured and killed many of the early Christians, both Jewish and Gentile followers of Jesus (Yeshua)...and after Rome destroyed Jerusalem.

Edited October 18, 2012 by BetheButterfly

[Hawaii50]

It doesn't matter about thing, Butterfly.. All you've listed were semantics. At their roots, one pre-dates the other, and the later has more than enough in common (and from the same area) that the correlation is un-ignorable. The very roots of religion is a big miss communication and as elplague has said, you're sacrificing actual knowledge to have faith in something literally invented thousands of years ago.

 

Humans think they're soooo special.

 

I tell you that I have love in my heart, and common sense in my brain. I use both.

[Hawaii50]

Little Graphical Analysis

[BetheButterfly]

The story of jesus vs the story of horus?

 

Yep, and in having a discussion about them, it is good to research the history of both, since they have many differences.