mario_C Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 Why are women so negative about the "pickup artist" community? Granted, she supports online dating, but does she have a valid point?
LittlePrince Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 OLD is as bad as bars. Might as well go to bars. At least at bars you can get drunk. Then again you can get drunk at home for cheaper.
oaks Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 Granted, she supports online dating, but does she have a valid point? To the extent that she wants a relationship, and she observes that PUA seems to be about getting laid and is, therefore, a mismatch when its techniques are used on her, yes. She's just one datum, and much of the rest of the article is anecdotal (she observes that many of the men want a girlfriend, which isn't what PUA is designed for, but that's just from observing one class, for example). Anyway, interesting article, and she makes some interesting points. Yes, they are generally valid points (from the little I know about PUA) but I'll also note that PUA does seem to work for some guys in getting them what they want (which perhaps isn't what that author wants). Also, I'm not sure she answered the question in the title of her article. She did explain why she doesn't like PUA, though. 1
CarrieT Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 I really hate PUA and some of the points she makes in the article that I agree with: PUA instruction teaches guys these mechanical ways of interacting with women that don't really work and fails to recognize that every woman is different.The words coming out of a woman's mouth? It's not all a game. You can have actual conversations with us.Conversation is not all a giant game. When I'm not interested, it's because I'm not interested. Not because I'm putting some sort of girl test in front of you. 4
LittlePrince Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 Conversation is not all a giant game All conversation is a game of submission and domination.
LittlePrince Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 You can have actual conversations with us. No, it can't be done. Women act really weird when you talk to them for too long like 5 minutes.
CarrieT Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 All conversation is a game of submission and domination. Ummmm... being in a D/s relationship, I disagree with this. No, it can't be done. Women act really weird when you talk to them for too long like 5 minutes. Then you are talking to the wrong people. It CAN be done - but maybe you just don't know how to do it properly. 1
oaks Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 The words coming out of a woman's mouth? It's not all a game. You can have actual conversations with us.Conversation is not all a giant game. When I'm not interested, it's because I'm not interested. Not because I'm putting some sort of girl test in front of you. Some of the guys who 'need' PUA techniques can't have an actual conversation with you - they don't have those communications skills. That's one of the reasons they need PUA techniques. Similarly, some of them can't recognise when someone is uninterested, and other than wasting time they aren't really losing much by ploughing on regardless (and you might be the 1 girl in however-many hundred who was testing them by feigning disinterest - they do exist). But I agree with you.
MrCastle Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 I think some women are threatened by what's being taught. Some girls may hate pua techniques but very few of them say "they're wrong". They know deep down a lot of what they say is true/effective and I'd bet they fear that any man who is good with women is secretly just a pick up artist trying to pump and dump them. But it depends. Sure there is stuff that is wrong, and some of it is a money grab, but there is a lot of useful information that has helped plenty of men. I think the disconnect comes when women feel like they're being used, and there definitely are some men out there who use the material to manipulate women, but as the author said, the majority were nerdy, socially awkward guys. These are guys that just want to have some semblance of success with women. The stuff they read about will more than likely push them in a better direction to make that possible. By the way, I like the dig she took at shorter men. Not surprising 3
Imajerk17 Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 To the extent that she wants a relationship, and she observes that PUA seems to be about getting laid and is, therefore, a mismatch when its techniques are used on her, yes. She's just one datum, and much of the rest of the article is anecdotal (she observes that many of the men want a girlfriend, which isn't what PUA is designed for, but that's just from observing one class, for example). Anyway, interesting article, and she makes some interesting points. Yes, they are generally valid points (from the little I know about PUA) but I'll also note that PUA does seem to work for some guys in getting them what they want (which perhaps isn't what that author wants). Also, I'm not sure she answered the question in the title of her article. She did explain why she doesn't like PUA, though. I agree. She took one class. There are bad instructors and there are good instructors. The author also doesn't seem to get how most women actually date. For the woman to agree to a second date with the guy, she has to be feeling attraction, or "chemistry". Read the threads written by the women on this forum! The attraction part is the one component that nerdy guys struggle with, and so it is the part that is taught the most. As far as the whole "don't give a straight answer", ever notice that the posts that get the most likes are the funny ones? You don't keep it up all night but you better know how to make a woman laugh and you need to touch her appropriately. As far as OLD, you cant improve your dating life if you aren't meeting women. You can meet them online, you can meet them during the day, or you can meet them in bars. I know a few people who met their SO in a bar. I get that women in general don't like the concept of PUA training. They don't want to know that the guy they are into downloaded his personality for $49.95 from the Internet, or bought his personality from a dude with a funny pseudonym for $2000. BUT guys need to learn this stuff from somewhere. What is a better way for them to learn? By watching their friends and parents (who are surprisingly clueless about attraction). By coming on this forum? 3
LittlePrince Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 It CAN be done - but maybe you just don't know how to do it properly. The fault does not lie with me when they are the ones to come up with strange commentary, act suspicious of the most innocuous dialogue, and fail to express coherent, rational thought.
Revolver Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 I don't have a problem with PUA. I've read some of the material and its mostly basic stuff that any man who's even moderately successful with women knows. It mostly teaches confidence and not being scared to approach, but it's not any "magic" formula. Ive had someone use this example before, Think of it like that movie Hitch with will smith. Hitch technically wasn't doing anything, but hos clients belief that he was gave them confidence in a weird way and to me if a product is helping men be more confident and better with women I can't see how anyone could possibly be against it. Alot of women complain that men have poor conversation skills and lack confidence, but if something is helping them with that, how could you possibly be against it? The only way I can see that is if your upset that certain men are using PUA to expand their dating pool and become "players". Ive noticex When you break down all the people that criticize PUA, that's what it comes down to 99% of the time
oaks Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 I get that women in general don't like the concept of PUA training. Partly because they're scared that it actually works (for some guys). (although I do have nagging thoughts that the whole industry is designed to part chumps from their money)
MrCastle Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 Alot of women complain that men have poor conversation skills and lack confidence, but if something is helping them with that, how could you possibly be against it? Someone on another forum had a very good quote for that, in my opinion. Something like "Girls don't want to date the guy trying to be James Bond, they want to date James Bond" 1
LittlePrince Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 I don't have a problem with PUA. I've read some of the material and its mostly basic stuff that any man who's even moderately successful with women knows. It mostly teaches confidence and not being scared to approach, but it's not any "magic" formula. Ive had someone use this example before, Think of it like that movie Hitch with will smith. Hitch technically wasn't doing anything, but hos clients belief that he was gave them confidence in a weird way and to me if a product is helping men be more confident and better with women I can't see how anyone could possibly be against it. Alot of women complain that men have poor conversation skills and lack confidence, but if something is helping them with that, how could you possibly be against it? The only way I can see that is if your upset that certain men are using PUA to expand their dating pool and become "players". Ive noticex When you break down all the people that criticize PUA, that's what it comes down to 99% of the time or they think the men they didn't like in high school should stay in their place firmly under their heel. 2
MrCastle Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 Partly because they're scared that it actually works (for some guys). (although I do have nagging thoughts that the whole industry is designed to part chumps from their money) I think there definitely is some of that going around. It's harder to do that now, though, with torrents and other means of file sharing. Also, there are plenty of pua forums where men just speak freely and exchange ideas and techniques.
verhrzn Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 I mostly don't like it because it doesn't work on me. In fact, it makes me run in the other direction. Of course, I am also not who PUAs are chasing... ironically, these nerdy and awkward guys could be dating nerdy and awkward girls just like themselves, who would enjoy them for who they are without manuals or classes. But instead these nerdy and awkward guys are taking classes to chase after the hot girls. It just seems sad to me that a guy would completely change his behavior and personality to score with someone they deem worthy, instead of learning to accept himself and settling with a girl who actually digs who he is naturally. 1
oaks Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 It just seems sad to me that a guy would completely change his behavior and personality to score with someone they deem worthy, instead of learning to accept himself and settling with a girl who actually digs who he is naturally. I agree with everything you wrote in that post apart from "settling". Why should a guy (or anyone) court someone they don't fancy?
MrCastle Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 or they think the men they didn't like in high school should stay in their place firmly under their heel. Truth. I also think there is a bit of jealousy involved. Well, I don't know if that's the right word, but it's close. A man can read some pick up artist stuff for free on the internet, and right away, start improving his dating odds, that's before working out, changing his fashion sense, or doing anything else involving physical improvement or spending money. How many women can read a pdf file and go out and improve their dating?
ThaWholigan Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 I agree. She took one class. There are bad instructors and there are good instructors. The author also doesn't seem to get how most women actually date. For the woman to agree to a second date with the guy, she has to be feeling attraction, or "chemistry". Read the threads written by the women on this forum! The attraction part is the one component that nerdy guys struggle with, and so it is the part that is taught the most. As far as the whole "don't give a straight answer", ever notice that the posts that get the most likes are the funny ones? You don't keep it up all night but you better know how to make a woman laugh and you need to touch her appropriately. As far as OLD, you cant improve your dating life if you aren't meeting women. You can meet them online, you can meet them during the day, or you can meet them in bars. I know a few people who met their SO in a bar. I get that women in general don't like the concept of PUA training. They don't want to know that the guy they are into downloaded his personality for $49.95 from the Internet, or bought his personality from a dude with a funny pseudonym for $2000. BUT guys need to learn this stuff from somewhere. What is a better way for them to learn? By watching their friends and parents (who are surprisingly clueless about attraction). By coming on this forum? Agree with all of this. When I became interested in attraction, I realised that there are many dynamics that come easily to some guys that others find difficult to pick up. PUA helps with this, despite the dubious nature that accompanies the useful information. There is some excellent PUA stuff that I have read that really helped me - without me having to sacrifice any respect for women or disrespect their disinterest. If PUA isn't what is going to help these guys, then what is? Because trust me, I did my own research and most of the literature and thing available are quite subpar. 1
LittlePrince Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 I mostly don't like it because it doesn't work on me. In fact, it makes me run in the other direction. Of course, I am also not who PUAs are chasing... ironically, these nerdy and awkward guys could be dating nerdy and awkward girls just like themselves, who would enjoy them for who they are without manuals or classes. But instead these nerdy and awkward guys are taking classes to chase after the hot girls. It just seems sad to me that a guy would completely change his behavior and personality to score with someone they deem worthy, instead of learning to accept himself and settling with a girl who actually digs who he is naturally. Nerdy and awkward girls wouldn't date these guys. I call it the Meg-Neil effect. Besides some of those girls are hot. 4
ThaWholigan Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 I agree with everything you wrote in that post apart from "settling". Why should a guy (or anyone) court someone they don't fancy? Exactly. That's what I didn't like about the article, the focus on leagues. Sure, the fat, short dude may struggle to get the supermodel (I've seen it happen in real life though), but honestly - why should they date someone they aren't attracted to? Just because they suck with women?
verhrzn Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 I agree with everything you wrote in that post apart from "settling". Why should a guy (or anyone) court someone they don't fancy? *Shrugs* Women are told to do it all the time. "Stop being so high maintenance", "stop expecting Prince Charming", "stop being so unreasonable about your expectations"..... maybe it's time men heard it too. I've been told that wanting a guy who finds me beautiful and sexy is too much, and that I should just settle for a guy who thinks I'm decent looking. Why should women settle, and guys shouldn't? 2
MrCastle Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 Agree with all of this. When I became interested in attraction, I realised that there are many dynamics that come easily to some guys that others find difficult to pick up. PUA helps with this, despite the dubious nature that accompanies the useful information. There is some excellent PUA stuff that I have read that really helped me - without me having to sacrifice any respect for women or disrespect their disinterest. If PUA isn't what is going to help these guys, then what is? Because trust me, I did my own research and most of the literature and thing available are quite subpar. Agreed, but you already know I've discussed the "perversion of the material" angle of all this before, so I'll spare it for the most part. But yeah, there's definitely some men on pua forums who brag about sleeping with a woman, and then sleeping with her friend behind her back, or reveling in the lies they spin in order to get laid, I mean dark stuff. Those men perverted the material, and I feel it's not the material that made them bad, they were bad to begin with. On the other hand, there are men who are just fed up with striking out with girls, after years of believing what the media fed them about looks don't matter and nice guys win, and they realized whoa, that's bull****. They have to make up for lost time and pua material gives them a spring board to success. 1
Imajerk17 Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 One more thing: It's funny that the author mentions OLD of all things. You basically have many a girl getting 50 emails a day from guys. For her to answer *your* email out of all the emails she is getting from the other dudes on the site, you need to know "what to say" EVEN MORE than you would trying to meet a woman via cold approach. (And it is NOT the Nice Guy way of writing her 3 full paragraphs of compliments!) Otherwise you probably won't get *any* response. 2
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