Losing faith in the existance of god

[TheFinalWord]

You asked me what constitutes a "good" desire. I gave you two examples.

 

Right. I went and interviewed every unhappy and miserable person on this planet who died without a purpose in this life. And you're right. They all told me it was God's plan for them to be this way and that I was wrong.

 

So then the innocent people suffering on this planet have not been not been abandoned by God? After all, Christ took this punishment unto Himself.

 

I can see this isn't going anywhere Best to you!

[Eve]

That's not true. Many people live their whole lives without seeing even their most basic, good desires fulfilled. Some only seek to do God's will in this life and die never knowing what that was.

 

Who are you thinking about? I am curious.

 

I have seen and heard many testimonies of faith and these testimonies seem to cover every eventuality. As such I have reasoned that although my prayer in one way may not have been answered, the theme or situation has been covered for another. This gives me hope when I pray. Usually my prayer is of thanks giving for what I have as I reach out for something new. This kind of developed via having greater confidence in God and seeing that others are meeting their needs and the needs of others via the growth of their faith as well as by divine intervention.

 

Personally I no longer feel over whelmed by the wants and needs of others. Injustice is a theme which I do not think we should ever become deaf to though and I see it as part of my duty as a human being and Christian to participate and help where I am called to be off help.

 

I have noted that for some, their area of work can be something which makes them question how they can be of help; those not involved in the caring industry. Doing a job which has little to do with humanitarian need can provoke a sense that one is not doing all they can/God is not doing as much as He can. In such situations that I have come across, I have advised that the person get involved in volunteering/ministy of some sort to bridge the gap they are aware off in themselves and in their faith.

 

So, in total, I see us as the body of Christ who are working together to reconcile man with God - but mostly we do not experience the fullness of Salvation in our own bodies completely. That is part of a greater promise which will be realised but aspects of this reconciliation is evident during our walk.

 

Take care,

Eve x

[Eve]

What I'm specifically interested in is how Christians might say they could tell if somebody else's claims of answered prayers are valid or not.

 

 

.. By their testimony of faith. As good example was given here.

 

Take care,

Eve x

[Feelin Frisky]

One of the things I desire most in life is to have a girlfriend. When my family went to church, I would always pray for the same thing. This went on for 10 years and nothing happened. If there is a god, I believe that he is probably cruel and sadistic. I constantly am surrounded by girls but none of them will date me. All of my friends have no problem getting girls, yet I still am the only one with no luck. If god plans on me being single for life, I would renounce him. Over the past few months, I am starting to believe that there is no god or afterlife. If there is a god, why would he torture me like this?

 

Why should you or anyone else think that there is a super-natural being you can simply pray to and the laws of nature and physics will be suspended so that your or their reality can be customized favorably for them? How much do people need to see to start retiring the absolute foolishness of divine intervention? If the natural laws and systems that make for the consistencies of life were periodically suspended for this type of granting of wishes, there would be absolutely no society, no invention, no science, no progress--everyone would think every THING is a matter of supernatural favor or disfavor and almost everything would center around what it does in primitive societies who indeed still do live in the stone age--i.e., ritual, sacrifice, extreme ceremony, yielding of one's potential to the prescriptions of dogma. Whether there is a god or not, whther there was an act of creation billions of years ago or not, the simple facts are that there is no intervention by any kind of super-natural being in the movement of existence. So take it for a fact that every moment spent praying for a girlfriend is a moment thrown away.

 

That's not to say that going to church can't get you interaction with women where you may find one who'll go with you but the prayer and ritual and passivity of the ritual will do nothing. You have to assert yourself all the time for what you want. No one is going to just give it to you. If you want to hang on o your faith, go ahead--but know that when you go to church it's up to you to either assert yourself with women or get other people to play cupid for you and fix you up with someone. Chucking your faith away entirely may do worse to help you get a mate if you don't do other things that "market" you to women. Millions of people are single and lonely hearted and there is no prayer or ritual that will change that just as 6 million European Jews couldn't pray away the Nazis. Wake up and get real.

[KathyM]

Not true.

Name one person who has never suffered in any way. You can't. We've all become sick at times. We've all struggled in some way. Even those who have seemingly advantaged lives have struggled with various emotional or psychological things, even if their physical needs have always been met.

 

 

Exactly, why is that?

Why do some suffer more than others? Man's punishment for sin--for disobedience to God--has been that there will be suffering, hardship and death in this earthly life. And everyone experiences that to some extent--some more than others. Some people have disease to deal with. Some have financial hardship. We all will experience death on this earth. This is man's cross to bear as punishment for our sins. Christians are not spared from pain and suffering on this earth. And it is random, or sometimes based on life choices. This world is not revolving around fairness. Hate to break it to you, but life is not fair. This world is not about fairness. Many good Christians suffer with poverty, illness, and other difficult life issues, just as many non-Christians do.

 

 

 

What sin has an innocent baby stricken with a horrible disease committed?

Original sin. We are all sinners, as are our ancestors, from the beginning of mankind. An innocent baby is born of sinful parents, and will go on to become a sinner. Our punishment for the original sin committed by Adam and Eve is that all of mankind will suffer, will struggle, and will eventually die on this earth.

 

 

 

Yet some people people have an almost perfect life, while others suffer horribly. I'm a christian, how come I don't understand this?

I assume you are just trolling. If you were really a Christian, you would know the answer to these questions, and would not be arguing with fellow Christians about these things.

[TheFinalWord]

 

My contention is that prayer is simply talking to oneself. There is nothing out there listening and answering them. The effect of praying is strictly limited to:

 

• A calming, meditative-like state.
  
• Potentially useful internal dialogue.
  

 

Well, then we can probably agree there are health benefits? I have a feeling we will not agree on the purpose or benefits of prayer, so I am trying to find some common ground

 

For those that claim otherwise, it is up to them to outline some way by which those claims can be tested. Is there any test at all on which they would hinge their belief in an interventionist deity on the outcome?

 

Then the devil took him to the holy city and set him on the pinnacle of the temple and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written,“‘He will command his angels concerning you,’and“‘On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.’” Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”

 

The answer to the above question is always no. Prayer remains subjective, self-authenticating and unfalsifiable.

 

Like I've said here a few times, until we humble our self before the Lord, prayer will always seem nonsensical to us. Prayer is recognition that we need God. It's an act of submissiveness to the Lord and His Will for our life.

 

"Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. “Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will."

 

Prayer is refining tool God uses to refine and teach us. The outcome of prayer is to fulfill the Will of God in our lives and to manifest Christ in our daily lives. Until we see God's Will as a worthwhile endeavor and the nature of Christ as something desirous, prayer will always appear a useless vehicle for accomplishing anything. As useless as Christ Himself, to those that reject Him. Peace <><

[skydiveaddict]

Name one person who has never suffered in any way. You can't.

 

You're acting as though one brand of suffering is equal to another. It is not.

 

Ahh, let's see. The six million Jews slaughtered by the nazis in WWII. The twenty million Russians they were also responsible for butchering. Pol Pot, who murdered twenty percent of the Cambodians during his reign. Mao Zedong, responsible for between twenty and seventy million deaths during the Chinese communist revolution. Murders and horrible torture by the taliban; I've seen that first hand. Not to mention all the people around the world suffering from starvation and horrible sickness. And relatives and friends of mine I've seen suffer and die.

 

 

Even those who have seemingly advantaged lives have struggled with various emotional or psychological things, even if their physical needs have always been met.

 

Really? How do you know that? You just got done telling me that I could not name a single person who has never suffered.

 

Why do some suffer more than others? Man's punishment for sin--for disobedience to God--has been that there will be suffering, hardship and death in this earthly life.

 

Disobedience? How can a six month old baby dying of cancer have been disobedient? And why does this baby deserve to suffer more than others?

 

 

And everyone experiences that to some extent--some more than others.

 

Why? Why some more than others? Where is the justice in that?

 

 

Original sin. We are all sinners, as are our ancestors, from the beginning of mankind. An innocent baby is born of sinful parents, and will go on to become a sinner. Our punishment for the original sin committed by Adam and Eve is that all of mankind will suffer, will struggle, and will eventually die on this earth.

 

Baptism cleanses us from original sin. So again, why do baptized babies sometimes die when their original sin is cleansed and they cannot possibly have any culpability in further sin?

 

 

I assume you are just trolling. If you were really a Christian, you would know the answer to these questions, and would not be arguing with fellow Christians about these things.

 

A typical response. I've been a christian all my life. But since you can't logically answer any of my questions, you label me a "troll."

Edited October 15, 2012 by skydiveaddict

[Eve]

Which is all just opinion though. The best you could achieve is some kind of consensus, but even then you'd be left with a consensus of people who are just as likely to be wrong as right.

 

It's similar to when some Christians claim that anyone who loses faith never had it to begin with. It's a useless hypothesis in exactly the same way because you can never use anything to say who has faith and who doesn't, because anybody could deconvert tomorrow (and then maybe reconvert at some time in the future). And right up until that point of deconversion, everybody would say "wow, what great faith that guy has!" Then it turned out he never had any at all.

 

There's no aspect of any religious claim that could be used as a test to whether it's true or not. The proof in the pudding is always shifting, or is held over until after we're all dead.

 

While I don't mean to create a direct comparison between science and religion, because they are afterall different things, the crucial aspect (for me) is one that science embodies and religion more or less scoffs at, and that is falsifiability. Or, to put it another way, honesty.

 

That's the problem I have: nearly all forms of religion are entirely consistent with people just making things up and rationalising out the differences after the fact.

 

I would say that you feel more confident with the system of triangulating (ensuring that specific points match) scientific data - but I would say that there is a system of triangulation within Christianity which is not hard to decipher. Claiming that this system is false is not a good start to make methinks but hey! as I have said, there is no reason for you to think differently.

 

If the OP were stating that he actually was following the said system (won't go into Bible verses as I am sure you are aware of the essential composites of the Christian faith) and nowt happened. THIS I am interested in and would muse upon/share relevant thoughts. Essentially misusing or not using the system of faith and then complaining about the outcome.. I don't see what else can be said.

 

Anyhow, I will muse further later on as my favourite brother is coming to stay for a few days.

 

Thank you for not being a dick in your post. I am not used to explaining my faith but it is good to look at the what's and why's.

 

Take care,

Eve x

[Eve]

Is that in contrast to all the other times when I am?

 

You can be very amusing.. but yes, you can be a dick too, lol. You cussed me out the other day remember? Still, I like you. Not sure why but I do.

 

 

Take care,

Eve x

[TheFinalWord]

You can be very amusing.. but yes, you can be a dick too, lol. You cussed me out the other day remember? Still, I like you. Not sure why but I do.

 

 

Take care,

Eve x

 

QuickJoe is a good guy This forum would be boring w/out him and M30USA...and everyone knows it

[TheFinalWord]

As I suspected, no. And, sorry to be blunt, that's where my interest in this discussion ends.

 

Not even the health benefits? Darn I was hoping that would be one area of agreement. Oh well, I tried

[KathyM]

You're acting as though one brand of suffering is equal to another. It is not.

I never said it was. I said everyone suffers at some times in the their life--some more than others.

Ahh, let's see. The six million Jews slaughtered by the nazis in WWII. The twenty million Russians they were also responsible for butchering. Pol Pot, who murdered twenty percent of the Cambodians during his reign. Mao Zedong, responsible for between twenty and seventy million deaths during the Chinese communist revolution. Murders and horrible torture by the taliban; I've seen that first hand. Not to mention all the people around the world suffering from starvation and horrible sickness. And relatives and friends of mine I've seen suffer and die.

We've all seen and heard about suffering in this world. What is your point? That suffering should be equal? That nobody should have to suffer? That would be nice, wouldn't it? But that is for paradise. This world is no longer paradise. Maybe you think that it should be, but man has chosen to go against God's plan and His will, and that is why we no longer have paradise. You seem to want to blame God for that, but it was a consequence of our disobedience.

 

 

 

Really? How do you know that? You just got done telling me that I could not name a single person who has never suffered.

Everyone has suffered to some extent as the result of our disobedience to God. Some suffer more than others. You can't name a single person who has never suffered.

 

 

Disobedience? How can a six month old baby dying of cancer have been disobedient? And why does this baby deserve to suffer more than others?

Everyone in this world has a risk of disease, poverty, etc., etc., and we will all die an earthly death. That is God's punishment for the original sin of mankind. You may not like that, just as a child doesn't like any kind of punishment from a parent, but that is what God chose to do. Who are you to say that God doesn't have a right to decide these things? This world is not paradise, but the next one will be, for those who want to accept it. Consider this. That baby who has suffered and died an early death is now free from pain and suffering and is experiencing paradise in heaven. He's actually better off than if he had to struggle 80 years to get to the point of death. We may feel sympathy for the suffering he had to go through on this earth, just as we feel sympathy for the suffering of an elderly person that he experiences before death. But that is what this life holds for all of us at some point. Some earlier than others. But those children who are too young to understand and make a choice to follow God before experiencing death will still receive paradise with God. So we can sympathize with the suffering, but understand that the reward in heaven is great, and that is the child's ultimate fate.

 

 

 

Why? Why some more than others? Where is the justice in that?

This world is not a just one. The next one will be--where we will be rewarded according to how we've lived our lives on earth.

 

 

 

Baptism cleanses us from original sin. So again, why do baptized babies sometimes die when their original sin is cleansed and they cannot possibly have any culpability in further sin?

Baptism is a ritual that signifies the point of turning away from sin and starting a Christ-centered life. I don't believe in infant baptism. A person needs to make a choice that he is going to turn his sinful ways around, and he needs to have the mental capability to make that choice. Baptism is meant to be a choice to turn from sinful ways. But that doesn't mean that we will never sin again, obviously. We have a sinful nature. It doesn't work that way, that once you are baptized, you are forever cleansed from your sin. You have to actively turn from sin, and desire to live a life free from sin, and continue your repentance on an ongoing basis. Baptism is just a ritual, a symbolic act, that signifies the turning away from a sinful life.

 

 

 

A typical response. I've been a christian all my life. But since you can't logically answer any of my questions, you label me a "troll."

If you are a Christian, then why are you trying to find fault with God's reasoning and actions? You may want to explore that with your pastor or priest.

[pie2]

QuickJoe is a good guy This forum would be boring w/out him and M30USA...and everyone knows it

 

Shhh!

 

(It'll go straight to their heads)

 

[Shaun-Dro]

One of the things I desire most in life is to have a girlfriend. When my family went to church, I would always pray for the same thing. This went on for 10 years and nothing happened. If there is a god, I believe that he is probably cruel and sadistic. I constantly am surrounded by girls but none of them will date me. All of my friends have no problem getting girls, yet I still am the only one with no luck. If god plans on me being single for life, I would renounce him. Over the past few months, I am starting to believe that there is no god or afterlife. If there is a god, why would he torture me like this?

 

This is a stupid ass thread! God isn't interested in handing you over some dame just to satisfy your sexual urges. There's plenty of ass out there for you to seek out. Just grow a pair and get it!

 

If you were smart, you should be thanking the Lord for supplying so much access to women, where they outnumber men almost 10 to 1.

[skydiveaddict]

If you are a Christian, then why are you trying to find fault with God's reasoning and actions?

 

Because reasoning is part of the human condition. If I attack someone without cause, that person would naturally like to know the reason. So when innocent folks suffer, I want to know the reason.

 

You have me at a distinct disadvantage though. Your faith seems unshakable, while mine is faltering, almost gone.

[BetheButterfly]

One of the things I desire most in life is to have a girlfriend. When my family went to church, I would always pray for the same thing. This went on for 10 years and nothing happened. If there is a god, I believe that he is probably cruel and sadistic. I constantly am surrounded by girls but none of them will date me. All of my friends have no problem getting girls, yet I still am the only one with no luck. If god plans on me being single for life, I would renounce him. Over the past few months, I am starting to believe that there is no god or afterlife. If there is a god, why would he torture me like this?

 

I just watched a youtube about Lizzie Valesquez, who some people made a horrible mocking video of and called her the "world's ugliest woman." However, she is so beautiful on the inside and she doesn't blame God for her appearance or the disease that has caused her to look different than others. If a girl who is suffering and mocked still believes in the goodness and love of God, I think that shows her strength of character and trust for the Being many people believe is the Creator of us all!!! I think that God will greatly bless her for her faith.

 

The answer to her question below is amazing and it is so true how she is using the syndrome to help bless others, instead of wallowing in self-pity.

 

1 Lizzie Velasquez interview overcoming obstacles - Beliefnet.com

 

"A hard or painful question to answer, but I know many will ask after reading this will be, If God loves you so much, why he allowed you to "suffer" from an "undiagnosed" syndrome? [FONT=Georgia] [/FONT]

Towards the beginning of middle school I went through a phase where I was so angry with God. I could not understand why he punished me with a syndrome that not only no one knows a thing about but one that causes me to be ridiculed and judged because of my appearance. It wasn’t until high school that I started realizing that no matter how hard I prayed, no matter how many times I wished upon a star, I was never going to wake up in the morning and magically look like everyone else.

 

 

My mindset started turning and I started realizing that maybe there was a reason that God decided to make me so unique. It hit me that my attitude is what is going to make or break me. I could either stay in my room feeling sorry for myself or I can start looking at the bright side of things because even though I had it rough there is always someone else out there who is worse off than I am. Once I started on the path of self-acceptance everything started to make sense. God didn’t punish me with this syndrome; he gave me one of the biggest blessings in my entire life.

 

 

Having this syndrome has opened up so many doors for me to help other people who are feeling like they aren’t good enough. They might not have my syndrome and know what it’s like to be in my shoes but I can be someone they can relate to who has gone through similar struggles as they have. Looking back I feel so guilty that I was ever angry with God for this syndrome when he actually blessed me with it. "

[KathyM]

Because reasoning is part of the human condition. If I attack someone without cause, that person would naturally like to know the reason. So when innocent folks suffer, I want to know the reason.

 

You have me at a distinct disadvantage though. Your faith seems unshakable, while mine is faltering, almost gone.

It is when life is difficult that we need God the most. I have had many struggles in my life, some of which would test even the strongest faith. But I realize how much God has shown his presence in my life and in the lives of those I know, in a way that makes it very obvious to me that He is with us, and is caring for us. The trials I have had have really tested my faith, but they have also increased my faith, and I have no doubt in my mind of God's existence.

[TheFinalWord]

You have me at a distinct disadvantage though. Your faith seems unshakable, while mine is faltering, almost gone.

 

No worries friend. We all have these crises of faith periods in our lives. I kind of felt bad debating with you here once I read you were going through this. I know for me, when I had this time in my life, no one could get through to me. It's one of those times when you have to figure it out on your own, in a way. Just you, God, prayer, and bible At least that's what helped me. Praying for you!! <><

[skydiveaddict]

No worries friend. We all have these crises of faith periods in our lives. I kind of felt bad debating with you here once I read you were going through this. I know for me, when I had this time in my life, no one could get through to me. It's one of those times when you have to figure it out on your own, in a way. Just you, God, prayer, and bible At least that's what helped me. Praying for you!! <><

 

Thanks bro. i rather think it's all this PTSD **** they say I'm dealing with.