Eve Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 That's an excellent idea, because you quickly realise that supernatural beings are an entirely unnecessary hypothesis, and only serve as a distraction from real issues. Add in there, 'in my experience', or 'to me'. It reads better - more factual. I mean, why would you know any different? Take care, Eve x 1 Link to post Share on other sites
pie2 Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 What I'm specifically disputing is that time spent behoving a supernatural being to intercede on our behalf is not a monumental waste of time. A placebo can be a very effective intervention. Link to post Share on other sites
mercy Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Man can choose to stop evil. He doesn't. Why not start there? YES! Lets put accountability where accountability belongs - at the feet of man. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Eve Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 This is not a "belief versus non-belief" stance I'm taking, but an "action versus inaction" stance. Plenty of believers acknowledge that action is neccessary, and I agree with them. What I'm specifically disputing is that time spent behoving a supernatural being to intercede on our behalf is not a monumental waste of time. In short, the 'action' and 'inaction' you speak off is still broken down within the ability to take note of a basic understanding (at very least) of what constitutes false questioning practices. Now, if one does not want to use the prescribed measure, what more can be given to them? Hence, I called BS here on this thread as there is no evidence of faith... as that is theme of this side of the board. Anyhow, the OP has rightly gone seeking further perspectives in the general relationship sections, so all is well. Take care, Eve x 2 Link to post Share on other sites
mercy Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1KJV) 4 Link to post Share on other sites
TheFinalWord Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 There is definite ways to know if the answer is yes/no (wait is still yes). If you pray and God moves mountains, you know the answer is yes. But overall, until we yield to God, prayer will be a mystery. Prayer is rooted in God's Will for our lives. If we're not seeking His Will, then it will appear useless. God has a personal relationship with each person, so there is no one size fits all. How he answers my prayer, may be quite different than how he answers someone's elses. Overall, prayer is to change us, not God. Which is why the OP is praying wrong. He doesn't care about letting God change his heart, only getting what he wants even though he is not equipped spiritually to do what God commands in this area for husbands. "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body.“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband." In regards to praying for a spouse, this has recently begun happening for me. It is a natural desire to want a spouse, so it's good to pray for it. "It's not good for a man to be alone". But we as men can't receive such a prayer until we are ready for it, spiritually. OP has a ways to go before he can receive it if he wants God's Will in this area. Is he willing to sacrifice for a woman the way Christ gave himself for the church? That should be his prayer right now, but step 1 is to let the pride go. I would be happy to share to OP how to pray for this from a man's perspective, but the first thing he needs to do is what I said: Clean up that stubborn heart. He can't walk in sacrificial love with a "I'll buy a girl" mentality. If a man wants to be a husband he has to obtain leadership qualities worthy of that, which is where his prayers need to focus on. Holding onto a stubborn heart is a recipe for disaster. Too many men live in extended adolescence today. If he wants a wife, he needs to become a man and lose the "I'll show you" rebel heart. Adolescence: Boys Who Can Shave - YouTube Prayer is a sign of humility, "God I need you in my life, I desire to serve you". Until we humble ourselves, prayer is useless. We can't humble ourselves until we get the pride out. Men are supposed to be leaders. Not blaming people or God. Not a big deal, we all have these times when we are mad at God, a crisis of faith if you will. When this happens he needs men to shake him out of it, which is why it may seem a bit harsh what I am trying to remove the folly from his heart. But God gave all men courage to get back up and follow God, even when discouraged. And I would be more than willing to counsel this man. Need to see some humility first, otherwise it's a waste of time. "For the righteous falls seven times and rises again, but the wicked stumble in times of calamity." -- Proverbs 24:16 Link to post Share on other sites
Author Sun Devil Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 Harmfulsweetz, I never prayed for a girl I can own. I always wanted to experience romance with a girl. Instead, all I get is rejection and I see girls dating guys who treat them badly. All my friends have experienced relationships and I am the only one who has not. I see girls every day and I approach them, but all they do is reject me. I have decided to take control of my own fate. I am done with praying to god since he wont answer. I see religion as blindly following something that could be nothing more than a fraud. I am glad that I am working with science, which unlike religion, actually has accomplished something useful. I suggest that other people stop blindly following faith and accept reality instead Link to post Share on other sites
skydiveaddict Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 (edited) Over the past few months, I am starting to believe that there is no god or afterlife. I know how you feel. I've had persistent doubts like this my entire life. Edited October 14, 2012 by skydiveaddict Link to post Share on other sites
skydiveaddict Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 I dont think god loves us. There is a lot of suffering in the world. I partially agree. He loves some of us, others He does not. If He loves us all, He would not give some of us happy, fulfilled lives, while other innocent people suffer horribly. He is unable or unwilling to stop evil. He is unwilling. Otherwise innocent people would not suffer. Link to post Share on other sites
KathyM Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 I partially agree. He loves some of us, others He does not. If He loves us all, He would not give some of us happy, fulfilled lives, while other innocent people suffer horribly. He is unwilling. Otherwise innocent people would not suffer. God loves ALL people. They are ALL His creation. You are saying that those who experience an easy life or a life with little to no pain are the only ones He loves, and that is why they have the good circumstances that they do. The fact is, pain and suffering come into both the believers' lives and the unbelievers' lives. God has made no promise that there will be no suffering or disappointment in life. His promise is that He will help us to withstand the difficult things that come our way in this life. That is His promise for this life--that He will be there for those that seek Him. Not that their lives will be perfect and without pain, but that He will bring them peace in times of trial, and strength to endure whatever difficulties we come across in life. And His promise is that upon the end of our earthly life, we will receive that perfect life with Him in heaven. He doesn't promise a perfect, pain-free life on this earth for anyone--not His followers, and not unbelievers. Our perfect, pain-free world will be in heaven. That is His promise to His followers. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
pie2 Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 So, entirely subjective. That sounds to me like there is no possibility of independent verification, and it essentially comes down to "if I think my prayer was answered, then it was". Am I far wrong? I think I could pray a verifiable prayer.... "God, I pray that someone else posts another post on this thread". If my prayer is answered, then would you believe? 2 Link to post Share on other sites
pie2 Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 (edited) See!!! God can use anyone to answer prayers Amen! lol Thank you nothing71, you've been an answer to prayer. Edited October 14, 2012 by pie2 2 Link to post Share on other sites
skydiveaddict Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 God loves ALL people. Then why do some suffer but others do not? You are saying that those who experience an easy life or a life with little to no pain are the only ones He loves, and that is why they have the good circumstances that they do. Yes, that is what I'm saying. The fact is, pain and suffering come into both the believers' lives and the unbelievers' lives. Not everyone, some people lead wonderful, happy fulfilling lives who don't even believe in God. His promise is that He will help us to withstand the difficult things that come our way in this life. That is His promise for this life--that He will be there for those that seek Him. Really? How can, for instance, a small child stricken with a horrible disease "withstand" its suffering? What would you say to this child's parents? "Don't despair, God loves your baby? How could you possibly expect anyone to see God's "love" in that? Link to post Share on other sites
thatone Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Harmfulsweetz, I never prayed for a girl I can own. I always wanted to experience romance with a girl. Instead, all I get is rejection and I see girls dating guys who treat them badly. All my friends have experienced relationships and I am the only one who has not. I see girls every day and I approach them, but all they do is reject me. I have decided to take control of my own fate. I am done with praying to god since he wont answer. I see religion as blindly following something that could be nothing more than a fraud. I am glad that I am working with science, which unlike religion, actually has accomplished something useful. I suggest that other people stop blindly following faith and accept reality instead by the same argument you are at fault for your lack of success with women and need to figure out what's wrong with you and fix it. it's not 'god's will' when there is no god. Link to post Share on other sites
KathyM Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Then why do some suffer but others do not? All have suffered in some ways, but moreso for some than others. There is suffering in this world because of sin. Our sinfulness has brought the wrath of God onto us, and we no longer have paradise, but because of sin, we have a fallen world, full of suffering and pain, both for the believers and the unbelievers. God has given up on this world, where pain and suffering will continue to exist, but He has not given up on us, and His promise is that we will receive paradise with Him when our earthly life has ended, if we chose to accept His way that He has provided for that. Yes, that is what I'm saying. Not everyone, some people lead wonderful, happy fulfilling lives who don't even believe in God. Really? How can, for instance, a small child stricken with a horrible disease "withstand" its suffering? What would you say to this child's parents? "Don't despair, God loves your baby? How could you possibly expect anyone to see God's "love" in that? Those who are Christians understand that God doesn't promise us a perfect life on earth. We understand that there are going to be trials, pain, suffering, and ultimately death. That is the punishment that God has brought onto this earth because of our sin. We had a perfect world. We had paradise. But because of sin (through the sin of Adam and Eve), God has taken away paradise from us as punishment. Because of our sin, there will be suffering, disease, and death. God has given this world over to Satan, but has promised us a new paradise, which we will receive when this earthly life is over, if we choose that life with Him in paradise. He has given us the choice to choose paradise, and has given us the way to find it. Paradise is no longer on this earth. Our paradise is in heaven with Him. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
pie2 Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 See!!! God can use anyone to answer prayers Amen! lol Thank you nothing71, you've been an answer to prayer. p.s. I did not answer my own post...really, there was another poster in there at one point! Link to post Share on other sites
skydiveaddict Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 All have suffered in some ways, Not true. but moreso for some than others. Exactly, why is that? There is suffering in this world because of sin. What sin has an innocent baby stricken with a horrible disease committed? Those who are Christians understand that God doesn't promise us a perfect life on earth. Yet some people people have an almost perfect life, while others suffer horribly. I'm a christian, how come I don't understand this? Link to post Share on other sites
TheFinalWord Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 I'll assume you're talking metaphorically here. haha yeah Any barrier that seems impassable by human might, but stands in your path to accomplishing God's Will for your life. So, entirely subjective. That sounds to me like there is no possibility of independent verification, and it essentially comes down to "if I think my prayer was answered, then it was". Am I far wrong? No, I don't think you're wrong. I think you are honestly trying to find a way to know if prayer works or not. You always ask good questions. If you keep seeking, you will find Well, how God works in each person's life is subjective to the point that it is based on their personal life experiences and their individual purpose which God has called them too. For example, if I pray for a wife and another man prays for a wife, how that is accomplished could be completely different b/c our lives are different and what God has called us to is different. Lots could be said about prayer from a biblical perspective, but we'll save that lol I have found the outcome of prayer, what we pray for, is for God's glory. The processes we go through as the prayer is answered (trials) is for our growth; to become more like Christ. If we allow God to temper us through the prayer process, it will change the desires of our heart to align with His desires. So, yeah, there's a lot of overlapping themes when discussing prayer. Hard to put in just one post, but if prayer results in God getting glory, that would be the independent verification for me that it was answered Link to post Share on other sites
skydiveaddict Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 If we allow God to temper us through the prayer process, it will change the desires of our heart to align with His desires. That's not true. Many people live their whole lives without seeing even their most basic, good desires fulfilled. Some only seek to do God's will in this life and die never knowing what that was. Link to post Share on other sites
TheFinalWord Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 That's not true. Many people live their whole lives without seeing even their most basic, good desires fulfilled. Some only seek to do God's will in this life and die never knowing what that was. Who are you talking about? Can you be more specific? What is a good desire? Link to post Share on other sites
skydiveaddict Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Who are you talking about? Can you be more specific? What is a good desire? A good (meaning christian) desire, (prayer); might be the parents of an ill child who wish their child to get well, yet the child dies. Or the mother of a starving infant wishing to feed her baby, yet she is unable to and the child dies as well. Your answer for these atrocities seems to be that "if we allow God to temper us through the prayer process, it will change the desires of our heart." As for who I am talking about, it's simple: Christ Himself from the cross: "My God, My God; why have you abandon me?" Link to post Share on other sites
TheFinalWord Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 A good (meaning christian) desire, (prayer); might be the parents of an ill child who wish their child to get well, yet the child dies. Or the mother of a starving infant wishing to feed her baby, yet she is unable to and the child dies as well. Your answer for these atrocities seems to be that "if we allow God to temper us through the prayer process, it will change the desires of our heart." As for who I am talking about, it's simple: Christ Himself from the cross: "My God, My God; why have you abandon me?" Wait, so we went from all of these people dying never knowing God's will to a child dying? You're confusing me. Who are these people that went their entire life without ever having a clue about God's Will for their life? Did you interview someone, or are you just speculating or projecting what you think? We can get to the issues with a child dying, one thing at a time. When Christ said that on the cross, it was because He was taking the punishment (separation from God) for our sins on Himself. Link to post Share on other sites
Hawaii50 Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Wait, so we went from all of these people dying never knowing God's will to a child dying? You're confusing me. Who are these people that went their entire life without ever having a clue about God's Will for their life? Did you interview someone, or are you just speculating or projecting what you think? We can get to the issues with a child dying, one thing at a time. When Christ said that on the cross, it was because He was taking the punishment (separation from God) for our sins on Himself. But! When Frodo put the ring on he turned invisible. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
skydiveaddict Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Wait, so we went from all of these people dying never knowing God's will to a child dying? You asked me what constitutes a "good" desire. I gave you two examples. You're confusing me. Who are these people that went their entire life without ever having a clue about God's Will for their life? Did you interview someone, or are you just speculating or projecting what you think? Right. I went and interviewed every unhappy and miserable person on this planet who died without a purpose in this life. And you're right. They all told me it was God's plan for them to be this way and that I was wrong. . When Christ said that on the cross, it was because He was taking the punishment (separation from God) for our sins on Himself. So then the innocent people suffering on this planet have not been not been abandoned by God? After all, Christ took this punishment unto Himself. Link to post Share on other sites
TheFinalWord Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 But! When Frodo put the ring on he turned invisible. huh? I do love the Hobbits!! Bilbo was my fav 1 Link to post Share on other sites
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