What are "fiery chariots" or "chariots of God" in the Bible?

[M30USA]

What I do know is that your heart is in the right place.

 

And to me, you are doing exactly what this scripture says -

 

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV)

 

Thank you.

 

I try to read the Bible in a way which disregards society's assumptions and beliefs.

[pureinheart]

"For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." (Matthew 7:4, ESV)

 

You know M30, I never understood this scripture because so many say they are Christians, I mean anyone that remotely said they were, I took for granted they were.

 

I'm the last to judge who is and who isn't, although have to say it was a wake up call and it was devastating to apply another scripture that states, 'they honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me' (paraphrase).

 

This was difficult to deal with and understand:(

[pureinheart]

Just to clarify before someone jumps on you, this doesn't mean what GWB did was right--it just means he was possibly used by God. We know from Scripture that God even uses Satan to accomplish his will. God is all sovereign. Yet another reason I'm a Calvinist.

 

Thanks M30. It made perfect sense to me when I learned Iraq was ancient Babylon.

 

There are many parts about Calvinism I agree with, in fact, most of my beginning teachers were Calvinists.

[pureinheart]

Calvinism, in a nutshell, means that God has complete, absolute sovereignty (or control) over all his creation. The reason it's so hard to describe is that it contradicts human logic, and therefore you can't really support it in a debate.

 

Even the idea of free will, according to Calvinism, means that God actually PLACED a desire or want in our heart to begin with. So here we come along, thinking we are making "choices" when, in fact, we are merely acting upon the desire that God placed in our heart. This seems to be clearly understood when it comes to those whom God has chosen. Paul says that God has "predestined" us for salvation. It's a little harder to accept when it comes to those whom God might have predestined for destruction. But the Bible clearly affirms this idea--as mean and unfair as it sounds to human reasoning--in this chapter:

 

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

 

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

(Romans 9:14-24 ESV)

 

I would take this to say that He knew the choices we would make? Did I say that right or make sense?

 

This portion of the second paragragh speaks to me:

 

*Even the idea of free will, according to Calvinism, means that God actually PLACED a desire or want in our heart to begin with. So here we come along, thinking we are making "choices" when, in fact, we are merely acting upon the desire that God placed in our heart.*

 

From the time I can remember there was a "walk" with God. Not just a knowledge, but a knowing. I began having prophetic dreams at the age of 4 or 5. Then even after being into some hardcore "sin" and a radical background, there was still this unusual "innocence", and strangely enouph the radical people I hung out with seemed to be protective over me, not allowing me to be involved with certain things...it's really hard to describe, but that is how it was.

 

Then got "saved" and it was being saved because there was a big heart difference.

[M30USA]

Pureinheart,

 

I'm glad you can at least agree with certain parts of Calvinism. The Bible actually does contradict itself on this subject--from a human logic standpoint. There are numerous verses which support Calvinism (predestination) 100%, yet there are also numerous verses which seem to support Arminianism (free will) 100%. You can make a strong case for either position. However, all we can do is trust that "God's logic" is higher than our logic and that, in the wash, it's really not a contradiction and both are kind of operating together.

 

I actually just thought of a line from Forrest Gump. It's nearing the end of the movie, after his mom and Jenny have both died, and he's reflecting upon his life while talking to Jenny at her grave. He is wondering if Lieutenant Dan was right when he said that "everyone has a destiny" or if his mom was right when she said that life is just about doing the best with what you're given. He said: "Jenny, I don't know if Momma was right or if, if it's Lieutenant Dan. I don't know if we each have a destiny, or if we're all just floating around accidental--like on a breeze, but I, I think maybe it's both. Maybe both is happening at the same time."

 

Try saying the following 2 statements to yourself to get an idea of what the reality is. Your brain will probably start to bug out:

 

1) God has total control over our salvation.

2) We have total control over our salvation.

Edited October 16, 2012 by M30USA

[pie2]

Really good question!

 

Are you familiar with TULIP?

 

I was originally going to guess that TULIP was another poster on LS (perhaps a Calvinist?).

 

But I don't think that's right!

[pie2]

You can make a strong case for either position. However, all we can do is trust that "God's logic" is higher than our logic and that, in the wash, it's really not a contradiction and both are kind of operating together.

 

Yes.

 

Calvinism, in a nutshell, means that God has complete, absolute sovereignty (or control) over all his creation. The reason it's so hard to describe is that it contradicts human logic, and therefore you can't really support it in a debate.

 

Oh yes, it's a total trip!

 

Maybe free will is more of a fluid idea, not so black and white (i.e. we have no free will). Maybe it just changes depending on the situation.

 

Like, maybe God realizes that some people have a greater need to "be in control" and have the ability to choose their own destinies. Maybe for those people, free will, and choosing God, is an act of honor and dedication, as they are not being caged in like an animal.

 

And maybe free will isn't such a big deal to some other people. Some people might just naturally be able to accept that God is in control of their lives, and they feel comfortable accepting their lot in life (whatever that may be). Maybe God tests these individuals in a different way, in order to know their hearts.

[TheFinalWord]

Pureinheart,

 

I'm glad you can at least agree with certain parts of Calvinism. The Bible actually does contradict itself on this subject--from a human logic standpoint. There are numerous verses which support Calvinism (predestination) 100%, yet there are also numerous verses which seem to support Arminianism (free will) 100%. You can make a strong case for either position. However, all we can do is trust that "God's logic" is higher than our logic and that, in the wash, it's really not a contradiction and both are kind of operating together.

 

I actually just thought of a line from Forrest Gump. It's nearing the end of the movie, after his mom and Jenny have both died, and he's reflecting upon his life while talking to Jenny at her grave. He is wondering if Lieutenant Dan was right when he said that "everyone has a destiny" or if his mom was right when she said that life is just about doing the best with what you're given. He said: "Jenny, I don't know if Momma was right or if, if it's Lieutenant Dan. I don't know if we each have a destiny, or if we're all just floating around accidental--like on a breeze, but I, I think maybe it's both. Maybe both is happening at the same time."

 

Try saying the following 2 statements to yourself to get an idea of what the reality is. Your brain will probably start to bug out:

 

1) God has total control over our salvation.

2) We have total control over our salvation.

 

Another option you might research Molinism

 

What is Molinism and is it biblical?

 

Craig supports middle-knowledge view:

 

[mercy]

I was originally going to guess that TULIP was another poster on LS (perhaps a Calvinist?).

 

But I don't think that's right!

 

 

You're so cute!

 

Calvin's TULIP

[M30USA]

Another option you might research Molinism

 

What is Molinism and is it biblical?

 

Craig supports middle-knowledge view:

 

 

I checked out the first link. Sounds like modern day "parallel universe" theories. I've considered this idea.

 

Another idea is that we have what is called "limited free will". Dr Charles Stanley supports this idea. It means we have certain completely free choices, but within a predetermined area and degree by God. This is a great theory because it not only reconciles free will and predestination, but it also explains why the Bible seems to hint that certain people have more say over certain decisions than others. For example, it seems that some people are virtually forced into salvation (such as Paul on road to Damascus), while other people are allowed to make the decision on their own or never do.

[TheFinalWord]

I checked out the first link. Sounds like modern day "parallel universe" theories. I've considered this idea.

 

Another idea is that we have what is called "limited free will". Dr Charles Stanley supports this idea. It means we have certain completely free choices, but within a predetermined area and degree by God. This is a great theory because it not only reconciles free will and predestination, but it also explains why the Bible seems to hint that certain people have more say over certain decisions than others. For example, it seems that some people are virtually forced into salvation (such as Paul on road to Damascus), while other people are allowed to make the decision on their own or never do.

 

Yeah, it's focused on the concept of middle knowledge. William Lane Craig, Norman Geisler, Ravi Zacharias, Charles Stanley, Bill Bright and Josh McDowell I would consider Molinists. Thought I believe Craig is the only one who outright affirms it and defends it in his writings.

 

There's offshoots of it too:

 

Compatibilist middle knowledge - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity

 

Interesting to read about, but it will drive you insane unless you really like philosophy

[pie2]

Calvin's TULIP

 

I'm a dork!

 

TULIP is very useful...thanks

 

I am learning so much about the bible on Loveshack! Who would have known?!

 

For example, total depravity...that idea has only been around for 500 years? What?!

 

Another idea is that we have what is called "limited free will". Dr Charles Stanley supports this idea. It means we have certain completely free choices, but within a predetermined area and degree by God. This is a great theory because it not only reconciles free will and predestination, but it also explains why the Bible seems to hint that certain people have more say over certain decisions than others. For example, it seems that some people are virtually forced into salvation (such as Paul on road to Damascus), while other people are allowed to make the decision on their own or never do.

 

Yes, that is so true (the Paul conversion example)! I completely agree that God seems to call people in many different ways

[M30USA]

When Jesus was betrayed by Judas, he referred to Judas as "Satan". On the flipside, when Peter came to Jesus' defense and tried to PREVENT his death, Jesus also called HIM "Satan".

 

Think about that. Two disciples BOTH called "Satan" for doing the exact opposite things: helping Jesus, and betraying Jesus.

 

What does this imply? That Gods will (at least in this case) had to be done in such an exact manner and timing. Jesus wasn't calling them "Satan" for trying to prevent it or make it happen--but rather for interfering in Gods will and trying to alter the manner and timing by which it happened.

[mercy]

When Jesus was betrayed by Judas, he referred to Judas as "Satan". On the flipside, when Peter came to Jesus' defense and tried to PREVENT his death, Jesus also called HIM "Satan".

 

Think about that. Two disciples BOTH called "Satan" for doing the exact opposite things: helping Jesus, and betraying Jesus.

 

What does this imply? That Gods will (at least in this case) had to be done in such an exact manner and timing. Jesus wasn't calling them "Satan" for trying to prevent it or make it happen--but rather for interfering in Gods will and trying to alter the manner and timing by which it happened.

 

I use that scripture when people tempt me with candy.

 

Get thee behind me, Satan: (Matthew 16:23)

[M30USA]

Getting back to subject...

 

I want to share a link to an interview by BBC of Gary McKinnon. He was caught in what has been considered the biggest computer hack of US defense history. He is currently facing 60 years in prison and, though a UK citizen, the US wants to have him trialed here. This case is currently pending.

 

But here's why I bring it up. If you watch the video he says the reason he hacked US defense computers was to find proof of UFOs and UFO reversed technology. And he even claims he discovered proof of UFOs by NASA photographs.

 

What gets me is that, with all the garbage and senseless news in America, nobody even HEARD about this except in UK.