Inappropriate?

[Janesays]

For me, it has always been completely natural to meet my friends families - as I said with young children, this is about the only way you can spend time outside of work, is to spend it with them and their families. Aslo, being friends, they wanted me to meet their wives and children. How can one maintain a 10+ year friendship and not have this happen? Not want this to happen? When I have a good friend, I really care about them and care about the most important connections in their life.

 

Nail on head right here. I have plenty of married male friends. But I'm ALSO good friends with their wives. If I invite the man somewhere, it's a flipping given that I expect his wife to be there as well, if not his kids. I attended his wedding. (PS: You mean to tell me these 10+ friendships with these men didn't get you even an INVITE TO THE WEDDING? Doesn't that strike you as.....strange? If you were a good friend since high school and it was completely platonic like you claim, how come you didn't at least meet the wife at the wedding?) I attend their children's birthday parties. We go on couples vacations together.

 

I don't date them. Nope, never. I am their FRIEND and I wouldn't even be brazen enough to ask. That's just....wildly, wildly inappropriate.

[Driver12]

Standtall - I'm getting defensive in terms of things that aren't in direct relation to the OP and my other friendships. It IS offensive to suggest that I'm not genuinely friends - by using the inverted commas around the word - with men i've known 10+ years, without issue.

 

As I've already said, I don't mind people disagreeing with what I think, as you said, it's why I started the thread. It's the insistence that Janesays IS right in the absolute that I take umbridge over. It's a discussion, she can be a scienctist and 'deal in fact' all she wants, but clearly by the other posts, these things are all subjective.

 

And just to issue a fact, from the online dictionary, a date is:

a. An engagement to go out socially with another person

b. One's companion on such an outing

c. An engagement for a performance

[standtall]

Standtall - no way can anyone day that this, from Janesays, isn't disrespectful:

 

' I'd also be interested to see if you managed to get married yourself, without changing your behavior, or if you stay the single girl who dates her married chums from 9th grade biology. '

 

Well driver12..in the interest of sounding balanced, I agree, that was an unnecessary dig and not a good way to get you to see your situations from a married woman's point of view, which is what I think jane is trying to do. With that in mind, I think that it is safe to say that from a married person's point of view, the scenario that you described, no matter what your intent, is seen as a "date" and a pursuit of someone who does not belong to you.

[Driver12]

Janesays - what are you even reading? Where on earth did I say I hadn't met their wives/families or didn't go to their wedding? I didn't. I said that their wives are not my friends also, that doesn't mean I haven't met them

[Driver12]

Standtall - Fair enough, I don't mind you stating your differing opinion at all, and if that's how you see it, fine. You do appreciate that even if that's how it comes across, that was not my intention?

[Janesays]

Janesays - what are you even reading? Where on earth did I say I hadn't met their wives/families or didn't go to their wedding? I didn't. I said that their wives are not my friends also, that doesn't mean I haven't met them

 

On page 2 or 3, when someone suggested you ask his wife how she feels about it, you said, loosely paraphrased, "I haven't met his wife so that seems like a weird thing to do."

 

After 3 years of knowing someone, if you haven't met their wife, you aren't as good friends as you think you are.

 

Further, if you're not friends with the wives of your other married men friends, then I have to wonder....why not? Are you not spending any time AT ALL with these women? In that case, either they are not inviting you on outings where their wife is in attendance (Why not?) or they are inviting you and you are not attending. (Again, why not?)

 

My very best friend is a man. We've known either other since 5th grade. Of course I know his wife. Of course we're friends. How could I possibly not be....after meeting her children, attending multiple parties at her house, going on outings with her and my friend. If my friend kept me out of that part of his life, I'd assume he had shady intentions with me. Further, if I avoided being part of his life in that way, I'd have to take a good long hard look at MYSELF and why I am so reluctant to become close to his wife?

[standtall]

Standtall - You do appreciate that even if that's how it comes across, that was not my intention?

 

Of course, you have made that very plain, and I don't think that most posters here are trying to judge you or make you out to be the bad guy here.....but...we judge ourselves by our intentions, we judge others by their actions. If you were in the wife's shoes, take a look...she doesn't know your intentions because she doesn't know you...do you see where this is going?

[woinlove]

Janesays - what are you even reading? Where on earth did I say I hadn't met their wives/families or didn't go to their wedding? I didn't. I said that their wives are not my friends also, that doesn't mean I haven't met them

 

Driver, I got that impression when you said:

 

I have other male friends that I go out with alone and their wives/girlfriends don't care (and don't know me either), so it's the first time it's come up for me

 

I have tried to ask questions to determine whether you have friendships under similar situations, and your answers have always implied yes - that is they are married, they have children, they hire babysitters or have their wives at home with the children while on an evening out with you, you haven't met their wives, some of these friendships have lasted a long time, and they have stayed married, maybe they are involved parents

 

Not clear they are involved parents from anything you have posted - and maybe that is the key, some fathers really are not involved parents and basically leave the parenting to their wives - a sad situation IMO, although I don't know if that is the case for your friends or not, just you haven't mentioned it and I'm trying to figure out where the time is coming from for you alone-together time away from their children and wives and why it is that the wives don't know you.

[todreaminblue]

Thanks for your replies

 

JAP - The female friends aren't work people, they are 'outside' friends, but fair enough on the difference between coffee and an evening thing.

 

Standtall - I don't think I'd be that bothered by it, when I was with my ex he had female friends and they'd go on nights out together and I wasn't phased. I have other male friends that I go out with alone and their wives/girlfriends don't care (and don't know me either), so it's the first time it's come up for me

 

 

when i am in a relationship i dont go out at night with other guys the only time i did was in an open relationship where my ex at the time was doing the same thing.....it is a situation that should be avoided and if the wives dont care as you put it......thats an issue....i am not a jealous person but it would make me worry...nights in a committed relationship should be spent together and if not .together...not with members of the opposite sex out on the town.........even if your intentions are innocent things will happen.....eventually...just a matter of time before an awkward moment comes into play..or a situation that could have been avoided becomes unavoidable...deb.....

[Eve]

Well, I am truly shocked by the responses here. Men and women can be friends without owt happening.

 

I suppose the ladies here aren't taking any chances, at all, lol.

 

I have asked family members what they think to this discussion and they all think the same as what I have proposed. Shared interests are just that. If anything is getting a bit fruity then it is for the spouse to back off but with some people that just is not on the agenda. If there is sexual tension or something, don't go if you value your marriage - but really that is so obvious it is patronising.

 

Gosh, marriage isn't a trap! Then again, I don't feel threatened by other women.

 

My Husband would not propose anything outlandish but occassionally he will go out with others without me and there will be other women present. He has also taken an old friend to lunch. He asked me if I wanted to come but I declined because she is HIS friend.

 

I don't get how a meeting as proposed by the OP of three potential people going out can be deemed a date?

 

Take care,

Eve x

[woinlove]

Well, I am truly shocked by the responses here. Men and women can be friends without owt happening.

 

I suppose the ladies here aren't taking any chances, at all, lol.

 

I have asked family members what they think to this discussion and they all think the same as what I have proposed. Shared interests are just that. If anything is getting a bit fruity then it is for the spouse to back off but with some people that just is not on the agenda. If there is sexual tension or something, don't go if you value your marriage - but really that is so obvious it is patronising.

 

Gosh, marriage isn't a trap! Then again, I don't feel threatened by other women.

 

My Husband would not propose anything outlandish but occassionally he will go out with others without me and there will be other women present. He has also taken an old friend to lunch. He asked me if I wanted to come but I declined because she is HIS friend.

 

I don't get how a meeting as proposed by the OP of three potential people going out can be deemed a date?

 

Take care,

Eve x

 

I'm a lot more puzzled by the evenings out alone with men with young children who need their wives to stay home with the children or to hire a babysitter and have this going on for years without ever meeting the wife. Both my H and I have friends of the opposite sex, but our time was noticeably curtailed with young children, and we have met each other's good friends. Just wondering how it works as I know how much juggling young children and full-time work takes. Do you have some insight into this?

[Betrayed&Stayed]

Wow. I really would hate to be that cynical. Also, my friends are all grown ups so they could say they didn't fancy doing something without 'blaming' their wife or whoever, if someone doesn't want to do something, they say no. No problem, no big deal. Also, my friend didn't make up an excuse, again, read my posts more carefully.

 

For the last time - I asked, he responded, end of - I DON'T WANT TO DATE HIM OR ANY OTHER ALREADY MARRIED MAN.

 

I'll chime in.

 

It is a date! Two people engaging in a social setting without a third person. Look at it this way: If he was single, would it be a date? Would most people see it as a date?

 

Do not make the mistake of relying on the fact that he's married is going to be a protective barrier in your relationship. Subscribing to "Nothing is going to happen; he's married" is not a good idea. Too many couples have been burned by this.

 

It is very easy to go from "just friends" to "not just friends".

 

Some posters recommended meeting the wife. That's nice and may be helpful, but it's no guarantee. Many APs know the BS. That doesn't stop an affair from developing.

 

A common denominator in most affairs is a lack of appropriate boundaries. This is something that is usually learned a little later in life, and usually after being married for awhile. I wouldn't expect someone in their 20's to fully grasp the importance of boundaries.

[AnotherRound]

This whole thread is crazy interesting! I mean, where are all of these people that think that two friends doing something together is a "date"?

 

Here's my question - if the OP wasn't a woman, would it cease to be an issue? If so, then some people obviously believe that opposite genders can't have friendships. Or, that they will not be able to control their animal urges and will end up having an affair right there in the theatre! What? lol

 

Or, what if the OP wasn't a single woman? Would it be doubly wrong?

 

And what does it matter if it's in the "evening"? Are there extra phermones in the air at night or something? lol

 

I don't get it. If you have a spouse or a SO and you can't trust them to go out and enjoy friendships with other men/women - why? What are you afraid of? That they won't be able to control themselves? And if so, why on earth would you be in a relationship with someone like that? I mean, they come into contact with the opposite gender, every single day outside of your watchful eye - how do you know that they aren't sexing it up with everyone that they see when you aren't there to "control" them? How do you live like that? It sounds exhausting and miserable!

 

And, if some just think it's improper - that's okay I guess, but I tend to think that labeling it improper is simply a way to cover for "I'm insecure about it/don't trust my mate/truly believe that my mate cannot control themselves around the opposite gender". ?????

 

As I said before, my exH was "allowed" to do whatever he pleased. I didn't try to keep him on a "short leash" as others suggested I do. And, when he cheated, others said, "I told you so! You let him have too much freedom!". My thoughts? Um, if he had to be controlled to be faithful, I didn't want him anyways! I mean, I don't want to have to exert all of my energy, or even some, on trying to make sure that my mate isn't out jacking around. In fact, not only do I not want to - I flat out won't. If someone is going to cheat on you, they WILL find a way - and I'm not sure that you hovering over them all the time isn't going to help it happen sooner rather than later

 

Men and women can be friends without sexual tension. I have many male friends, single and taken, who I spend time with just us, bc we simply enjoy each other's company. Not an iota of sexual tension is present with any of them - if it was, I would have dated them when they were single! Most I've known for years, and feel very comfortable hanging out at my house in our pajamas and watching a movie together - in fact, just did this the other night with a male friend. And guess what? Not a single thing happened. We watched the movie, talked about our lives for a bit, and he got up and went home, and I went to bed.

 

I don't know where all these people are that are just ripping off their clothes and sexing it up simply bc they have someone of the opposite gender within reach. ? Or, why it matters if it is dark outside or light outside. ???? (that one really confuses me). And I'm SO glad that I don't have to sit around worrying about that kind of thing, or browbeating my SO into not having any friends bc I have an issue with it (whatever that issue may be). And truth be told, I would NEVER even consider dating someone who wanted to control me, and/or choose my friendships, or tell me what I can and cannot participate in. Ew and ugh. (not aimed at anyone here, just imagining it and it honestly sounds lonely and miserable)

[Decorative]

I was super duper a-okay with my spouse hanging out with opposite sex friends. Never blinked. He would never, right? Not a chance.

 

Until he did.

 

It has nothing to do with my insecurities, or jealousy, or confidence in him. It is all about boundaries and making emotional connections. Those erase the boundaries slowly, and there are little steps along the way that make it okay inside the head of the person who chooses to cheat.

 

There are a millions of beautiful, wonderful, amazing and talented spouses who are cheated on. Cheating has nothing to do with the betrayed spouse's attitude or insecurities. It's about the cheater's choices.

 

That being said- I have a few male friends. I do not have any conversations with them that are private, or that my spouse couldn't be standing there the entire time. No inside jokes, nothing surreptitious or hidden. I know their wives, and befriend them. I don't go out alone with them- ever. I never put myself in a position for any erosion of my boundaries to occur.

[eleanorrigby]

I don't know where all these people are that are just ripping off their clothes and sexing it up simply bc they have someone of the opposite gender within reach. ? Or, why it matters if it is dark outside or light outside. ???? (that one really confuses me). And I'm SO glad that I don't have to sit around worrying about that kind of thing, or browbeating my SO into not having any friends bc I have an issue with it (whatever that issue may be). And truth be told, I would NEVER even consider dating someone who wanted to control me, and/or choose my friendships, or tell me what I can and cannot participate in. Ew and ugh. (not aimed at anyone here, just imagining it and it honestly sounds lonely and miserable)

 

You and I had this conversation before in another thread. I said before it's not that two opposite sex people are going to be in a room together for 10 minutes then suddenly start bumping uglies.

 

It's a process, like decorative just said. It happens over time, a gradual tearing down of the boundaries as the wayward tells him or herself- It's OK.. this is innocent. We are just friends.

 

When I caught my husband the first thing he told me about the OW was "she's just a friend!!"

 

And why do you conclude that people are being browbeaten?

[angie2443]

You and I had this conversation before in another thread. I said before it's not that two opposite sex people are going to be in a room together for 10 minutes then suddenly start bumping uglies.

 

It's a process, like decorative just said. It happens over time, a gradual tearing down of the boundaries as the wayward tells him or herself- It's OK.. this is innocent. We are just friends.

 

When I caught my husband the first thing he told me about the OW was "she's just a friend!!"

 

And why do you conclude that people are being browbeaten?

 

 

This isn't that complicated. I think, though, that some people want what they want (in this case to be able to hang out with whoever they please) and don't want to own up to the consequences. It's hard for me to believe that certain posters here really think that the ones who consider this situation inappropriate, just don't trust their partners or are insecure. Maybe they just value personal freedom over protecting a marriage.

[woinlove]

I think different married people will have different views about opposite-sex friends, and I don't find that surprising. I think whatever works for the couple and makes them happy and is treating everyone with respect is perfectly fine.

 

It is interesting that some people involved in affairs with married partners argue the strongest for opposite-sex married friends that are not friends of the spouse too, but perhaps that is to be expected.

 

Having BTDT with married, jobs, young children, what I still don't understand is how it works when a woman spends evenings out alone with a married man with young children who needs his wive to stay home with the children or to hire a babysitter and have this going on for years without ever meeting the wife. Has anyone behaved this way and had their marriage survive over the decades? Anyone? And what is the reason for going years and not meeting the wife? My H and I like each other to meet people who are important in our lives. That kind of sharing comes naturally to us.

 

I suppose some people have quite disconnected marriages, but do these survive and are they happy?

 

I'm trying to understand this point about working, married parents and friends because it seems this experience of the OP's is what fixes her own perspective on this invitation.

[2sunny]

It's HIS marriage and an agreement he made with his wife - so IF you intend to spend time with him - simply ask his wife for permission!

 

IF she's not ok with it - respect her position.

 

If she's ok with it - then you're good to go as far as being FRIENDS with him - that INCLUDES never crossing that boundary of discussing anything that his wife wouldn't feel comfortable hearing. Never DOING anything with him she wouldn't be comfortable watching!

[AnotherRound]

You and I had this conversation before in another thread. I said before it's not that two opposite sex people are going to be in a room together for 10 minutes then suddenly start bumping uglies.

 

It's a process, like decorative just said. It happens over time, a gradual tearing down of the boundaries as the wayward tells him or herself- It's OK.. this is innocent. We are just friends.

 

When I caught my husband the first thing he told me about the OW was "she's just a friend!!"

 

And why do you conclude that people are being browbeaten?

 

I don't assume that all people are being browbeaten - I assume that some are bc of the nature of the posts here. If someone wants to have outside friendships and isn't "allowed" to, that's a problem imo. If someone doesn't want to, then there's no problem. Personally, I don't think that's healthy - but to each his own. I would not be involved in a relationship with that level of what I perceive to be control - it's not healthy, imo (and can even be abusive, depending on what the partner wants - if they aren't being allowed to be their authentic self). I don't participate in those types of relationships - and would rather someone who is going to cheat on me do it of their own accord and not under some false veil of security I've developed by keeping them on a short leash. (This is from my own experiences with other married couples and my own marriage - not insinuating anything about you or anyone here as I don't know you).

 

I agree with Angie - it is important to be with someone that has the same beliefs regarding this as you do. If two people don't match up on this, one partner is inevitably going to be browbeaten into not having relationships outside of the marriage that they want and cherish. That is imbalance, and imo, is going to lead to nothing but resentment (which I avoid at ALL costs bc I've seen it tear down far too many relationships). You have to let people be who they are - and then decide if you want to be with them or not. Not force them to be who you want/need them to be - bc they can't and won't keep that up for the long term, it's nearly impossible.

 

I find it confusing that some people are still under the impression that they can stop cheating or affairs by placing "strong boundaries". To me, that is simply not true. You can't control another human being, no matter how "strong" you think the boundaries you've placed on them are. They are free agents and WILL do what they want/need to do - maybe even more so if they are feeling shackled and controlled. I don't pretend to have control over things I can't control - So, we are back to the two different views of the world. In my world - I control what I can, accept what I cannot and react appropriately. In other people's world - they feel that they can control things that are obviously not under their control (the behaviors of another human being) by placing restrictions on them.

 

Again, to each his own. And if two people are willing to be in a relationship where they place restrictions on the other - more power to them. I prefer a relationship where both people are there because they WANT and CHOOSE to be, and they choose their own restrictions. If that is the case, then no problem - but when one partner is being forced by another to do things, or not do things, against their will - I see nothing but trouble on the horizon. (again, if both agree, then it's fine - it's just not a relationship that I would want to be in, therefore, I find people who match up with me so that we don't have this issue).

[Decorative]

AR-

 

Nobody is browbeating anyone into anything.

 

Please stop creating strawmen and knocking them down. It makes it hard to keep the conversation fluid, when points are brought in that aren't occurring.

[Decorative]

 

.

 

I find it confusing that some people are still under the impression that they can stop cheating or affairs by placing "strong boundaries". To me, that is simply not true. You can't control another human being, no matter how "strong" you think the boundaries you've placed on them are. They are free agents and WILL do what they want/need to do - maybe even more so if they are feeling shackled and controlled. I don't pretend to have control over things I can't control - So, we are back to the two different views of the world. In my world - I control what I can, accept what I cannot and react appropriately. In other people's world - they feel that they can control things that are obviously not under their control (the behaviors of another human being) by placing restrictions on them.

 

).

 

 

Each partner needs to respect their own boundaries. It isn't about controlling another person, or your spouse. It's about being aware that slippery slopes exist and protecting yourself from behaving badly. People without boundaries, or who think " it could never happen to me" often end up, head in hands later, saying " why did I do this?".

 

As a mental health professional, you should read up on Glass. It might prove helpful to you on understanding what people are stating by boundaries, and how no one is either browbeating or trying to coerce their spouse into behavior against their will.

 

Dr. Shirley Glass - About the Book - NOT "Just Friends"

[AnotherRound]

This isn't that complicated. I think, though, that some people want what they want (in this case to be able to hang out with whoever they please) and don't want to own up to the consequences. It's hard for me to believe that certain posters here really think that the ones who consider this situation inappropriate, just don't trust their partners or are insecure. Maybe they just value personal freedom over protecting a marriage.

 

I would agree that I value personal freedom over a marriage. Imo, if a marriage stifles personal freedom - then it's not a healthy relationship and isn't allowing each partner to be there of their own free will. They are following guidelines that go against what is healthy for them to be the best person that they can be.

 

Imo, if someone wants to sleep with other people - then they shouldn't be in a marriage or a committed and monogamous relationship. If the ONLY reason they are monogamous is bc they are in a committed relationship - that to me is forced, and I would rather not be involved.

 

I don't have sex with people just bc I'm attracted to them. I can control that. If I choose to not have sex with someone, it is completely of my own accord - not because someone is forcing me to, or I have a certificate that says I shouldn't. If I want to have sex with others while in a relationship, then that relationship probably isn't for me. I find that when I'm in a relationship with someone, I have no desire to have sex with other people. Yes, of course, there is sometimes an attraction - but I don't need a certificate to keep me loyal - I'm loyal bc I'm in love and want only to be with the person that I love. If that wasn't the case, I probably shouldn't be in that relationship.

 

I don't think that everyone who doesn't want their partner to have outside relationships is insecure or untrusting, but some obviously are. My 70 year old friends are like that, they think it's improper - but they are from a time when there were MUCH more rigid societal rules about mixed sex company. I am not from that time, and I don't see it as a problem. If my SO has a friend that he wants to have sex with, and can't control himself - then I would "set him free" to be with who he wants. I wouldn't expect him to stay with me out of obligation or bc we had an agreement before - obviously at that point, the agreement is null and void bc he isn't invested in it any longer. I would "allow" him to walk away, no hard feelings - it happens. It would hurt, of course, especially if I was still in love with him. But, I want freely given love, not forced obligation and loyalty. If I don't have that, then I have nothing, imo.

 

And yes, people should be able to hang out with whomever they please - in a relationship or not. We are human, we seek common people, and groups - it's our nature. I am not going to deny myself outside friendships simply bc I'm intimately involved with a man, nor would I expect him to. And, if you wouldn't feel the same about him going out with a single male as you do him going out with a single female - I think it's insecurity bc you aren't threatened by friendships - you are threatened by FEMALE friendships. That is the tricky part I think. That's the revelation of what is causing the issue with it - simply the gender of the friend. That's an issue, and will need to be addressed, or I foresee problems.

 

I have many male friends, and we spend time together without their SOs - nobody has a problem with it. Why would they? We are JUST FRIENDS, and it's obvious and evident. There is no threat to my primary relationship, bc if there was, I wouldn't be involved, my choice - not my partner's choice. But a choice I make bc I am invested and loyal. I CHOOSE to be invested and loyal - I am not forced to be. Anything less to me is like making someone say that they like your shirt or your hair - forced, not true, not authentic, and not worth my time. I want REAL feelings, real loyalty - not pretend or forced or obligated. And that can only happen with true freedom to make other choices - not in a void where there are not "options", imo.

[woinlove]

I don't assume that all people are being browbeaten - I assume that some are bc of the nature of the posts here. If someone wants to have outside friendships and isn't "allowed" to, that's a problem imo. .

 

Who is being browbeaten - perhaps you should report the offending posts if you are not simply using such overblown language to refer to a discussion with varying opinions.

 

Second, as to being "allowed". :laugh: We are talking about adults, right? Let's assumed we are not talking about someone in prison or confined against their will. Everyone is responsible for their own choices.

[Decorative]

I would agree that I value personal freedom over a marriage. Imo, if a marriage stifles personal freedom - then it's not a healthy relationship and isn't allowing each partner to be there of their own free will. They are following guidelines that go against what is healthy for them to be the best person that they can be.

 

Imo, if someone wants to sleep with other people - then they shouldn't be in a marriage or a committed and monogamous relationship. If the ONLY reason they are monogamous is bc they are in a committed relationship - that to me is forced, and I would rather not be involved.

 

I don't have sex with people just bc I'm attracted to them. I can control that. If I choose to not have sex with someone, it is completely of my own accord - not because someone is forcing me to, or I have a certificate that says I shouldn't. If I want to have sex with others while in a relationship, then that relationship probably isn't for me. I find that when I'm in a relationship with someone, I have no desire to have sex with other people. Yes, of course, there is sometimes an attraction - but I don't need a certificate to keep me loyal - I'm loyal bc I'm in love and want only to be with the person that I love. If that wasn't the case, I probably shouldn't be in that relationship.

 

I don't think that everyone who doesn't want their partner to have outside relationships is insecure or untrusting, but some obviously are. My 70 year old friends are like that, they think it's improper - but they are from a time when there were MUCH more rigid societal rules about mixed sex company. I am not from that time, and I don't see it as a problem. If my SO has a friend that he wants to have sex with, and can't control himself - then I would "set him free" to be with who he wants. I wouldn't expect him to stay with me out of obligation or bc we had an agreement before - obviously at that point, the agreement is null and void bc he isn't invested in it any longer. I would "allow" him to walk away, no hard feelings - it happens. It would hurt, of course, especially if I was still in love with him. But, I want freely given love, not forced obligation and loyalty. If I don't have that, then I have nothing, imo.

 

And yes, people should be able to hang out with whomever they please - in a relationship or not. We are human, we seek common people, and groups - it's our nature. I am not going to deny myself outside friendships simply bc I'm intimately involved with a man, nor would I expect him to. And, if you wouldn't feel the same about him going out with a single male as you do him going out with a single female - I think it's insecurity bc you aren't threatened by friendships - you are threatened by FEMALE friendships. That is the tricky part I think. That's the revelation of what is causing the issue with it - simply the gender of the friend. That's an issue, and will need to be addressed, or I foresee problems.

 

I have many male friends, and we spend time together without their SOs - nobody has a problem with it. Why would they? We are JUST FRIENDS, and it's obvious and evident. There is no threat to my primary relationship, bc if there was, I wouldn't be involved, my choice - not my partner's choice. But a choice I make bc I am invested and loyal. I CHOOSE to be invested and loyal - I am not forced to be. Anything less to me is like making someone say that they like your shirt or your hair - forced, not true, not authentic, and not worth my time. I want REAL feelings, real loyalty - not pretend or forced or obligated. And that can only happen with true freedom to make other choices - not in a void where there are not "options", imo.

 

You are the longterm OW in someone else's marriage. Of course you value personal freedom over marital ties.

 

And again- stop assuming that all spouses "force" their partners to have boundaries. You have been told repeatedly that isn't so, so I am not sure why you keep writing of it.

[eleanorrigby]

 

Men and women can be friends without sexual tension. I have many male friends, single and taken, who I spend time with just us, bc we simply enjoy each other's company. Not an iota of sexual tension is present with any of them - if it was, I would have dated them when they were single! Most I've known for years, and feel very comfortable hanging out at my house in our pajamas and watching a movie together - in fact, just did this the other night with a male friend. And guess what? Not a single thing happened. We watched the movie, talked about our lives for a bit, and he got up and went home, and I went to bed.

 

 

Nothing inappropriate here. Everyone move along.....Nothing to see...

come on AR!

Call me insecure if you like, but if these male friends of yours are married, or in a relationship, that's just not cool.