Questions on God: Free Will VS Dogma

[YellowLioness]

Ringo's post really got me thinking:

T

o all of you who are religious, or at least knowlegable: how do you reconcile dogma and free will?

 

Ok... I am going to postulate:

 

1. God creates man and allows us to have "Free Will."

2. Man is wild and feral with out laws to govern.

3. God gives 10 commandments to Moses to govern men, saying that our wickedness displeases him.

4. God has a plan for everyone's life.

 

 

These being stated, if someone, of their own, God-given free will kills me, is that God's plan for my life?

 

How can God's plan include sin if he is a perfect being?

 

Does God use sin to accomplish his means, even though our sin displeases him?

 

Are there any scriptures that deal with this?

[Fayebelle]

These being stated, if someone, of their own, God-given free will kills me, is that God's plan for my life?

 

How can God's plan include sin if he is a perfect being?

 

Does God use sin to accomplish his means, even though our sin displeases him?

 

Are there any scriptures that deal with this?

 

 

 

 

1- I think yes

 

2- I think God has perfect INTENTIONS- but HE has admitted to feeling remorse for his actions (i.e. The great flood)

 

3- This is where free will comes into play- We sin- God reacts accordingly

 

4- Ask Dyer - He's waaaay better at quoting scripture than I am- I read the Bible for ideas and guidance but have trouble memorizing verbatum

[moimeme]

Remember, if you're dead, you're with God. So if you get killed or die young, maybe God wants you 'home' sooner rather than later.

[YellowLioness]

So, if God can show remorse, does that mean that he admits that he is not perfect?

 

2- I think God has perfect INTENTIONS- but HE has admitted to feeling remorse for his actions (i.e. The great flood)

 

 

Ya know, I've actually thought that for a long time. It all goes back to whether we choose our destinies our they are chosen for us.

 

Its like... If God KNOWS that we must die at this appointed hour on a certain day, does he choose how we die, or do we choose it?

[HokeyReligions]

Originally posted by YellowLioness

How can God's plan include sin if he is a perfect being?

 

GOD is [supposedly] perfect. HUMANS are NOT.

 

I asked similar questions of several Christian ministers. They quoted different parts of the Bible and with different interpretations, but they basically boiled it down to;

 

God's plan encompasses the big picture more than the day-to-day occurrences. For example: His plan is for a person to struggle and be tested time and time again, and to give that person snippets of hope for salvation so that the person can choose God. He uses other people (those who follow satan or agnostics like me) to provide the tests of faith with their crimes against humans--that they choose with their free will.

 

The whole book of Job is like a bet between God and Satan that God can throw all kinds of crap at Job and he will still believe and worship God. Satans followers used their free will (or Satan's guidance) to choose what to do, but it was God that was still guiding them into Job's path.

[ringo]

if God has a plan for all of us.... then was/is it his plan when children are abused, raped, murdered.... etc. That would also go into the subject of cancer and other diseases..... are these God's plans?

 

When my husband and I tried for many months to concieve a child.... surgeries later we did... then lost the baby... was that God's plan?

Then when my husband had a one night stand and concieved a child with the OW.... was that God's plan?

What about war?

What about the homeless and starving?

So many questions.....????

[Fayebelle]

I know that is hard on the people who suffer (and we all do at some point) but it is true.

 

Everything is for a reason- someone on here has a signature that says something like "it may be harsh but what if your whole purpose is to be an example of what not to do"

 

Sometimes these catastrophies are a lesson to others.

 

 

Plus Cancer, AIDS, etc...are horrible- but how many people make a living b/c of them. Take all the diseases out of the world- how would doc, nurses, researchers, the hospital receptionest, cafeteria staff etc...support their families.

[YellowLioness]

That's what I was trying to get at, really. Those hard questions.

 

Faye has a post up where this homeless guy was beaten to death by a bunch of kids because they were "bored."

 

Where is God in that?

 

When my boyfriend was molested at age 6, and again at 8, where was God?

 

I can't answer that question, and I won't even try.

 

The closest thing that I can come up with is SORT of what Hokey said,

 

 

quote]God's plan encompasses the big picture more than the day-to-day occurrences. For example: His plan is for a person to struggle and be tested time and time again, and to give that person snippets of hope for salvation so that the person can choose God. He uses other people (those who follow satan or agnostics like me) to provide the tests of faith with their crimes against humans--that they choose with their free will.

 

Basically, we all have some painful lessons to learn on this planet. Some are unspeakable, but all must be absorbed into our soul.

 

Hokey, I know you don't believe, and I respect anyone who has struggled with their faith, or lack there of. If it's not there for you, then its not.

[dyermaker]

Okay, think of it this way.

 

It's not that God is making your choices for you, it's that, because he's GOD, he knows what's going to happen to you. Knowing the choices you're going to make doesn't prohibit you from making them. Don't make the mistake that God operates in the same timeframe that we do. He's not up there watching things happen as we are.

 

"Before the mountains were born, or Thou didst give birth to the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God"

-Psalm 90:2

 

God isn't sitting here reading LS at 11:45 AM on a Thursday. He inhabits eternity, he knows what I'm going to write, he knows what you're going to think of it.

 

Does God use sin to accomplish his means, even though our sin displeases him?

God uses people to accomplish his plan. People sin. We can't possibly examine the consequences of every action, but it's not so linear as "John Killed Sally, God's plan for Sally was that Sally dies, and John goes to jail"--because think of all the sorts of consequences that are happening that are indirect--that you don't realize. When John goes to jail, John's kid is put into foster care, which makes him angry at the world and go into music, where he becomes an influential musician writing powerful lyrics that years later gives a depressed kid a reason to live. An innocent bystander of the shooting becomes more aware of her mortality, and so she stops cheating on her husband, stops stealing from work, begins going to church agains, and works to get her family back together again.

 

Yes, there is going to be suffering, both globally and personally. This is as a result of our choices, our sins, and our humanity. Two key points on suffering:

1) Suffering is not always bad. God works good in suffering as well, we're often to distracted to see it. We're not all going through life passively, we're active participants. Things aren't just 'happening to us', we're reacting to them as well. We're the sum of our experiences, and the experiences of suffering aren't always negative.

2) Suffering is a quality of Earthly life that's not present in eternity.

[YellowLioness]

Sorry Dyer, just playing. :-)

 

Thanks for your thoughts on God. What you said actually does make a great deal of sense to me. Sometimes, I get so focused on "little" atrocities that I forget the larger picture of things.

 

The pslams are beautiful. I'm glad you quoted them.

[Fayebelle]

Dyer is so cool

[quankanne]

I think Hokey's answer sums up free will and how God's will factors into it:

 

[color=violet]God's plan encompasses the big picture more than the day-to-day occurrences. For example: His plan is for a person to struggle and be tested time and time again, and to give that person snippets of hope for salvation so that the person can choose God. He uses other people (those who follow satan, or agnostics like me) to provide the tests of faith with their crimes against humans--that they choose with their free will. [/color]

 

one simplistic way to put it is to imagine free will as a huge, all-you-can-eat buffet that features every imaginable food under the sun. Now, when you go to dish up a plate -- and you just know the food's all gotta be delicious -- you think pretty hard about your selections.

 

you know you've got to avoid the shrimp dishes because you're allergic to shellfish; while you love beef, it tends to sit heavy on your stomach, but chicken or pork is always a good choice; and pizza ... that wonderfully cheesy-laden concoction ... always always ALWAYS gives you bad indigestion hours after you eat it.

 

still, all the foods before you look too good to pass up. What do you do? Do you avoid the ones that you know will give you problems later? Do you avoid the ones that are bad for your health overall? Or do you tell yourself, "I'll take my consequences?"

 

now, imagine you've got your exercise or weight-loss partner or someone who knows that you really should keep a certain diet, and that person is telling you, "you're gonna be sorry!" if you eat a certain food (these are your morals or your faith belief system or even outside influences). Still, you think "it's my meal, paid for out of my pocket, and I *should* get to eat what I want ..."

 

free will is a lot like that: whether we fully understand them or not, there are consequences to the actions we take, and we should make our decisions taking all those things into consideration.

 

"if God has a plan for all of us.... then was/is it his plan when children are abused, raped, murdered.... etc. That would also go into the subject of cancer and other diseases..... are these God's plans?"

 

I think people often confuse God being an all-knowing and all-seeing being with someone who is responsible for their actions. My thought is that he's not the one behind the rapist's/abuser's/murderer's action, but he is very much suffering with the person who is being subjected to these things; he's very much hurting along with the cancer survivor, the grieving mother ...

 

and he's ever-hopeful that the humans he created will step up to the plate to do the right thing, to help alleviate those problems created by others. Like offering help to victims or dedicating themselves to finding cures for incurable diseases.

 

to blame the problems of society on God is misplacing the responsibility that WE have been given to live our lives productively. God didn't create wars, nor did he create AIDS as a punishment, but he did create millions of lives who potentially can solve these problems. We are the answer right here right now, but we must choose to be the answer to our own (singular and collective) problems.

 

ringo, my heart goes out to you as you deal with this, because I can't imagine a more heart-rending situation a couple must deal with, especially because of the baby involved. But I believe there's a silver lining, an up side to every bad situation, though at first glance it may not appear to be so. That baby has a purpose in life, whether or not its' parents planned for its' existence.

[YellowLioness]

(Faye, let's make a Dyer fan club! ;-) jk jk)

 

Anne... Do you think that God feels like we do?

[Bronzepen]

Originally posted by YellowLioness

(... Do you think that God feels like we do?

 

 

 

He feels like we do and more....

[YellowLioness]

BTW, is that a really gross eye, or a nebula on your avatar?

[Bronzepen]

Originally posted by YellowLioness

BTW, is that a really gross eye, or a nebula on your avatar?

 

 

Well, here is my take on God and I am quoting myself from another thread on this subject

 

Here is the thread in case your interested. http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t30708/

 

"I believe that God or the concept of god is something that we as human beings are not meant to understand or will never understand.

 

You can quote scriptures and ask all the questions you want or try to find scientific proof. In the end you will still be left with more questions or just not understand. For some people this is incomprehensible.

 

With God we are trying to make sense of something that makes no sense.

 

 

Faith in God is believing in the unbelievable." - ME

 

 

The avatar is a helix nebula and it's been called "The Eye of God", although not by NASA.

 

Here is some info on it, if you like to know more - http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap030510.html

[quankanne]

Anne... Do you think that God feels like we do?

 

I think he understands how people feel, he's all encompassing.

 

your question reminds me of that song, "What if God Was One of Us?"

 

I remember our office getting a fax from a national Catholic watchdog kind of group, and it's leader was pretty p.o.'d that someone would trivialize the Creator that way. I heard it the song on the radio recently, and I thought it really brought home the message of Christ's humanity and how out of touch we can be with it, only seeing him as God ... the "Passion of the Christ" also does that, I think.

 

quank

[Fayebelle]

Both threads made me think of this song

 

Hey Ringo Post: 18 | Quote:

 

I love this song and it explains why I think some people have to suffer

 

"What If She's An Angel" by Tommy Shane Steiner (Brian Wayne)

 

http://www.letssingit.com/?http://www.letssingit.com/prozzak-what-if-she-s-an-angel-4f3bdjz.html

[Fayebelle]

man- I swear country music kills every good thread I put it on...

[Moose]

I often question myself about these things. The two basic questions where:

 

1. If God loves us, why does He let terrible things happen to us?

 

2. Why did He give us free will?

 

Simple, I'll paint the picture as good as I can:

 

There was a King that insisted that he had the right to choose his wives, ( Plural ), no matter if they wanted to be one of his wives or not. Some of them jumped at the chance, living in the castle, having servants, all of the riches they would be surrounded with appealed to them. Then, there were some that didn't want to have anything to do with being one of his wives. They were forced to be with him. And lastly, there was just one that truly loved the King with all of her heart.

 

After 30 or 50 years of having all these wives, the ones that didn't want to be with him became spoiled with all the riches and cold hearted towards the, "Peasants", that they used to belong to, and pleasured the King whenever he wished them to, without feeling.

 

The ones who didn't want anything to with him were all eventually killed or kicked out because of their lack of service.

 

The one that truly loved him is still there, worshiping from a far, longing to be the only focus in his life, and feeling so hurt when he's with the other, wives. How her heart ached to be with him, she loved him so much!!!

 

There are three types of people in this story. The worldly people, the forced, ( followers of law ), and the faithful. Which do you think would truly give God the love he desires? God gave us our free will so that we would love Him and serve Him with a faithful heart. Not because we were programmed to, forced to, or desire the rewards that come with it.

 

Since free will does exist, the choices that we make can sometimes bring terrible consequences. Not only from our decisions, but also, the decisions of others. ( Rapists, Killers, Thieves ) Therefore, we suffer sometimes.

 

I was physically abused by both of my step-dads, and sexually abused by one. Why do bad things like this happen?

 

We have 5 kids, but we would've had six and she would be 9 this year. Why did that happen?

 

I have Parkinson's disease, I'm only 37 years but tremble like a 70 year old. Why did that happen?

 

I truly believe that God allowed this into my life for several reasons.

 

One, Could be the way I was living my life, and as a believer and a child of God, I know better. When your kids do something wrong, you spank them, especially if it's something that could cause harm to them or someone else.

 

Second, I've been able to council several boys, ( Girls only when my wife is with me ), at Church with abusive Fathers and Mothers and talk them out of being either suicidal, or so defensive to the point of being destructive.

 

Third, My wife has been able to help those who have lost children both before birth and after.

 

Fourth, My children will know what a true family is supposed be like because I saw the other side, and I have a wife that grew up in a Christian environment.

 

These are my answers, and they may not jive with others.....I don't need translations, or others to tell me what it should or shouldn't be.....because in my heart, I know.

 

One last picture to paint, remember when your Grandmother used to make quilts? When she was close to being done, the underside looked un organized,..... threads hanging down,.... no clear pattern.... you couldn't make out what she was trying to do. But on the top, it was beautiful, full of color and patterns that were uniformed and flawless.

 

We see the underside of what God sees. To us it's all confusing and we can't make heads or tails of it. God sees the whole picture, the beautiful end result of what's to be.

 

Ok, I'm done now....thanks for reading.

[moimeme]

Just one other thought: God is not a puppeteer. He does not MAKE us - or anyone - do what we do. He just knows we're going to do it.

[YellowLioness]

I had no idea. I'm so sorry that you've been through so much, but I'm so impressed that it only strengthened your faith. Its rare to see some one embrace religion as a life style. Good for you.

 

It really is good to see.

[YellowLioness]

i also wanted to add that I wish that I had a faith of my own that I could embrace so fully. Christianity scares me because I was force fed faith when I was younger. I think that everyone can learn and take heart from your story, Moose.

[BlockHead]

YellowLioness

These being stated, if someone, of their own, God-given free will kills me, is that God's plan for my life?

That is what we call an unnatural death.

How could the killer freely choose if it was in God’s plan for your life? This is a contradiction. In fact, it is practically an excuse.

YellowLioness

How can God's plan include sin if he is a perfect being?

Why did Adam and Eve eat the apple? We choose sin, not God.

YellowLioness

Does God use sin to accomplish his means, even though our sin displeases him?

http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JOB+1&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on

Job 1:6-12

6 One day the angels [1] came to present themselves before the LORD , and Satan [2] also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"

Satan answered the LORD , "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."

8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. 10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."

Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD .

 

Job 2:1-7 http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=job+2&version=NIV

1 On another day the angels [1] came to present themselves before the LORD , and Satan also came with them to present himself before him. 2 And the LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"

Satan answered the LORD , "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."

3 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."

4 "Skin for skin!" Satan replied. "A man will give all he has for his own life. 5 But stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face."

6 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."

7 So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the top of his head.

If I am remembering correctly, Satan was the bringer of light before rebelling against God. He tested people, and by doing that, hopefully he helped strengthen their faith.

HokeyReligions

The whole book of Job is like a bet between God and Satan that God can throw all kinds of crap at Job and he will still believe and worship God.

Satan was the one who did all of the crap. God only allowed it to happen.

dyermaker

1) Suffering is not always bad. God works good in suffering as well, we're often to distracted to see it. We're not all going through life passively, we're active participants. Things aren't just 'happening to us', we're reacting to them as well. We're the sum of our experiences, and the experiences of suffering aren't always negative.

Agreed.

This isn’t a zoo.

[Fayebelle]

[size=20]THERE IS A GOD! BH JUST AGREED W/DYER!

 

mark this day on your calender ladies and gents