Self-Esteem Vs. Righteous Anger

[verhrzn]

But you're not ugly. You may not be classically beautiful, but you're not ugly.

 

And even if you were, are you saying that those who are ugly have no worth?

 

Who has actually told you to your face, in those words, that you are ugly? And you understand that people use those insults against others because they are particularly hurtful, not because they are necessarily true?

 

Why the heck would they be hurt? I've heard it from my exes, both during the relationship and after they dumped me. I've heard it from my friends ("Well, you're smart, so that's something.") I've heard it from random strangers on the street. I don't know what more proof you need than that.

 

And society says I have no worth. There is still a prevailing view among people that women are for looking at, that ugly/fat women are offensive on a visceral level.

[xxoo]

And society says I have no worth. There is still a prevailing view among people that women are for looking at, that ugly/fat women are offensive on a visceral level.

 

It sounds like you determine your value by your looks, or how people perceive your looks.

 

If you want to be valued, spend time with people who will appreciate you. Volunteer with disabled people, elderly people, refugees. You'll be valued. These people will adore you.

[Pirouette]

Why the heck would they be hurt? I've heard it from my exes, both during the relationship and after they dumped me. I've heard it from my friends ("Well, you're smart, so that's something.") I've heard it from random strangers on the street. I don't know what more proof you need than that.

 

And society says I have no worth. There is still a prevailing view among people that women are for looking at, that ugly/fat women are offensive on a visceral level.

 

I didn't say that they would be hurt. I'm saying that's the go to insult used against girls and women because it's particularly hurtful, yes in a society that so values female beauty. So people will often say it even when it's not true.

 

Did they say you were "ugly" or that they were not attracted to you? And your friends, did they out of the blue tell you you're ugly, but smart!, or was this in response to a complaint about how ugly you are?

 

Describe this random stranger incident. Unfortunately, we do need more proof because you tend to leave out a lot of qualifying details. I've seen your pictures, as have a lot of people here, and I find it very hard to believe that exes, friends, and strangers are, randomly and unasked for, telling you you're ugly.

 

I agree it's a prevailing attitude in society, and I agree with the article, be angry, stand up and fight to change perceptions of women. It starts with finding worth in yourself and in other women that has nothing to do with physical beauty. Be the change you want to see.

[amaysngrace]

Please clarify how I am avoiding responsibility or how I should do things differently. I should be happy that guys find me repulsive? I should love myself even though there is nothing lovable about me?

 

It's all well and good to say "find different friends" or "date different guys." But you go through enough of your life running into the same issues and situations over and over again, eventually you start realizing YOU are the problem. I am the problem, because I am sick of being told I am ugly by everyone around me, and then being told that I should stop bothering with my "feelings" about it.

 

What in the world happened to you to make you so jaded?

 

You scream loud and clear that you suck as a person and then you get angry that people treat you that way. What do you expect really? For people to bend over backwards to treat you with respect when you have none for yourself?

 

The world doesn't work that way. Most people if treated poorly would not tolerate it. You seem to think you somehow deserve poor treatment.

 

Who tells you you're ugly? Who's said it in the past?

[threebyfate]

Why is the onus on me and not society, to change?

Has society changed with your venting of self-righteous anger on LS? Has LS changed? How many people on LS have you changed with your crusade? None? Weird how it's not working for you.

[verhrzn]

I didn't say that they would be hurt. I'm saying that's the go to insult used against girls and women because it's particularly hurtful, yes in a society that so values female beauty. So people will often say it even when it's not true.

 

Did they say you were "ugly" or that they were not attracted to you? And your friends, did they out of the blue tell you you're ugly, but smart!, or was this in response to a complaint about how ugly you are?

 

Describe this random stranger incident. Unfortunately, we do need more proof because you tend to leave out a lot of qualifying details. I've seen your pictures, as have a lot of people here, and I find it very hard to believe that exes, friends, and strangers are, randomly and unasked for, telling you you're ugly.

 

I agree it's a prevailing attitude in society, and I agree with the article, be angry, stand up and fight to change perceptions of women. It starts with finding worth in yourself and in other women that has nothing to do with physical beauty. Be the change you want to see.

 

They said both. One kept commenting about how it was okay that I wasn't hot, because he didn't like hot girls, but his ex was hot... in fact, his ex, his best friend and the girl he had a huge crush on for years were all hotter than me, but that's okay because I had a great personality! Another dumped me over the phone by saying that I was a great person but I wasn't physically attractive. My last ex said that I was middle-to-lower range of the girls he'd slept with. I never inquired about what he thought of my looks beyond that, and he never commented on them or complimented at all.

 

My friends, it depends. Sometimes it'll be in response to me being sad about guys not hitting on me. The latest comment was from a friend who was taking a chair dance class with me. I had invited her to see my Burlesque student showcase where I did a solo, and when I asked her what she thought her response was that," It was okay. There were better ones, but it's cool that they're so accepting of different body types." Later on during the chair dance class she talked about how she was thinking of doing a solo, because hey, people were fine with me, so why should she be worried about her body?

 

The latest stranger comment was at the mall a few weeks ago. A group of teenage guys were walking behind me, and making comments about how flat my ass was, and if it was true that you could take fat from liposuction and stick it other places (lips, butt, etc.)

 

If my value has nothing to do with my physical beauty, then why are people constantly trying to convince me to be blind to reality? Why would it be BAD if I thought I was ugly? If my value comes from a place other than my looks, then being ugly shouldn't matter correct? If it doesn't matter, then why is calling myself ugly immediately labeled as "putting myself down"?

 

You guys say that physical appearance doesn't matter, have self-esteem, etc, but you also seem really, really desperate for me to believe myself pretty, even if it is completely contrary to evidence. If the attitude that women need to be pretty is wrong, then why is it so bad to refer to oneself as ugly?

[Mme. Chaucer]

 

By trying to train myself to have better "self-esteem", aren't I implicitly allowing society to not change? Instead of changing perceptions of beauty and worth, I am instead changing myself? Aren't I just sticking my fingers in my ears and going "Lalala can't hear you"?

 

 

You DO NOT challenge or try to change perceptions of beauty and worth. You absolutely uphold them all the time, and moan about how you don't measure up, and talk incessantly about getting plastic surgery so you can fall into line with what you perceive to be society's perceptions of beauty and worth - and which YOU buy into 100% every time you start ranting on and on about how ugly and miserable you are.

[Mme. Chaucer]

V, do you know how much you're sounding like the woah-is-me male Bitter Brigade here? Why shouldn't they be angry and bitter towards women when 'women' have been rejecting them all their lives? Why is the onus on them to change, even though 'women' gave them that complex? They have every right to be mean, nasty, and cruel to you because you are one of those 'women' that have tormented them so all their lives, right?

 

I know. V sounds exactly like all the men here who give me paroxysms of anger.

[Pirouette]

They said both. One kept commenting about how it was okay that I wasn't hot, because he didn't like hot girls, but his ex was hot... in fact, his ex, his best friend and the girl he had a huge crush on for years were all hotter than me, but that's okay because I had a great personality! Another dumped me over the phone by saying that I was a great person but I wasn't physically attractive. My last ex said that I was middle-to-lower range of the girls he'd slept with. I never inquired about what he thought of my looks beyond that, and he never commented on them or complimented at all.

 

Ok, so they said you're not hot. One said he didn't find you attractive. The last said middle to lower range. That's not the same as telling you you're repulsive and hideous.

 

My friends, it depends. Sometimes it'll be in response to me being sad about guys not hitting on me. The latest comment was from a friend who was taking a chair dance class with me. I had invited her to see my Burlesque student showcase where I did a solo, and when I asked her what she thought her response was that," It was okay. There were better ones, but it's cool that they're so accepting of different body types." Later on during the chair dance class she talked about how she was thinking of doing a solo, because hey, people were fine with me, so why should she be worried about her body?

 

So you don't have a model's or burlesque dancer's body. Is this news to you? Though your friends sounds like one of those passive aggressive people that's such a joy to be around.

 

The latest stranger comment was at the mall a few weeks ago. A group of teenage guys were walking behind me, and making comments about how flat my ass was, and if it was true that you could take fat from liposuction and stick it other places (lips, butt, etc.)

 

Do you have a flat butt? Do you need a non-flat butt in order to be non-ugly?

 

Those boys were clearly *******s and I am sorry that you had to hear that.

 

If my value has nothing to do with my physical beauty, then why are people constantly trying to convince me to be blind to reality? Why would it be BAD if I thought I was ugly? If my value comes from a place other than my looks, then being ugly shouldn't matter correct? If it doesn't matter, then why is calling myself ugly immediately labeled as "putting myself down"?

 

Your entire value shouldn't be placed on physical beauty. I'm not going to knock anyone who appreciates some physical attribute of theirs, but if they take all their worth from it? That seems like the definition of shallow.

 

It's bad to think you're ugly, and complain about it constantly, because you're not. You come across as if you have some sort of BDD, which you use as a crutch to blame all your problems on.

 

If we actually read about you finding value from other parts of yourself we wouldn't talk about this so much. You wouldn't talk about this so much.

 

You guys say that physical appearance doesn't matter, have self-esteem, etc, but you also seem really, really desperate for me to believe myself pretty, even if it is completely contrary to evidence. If the attitude that women need to be pretty is wrong, then why is it so bad to refer to oneself as ugly?

 

Physical appearance does matter to a degree, and I've never claimed otherwise, and I feel for those that the majority of people consider truly ugly, but you are not it. No you're not a supermodel, no you won't stop traffic and have men crawling at your feet, and maybe you won't have guys chatting you up in malls, supermarkets, and bars, but it still doesn't mean you're ugly.

 

It is wrong to only value women for prettiness, and by constantly bemoaning your ugliness, you're buying right into that attitude.

 

If you stated that you were plain or of middling attractiveness, and then talked about your other good qualities, and how you deserve in a partner what you bring to the table, then you wouldn't have pages and pages of responses.

[xxoo]

V, your appearance is normal. Not beautiful, not ugly (which are both extremes). Normal, like the majority of people in the world.

 

The other members of the dance class accepted you as you are, and supported your dancing. That's "society". Your friends seem kind of mean, but you picked 'em!

 

It seems like you desperately want to be considered pretty. You are overly focused on your appearance. Nothing good will come of it.

[verhrzn]

V, your appearance is normal. Not beautiful, not ugly (which are both extremes). Normal, like the majority of people in the world.

 

The other members of the dance class accepted you as you are, and supported your dancing. That's "society". Your friends seem kind of mean, but you picked 'em!

 

It seems like you desperately want to be considered pretty. You are overly focused on your appearance. Nothing good will come of it.

 

Yes, I obviously want to be pretty, because that's what would get me what I want in life. If you desperately wanted to be a nuclear physicist, but were dumb as a rock, wouldn't you feel awful?

 

When so many things in my life are based around needing a good appearance, it's frustrating. When so much of my value is derived from being attractive, it's demoralizing.

 

And the other members of the dance class didn't accept me, they just didn't object. They are also not the most honest of people... one of the ladies is a good deal older, and doing a fan solo. It's pretty amateur and not so good, but we all want to be encouraging, and so tell her it's great. I don't think they would ever truthfully tell me what they thought because they don't want to be jerks.

 

Maybe you guys really just cannot get this because you are not ugly like me. Other girls on the board who also describe themselves as not attractive have told me they relate.

[xxoo]

When so many things in my life are based around needing a good appearance, it's frustrating. When so much of my value is derived from being attractive, it's demoralizing.

 

Just finding a partner? Or other things?

 

Something to consider about marrying and having kids: your children will look like you. There is nothing wrong with that, but it is the reality. How will you avoid handing your beliefs about your appearance down to your children?

 

And the other members of the dance class didn't accept me, they just didn't object. They are also not the most honest of people... one of the ladies is a good deal older, and doing a fan solo. It's pretty amateur and not so good, but we all want to be encouraging, and so tell her it's great. I don't think they would ever truthfully tell me what they thought because they don't want to be jerks.

 

That's not necessarily dishonest, unless they told her it was professional quality.

 

We don't have to be perfect to deserve praise. Effort and spirit can be worthy of honest praise. I am thrilled the first time my children perform an instrument, even if it is not beautiful, because it is an accomplishment for them.

[verhrzn]

Just finding a partner? Or other things?

 

Something to consider about marrying and having kids: your children will look like you. There is nothing wrong with that, but it is the reality. How will you avoid handing your beliefs about your appearance down to your children?

 

Well romantic is the obvious one, but it also reacts into my personal and professional life. Professionally, attractive people are more likely to be hired/promoted, and people automatically assume better personality traits than they would with an unattractive person. My looks also count against me in the largely-male work environment; men are less likely to assist me or work with me because I am not attractive. They take me more seriously, but it also means that the work is entirely on my shoulders... I can't just flirt with a teammate and get the answer like one of my coworkers.

 

I am hoping to adopt, or if my kids look more like me than their father, set up a trust fund for plastic surgery.

 

 

That's not necessarily dishonest, unless they told her it was professional quality.

 

We don't have to be perfect to deserve praise. Effort and spirit can be worthy of honest praise. I am thrilled the first time my children perform an instrument, even if it is not beautiful, because it is an accomplishment for them.

 

People aren't paying $15 a show to see "effort and spirit." Effort and spirit also don't help people improve. It's all well and good to encourage effort and spirit in a setting where there is no need for improvement or display... but praising someone for their performance, when their performance was not that good, is counterproductive, because it sets them up for a bigger fall later.

 

We're raising a generation of children to believe that "effort and spirit" are all that are needed for them to be special little snowflakes. People don't get into college just for scant participation in class and mostly/sometimes doing their homework. The real world doesn't reward based on effort and spirit.

 

Put it another way; my teacher praised to the skies my solo routine, which is the ONLY reason I did it for the showcase. Turns out that my solo was mediocre at best to the audience by my friend's account (I asked her if people liked it, and she said they kinda paid attention but others were more entertaining.) Thanks to my teacher's praise, I publicly embarrassed myself. How is that helpful?

 

It's also why I get really, really sick of this whole "self-esteem" line. Now, maybe all of you enjoy opening yourself up to humiliation and ridicule. I don't much enjoy it. How often do you overhear random strangers complaining about your flat butt? Or guys making disgusted faces at you? It's all well and good to have "self-esteem," but that does not fix the issue of having to face a cruel world every time I step out the door.

 

It's time to stop putting all of the onus of responsibility on the ugly people to change. It's similar to telling victims of bullying to "just ignore it." Until, ya know, they are driven over the edge and shoot themselves/other people. Humans are social creatures; we are not isolated beings. Why is it wrong to be angry about a society that excuses belittling and bullying? Why do we blame the victims?

[threebyfate]

or if my kids look more like me than their father, set up a trust fund for plastic surgery.

So you're planning to scar your children, the same way your mother scarred you?

[HisGraceisSufficient]

By some of the posts I have read, you've definitely highlighted two words "angry/bitter." You place a high value on what you perceive you do not have and what you believe others would value in you: physical appearance. It sounds like you have this belief: "If only I had more of this, THEN I would have value. I would be important. Acceptable. Lovable. Better than what I am right now. At least, happier"

 

Especially in Western culture, human beings have a lust for what I call, consumption. We want increase. We want value. We want importance. We want bigger and better, brighter and faster, prettier and wittier.

 

So, when a monk writes:

 

Constantly choose rather to want less, than to have more.

Thomas a Kempis

 

we are confused and determined to prove it wrong. But, in fact, there is blessed peace and rest in the self-forgetfulness and loss of self. By having less.

 

What is happening is that this perceived injustice, causing all the anger and bitterness, is keeping you captive. A prisoner. You want something for the primary purpose of acceptance and importance. Your focus in on you, nearly all the time, and it sounds like its causing a lot of strain, frustration and misery. Perhaps you want to be free of this need of approval or embrace from others.

 

What has changed my life is God. You may or may not be religious but you must commit to a way of loss of self. The investment in self leads to emptiness, dissatisfaction and disappointment. There are plenty of beautiful women who feel unlovable and average or below average looking women who are happy. It isn't about appearance as much as its about wanting to be approved, accepted and valued.

 

But, when you have your value and acceptance in God, you won't lust for it in men and women. It sounds like you are holding onto the lie that if only you had appearance, your life would be better. No, it wouldn't. The truth will set you free.

[xxoo]

Well romantic is the obvious one, but it also reacts into my personal and professional life. Professionally, attractive people are more likely to be hired/promoted, and people automatically assume better personality traits than they would with an unattractive person. My looks also count against me in the largely-male work environment; men are less likely to assist me or work with me because I am not attractive. They take me more seriously, but it also means that the work is entirely on my shoulders... I can't just flirt with a teammate and get the answer like one of my coworkers.

 

I understand that research demonstrates attractive people have more advantages in the workplace.

 

You may have to work a little harder, but your appearance won't prevent you from achieving. Your appearance isn't keeping you from career success.

 

I am hoping to adopt, or if my kids look more like me than their father, set up a trust fund for plastic surgery.

 

That's awful.

 

 

People aren't paying $15 a show to see "effort and spirit." Effort and spirit also don't help people improve. It's all well and good to encourage effort and spirit in a setting where there is no need for improvement or display... but praising someone for their performance, when their performance was not that good, is counterproductive, because it sets them up for a bigger fall later.

 

I'm sorry, I maybe I misunderstood. Was this billed as a professional performance? If not, then people did pay to see effort and spirit.

 

False praise is counterproductive. Genuine praise of effort (encouragement) is very productive.

[verhrzn]

I understand that research demonstrates attractive people have more advantages in the workplace.

 

You may have to work a little harder, but your appearance won't prevent you from achieving. Your appearance isn't keeping you from career success.

 

 

Career success depends on one of three things: social skills, talent, or people's willingness to overlook your lack of those things. Physical attractiveness helps astronomically in that last one. My gorgeous coworker knows next to nothing, but is constantly flirting and batting her eyelashes to get answers, so she continues to get prompted... Other teammates complain about it behind her back, but of course encourage her promotion.

 

I am second on the team for numbers of cases taken and closed, and first for numbers of calls taken (I had 30 more calls than everyone else last month), even though I was out sick for nearly a week (a very bad flu and an apartment fire.) I get absolutely no recognition for it, or promotions, because I don't suck up to my bosses and lack the talent to be TRULY outstanding.

 

The idea that hard work gets you anywhere is a fallacy. Hard work combined with one of the other three factors certainly works, but hard work in itself does not. How else do you explain how hard I work, and yet receive no recognition for it, and in fact get people whispering behind my back about how much vacation I take? (Even though I almost always come in early and stay late to make up for it.)

 

 

That's awful.

 

Why? You guys are always telling me to get plastic surgery if I'm so ugly... why not offer the same to my children?

 

 

I'm sorry, I maybe I misunderstood. Was this billed as a professional performance? If not, then people did pay to see effort and spirit.

 

False praise is counterproductive. Genuine praise of effort (encouragement) is very productive.

 

It was promoted as a student showcase, but tickets were $15 each. You also volunteered to have a solo, but due to limited time, only certain people were allowed (draw of the hat.) So my classmate's fan dance and my solo were actually taking away time from someone who actually would have been good and the audience could have enjoyed.

[Mme. Chaucer]

So you're planning to scar your children, the same way your mother scarred you?

 

Sick. This all seems just like narcissism, except in oppositeland.

[2sunny]

This can only come from yourself. Look within. Look deep inside... Go find it and GROW it bigger by doing things that allow YOU to understand that you value yourself.

 

Btw, self esteem and self worth are not the same...

[verhrzn]

Sick. This all seems just like narcissism, except in oppositeland.

 

So what would you do if you had an ugly daughter? If she was constantly teased and taunted at school, on the street? If she knew she would have to face put-downs and insults every day she steps out the door? It's all swell and wonderful to say "Well I'd teach her to deal with it," but given the high rate of suicides among bullied teens, it starts to look ridiculous to make such claims... Not everyone is YOU, and not everyone can bear the brunt of bullying, just like not everyone can stand spicy foods.

 

So if you had an ugly daughter, who was constantly mocked, what would YOU do? Tell her to wear a bag over her head?

[2sunny]

So what would you do if you had an ugly daughter? If she was constantly teased and taunted at school, on the street? If she knew she would have to face put-downs and insults every day she steps out the door? It's all swell and wonderful to say "Well I'd teach her to deal with it," but given the high rate of suicides among bullied teens, it starts to look ridiculous to make such claims... Not everyone is YOU, and not everyone can bear the brunt of bullying, just like not everyone can stand spicy foods.

 

So if you had an ugly daughter, who was constantly mocked, what would YOU do? Tell her to wear a bag over her head?

 

Omg you are looking at physical attractiveness - I'd find what my daughter is gifted with - and encourage her to spend time and energy on what she's good at.

 

Physical beauty is an illusion. Putting so much weight on that is risky - at best!

 

Inner beauty doesn't go away.

 

Find your priorities and show your daughter how she can feel valued for HERSELF!

[Mme. Chaucer]

 

Find your priorities and show your daughter how she can feel valued for HERSELF!

 

Better yet, don't have any children, unless you have an epiphany that brings you someplace very different than you are right now. The toxicity would be crippling.

[verhrzn]

Omg you are looking at physical attractiveness - I'd find what my daughter is gifted with - and encourage her to spend time and energy on what she's good at.

 

Physical beauty is an illusion. Putting so much weight on that is risky - at best!

 

Inner beauty doesn't go away.

 

Find your priorities and show your daughter how she can feel valued for HERSELF!

 

Except she isn't always valued for herself. I certainly am not. I am not valued for anything about me. Worse yet, I receive abuse for NOT being attractive.

 

It's all hippy-dippy-great to talk about inner beauty, but strangers, acquaintances, random people can't see inner beauty. Inner beauty does not protect you from being bullied in life, from being insulted when you walk down the street.

 

So if your daughter is ugly, and that is what the world values (which is why they are mocking her for her lack of looks), then what?

[Mme. Chaucer]

So what would you do if you had an ugly daughter?

 

Fortunately, people like you who are obsessed with physical appearances and completely self-absorbed at the same time are not the majority.

 

As we all know perfectly well, billions of people who are "ugly" (or simply short of gorgeous, like you and me) are living their lives, getting fulfillment, contributing to society and to the happiness of other people, able to appreciate all of the gifts they've been blessed with.

 

Just not you.

 

Please don't have any children to infect with selfish, bitter shallowness.

[2sunny]

No - YOU receive abuse because YOU ALLOW IT! Make NO mistake about that!