Self-Esteem Vs. Righteous Anger

[Mme. Chaucer]

No - YOU receive abuse because YOU ALLOW IT! Make NO mistake about that!

 

With regards to all the "abuse" v receives because she is so "ugly;" I call BS on that.

[verhrzn]

Fortunately, people like you who are obsessed with physical appearances and completely self-absorbed at the same time are not the majority.

 

As we all know perfectly well, billions of people who are "ugly" (or simply short of gorgeous, like you and me) are living their lives, getting fulfillment, contributing to society and to the happiness of other people, able to appreciate all of the gifts they've been blessed with.

 

Just not you.

 

Please don't have any children to infect with selfish, bitter shallowness.

 

And plenty of OTHER ugly people talk about how miserable their lives are because of how much torment and pain they go through getting bullied and mocked. Some don't leave their houses. Some kill themselves.

 

Yeah, some ugly people don't care. Bully for them. What about those of us who do care? What about those of us who can't take the teasing and the mocking?

 

Just today at my team meeting my coworker made some crack about how he can't sit next to me because I need more space due to my size, and then quickly tried to insist he was joking. Do you not get how it feels to have these comments made about me and to me every day? Maybe YOU can deal with it... but then again, you have never walked a mile in my shoes, so how can you say?

 

Until you have been ugly like me, and lived a life similar to me, how dare you get to tell me how I should or should not feel about it?

 

And how would you feel being the mother of a child with those problems? How heart-breaking it is to have your daughter come home from school in tears every day because she's too ugly to have friends? To see your daughter finally kill herself because she can't take it anymore?

 

Bullies pick on the vulnerable, on the social outcasts, on the people who DON'T have things going for them. If they had things going for them, bullies wouldn't be able to taunt them as easily, and someone's looks is an incredibly easy thing TO taunt because of our social standards of beauty. It's a vicious cycle, which apparently YOU are more than happy to contribute to by constantly blaming the victims.

[verhrzn]

No - YOU receive abuse because YOU ALLOW IT! Make NO mistake about that!

 

What the heck am I supposed to do, punch them in the face? Scream at them in public? Ignore them so they keep doing it? I tried ALL of those tactics in school, and each of them ended up with the bullying continuing but ME being punished (detention, reprimands, continued taunting.)

 

Why do you blame the victims of social epidemics?

[xxoo]

Career success depends on one of three things: social skills, talent, or people's willingness to overlook your lack of those things.

 

You can improve your social skills.

 

Everything that you blame on looks can be attributed to your poor social skills: not being asked out, not being promoted, being disliked at work, bad relationship experiences.

 

Considering that you look normal, and many women as physically attractive as you have successful relationships and careers, my money is on social deficits.

 

Again, you can improve your social skills.

[TheBigQuestion]

Everyone is a victim to some extent or another, in some way or another. I could spend a good few paragraphs talking about all sorts of disadvantages and setbacks I've had, as could any other poster here.

 

Almost everyone has been bullied to some extent or another. Conflict and adversity are essential to the human condition, of which bullying is just one example. You will never eliminate bullying, judgments that you perceive as being unfair, nasty, or unfounded, and so forth. You might defer it or make it change form somehow, but it will not go away. Your efforts should be focused on rising above the nonsense on your own accord. And it starts with addressing your various self-image issues, your relationship with your family, and so forth.

[xxoo]

V, I'm pretty, and I've had people say nasty things about my looks. My breasts have been called "mosquito bites" (I'm not even flat chested...), my weight has been criticized, I've been called a boy (ok, I get it, I'm thin!). I've gotten these comments from acquaintances, coworkers, and people on the street.

 

I haven't considered it bullying, outside of school when it has some power (a group laughing after the popular boy made the "mosquito bite" comment). As an adult, I shrug it off. Can't please everyone. Why try? No reaction = no power to the statements.

[verhrzn]

Everyone is a victim to some extent or another, in some way or another. I could spend a good few paragraphs talking about all sorts of disadvantages and setbacks I've had, as could any other poster here.

 

Almost everyone has been bullied to some extent or another. Conflict and adversity are essential to the human condition, of which bullying is just one example. You will never eliminate bullying, judgments that you perceive as being unfair, nasty, or unfounded, and so forth. You might defer it or make it change form somehow, but it will not go away. Your efforts should be focused on rising above the nonsense on your own accord. And it starts with addressing your various self-image issues, your relationship with your family, and so forth.

 

Yes, everyone is bullied. But not everybody is bullied to the same extent. Not everyone has the make-up to withstand bullying. I can slam my hand knife-style on a concrete block without breaking my fingers. Does that mean I should go around telling everyone that if they can't do the same, they are weak/not trying hard enough? NO. It's that we all have different emotional/mental make-ups. Some people can do things, some people can do other things.

 

Comparing what I "should" be able to deal with, by what other people deal with, is a waste of time. They are not me, I am not them.

 

 

You can improve your social skills.

 

Everything that you blame on looks can be attributed to your poor social skills: not being asked out, not being promoted, being disliked at work, bad relationship experiences.

 

Considering that you look normal, and many women as physically attractive as you have successful relationships and careers, my money is on social deficits.

 

Again, you can improve your social skills.

 

"Improving" my social skills.... in other words, changing everything about myself. Because the issue is, who I am is not a person that meshes well with "getting along." I argue, I debate, I question. I'm not rude or dismissive, but I don't ACT right, because "acting right" is alien to my personality.

 

For example, every team meeting, our manager makes us get around in a circle and do a cheer. I despise this. I consider it un-productive, encouraging a hive-mind mentality, and just plain dumb. It is not my nature to either pretend to be cheerful, or fake enthusiasm for something I consider stupid, so I don't do it, and thus am seen as "less of a team player." Because apparently the ONLY way to be a team player is by doing lame cheers.... not by, ya know, actually working.

 

So by your estimate, I should change my personality/social skills. How is that any less destructive than changing my looks? I would much rather change my looks and keep who I am fundamentally, then change who I am fundamentally and keep my looks. Don't you think that's a little ridiculous?

[AnotherRound]

Didn't read the entire thread - but skimmed.

 

The difference is external validation vs. internal validation. OP, you say it makes no difference - but it does. If you are truly not valued by society as you say - then you have a choice. If you have external validation - you will be unhappy bc you are not valued. If you h ave internal validation - you won't care that you aren't valued by society and you will be happy - or at least not unhappy.

 

So, regardless of what society thinks of you - your happiness is your own issue if you are internally validated. Interesting thread though.

[xxoo]

"Improving" my social skills.... in other words, changing everything about myself. Because the issue is, who I am is not a person that meshes well with "getting along." I argue, I debate, I question. I'm not rude or dismissive, but I don't ACT right, because "acting right" is alien to my personality.

 

For example, every team meeting, our manager makes us get around in a circle and do a cheer. I despise this. I consider it un-productive, encouraging a hive-mind mentality, and just plain dumb. It is not my nature to either pretend to be cheerful, or fake enthusiasm for something I consider stupid, so I don't do it, and thus am seen as "less of a team player." Because apparently the ONLY way to be a team player is by doing lame cheers.... not by, ya know, actually working.

 

So by your estimate, I should change my personality/social skills. How is that any less destructive than changing my looks? I would much rather change my looks and keep who I am fundamentally, then change who I am fundamentally and keep my looks. Don't you think that's a little ridiculous?

 

You can improve your social skills without changing your personality.

 

For instance, you don't like the cheer. It isn't your style. How do you communicate that, without offending the other "teammates"? How do you gracefully bow out? That takes social skills.

[Pirouette]

Yes, being less attractive is a disadvantage, as is being poor, less intelligent, a minority in North America, having mental illness, physical infirmities, lack of social awareness, and a list of other things.

 

As a child you can be singled out for any of it and bullied mercilessly. Kids in my high school even bullied a blind girl.

 

If you don't want the individual to rise above a social condition that doesn't seem likely to change in this lifetime or the next, what are you proposing? How can things be improved?

 

"Improving" my social skills.... in other words, changing everything about myself. Because the issue is, who I am is not a person that meshes well with "getting along." I argue, I debate, I question. I'm not rude or dismissive, but I don't ACT right, because "acting right" is alien to my personality.

 

So on one side people are social creatures that need contact and approval and companionship, but the person who is not like them and doesn't mesh with them should be treated how? Made allowances for? Require special understanding? You refuse to understand how their lame group mentality is good for them, but they're supposed to understand how your argumentative loner thing is just great and unique about you?

 

So by your estimate, I should change my personality/social skills. How is that any less destructive than changing my looks? I would much rather change my looks and keep who I am fundamentally, then change who I am fundamentally and keep my looks. Don't you think that's a little ridiculous?

 

No one's telling you to change yourself completely. They're telling you to learn to play the social game like everyone else so that you can achieve the things you want. No different than putting the make up on or wearing the right clothes.

 

The world is made up of so many complex ideas and people. We're all supposed to try to live and work together. There is no one right way, no perfect life. If it exists, you and I certainly don't have it.

 

What are you saying all the disadvantaged people should do?

[verhrzn]

You can improve your social skills without changing your personality.

 

For instance, you don't like the cheer. It isn't your style. How do you communicate that, without offending the other "teammates"? How do you gracefully bow out? That takes social skills.

 

I simply slide over to my desk when the meeting part is done and they start gathering around for the cheer. I don't make a big deal of it. I have told only 3 people I am not interested in the cheer.... my manager, a coworker who agrees with me (and is openly *roll eyes* about it), and another coworker who I thought was my friend but was actually bad-mouthing me all over the office.

 

And yet I'm still not seen as a "team player."

 

How exactly am I supposed to change my personality to have social skills, if multiple things in my personality are anti-social?

[verhrzn]

Yes, being less attractive is a disadvantage, as is being poor, less intelligent, a minority in North America, having mental illness, physical infirmities, lack of social awareness, and a list of other things.

 

As a child you can be singled out for any of it and bullied mercilessly. Kids in my high school even bullied a blind girl.

 

If you don't want the individual to rise above a social condition that doesn't seem likely to change in this lifetime or the next, what are you proposing? How can things be improved?

 

That's the point. I think it's time we stopped demanding the individual suffer for it. I think it's time we stopped demanding the individual rise above the social condition, and change the social condition. As long as we're putting the responsibility on the victim's shoulders, how will the social condition change? WHY would it change.... there is no accountability or consequences for the people perpetuating the social condition. Why was it up to the blind girl to ignore the bullies, instead of other kids in the school standing up to the bullying until it stopped?

 

 

So on one side people are social creatures that need contact and approval and companionship, but the person who is not like them and doesn't mesh with them should be treated how? Made allowances for? Require special understanding? You refuse to understand how their lame group mentality is good for them, but they're supposed to understand how your argumentative loner thing is just great and unique about you?

 

They are free to dislike me all they want, but mocking me/putting social pressure on me to change is not all right. I don't mock my coworkers for participating in the stupid team cheer. I don't act rude or dismissive. So why are they allowed to? I completely understand how their "lame" group mentality works for them.... all I ask is that they respect that it DOESN'T work for me.

 

 

No one's telling you to change yourself completely. They're telling you to learn to play the social game like everyone else so that you can achieve the things you want. No different than putting the make up on or wearing the right clothes.

 

The world is made up of so many complex ideas and people. We're all supposed to try to live and work together. There is no one right way, no perfect life. If it exists, you and I certainly don't have it.

 

What are you saying all the disadvantaged people should do?

 

Well I was arguing originally that disadvantaged people should stand up and start saying," This is not right." That we should stop judging people on the "social game" like wearing make-up or putting on professional clothes. In what warped society is putting on the right clothes somehow indicative of a good work ethic over, say, having a good work ethic?

 

This has been my entire point... that we as a society put emphasis and value on the wrong things. Does being "friends" with my coworker help me at my job? No. So why is it required to seek promotion? Does being pretty help with doing my job well? No, so why do pretty people get advantaged more often?

[xxoo]

I simply slide over to my desk when the meeting part is done and they start gathering around for the cheer. I don't make a big deal of it. I have told only 3 people I am not interested in the cheer.... my manager, a coworker who agrees with me (and is openly *roll eyes* about it), and another coworker who I thought was my friend but was actually bad-mouthing me all over the office.

 

And yet I'm still not seen as a "team player."

 

How exactly am I supposed to change my personality to have social skills, if multiple things in my personality are anti-social?

 

You could joke about your anti-social nature. A little self-deprecatory humor goes a long way to smooth over differences.

 

Acknowledge you are different without judging the group, and they will accept your differences better.

[Pirouette]

That's the point. I think it's time we stopped demanding the individual suffer for it. I think it's time we stopped demanding the individual rise above the social condition, and change the social condition. As long as we're putting the responsibility on the victim's shoulders, how will the social condition change? WHY would it change.... there is no accountability or consequences for the people perpetuating the social condition. Why was it up to the blind girl to ignore the bullies, instead of other kids in the school standing up to the bullying until it stopped?

 

They are free to dislike me all they want, but mocking me/putting social pressure on me to change is not all right. I don't mock my coworkers for participating in the stupid team cheer. I don't act rude or dismissive. So why are they allowed to? I completely understand how their "lame" group mentality works for them.... all I ask is that they respect that it DOESN'T work for me.

 

Well I was arguing originally that disadvantaged people should stand up and start saying," This is not right." That we should stop judging people on the "social game" like wearing make-up or putting on professional clothes. In what warped society is putting on the right clothes somehow indicative of a good work ethic over, say, having a good work ethic?

 

This has been my entire point... that we as a society put emphasis and value on the wrong things. Does being "friends" with my coworker help me at my job? No. So why is it required to seek promotion? Does being pretty help with doing my job well? No, so why do pretty people get advantaged more often?

 

Yes, but it's not going to change, not right now. Why would the majority, if they are content, wish to change anything? Revolutions happen, but they originate with the downtrodden, the marginalized.

 

Still, I find it unlikely that there is ever going to be a level playing field for all humans. There will always be markers of greater success. If we turned into a completely thought based society and mental acuity is all that matters, what are you going to do with the less intelligent people? Would you even care?

 

So it comes back to change starts with you. You're still going to have to find your own success and happiness. No one else will change the rules to give it to you.

[verhrzn]

You could joke about your anti-social nature. A little self-deprecatory humor goes a long way to smooth over differences.

 

Acknowledge you are different without judging the group, and they will accept your differences better.

 

But why do I have to joke about it at all? Wouldn't that just draw attention to the fact that I am leaving because I think it's dumb? What is so socially unacceptable about you go do your thing, I do mine?

 

More importantly, how do you explain my earlier observations about the Hot girl in my team, who continues to get promoted even though she does half the work? If hard work is all you need, how am I not succeeding? How am I supposed to believe I have value when I work so damn hard and it goes unnoticed?

[verhrzn]

Yes, but it's not going to change, not right now. Why would the majority, if they are content, wish to change anything? Revolutions happen, but they originate with the downtrodden, the marginalized.

 

Still, I find it unlikely that there is ever going to be a level playing field for all humans. There will always be markers of greater success. If we turned into a completely thought based society and mental acuity is all that matters, what are you going to do with the less intelligent people? Would you even care?

 

So it comes back to change starts with you. You're still going to have to find your own success and happiness. No one else will change the rules to give it to you.

 

Or I start a revolution, and stop turning the problem inward. Instead of constantly pressuring me to change (my looks, my personality, my "self esteem") I instead funnel energy into making society change.

 

Which is, partially, what I try (partially) to do on this board... Point out all the ways being attractive DOES make you privileged, and how much it sucks to not be, and how it can be difficult to succeed under such a heavy social burden.

 

I don't want to mark society so much by intelligence, if nothing else because personally I lack that as well. Instead, I would like society to become merit based..... not talent-based. That we achieve things based on hard work, not natural talent. That we actually reward based not on how impressive/amazing something is, but how much work went into it.

[Pirouette]

But why do I have to joke about it at all? Wouldn't that just draw attention to the fact that I am leaving because I think it's dumb? What is so socially unacceptable about you go do your thing, I do mine?

 

More importantly, how do you explain my earlier observations about the Hot girl in my team, who continues to get promoted even though she does half the work? If hard work is all you need, how am I not succeeding? How am I supposed to believe I have value when I work so damn hard and it goes unnoticed?

 

Because people value more than just hard work. At your job, you are interacting with the same people every day. People would rather interact with others that they enjoy on multiple levels. They will take your actions on a whole, and evaluate your worth to them by their own metrics.

 

If we go with your earlier assertion that success is a function of the trifecta: hard work, social skills, and attractiveness, then your co-worker does enough of all three to be successful. By your own admission, you only achieve the one.

[xxoo]

But why do I have to joke about it at all? Wouldn't that just draw attention to the fact that I am leaving because I think it's dumb? What is so socially unacceptable about you go do your thing, I do mine?

 

Because it serves as "social lubricant", easing social interactions. It will leave people feeling good about you, rather than feeling bad. The idea is to not communicate that you think it is dumb, but rather that it just isn't your thing...acknowledging your quirk.

 

You may not "get it", but it still affects how people view you.

 

More importantly, how do you explain my earlier observations about the Hot girl in my team, who continues to get promoted even though she does half the work? If hard work is all you need, how am I not succeeding? How am I supposed to believe I have value when I work so damn hard and it goes unnoticed?

 

I've acknowledged that attractive people have an advantage. But it is only an advantage. It doesn't mean that less attractive people can not achieve the same things.

[verhrzn]

Because people value more than just hard work. At your job, you are interacting with the same people every day. People would rather interact with others that they enjoy on multiple levels. They will take your actions on a whole, and evaluate your worth to them by their own metrics.

 

If we go with your earlier assertion that success is a function of the trifecta: hard work, social skills, and attractiveness, then your co-worker does enough of all three to be successful. By your own admission, you only achieve the one.

 

Well it's fantastic to know that she does almost no work on her own and gets other people to do it for her by flirting and being hot, and yet gets promoted over me who DOES work, comes in early, stays late, researches the answer, etc. No wonder the American economy is so f*cked up if we place people in positions of power based not on the actual work or amount they do, but just because they're fun to grab a beer with.

 

And no one can seem to understand why this frustrates and infuriates me.

[verhrzn]

Because it serves as "social lubricant", easing social interactions. It will leave people feeling good about you, rather than feeling bad. The idea is to not communicate that you think it is dumb, but rather that it just isn't your thing...acknowledging your quirk.

 

You may not "get it", but it still affects how people view you.

 

By drawing attention to it?? Why is it bad to just stand up and go do my own thing? How in the world is that bad? THIS is why it's asking me to change my entire personality, because how can I possibly follow rules that make no sense? What if self-depreciating humor is not my thing? Then what?

 

It's still asking me to change.... why is it so less morally bad to you to change my personality over my looks?

 

I've acknowledged that attractive people have an advantage. But it is only an advantage. It doesn't mean that less attractive people can not achieve the same things.

 

Yes, IF they have enough of an advantage in some other location. If you're a genius, you probably don't need to be hot to obtain equal success. But if you're ugly and also average in every other area, then what?

[Pirouette]

Or I start a revolution, and stop turning the problem inward. Instead of constantly pressuring me to change (my looks, my personality, my "self esteem") I instead funnel energy into making society change.

 

Which is, partially, what I try (partially) to do on this board... Point out all the ways being attractive DOES make you privileged, and how much it sucks to not be, and how it can be difficult to succeed under such a heavy social burden.

 

I don't want to mark society so much by intelligence, if nothing else because personally I lack that as well. Instead, I would like society to become merit based..... not talent-based. That we achieve things based on hard work, not natural talent. That we actually reward based not on how impressive/amazing something is, but how much work went into it.

 

Start a revolution then. Make no mistake though, it is a change, in your attitude, your perceptions, which is all that we were arguing all along. Find your own worth in whatever manner you want. You can't start this revolution without actually believing in your cause, and that starts with you.

 

By pointing out all the things that need to change, you also need to think it through to what it should become, and embrace it. Otherwise, all you're doing is complaining but offering no solutions.

 

As for merit based, you were complaining earlier about awarding effort and special snowflake syndrome, and how it set people up for failure. Yet if enough people adopted that belief and the socialization of it spread, that's exactly what you are now advocating. It would be a difficult sell though because the end product does matter, nor can you condense the human condition into a single factor.

[xxoo]

By drawing attention to it?? Why is it bad to just stand up and go do my own thing? How in the world is that bad? THIS is why it's asking me to change my entire personality, because how can I possibly follow rules that make no sense? What if self-depreciating humor is not my thing? Then what?

 

It's still asking me to change.... why is it so less morally bad to you to change my personality over my looks?

 

Yes, I am asking you to change your behavior. You can keep your personality and change your behavior. You can keep your thoughts, opinions, and preferences and learn ways to appear polite, rather than rude.

[Pirouette]

Well it's fantastic to know that she does almost no work on her own and gets other people to do it for her by flirting and being hot, and yet gets promoted over me who DOES work, comes in early, stays late, researches the answer, etc. No wonder the American economy is so f*cked up if we place people in positions of power based not on the actual work or amount they do, but just because they're fun to grab a beer with.

 

And no one can seem to understand why this frustrates and infuriates me.

 

So this is a true evaluation of her? That she does almost no work? Then yes, your bosses and managers are all idiots and only you see the truth.

 

It probably wouldn't frustrate and infuriate you, if you benefited from it.

 

Workplaces, and schoolyards, are like microcosms of society. Yes some people get rewards that they are undeserving of. The system, which is never perfect, can try it's best to control for it and it will still happen. Machines still produce defects. The anger and frustration and bitterness, even if justified, does you no good.

[verhrzn]

Yes, I am asking you to change your behavior. You can keep your personality and change your behavior. You can keep your thoughts, opinions, and preferences and learn ways to appear polite, rather than rude.

 

You're going to need to explain why it's rude that when a meeting has concluded, I stand up and walk away. Is that not what you're supposed to do when a meeting is done?

[xxoo]

Apparently, the others consider the cheer, ludicrous as it is, as part of the meeting.

 

Likely, they hate it, too, but they stick it out and look ridiculous together.