Self-Esteem Vs. Righteous Anger

[verhrzn]

Haven't read the article, but if your summary is that ugly girls should get angry then I disagree because anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. Mostly for the selfish reason that I don't especially want to see a bunch of angry ugly girls trying to change the world.

 

If, on the other hand, these ugly girls get motivated to change society such that they become less ugly (due to a shift in societal norms), then that sounds great and I'm all for it. Only partly for the selfish reason that I don't especially want to see a bunch of ugly girls.

 

So, can the ugly girls do it without the anger? It's not pretty.

 

.... Wow. That is kind of a disgusting attitude. Sorry that angry ugly girls are such an offensive sight to you. Guess we should keep our opinions and feelings to our ugly selves?

[threebyfate]

How the hell am I expecting perfection??

Expectations of equitable treatment with more attractive individuals. It's similar to people ranting about the inequities of salary between a lawyer and a construction worker where society views the labour of the lawyer to be worth more than the labour of a construction worker.

[verhrzn]

Expectations of equitable treatment with more attractive individuals. It's similar to people ranting about the inequities of salary between a lawyer and a construction worker where society views the labour of the lawyer to be worth more than the labour of a construction worker.

 

And maybe they shouldn't. We pay a generic business person more than a teacher, and many people think that's shameful. Maybe it's also shameful to treat a traditionally attractive person better than an ugly person based ONLY on their looks.

 

I don't think hoping for a better behaved, more logically world is expecting perfection.

[oaks]

.... Wow. That is kind of a disgusting attitude. Sorry that angry ugly girls are such an offensive sight to you. Guess we should keep our opinions and feelings to our ugly selves?

 

I think what I'm getting at is that anger isn't a good motivator for change, especially if the people being angry are already perceived (or self-identify) as ugly.

[threebyfate]

And maybe they shouldn't. We pay a generic business person more than a teacher, and many people think that's shameful. Maybe it's also shameful to treat a traditionally attractive person better than an ugly person based ONLY on their looks.

Generic business people aren't paid more than teachers. If you view the average clerical salary, it's about 1/2 of what a teaching salary would be.

 

I don't think hoping for a better behaved, more logically world is expecting perfection.

Social constructs and relationships aren't logical. But then neither is the belief that ranting and raving about constructs will change the world to accommodate your preferences.

[verhrzn]

I think what I'm getting at is that anger isn't a good motivator for change, especially if the people being angry are already perceived (or self-identify) as ugly.

 

Except being nice and accommodating hasn't worked either. If being nice doesn't work, and being angry doesn't work, what exactly is supposed to work for social change?

 

And I also disagree with E earlier... Martin Luther King succeeded by being peaceable, but other "black power" organizations also succeeded, not by being physically violent, but by motivating the masses through anger. Suffragettes locked themselves to gates and starved themselves in prison. Race riots shocked the nation and brought attention to the idea that black people weren't just patient little bunnies waiting for equal rights.

 

I'm not saying anger is the ONLY way, but it can be an EFFECTIVE way, and when all other avenues have been extinguished, potentially the right way.

[verhrzn]

Social constructs and relationships aren't logical. But then neither is the belief that ranting and raving about constructs will change the world to accommodate your preferences.

 

And what will change the world, according to you? Have you tried and succeeded at changing the world-I'd love tips!

 

If not, if you think changing the world is pointless, if you think the endeavor is worthless, if you've never attempted it, or studied it, or bothered with it, then why exactly should your opinion have any merit whatsoever? What is your purpose in this thread except to rant and rave about how you wish OTHER people would stop ranting and raving? Are people only allowed to rant and rave about the things you consider worthy? Why exactly should I be changing myself to fit your definition of what I should be?

[Els]

Except being nice and accommodating hasn't worked either. If being nice doesn't work, and being angry doesn't work, what exactly is supposed to work for social change?

 

And I also disagree with E earlier... Martin Luther King succeeded by being peaceable, but other "black power" organizations also succeeded, not by being physically violent, but by motivating the masses through anger. Suffragettes locked themselves to gates and starved themselves in prison. Race riots shocked the nation and brought attention to the idea that black people weren't just patient little bunnies waiting for equal rights.

 

Do you think it was the suffragettes starving themselves in prison that did more for women's rights, or the ones who made public speeches and wrote literature and demonstrated to all how women can be equally logical, reasonable, and competent as men? Do you think it was the race riots that brought racial integration and equality, or the words of the more dignified black men who made people realize that they were humans just like them, and not mere commodities?

 

I'm not saying anger is the ONLY way, but it can be an EFFECTIVE way, and when all other avenues have been extinguished, potentially the right way.

 

Which other avenues have you attempted just yet, V?

[verhrzn]

Do you think it was the suffragettes starving themselves in prison that did more for women's rights, or the ones who made public speeches and wrote literature and demonstrated to all how women can be equally logical, reasonable, and competent as men? Do you think it was the race riots that brought racial integration and equality, or the words of the more dignified black men who made people realize that they were humans just like them, and not mere commodities?

 

Why can't it be both? Why can't movements attack from both sides, depending on the needs of the occasion?

 

 

Which other avenues have you attempted just yet, V?

 

I tried to be nice. I tried to explain. I tried to be self-hating, instead of society-hating.... I blamed myself, and thought I must be wrong, instead of turning around and realizing that the attitudes of those around me were wrong.

 

Look at this forum. I came here originally meek and sad and passive. And yet it made no one sympathetic or change their opinions about ugly girls. Heck, in some ways it made it worse, because it meant people (especially male posters) could gang up on me and I wouldn't fight back... I'd cry and think," They're right, I'm so ugly AND stupid for not realizing how easy I have it as a woman!"

 

I have been getting progressively angrier about it. At the very least I'm not longer afraid to stand up and state my opinions. It's more than I would have done a year ago, constantly trying to win the approval of posters who just want to kick dirt in my face.

[Els]

I mean, what have you done to get society to change, since you've decided on that route for yourself? What forms of social activism or public protest have you participated in? What do you intend to do to bring about this reform that you seek? Have you a plan? Besides just 'having lots of righteous anger' and venting, that is...

[verhrzn]

I mean, what have you done to get society to change, since you've decided on that route for yourself? What forms of social activism or public protest have you participated in? What do you intend to do to bring about this reform that you seek? Have you a plan? Besides just 'having lots of righteous anger' and venting, that is...

 

Just trying to get the word out there, mostly. That whole "blog" idea. Expressing my opinion and viewpoint on how ugly women's opinions are not validated on other feminist sites or dating blogs.

 

The first step is to find like-minded people and build a community for support. Can't do everything myself.

[Els]

V, you said that 'I'm not saying anger is the ONLY way, but it can be an EFFECTIVE way, and when all other avenues have been extinguished, potentially the right way.' So, since you are reverting to 'anger' right away, I was curious what other avenues were extinguished for you.

 

Having a blog and expressing your opinion and viewpoint, building a community, is great. But it needs to be motivated by positive emotions such as determination, conviction, desire to build a better world. If it is solely motivated by anger and bitterness, you are only going to end up destroying yourself while achieving less than you would have had otherwise.

[Pirouette]

Just trying to get the word out there, mostly. That whole "blog" idea. Expressing my opinion and viewpoint on how ugly women's opinions are not validated on other feminist sites or dating blogs.

 

The first step is to find like-minded people and build a community for support. Can't do everything myself.

 

Would not the first step be to articulate why an ugly person's opinions offer value to the world and should be discussed? Why you yourself are a person of value to society?

 

Then how do you propose to unite people?

[Els]

Would not the first step be to articulate why an ugly person's opinions offer value to the world and should be discussed? Why you yourself are a person of value to society?

 

Then how do you propose to unite people?

 

Exactly.

 

If you want the world to accept you as you are, you first need to be able to accept and love yourself as you are. If you cannot even convince yourself to do that, how will you convince the world, V?

 

It is akin to a black person hating himself, being bitter and angry at not being white, wishing everyday that he could be white instead, but proposing to change the world's views on black people. How will he succeed, when he doesn't even believe what he is selling to others (that he is as worthy and good a human being as anyone else)? He has already lost the battle.

[verhrzn]

Exactly.

 

If you want the world to accept you as you are, you first need to be able to accept and love yourself as you are. If you cannot even convince yourself to do that, how will you convince the world, V?

 

It is akin to a black person hating himself, being bitter and angry at not being white, wishing everyday that he could be white instead, but proposing to change the world's views on black people. How will he succeed, when he doesn't even believe what he is selling to others (that he is as worthy and good a human being as anyone else)? He has already lost the battle.

 

FINE. I ****ING GIVE UP. THERE, HAPPY?

 

God, every time I try to do SOMETHING, you guys only shoot it down, and then complain how I never do anything and only complain.

 

So, fine, ****ing whatever, I get it, you just want the ugly people to shut up and go away and stop bothering you with their feelings and inferiority so you can all live in your magical universe where everyone is attractive and happy.

 

Once again, all I get from you people is the impression that I shouldn't do anything but shut up and go the **** away. So fine, ****ing noted.

[Els]

 

You must have missed the part where I said that it was a great idea and you're just missing the first step.

[Pirouette]

FINE. I ****ING GIVE UP. THERE, HAPPY?

 

God, every time I try to do SOMETHING, you guys only shoot it down, and then complain how I never do anything and only complain.

 

So, fine, ****ing whatever, I get it, you just want the ugly people to shut up and go away and stop bothering you with their feelings and inferiority so you can all live in your magical universe where everyone is attractive and happy.

 

Once again, all I get from you people is the impression that I shouldn't do anything but shut up and go the **** away. So fine, ****ing noted.

 

If you have an idea, explain it and defend it. That's pretty standard. Otherwise, what the heck are you trying to accomplish?

 

What is this SOMETHING that you are trying to do? I can't get a straight answer from all of your posts.

 

We're asking you about your idea, starting the dialogue you claim to want, and you're the only one one shooting it down. Why is that?

[oaks]

FINE. I ****ING GIVE UP. THERE, HAPPY?

 

God, every time I try to do SOMETHING, you guys only shoot it down, and then complain how I never do anything and only complain.

 

So, fine, ****ing whatever, I get it, you just want the ugly people to shut up and go away and stop bothering you with their feelings and inferiority so you can all live in your magical universe where everyone is attractive and happy.

 

Once again, all I get from you people is the impression that I shouldn't do anything but shut up and go the **** away. So fine, ****ing noted.

 

You're doing great at the whole anger thing.

 

[threebyfate]

And what will change the world, according to you? Have you tried and succeeded at changing the world-I'd love tips!

I don't give a flying pancake about changing the world. It's full of diversity and with that diversity, I find ways to get what I want out of it and so far, it's worked.

 

If not, if you think changing the world is pointless, if you think the endeavor is worthless, if you've never attempted it, or studied it, or bothered with it, then why exactly should your opinion have any merit whatsoever? What is your purpose in this thread except to rant and rave about how you wish OTHER people would stop ranting and raving? Are people only allowed to rant and rave about the things you consider worthy? Why exactly should I be changing myself to fit your definition of what I should be?

My point is that extremism isn't making you happy. Everything is a HUGE deal to you where it's all about being self-centered and instead of honestly wanting to change the world for the better, you want to change the world so it benefits you and your perception of what the world should be. Even wanting to change the world for your convenience is fine but instead of whining about it on LS, go out and really make some differences. Go out and DO IT.

[oaks]

I've read the article now. I disagree with it. In particular, I disagree with the closing statement:

So let’s teach girls to survive a misogynist culture with a fist, not a smile.

 

Firstly I disagree with the idea that violence (which is more than just the "righteous anger" mentioned elsewhere in the article) is a solution to this non-violent problem. (and it leads me back to quoting Yoda... anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering... we've got to the suffering part now!). Secondly I disagree with the notion (not supported within the article) that there's a misogynist culture.

 

However, there's a line in there that did catch my eye:

But more importantly, I know that anger and action can be more fulfilling than being beautiful.

 

and, yes, I'm sure that could be true. The article doesn't seem very strong on specifics for what this action should be, though, so it's hard to be supportive of something that:

 

1. promotes anger
   
2. promotes violence
   
3. fails to propose actions beyond violence and anger
   
4. asserts, unhelpfully, that there is a misogynistic culture
   

 

 

Verhrzn, do you agree with the article?

[ThaWholigan]

The only way to truly change society is by social engineering. Being angry about it will just draw attention.

[verhrzn]

The only way to truly change society is by social engineering. Being angry about it will just draw attention.

 

And what is the problem with drawing attention to the problem? Lots of people (including people on this board even, hi Oaks) don't even believe the problem exists. They are so desperate to stick their fingers in their ears and go "Lalala" about the massive amounts of suicide by girls who feel socially unacceptable about their looks, about girls (and boys!) who develop eating disorders in an attempt to fit social standards, the psychological damage done to people who go on to have crippling problems with overeating, body image, and social interactions.

 

Hell, even on this board, before I became the Punching Bag for the "I want to whine about people whining!" Brigade, no one ****ing believed me that I even HAD dating problems. Do you have any idea how infuriating it is to be told that your experiences are made up, lies, exaggerations? To have your problems hand-waved away?

 

There are hundreds-THOUSANDS-of articles ranging from psychology to anthropology to feminist literature to sociology discussing how much society plays an impact on individuals. It's not made-up.

 

I can't tell if people who deny this never bothered to take any courses in these subjects in school, or if they're so arrogant as to assume they know more through antidotes than professionals who have done actual studies, but.... GOD it's infuriating.

 

So drawing attention to it may be the first step. How can you fix a problem when people are SO eager to deny there is even a problem to begin with?

[threebyfate]

Looking at the picture of the girl in the article, can't believe she had $40K in corrective surgery. Had she worn her hair over her ears, there wouldn't be much change. She was already a cute girl.

 

What's tragic is people who have body dysmorph like the girl in the article.

[ThaWholigan]

How can you fix a problem when people are SO eager to deny there is even a problem to begin with?

 

Social engineering, as I said. Getting angry about it will draw attention to it, but past that, everyone will just get back to whatever it is they were thinking about.

 

You want to change society? Become an effective social engineer.

[verhrzn]

Social engineering, as I said. Getting angry about it will draw attention to it, but past that, everyone will just get back to whatever it is they were thinking about.

 

You want to change society? Become an effective social engineer.

 

And how exactly do you do that?

 

I've tried explaining, I've tried pleading, I've tried articles upon articles and it ALWAYS comes back to accusations of denial and whining. I am sick of being shouted down and ignored. When someone isn't angry, it's easy to brush them aside... when they're passive it's easy to downplay how much impact the issue might actually have.

 

Sometimes revolutions aren't peaceful. Sometimes people need to get angry to inspire change.