Affairs and Narcissism?

[Spark1111]

Mr. Messy is also clinically diagnosed. Plus I took his penis off the leash and thought it would remain in his own yard to play. It did not so he no longer is allowed in my yard. He can doody somewhere else. :rolleyes:

 

Many people in affairs exhibit narcissistic tendencies.....

 

But clinically diagnosed, as in the real deal? There are websites and psychological specialists to help you deal with divorcing them.

 

They can be dangerous when ultimately rejected, and there is a special place in heaven for those who succesfully do so.

 

Like borderlines, narcissists hate rejection and abandonment. It unhinges them and both disorders release the full extent of a rage that knows no bounds.

 

Hats off to you! You survived and thrived. You didn't jump off a bridge or kill anyone. You may be surprised how often that happens when you try to divorce a true borderline or narcissist. Crazy making in the extreme.

[Spark1111]

I think this type of behavior/attitude is so common from former cheating - turned - ex spouses, once the divorce is long over and they now have their coveted freedom. I've run across it a lot lately with a few of my friends IRL...their ex-husbands are now miserable as single men. Not that these men are trying to get back together with their exes or anything but they are just p*ssed at the world. They blame everyone else for their unhappiness and dumping their marriage-after cheating of course-didn't help them.

 

Sounds like your XH is one of these.

 

Not so happy, right?

 

Still miserable one partner after another, once the newness and limerance has worn off, right?

 

Wherever you go, there you are, I always say.

 

You dumped the spouse and the marriage, and YOU are still not happy....one, two, three partners and jobs, and moves later!

 

Could it be YOU? Yes, I am thinking.

 

I read a book a long time ago and it said: If you are unhappy then you are the problem!

 

Imagine that?

 

It asked you to imagine that you had five more minutes to live. What would you value? What would you say? How would you respond to others? To life?

 

What would you do differently? In living a more authentic and honest life, there is no holding back, no game playing, not lack of integrity or honesty.

 

Certainly hard to spen a lifetime blaiming others and avoiding consequences.

 

To wish, hope, pray, wait that someone will change, without intensive introspection, is a pipe dream, IMHO.

[Spark1111]

No thank the good Lord. He is the reason that Mr. Messy and I both still breath. But his crazy does not compare to mine....I am OCD. :laugh::laugh:That makes me a biotch on a mission...all the time.

 

Nah! We all have our daily rituals....when they begin to consume us, we need help.

 

The more we feel out of control, the more we need to control our environment....hence, OCD.

 

Living with a diagnosed narcissist and the destruction they leave in their wake?

 

Totally out of control crazy-making! Hell, I don't have OCD, and I could see myself lining up the socks in my sock drawer and washing my hands 15x a day.

 

KUDOS to you!

[Steen719]

No, he will blame you for his unhappiness. Then, he will grow disenchanted with the girlfriend within three years.....unless she is a total doormat who continues to...a) agree with his anger no matter what, b) agree he was totally victimized by you and life circumstances and c) never render an independent opinion or emotion that could be contrary to his victim mentality.

 

I suggest calling her up! Let her know you are a sweet, devoted woman who is not ATTILLA the HUN. Plant a seed of doubt her head that you are not the DEVIL INCARNATE.

 

But that's me....

 

Devaluing a past partner while elevating the new partner is not only a characteristic of affairs.....it is a characteristic of narcissism.

 

Actually, I did write her an email and told her about him. I also said we had an agreement not to use the house for new "people". She never answered me and continued to come every other weekend, sleeping in my bed, parking in my place. She obviously didn't care. She has been married 3 times, he cheated on me twice and she is jealous of our marriage. I imagine because it was long term? Who knows? She got mad because he talked about a vacation we took. She better be vigilant. He will be looking around, is my guess.

 

Also, he did tell the first - well, the second first -ha ha, I mean the first one this time - that I was awful to him and screamed at him in front of the Drs. and nurses and was really mean to him. (I did end up talking to her via message) He told her our marriage had been over for years - typical, I guess. I told him, gee why didn't you tell me before I took care of you and went into insurmountable debt? He changed it to just the last year. LOL anything to fit his agenda, right? Oh well.

 

Interesting thread. I did read that once a narcissist thinks you are through with them, really get it, they turn their head and find someone else immediately. That is what started me thinking he was a narcissist. Unreal, I should have seen it earlier.

[Spark1111]

Actually, I did write her an email and told her about him. I also said we had an agreement not to use the house for new "people". She never answered me and continued to come every other weekend, sleeping in my bed, parking in my place. She obviously didn't care. She has been married 3 times, he cheated on me twice and she is jealous of our marriage. I imagine because it was long term? Who knows? She got mad because he talked about a vacation we took. She better be vigilant. He will be looking around, is my guess.

 

Also, he did tell the first - well, the second first -ha ha, I mean the first one this time - that I was awful to him and screamed at him in front of the Drs. and nurses and was really mean to him. (I did end up talking to her via message) He told her our marriage had been over for years - typical, I guess. I told him, gee why didn't you tell me before I took care of you and went into insurmountable debt? He changed it to just the last year. LOL anything to fit his agenda, right? Oh well.

 

Interesting thread. I did read that once a narcissist thinks you are through with them, really get it, they turn their head and find someone else immediately. That is what started me thinking he was a narcissist. Unreal, I should have seen it earlier.

 

Do NOT blame yourselF!

 

They are charming, intelligent and often very successful! They are adept at pulling out all the stops and getting MANY women to fall for them.

 

They pursue and woo and get the best women to fall for them. Once committed to them, they start turning into their true selves.

 

It leaves their partner second guessing THEMSELVES, or sacrificing everything to get back to those early days when they felt so cherished by the Narcissist. They lose their soul in the process.

 

No one EVER sees the narcissism until AFTER the fact. They are that insidious.

[Furious]

In every article I've read on Narcissism, the main thing that stands out is lack of empathy.

 

While in an affair, there's a lot of justifying, ego stroking, and entitlement, and being able to abandon empathy for the spouse they're betraying.

 

For some, the empathy button can be shut on and off, for those who are diagnosed with NPD, there's only one setting for their empathy button..OFF.

[beenburned]

Spark,

 

You are exactly right, I am simply here daily. If not me, it would be someone else!

 

However, I have noticed he is much better now than when he was younger.

He will now apologize, and recognize that his behavior (venting at me) was wrong.

 

bentnotbroken,

 

That was one of the funniest posts I have ever read!!

[Spark1111]

In every article I've read on Narcissism, the main thing that stands out is lack of empathy.

 

While in an affair, there's a lot of justifying, ego stroking, and entitlement, and being able to abandon empathy for the spouse they're betraying.

 

For some, the empathy button can be shut on and off, for those who are diagnosed with NPD, there's only one setting for their empathy button..OFF.

 

And don't we all know someone who is like this even a little?

 

No one's pain is their pain! No one's loss can compare to their loss!

 

It's fatiguing to be in their company...can't imagine a relationship with one!

 

It would be give, give, give till you're sapped.

 

No empathy. more than a little arrogance and a lot of rage when challenged or criticized. These people attack.

 

I wonder if that is why affairs appeal to them. No demands, few expectations, and constant positivity and adoration from the affair partner who, on some level, must agree it is all the spouse's fault?

 

That would suit a narcissist just fine!

 

Like I read, they can be very, very charming.

[Furious]

And don't we all know someone who is like this even a little?

 

No one's pain is their pain! No one's loss can compare to their loss!

 

It's fatiguing to be in their company...can't imagine a relationship with one!

 

It would be give, give, give till you're sapped.

 

No empathy. more than a little arrogance and a lot of rage when challenged or criticized. These people attack.

 

I wonder if that is why affairs appeal to them. No demands, few expectations, and constant positivity and adoration from the affair partner who, on some level, must agree it is all the spouse's fault?

 

That would suit a narcissist just fine!

 

Like I read, they can be very, very charming.

 

 

Yes, as charming as a snake.

[Snowflower]

I suspect you are right. While I would be lying if I said I wouldn't care if he ever realizes he is responsible for his own bad choices (just as I am), I mostly attempt every single day to leave that to his future, not mine. Some days I am more successful than others, but my trend is that way. Thank you -

 

Yeah, I get where you're coming from. As we sorted through the mess after his affair, my H admitted that he blamed our marriage for his unhappiness. Not me as much, but our marriage, our life together as it was was apparently in his mind a leading cause of his unhappiness.

 

So, he thought tossing the marriage and having an affair were not going to be a big deal in the long run (his words-paraphrased).

 

I fought like h*ll (before I knew that he was having an A) to get him to see the light and reason with him that our life together was good. It was exhausting and probably the hardest thing I've ever done. I always valued our marriage and it hurt(s) that he didn't.

 

I have tried to get him to see the value in it in the intervening time since his A. I have also learned that he is going to have to realize the value of it on his own. My part in getting him to realize this has been/is done.

 

If he doesn't realize the value in it and decides to leave/have another affair, then that is on him. It will cost me too much emotionally at that point to be any further invested in how he values our marriage, or whether he regrets his decisions down the road, which apparently wouldn't be much.

 

Not sure if that makes sense and it probably doesn't mesh with this thread...just my thoughts on some uniqueness (I think) of my situation.

[Steen719]

Yeah, I get where you're coming from. As we sorted through the mess after his affair, my H admitted that he blamed our marriage for his unhappiness. Not me as much, but our marriage, our life together as it was was apparently in his mind a leading cause of his unhappiness.

 

So, he thought tossing the marriage and having an affair were not going to be a big deal in the long run (his words-paraphrased).

 

I fought like h*ll (before I knew that he was having an A) to get him to see the light and reason with him that our life together was good. It was exhausting and probably the hardest thing I've ever done. I always valued our marriage and it hurt(s) that he didn't.

 

I have tried to get him to see the value in it in the intervening time since his A. I have also learned that he is going to have to realize the value of it on his own. My part in getting him to realize this has been/is done.

 

If he doesn't realize the value in it and decides to leave/have another affair, then that is on him. It will cost me too much emotionally at that point to be any further invested in how he values our marriage, or whether he regrets his decisions down the road, which apparently wouldn't be much.

 

Not sure if that makes sense and it probably doesn't mesh with this thread...just my thoughts on some uniqueness (I think) of my situation.

 

I think it meshes just fine. I hope your H does realize the value of your marriage himself. I hear you; the second time just did me in. I mean, how many times can you go through that? I was just in disbelief the 2nd time; I mean total disbelief. Double stab in the heart to me; twice and this time after I had cared for him. I find that incredibly arrogant. I just couldn't like him very much after he lied about how I was to him. Oh well.

 

It sounds like your H and my XH have an ability to think that doing one of the worst things you can do to your partner is not that big of a deal. Go figure. Good luck, Snowflower. I really hope all goes well for you and i works out that he sees what he has.

[Steen719]

Do NOT blame yourselF!

 

They are charming, intelligent and often very successful! They are adept at pulling out all the stops and getting MANY women to fall for them.

 

They pursue and woo and get the best women to fall for them. Once committed to them, they start turning into their true selves.

 

It leaves their partner second guessing THEMSELVES, or sacrificing everything to get back to those early days when they felt so cherished by the Narcissist. They lose their soul in the process.

 

No one EVER sees the narcissism until AFTER the fact. They are that insidious.

 

I know, I know, but I never have to have someone else blame me - I blame myself enough. I don't know why that is, maybe my Catholic upbringing. I am sure I am guilty of something! LOL

[Radagast]

So, during the affair (and maybe before and after it) did your spouse exhibit signs of narcissism and all about me-ism?

 

 

Definitely. I had accepted that as "normal" for so long that it took meeting a sane, well-balanced woman who could be a partner in the true sense of the word for me to realise that this was not "normal" but in fact deeply unhealthy, for everyone involved.

[Radagast]

One article did say that it would be more likely for a spouse to stray IF they had an emotionally unstable and quarrelsome spouse.

 

Common sense, I'd have said.

[worldgonewrong]

Common sense, I'd have said.

 

Nope.

That discounts the WS's mid-life crisis or shaky emotional make-up anyway.

[FelicityShot]

Not so happy, right?

 

Still miserable one partner after another, once the newness and limerance has worn off, right?

 

Wherever you go, there you are, I always say.

 

You dumped the spouse and the marriage, and YOU are still not happy....one, two, three partners and jobs, and moves later!

 

Could it be YOU? Yes, I am thinking.

 

I read a book a long time ago and it said: If you are unhappy then you are the problem!

 

Imagine that?

 

It asked you to imagine that you had five more minutes to live. What would you value? What would you say? How would you respond to others? To life?

 

What would you do differently? In living a more authentic and honest life, there is no holding back, no game playing, not lack of integrity or honesty.

 

Certainly hard to spen a lifetime blaiming others and avoiding consequences.

 

To wish, hope, pray, wait that someone will change, without intensive introspection, is a pipe dream, IMHO.

 

Narcissists are essentially the most lonely people on the planet. They can't be truly in touch with others, because they are so worried about how others react. And how that reflects/bounces back.

 

We all have a bit of that in us, but most find a way to still connect with others.

 

I find it hard to reconcile ideas of putting people down as narcissists/whatever, and commenting on these people as non-valuable, and in embracing a diverse society.

 

As has been said, narcissists, as we are conceiving them, are bred from bad/absent parenting.

 

While accepting my own faults and bad choices, I have learnt to also understand all the players in the scenario make the story.

 

This makes me wary of witch hunts - where there is one bad party. I did think many BS's may be narcissists - also lonely and finding it difficult to connect.

 

A narcissist is a fantastic lover just waiting for someone to break the loneliness.

 

And sometimes outside intervention is necessary - we exist with others truly touching us and vice versa.

[Spark1111]

Narcissists are essentially the most lonely people on the planet. They can't be truly in touch with others, because they are so worried about how others react. And how that reflects/bounces back.

 

We all have a bit of that in us, but most find a way to still connect with others.

 

I find it hard to reconcile ideas of putting people down as narcissists/whatever, and commenting on these people as non-valuable, and in embracing a diverse society.

 

As has been said, narcissists, as we are conceiving them, are bred from bad/absent parenting.

 

While accepting my own faults and bad choices, I have learnt to also understand all the players in the scenario make the story.

 

This makes me wary of witch hunts - where there is one bad party. I did think many BS's may be narcissists - also lonely and finding it difficult to connect.

 

A narcissist is a fantastic lover just waiting for someone to break the loneliness.

 

And sometimes outside intervention is necessary - we exist with others truly touching us and vice versa.

 

Oh I don't disagree with you at all.

 

However, like most personality disorders, is very hard to empathize with those who so calculatingly leave a wake of selfish destruction in their paths with no empathy to the pain they have caused. They may talk the talk...but truly do not care that you are devastated, whether you be the BS or the OW.

 

Narcissists are charming and have many affairs because they need an endless supply of attention and validation.

 

This certainly does NOT sound like lonely BS. We all need attention and validation to a degree. Most do not hurt others to get it however. Or have affairs with many women or men at the same time.

 

I have read that in the perfect storm of an affair, people will exhibit narcissistic tendencies though they may not be clinical narcissists.

 

I believe this is true.

[Ellin]

I don't think narcism effectively describes my H during his affair. Selfish? Yes. But a narcissist? No. The differences between the two are subtle, but I don't think my H was more in love with himself during that period (ie a narcissist) than he was just acting on selfish impulses (making decisions based on his wants versus thinking about the impact on anyone else).

Are we talking about Narcissistic Personality Disorder? If so, it is not correct to say a Narcissist is someone who is in love with himself. It is much more complicated than that.

 

Also, a person cannot develop a personality disorder suddenly in the middle of their adulthood and then be cured again, like for the duration of an affair. It just doesn't work like that.

[Spark1111]

True narcissists are not a common thing from what I've read. I think we all have traits, and I would think that someone who has narcissistic tendencies they would become stronger once involved in an affair but a true NPD is not such a common thing.

 

I was not familiar with the term until a few years ago and I stumbled on it, maybe it was here. I did some extensive reading on it, when I had a ahhh haaa moment about a man I dated, in fact was engaged to for around 3 years. He hadn't been officially diagnosed but from what I've read imho he definitely is one. The bell rung so many times when I looked at the characteristics an NPD has it was scary and it sure explained a lot about him. Oh he was very charming to start with but later became very controlling and emotionally abusive.

 

In regards in how it relates to this thread, as I got to know him better, I found out that he had never been faithful in any of his relationships, not one. Two marriages and several other relationships. As for when he was with me, I think he was, until the last year, by then I didn't care to know. I just wanted out.

 

You dodged a bullet.

[2sure]

During the death throes, just before the divorce, my serial cheating exH and his doctor were thrilled to sit me down and share the medical reason for his behavior: NPD with some other things thrown in for flare. Seriously, I was called into the office to receive this information as though all of our problems had been not just diagnosed, but solved. The doctor acted as though myX had an affliction or disability, and myX literally had eyes filled with tears of relief.

 

My response was along the lines of ...Duh? Yeah, he is a selfish pig, hence the DIVORCE?? No Mystery here boys.

 

In hindsight, I think the whole "diagnosis" was an attempt at legal manipulation.

He was not unempathetic to the pain he caused me. He hurt himself as well.

 

His selfishness, to me, was because his self loathing (honestly come by) caused him to require an endless amount of new validation .

 

Fortunately for him, he is in politics so this is possible.

[2sure]

Ahhh! just remembered! months BEFORE the NPD was announced, he went to some kind of sex addicts retreat. (probably Vegas)...and I didn't buy that either. I mean, maybe it's true, but it doesn't change a thing.

[2sure]

This is the first time I've laughed about this without being drunk.

That's a good sign.

[Spark1111]

During the death throes, just before the divorce, my serial cheating exH and his doctor were thrilled to sit me down and share the medical reason for his behavior: NPD with some other things thrown in for flare. Seriously, I was called into the office to receive this information as though all of our problems had been not just diagnosed, but solved. The doctor acted as though myX had an affliction or disability, and myX literally had eyes filled with tears of relief.

 

My response was along the lines of ...Duh? Yeah, he is a selfish pig, hence the DIVORCE?? No Mystery here boys.

 

In hindsight, I think the whole "diagnosis" was an attempt at legal manipulation.

He was not unempathetic to the pain he caused me. He hurt himself as well.

 

His selfishness, to me, was because his self loathing (honestly come by) caused him to require an endless amount of new validation .

 

Fortunately for him, he is in politics so this is possible.

 

You still make me laugh!

 

Politics, celebrity and sports are the perfect arenas for narcississts. Many are VERY successful.

 

Self-loathing and a lack of a true self is at the heart of narcissism, hence their self depends solely on the constant adoration of strangers. One woman is NEVER enough.

 

And yes they can cry. Harder to determine is if it is tears of empathy for your pain.....or their own.

[Steen719]

True narcissists are not a common thing from what I've read. I think we all have traits, and I would think that someone who has narcissistic tendencies they would become stronger once involved in an affair but a true NPD is not such a common thing.

 

I was not familiar with the term until a few years ago and I stumbled on it, maybe it was here. I did some extensive reading on it, when I had a ahhh haaa moment about a man I dated, in fact was engaged to for around 3 years. He hadn't been officially diagnosed but from what I've read imho he definitely is one. The bell rung so many times when I looked at the characteristics an NPD has it was scary and it sure explained a lot about him. Oh he was very charming to start with but later became very controlling and emotionally abusive.

 

In regards in how it relates to this thread, as I got to know him better, I found out that he had never been faithful in any of his relationships, not one. Two marriages and several other relationships. As for when he was with me, I think he was, until the last year, by then I didn't care to know. I just wanted out.

 

I think that is right; it is not that common and there are plenty of people with traits, but not "diagnosable" as NPD. I do think people in affairs look like they have this, but may be just selfish or exhibiting what seems like traits. Also, some people, like my XH, have some of the traits in that he was excessively self-important, lied about accomplishments and the other things I said and while he had some other good traits (I also mentioned he did), the lies, the other women, the unfeeling, cold attitude that he showed when I was in such pain over his activities and blah blah blah, made his actions unacceptable, no matter what you call it. I am all for understanding, but it can't be at the expense of your self worth and sanity. Each and every one of us has to and should decide what we can live with, no matter what anyone else thinks.

 

A NPD will not leave you in peace until they find a replacement

 

^^^

This is what I read that started me thinking about it and exactly what my XH did. He asked me night and day about staying with him while he was still talking to the love interest and perusing his dating site, Facebook, for other victims and as soon as I got through to him that I couldn't live with that crap, he turned his head and found another woman...that quick.

 

I am all for being understanding, but shouldn't there be a limit? Should be forgive and forget for all of your married life?

[Steen719]

You still make me laugh!

 

Politics, celebrity and sports are the perfect arenas for narcississts. Many are VERY successful.

 

Self-loathing and a lack of a true self is at the heart of narcissism, hence their self depends solely on the constant adoration of strangers. One woman is NEVER enough.

 

And yes they can cry. Harder to determine is if it is tears of empathy for your pain.....or their own.

 

Yep, yep, yep

 

The entire time I was crying and in so much pain, he would calmly tell me that I could stay and maybe it work out, or it was done and so he could not change that and never a tear. He never cried for me. But after he dated the woman he is with now for a few months, she broke up with him because she didn't trust him and also he had talked about a family vacation and she did not like that. He had the biggest crocodile tears in his eyes - so sad. It made me sick. Good grief!