M30USA Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Jesus said that all sins can be forgiven, with the exception of the "sin against the holy spirit". My question isn't about what defines a sin against the holy spirit, but rather the following: If, for example, someone falsely accused you of something in court, which wound up causing you great suffering and punishment, would God forgive that person if they asked? You may say yes, but what if it was STILL within that person's power to correct or take back their false accusation against you, yet they choose not to? Would God still forgive that person? What do you think? Link to post Share on other sites
amaysngrace Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I was taught that suicide is the only sin that cannot be forgiven because you can't feel remorse for it once you are dead. Link to post Share on other sites
Author M30USA Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 I was taught that suicide is the only sin that cannot be forgiven because you can't feel remorse for it once you are dead. Hmm...I know Martin Luther believed that suicide could be forgiven. He said that if person could be so overcome with hurt that they kill someone else (and God forgives them), why would God not forgive them if they were so overcome with hurt that they killed themselves? Link to post Share on other sites
amaysngrace Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Hmm...I know Martin Luther believed that suicide could be forgiven. He said that if person could be so overcome with hurt that they kill someone else (and God forgives them), why would God not forgive them if they were so overcome with hurt that they killed themselves? I don't know. I was just saying what I was taught. I wasn't raised a Lutheran. Link to post Share on other sites
Author M30USA Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 I don't know. I was just saying what I was taught. I wasn't raised a Lutheran. I'm not a Lutheran, either. At least not the denomination. I do think the man was awesome. Link to post Share on other sites
mercy Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Jesus said that all sins can be forgiven, with the exception of the "sin against the holy spirit". My question isn't about what defines a sin against the holy spirit, but rather the following: If, for example, someone falsely accused you of something in court, which wound up causing you great suffering and punishment, would God forgive that person if they asked? You may say yes, but what if it was STILL within that person's power to correct or take back their false accusation against you, yet they choose not to? Would God still forgive that person? What do you think? I think that another persons relationship with God is just that, their relationship. What matters to me is what God knows, He knows the truth and he'll deal with that person. I tell on people all the time to God (as if He needs my help ). From my lips to His ear. I give those that hurt me to God. Then I'm free. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
pie2 Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I'm just thankful that God's capacity to forgive is much bigger than my own. Sometimes I may ask God for forgiveness for my own failings. And then, an hour later, I'm doing it again! At the time, I was really sorry though (sounds lame, I know). So, my asking for forgiveness was genuine, but imperfect. I think that God does know my intentions though 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Author M30USA Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 If someone sins against you (especially knowingly) and then asks God for forgiveness while still having the ability to correct the damage they've caused, I believe God will NOT hear them and therefore not forgive them. Jesus, himself, said that if we kneel down to pray and have a conflict with our neighbor (which is in our power to correct), then we are to get up, make things right with our neighbor, then pray and God will hear us. There are also numerous verses about God "turning his face" from those who sin against him. Contrary to modern Christian church teaching, God is not just this neverending fountain of forgiveness which can be taken advantage of. He has requirements and limitations on his forgiveness. Otherwise we wouldn't learn and he would be allowing us to become childish and hardhearted. Link to post Share on other sites
TheFinalWord Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 If someone sins against you (especially knowingly) and then asks God for forgiveness while still having the ability to correct the damage they've caused, I believe God will NOT hear them and therefore not forgive them. Jesus, himself, said that if we kneel down to pray and have a conflict with our neighbor (which is in our power to correct), then we are to get up, make things right with our neighbor, then pray and God will hear us. There are also numerous verses about God "turning his face" from those who sin against him. Contrary to modern Christian church teaching, God is not just this neverending fountain of forgiveness which can be taken advantage of. He has requirements and limitations on his forgiveness. Otherwise we wouldn't learn and he would be allowing us to become childish and hardhearted. Now you sound Arminian, with potential to fall from grace Two kinds of forgiveness: Positional forgiveness: all sins are forgiven the moment we ask Christ into our heart. If someone is a Christian, and asked Christ into their heart, they are already forgiven for all sins they ever have or will commit. Lots of people worry, "what if I die before asking for forgiveness? What if I forget about a sin?" Relational forgiveness: If we live in sin, this hinders our relationship with God. Asking for forgiveness for sins we commit after receiving Christ is about fellowship with God. If someone is a Christian, God may chastise them (Heb. 12:6), require they reconcile with a person for the damage they've causes (Luke 19:1-10), if it's a husband mistreating his wife his prayers may be hindered (1 Peter 3:7). Probably other examples of how as Christians if we sin, our relationship with God is hindered. But we will still go to heaven 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Author M30USA Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 Not unless God is the one who hardens a person's heart when they're asking for the forgiveness. Then it could still be Calvinistic. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
mercy Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Now you sound Arminian, with potential to fall from grace Two kinds of forgiveness: Positional forgiveness: all sins are forgiven the moment we ask Christ into our heart. If someone is a Christian, and asked Christ into their heart, they are already forgiven for all sins they ever have or will commit. Lots of people worry, "what if I die before asking for forgiveness? What if I forget about a sin?" Relational forgiveness: If we live in sin, this hinders our relationship with God. Asking for forgiveness for sins we commit after receiving Christ is about fellowship with God. If someone is a Christian, God may chastise them (Heb. 12:6), require they reconcile with a person for the damage they've causes (Luke 19:1-10), if it's a husband mistreating his wife his prayers may be hindered (1 Peter 3:7). Probably other examples of how as Christians if we sin, our relationship with God is hindered. But we will still go to heaven If someone hasn't told you today, I will, you are such a gift! 2 Link to post Share on other sites
TheFinalWord Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 If someone hasn't told you today, I will, you are such a gift! awww shucks Mercy :love: Thank you!! 1 Link to post Share on other sites
pie2 Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 M30 - What is your stance on forgiving others in general? Do you think we should forgive people that have not asked for forgiveness? Link to post Share on other sites
Author M30USA Posted October 20, 2012 Author Share Posted October 20, 2012 M30 - What is your stance on forgiving others in general? Do you think we should forgive people that have not asked for forgiveness? I think a prerequisite of forgiveness is that someone ASK for it or WANT to be forgiven. If a person does not even believe they've done wrong, or thinks that it's justified for whatever reason, how could you forgive them even if you WANTED to? But then again, I know Jesus forgave people even when they weren't aware what they were doing. So I would probably need to think this idea through more before defending my stance. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
pie2 Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 I think a prerequisite of forgiveness is that someone ASK for it or WANT to be forgiven. If a person does not even believe they've done wrong, or thinks that it's justified for whatever reason, how could you forgive them even if you WANTED to? But then again, I know Jesus forgave people even when they weren't aware what they were doing. So I would probably need to think this idea through more before defending my stance. I completely agree! I'm relieved that I'm not the only one who finds difficulty in the idea of forgiving people that aren't sorry. But at the same time, I can try to forgive the sin, as I understand what we're all capable of, deep down. I guess the main commandment I need to worry about is forgiving the people that do ask forgiveness. It can be difficult sometimes though. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
mercy Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 I think a prerequisite of forgiveness is that someone ASK for it or WANT to be forgiven. If a person does not even believe they've done wrong, or thinks that it's justified for whatever reason, how could you forgive them even if you WANTED to? But then again, I know Jesus forgave people even when they weren't aware what they were doing. So I would probably need to think this idea through more before defending my stance. Forgiveness isn't about the other person it's about releasing yourself of anger and bitterness. Freedom. It's why Jesus tells us to forgive 70 times 70, whomever sins against you, we should strive towards forgiveness for our own health and welfare. It's not about what they have done to us or how many times. It's about us and our love and connection to God and His loving Son who chose to die on a cross for our sins. And I know for a fact that Jesus has forgiven me more than 70 times 70. If God could sacrifice His Son for my sins, then the least I can do is forgive those who have sinned against me. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
pie2 Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Forgiveness isn't about the other person it's about releasing yourself of anger and bitterness. Freedom. Forgiveness is very freeing!! Amen In the case when forgiveness has not been asked for, I think an alternate to forgiveness is praying for the transgressor, putting the incident on the foot of the cross, asking that God take charge in the person's life. I also find that to be very freeing when I am having difficulty forgiving God, forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. (Matt. 6:12). 2 Link to post Share on other sites
mercy Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 on the foot of the cross.. Reminds me of a song! Now I can Trade these ashes in for beauty And wear forgiveness like a crown Coming to kiss the feet of mercy I lay every burden down At the foot of the cross 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author M30USA Posted October 21, 2012 Author Share Posted October 21, 2012 Right... But the topic of this thread is not about us forgiving others, but God forgiving people--especially when they currently have it within their power to undo the sin they have committed against another, yet knowingly refuse. Link to post Share on other sites
pie2 Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Right... But the topic of this thread is not about us forgiving others, but God forgiving people--especially when they currently have it within their power to undo the sin they have committed against another, yet knowingly refuse. lol...you're right M30, there was some thread-jacking going on... (There was at least some connection between ideas though ). Link to post Share on other sites
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