Why men are opting out of marriage

[WP4046]

That makes me grimace so hard.

 

 

it's a big thing to tell their girlfriends they have a husband or their boys I am about to be married

[WP4046]

Or they actually just want to be married.

 

 

yeah so they can have the title

[soccerrprp]

There are a fair number of women (men) who still like the fairy-tale marriage. Not the fairy-tale wedding necessarily, but some people still believe in the institution of marriage. I'm one and so is my gf.

[BecomingABetterMe]

I dunno. I think the fairytale aspect is what gets people. They get married (like my boyfriend's ex) expecting that marriage is going to be a fairytale. It's not. It's tough. My parents have been married for 35 years and it has been really hard at times, but they love each other more than life itself. If I were to get married, that's what I'd want. Someone who is really willing to work for it together, as a team.

[RedRobin]

There are those who believe that life is better in a committed relationship, ideally for life, and those who do not.

 

I'm one who believes that commitment is a worthy goal, and that the best things in life come from it... this is a philosophy I apply to every aspect of my life.

[Woggle]

I a proponent of happy marriages but it is better to be single than be a man in the kind of situation Cinnimon describes.

[Kelemvor]

Interesting thread. I've given quite a lot of thought to this over the years and have my own theories. Certainly, societal pressure to conform to socially accepted norms has a lot to do with why someone would essentially place "a losing bet" on such a major life decision. That being said... I find it ironic that those of us who are attractive, over achieving, financially successful, single bachelors... are the exact pool of individuals that are given no incentive to seek out marriage. The exact subset of the population that you would think the gov and society would want to encourage marriage and the production of offspring. It's exactly the opposite effect for someone like myself. I was married for 2 years to a women with multiple degrees and certainly able to sustain herself with a very comfortable lifestyle but lost almost 100K with NO CHILDREN whatsoever. That's after being dragged through a horrible gender biased court system for months while her lawyer extorted me. It all boiled down to legal tactics, legal extortion and justification based on our large difference in income. It was such a bizarre experience for me and a complete eye opener to how the court systems operate. I finally realized just how much someone like myself stands to lose if a marriage doesn't work out. Sure, I'd love to be a dad someday or be involved with a family but I just simply can't risk losing my assets or paying such a painful alimony that it extends my retirement by another 10 years.

 

Compare that situation with your average loser, absent father who has a random job every 2 months and isn't worth pursuing for alimony/child support in court because he simply doesn't have anything. He has no reason to be afraid of marriage at all. He has many more incentives to seek out marriage than someone like myself. So, it's him and his cohorts that contribute to the gene pool while I have to do everything possible to avoid impregnating a woman for fear of losing everything and being dragged through court.

 

I don't know if today's current state of marriage is what females intended it to be when we started this whole liberation movement for women. I don't even know if that's where the problem lies, but you certainly can't blame successful men for being reticent to commit to marriage. I hope I meet someone one day, but I'm coming closer and closer to accepting the inevitable fact that I'll probably never get married, or if I do... it will be with one hell of a prenup agreement and after a vasectomy. It's simply a risk vs rewards and the risk is unfortunately too great at this point in time. Sex is easily obtained through normal relationships, birth control is easily accessible. There's really no reason to seek out marriage even for those of us who would enjoy that level of commitment and possibly a potential family. Instead, guys like me are stuck pursuing serial monogamy with the death of the relationship when a woman backs us into a corner and demands marriage.

Edited December 8, 2013 by Kelemvor

[Woggle]

Interesting thread. I've given quite a lot of thought to this over the years and have my own theories. Certainly, societal pressure to conform to socially accepted norms has a lot to do with why someone would essentially place "a losing bet" on such a major life decision. That being said... I find it ironic that those of us who are attractive, over achieving, financially successful, single bachelors... are the exact pool of individuals that are given no incentive to seek out marriage. The exact subset of the population that you would think the gov and society would want to encourage marriage and the production of offspring. It's exactly the opposite effect for someone like myself. I was married for 2 years to a women with multiple degrees and certainly able to sustain herself with a very comfortable lifestyle but lost almost 100K with NO CHILDREN whatsoever. That's after being dragged through a horrible gender biased court system for months while her lawyer extorted me. It all boiled down to legal tactics, legal extortion and justification based on our large difference in income. It was such a bizarre experience for me and a complete eye opener to how the court systems operate. I finally realized just how much someone like myself stands to lose if a marriage doesn't work out. Sure, I'd love to be a dad someday or be involved with a family but I just simply can't risk losing my assets or paying such a painful alimony that it extends my retirement by another 10 years.

 

Compare that situation with your average loser, absent father who has a random job every 2 months and isn't worth pursuing for alimony/child support in court because he simply doesn't have anything. He has no reason to be afraid of marriage at all. He has many more incentives to seek out marriage than someone like myself. So, it's him and his cohorts that contribute to the gene pool while I have to do everything possible to avoid impregnating a woman for fear of losing everything and being dragged through court.

 

I don't know if today's current state of marriage is what females intended it to be when we started this whole liberation movement for women. I don't even know if that's where the problem lies, but you certainly can't blame successful men for being reticent to commit to marriage. I hope I meet someone one day, but I'm coming closer and closer to accepting the inevitable fact that I'll probably never get married, or if I do... it will be with one hell of a prenup agreement and after a vasectomy. It's simply a risk vs rewards and the risk is unfortunately too great at this point in time. Sex is easily obtained through normal relationships, birth control is easily accessible. There's really no reason to seek out marriage even for those of us who would enjoy that level of commitment and possibly a potential family. Instead, guys like me are stuck pursuing serial monogamy with the death of the relationship when a woman backs us into a corner and demands marriage.

 

Very true. Deadbeat dads just get away with it while good men who want to be good fathers seem to have to fight tooth and nail to be a father to their children. It seems so backwards to me to let scumbags off the hook but punish the men who are actually worth something. It makes no sense.

 

This is why men need to look for a woman who has a successful life of her own. I would never want to go after a woman's money but if she has her own she isn't taking mine. If the marriage is truly a success we can share.

[gabgab]

Interesting thread. I've given quite a lot of thought to this over the years and have my own theories. Certainly, societal pressure to conform to socially accepted norms has a lot to do with why someone would essentially place "a losing bet" on such a major life decision. That being said... I find it ironic that those of us who are attractive, over achieving, financially successful, single bachelors... are the exact pool of individuals that are given no incentive to seek out marriage. The exact subset of the population that you would think the gov and society would want to encourage marriage and the production of offspring. It's exactly the opposite effect for someone like myself. I was married for 2 years to a women with multiple degrees and certainly able to sustain herself with a very comfortable lifestyle but lost almost 100K with NO CHILDREN whatsoever. That's after being dragged through a horrible gender biased court system for months while her lawyer extorted me. It all boiled down to legal tactics, legal extortion and justification based on our large difference in income. It was such a bizarre experience for me and a complete eye opener to how the court systems operate. I finally realized just how much someone like myself stands to lose if a marriage doesn't work out. Sure, I'd love to be a dad someday or be involved with a family but I just simply can't risk losing my assets or paying such a painful alimony that it extends my retirement by another 10 years.

 

Compare that situation with your average loser, absent father who has a random job every 2 months and isn't worth pursuing for alimony/child support in court because he simply doesn't have anything. He has no reason to be afraid of marriage at all. He has many more incentives to seek out marriage than someone like myself. So, it's him and his cohorts that contribute to the gene pool while I have to do everything possible to avoid impregnating a woman for fear of losing everything and being dragged through court.

 

I don't know if today's current state of marriage is what females intended it to be when we started this whole liberation movement for women. I don't even know if that's where the problem lies, but you certainly can't blame successful men for being reticent to commit to marriage. I hope I meet someone one day, but I'm coming closer and closer to accepting the inevitable fact that I'll probably never get married, or if I do... it will be with one hell of a prenup agreement and after a vasectomy. It's simply a risk vs rewards and the risk is unfortunately too great at this point in time. Sex is easily obtained through normal relationships, birth control is easily accessible. There's really no reason to seek out marriage even for those of us who would enjoy that level of commitment and possibly a potential family. Instead, guys like me are stuck pursuing serial monogamy with the death of the relationship when a woman backs us into a corner and demands marriage.

 

 

I would never date a man with your attitude. You are bitter and have too much baggage. Not all women are like your ex wife.

 

I am a woman and don't yearn to be married. Divorce does adversely affect men that have money, but marriage definitely benefits men. Nowadays, men are expected to contribute 50% while if their wife doesn't contribute the other 50% she is a "golddigger" and "freeloader." Women do 5x as much housework and childcare as men EVEN when they work the same number of hours, men are much more likely to become emotionally neglectful than women because they are only nice when trying to snag a woman, men get a free pass in our society to cheat, oogle other women and be generally disrespectful due to the "male nature" and "boys will be boys" (while when a woman does these things she is Satan's daughter), men get a free pass to let themselves go but if a woman does it its license for a man to cheat or lose interest, men aren't viewed as less valuable as they age UNLIKE women, oh and if a woman bitches and moans about this she is a nag/too emotional/irrational.

 

I have a sociology degree. Did you know for decades it has been shown married men are happier than single men but the reverse has been found for women? Not one or two studies, but decades worth of studies show this...

 

Marriage is not a deal for woman. We bear a lot more stress.

 

Even disregarding the above paragraph, I'd encourage women not to marry because men can never ever be sexually satisfied with one woman no matter what we say or do. It is basic human biology that men cannot do this because they are wired to constantly want to screw multiple women. Women invest their time, energy and love into a man who down the road will put his energy into other women because once we age, they grow bored. That is like sticking your money in a certificate with 0% interest.

Edited December 9, 2013 by gabgab

[Ninjainpajamas]

You know what I love about people talking about a time where marriage was so great and fantastic in the "good ole days" they seem to always forget that things were like this back in those days...

 

- You married because that's what you did, that was tradition and conservative America, many people didn't attend college, many people went to the service or got married and went straight to work for the rest of their lives and much of it wasn't easy work...men supported the family

 

- Women stayed home, took care of the kids, made sandwiches and dinner...you didn't have much of a choice, you married young you didn't have much aspirations beyond that, you didn't have a strong voice in the world yet as far as women's rights or pursuing any of your dreams unless you were very lucky and even then you were still in a mans world, the sky wasn't the limit... the rest of women were modeled in the image of a conservative and subservient waitresses

 

- You had kids because you had no birth control or abortions and another other methods are not accepted like they are today, you just think about that real hard when you think about who'd you be married to back in those days because children meant marriage, it was the right thing to do if not almost mandatory..I mean look how it is today, it's still a huge pressure

 

- This was all good if you were white, otherwise racism and segregation from a time period you so lovingly behold as the days we had things "right".

 

- You didn't get divorced, you forced a round peg into a square hole because that's what you did, you never had a chance to know what compatibility was or what love was like with another person in some cases...you worked through it because you had to, for the kids, not only because you wanted to and you accepted that sacrifice...get stuck with an abusive alcoholic husband? oh well, suck it up do it for the "family".

 

- You didn't question or think about things back then or question the norm, you just did what you had to and what you were told, it wasn't about freedom of choices more than it was about duty...it was a narrow time, not very open to gays or anything like that...everything back then had to fit in a box and for the most part it did...it all makes sense in the context of the times, i doubt many people wasted their time thinking about things that were just not a reality and those who did faced discrimination

 

These were all contributing factors during that time of why things were the way they were in those days, it had nothing to do with "love" or knowing how to love or anything like that, humans have not evolved and changed in a matter of generations...it was the ideal being sold by conservative America of how a family unit should be, it wasn't the freedom of choice we have now, especially for women, it's arguably the best time in history to be a woman...in fact I believe because we have so much freedom that people are still learning how to use it because this is fundamentally a radical change in history that isn't influenced by tradition, culture or religion...we have the freedom as individuals for once to make the best choice for "ourselves"...we don't have to fit into this nice little box and black and white "good versus evil".

 

Some people refuse to flex that muscle and want to go backwards, instead they resort to nostalgia of times past they know nothing about...but that's your choice, commitment isn't marriage...if that was the case then why did some of you get divorced? doesn't that defeat the whole purpose and your argument? what better was that than a relationship or even a FWB? because back in the "good ole days" I'm sure you'd have been married to that person or maybe even someone else way before the.

 

People have been surviving on this planet around the family unit for thousand and thousands of years maybe even since the very beginning, it's funny to me how threatening some people think that being an individual for once and actually living your life for you and based on your needs, making the rules that fit you best instead of someone elses opinion is a regression...you ever think if things were so right all along why we're even here? there are still plenty of countries knee deep in tradition and family values, you think they're necessarily happier in their lives for it?

 

Maybe if people just tried living for themselves for once, they might actually like it...instead of worrying about what everyone else thinks and doing shet they don't really want to do but just to fit in or because of external pressure.

 

IMO and from my view...many of those people don't appear to be blissfully happy if not the opposite, so forgive me for missing out on all the rage personally...besides, men want to marry eventually....they just rather do it when they're old and can't get any young vagina anymore and played the field, and then they'll just settle with some younger woman who's about 10 years or younger while they are in their 40's or 50's.

 

So you see, marriage it's not completely useless...the problem is their future wives could be in elementary school or just being born and they've got to wait for them to grow up first to "legal" age-limit.

Edited December 9, 2013 by Ninjainpajamas

[SJC2008]

Marriage is the leading cause of divorce.

[strongnrelaxed]

 

...The main reason is we've lost trust with each other. We don't even trust ourselves anymore. We text each other and not talk to each other. We don't communicate ...

 

You make a good point, but these are symptoms. There are other forces that run deeper than this. The harsh cold truth is that society's norms change and this is the next change. Women are gaining power and they are increasingly blaming men for everything - including this.

 

You did not blame men, but spend more than a few hours reading posts here and you will get the idea.

 

To your point about communication - there is no such thing when one party already has it all figured out.

 

Some of the most bizarre "communication" I have ever experienced have ended with her saying "yeah, but...."

 

This is bad and getting worse. I wish some of the good women of the world would step up and grab their power back. We need to stop this insane gender war.

Edited December 17, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[strongnrelaxed]

There are a fair number of women (men) who still like the fairy-tale marriage. Not the fairy-tale wedding necessarily, but some people still believe in the institution of marriage. I'm one and so is my gf.

 

You just said a mouthful brother.

 

I hope you hold onto this post. Keep it safe - email it to yourself. You just admitted that you believe in a fairy tale. This is THE problem.

[strongnrelaxed]

I would never date a man with your attitude. You are bitter and have too much baggage. Not all women are like your ex wife.

 

I am a woman and don't yearn to be married. Divorce does adversely affect men that have money, but marriage definitely benefits men. Nowadays, men are expected to contribute 50% while if their wife doesn't contribute the other 50% she is a "golddigger" and "freeloader." Women do 5x as much housework and childcare as men EVEN when they work the same number of hours, men are much more likely to become emotionally neglectful than women because they are only nice when trying to snag a woman, men get a free pass in our society to cheat, oogle other women and be generally disrespectful due to the "male nature" and "boys will be boys" (while when a woman does these things she is Satan's daughter), men get a free pass to let themselves go but if a woman does it its license for a man to cheat or lose interest, men aren't viewed as less valuable as they age UNLIKE women, oh and if a woman bitches and moans about this she is a nag/too emotional/irrational.

 

I have a sociology degree. Did you know for decades it has been shown married men are happier than single men but the reverse has been found for women? Not one or two studies, but decades worth of studies show this...

 

Marriage is not a deal for woman. We bear a lot more stress.

 

Even disregarding the above paragraph, I'd encourage women not to marry because men can never ever be sexually satisfied with one woman no matter what we say or do. It is basic human biology that men cannot do this because they are wired to constantly want to screw multiple women. Women invest their time, energy and love into a man who down the road will put his energy into other women because once we age, they grow bored. That is like sticking your money in a certificate with 0% interest.

 

I will not waste my time debunking the propaganda, but men are most definitely worse off in marriage and in divorce. There are a number of studies that show this - google is even good enough for this one.

 

I ask that you consider reading literature that refutes what you have learned. Part of the problem is that Universities have stopped trying to be balanced and objective. Post modernism has precluded this.

 

And here we are.

Edited December 17, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[OpenBook]

men are most definitely worse off in marriage and in divorce. There are a number of studies that show this - google is even good enough for this one.

 

You mean like this one?:

 

Benefits of Marriage: Men's Health

 

or how about this one?:

 

Marriage and Men's Health - Harvard Health Publications

 

or this?:

 

Why Should a Man Get Married? - The Simple Dollar

 

 

(although divorce is rough on men, I'll give you that... but who ISN'T it rough on?)

[Grumpybutfun]

strongnrelaxed:

I guess if men are opting out of marriage, the question is what are you looking for? What kind of relationships do you find to be beneficial? What is next? I think a good relationship is a good relationship regardless of labels. What do you think yours looks like?

G

[strongnrelaxed]

strongnrelaxed:

I guess if men are opting out of marriage, the question is what are you looking for?... I think a good relationship is a good relationship regardless of labels.

 

I no longer know how to answer this question. Everywhere I go leads me in a circle. I have known some amazing women and I know that LTR's can be the best thing ever.

 

But men and women have our dark sides. Some are darker than others, but we all have things we keep inside - tendencies or temptations we suppress. That is what being a functioning ethical adult is all about.

 

There are fewer and fewer women around me who have the character to control their mess. Society is aiding and abetting this. With every story I hear about a false rape allegation, a cheating wife, a scheming conniving woman, a man being torn apart in divorce court, statistics on how many men die each year in support or defense of family/women/country etc, and how few women die for these things, it becomes clear that I am ultimately expendable and worthless to society.

 

My past contributions mean nothing - just my past transgressions. My future needs mean nothing, only my future economic value.

 

This is the harsh cold reality for men today. Women have risen in power and now it is their time.

 

I hope they wield power better than men have in the past.

 

So far, it does not loop pretty - in fact it looks pretty bleak; for men and for me and relationships.

[nescafe1982]

I, for one, am happy I don't share your reality. I mean, it would be nice to rule the world a la global gender conspiracy, but damn it sounds like a lot of responsibility.

 

Fact is: women gaining rights and access to power does not mean men have been subordinated. Loss of former privileges does not equate to oppression.

 

Men (and women) have the option to not get married, to opt out of the institution. It's a voluntary status, which men who want a woman around for a lifetime enter into. Let's pretend for a moment that there are only two choices here: get married or stay single (of course we know there are many, many more selections, but whatever). It's not "oppression" to have to choose the single life if you don't want marriage. If you don't want to get married, it's also not "oppression" if you struggle to find women who will date you.

 

We all get old. Ranting against marriage is a young man's game, I'm convinced. Get back to me in 40 years and I'll tell you if I was right.

[Ninjainpajamas]

It's a construct of society and its still a strong influence and pressure for your the everyday man....so unless you're rich or someone famous that makes a living off being a single rock star/movie star or what not, age and not really having and alternative as well as the fears and realistic options...I imagine most men will fall in line...even those who strongly oppose it, because there is a limitation of how far one can get their needs met and age will catch up with people and they'll be looking for different things as its apparent it must be done at some point, maybe even just to satisfy or keep a woman...so you can run but you can't hide, it's likely many will submit in the end.

 

Plus by then as a man you can just get someone much younger and women seem to be fine with that, you don't need to be concerned with time and your age group.

 

However you'll notice that won't keep men from stringing it out...and also as fine as people are with marriage they seem equally content with divorce, no judgments on getting once, twice, ten times married...so I see men go that route, marriages are essentially relationships these days but I also tend to see men get burned out after the second or third marriage and just say forget get it I'm done...so I'm too sure they will in the end be married like the guys just trying to wait till their too old as to where they need to marry to settle down or have that family.

 

People that marry young, it's not like they knew what they were doing anyway...they figured that out with time and the experience, but if they end up single they'll be at a loss and many of them remarry quickly just to feel back in their comfort zone again.

 

It's hard learning about dating and being single for people who never really had to do it and it's been ages and the rules have changed since they've been married.

[nescafe1982]

I imagine most men will fall in line...even those who strongly oppose it, because there is a limitation of how far one can get their needs met and age will catch up with people and they'll be looking for different things as its apparent it must be done at some point, maybe even just to satisfy or keep a woman...so you can run but you can't hide, it's likely many will submit in the end.

 

Um, be that as it may: a man who chooses not to get married and finds himself lonely and single is not "oppressed." Neither is a man who marries because he wants to keep a woman satisfied.

 

Indeed, a man who marries a woman merely because he's scared of losing her is far from "oppressed." He's doing her a disservice. That's mean, not weak.

 

My beef with framing voluntary marriage within the perspective of oppression is in the assumption that a man is entitled to a woman's attentions/love/affections/sex (and therefore being denied this experience because he doesn't want to marry is unfair or oppressive). This is not the case.

 

It's also laughable in a world where real forms of oppression continue to exist. A sad misappropriation of telos.