Christian Universalism

[avon20]

Are there any christian universalists here on LS? For those who are interested universalism is the belief that because Christ died for the sins of the world, was buried and rose again that everyone is going to heaven.

 

This is what I believe. All people regardless of lifestyle or beliefs have been made righteous, holy and perfect by the finished work of Christ on the cross. Nobody has to believe in Jesus to go to heaven. Even atheists and Satanists are going to heaven.

 

I believe this is the gospel or good news that Paup preached. Romans chapter 5 Paul compares Adam and Christ. Just as Adam's sin brought death and condemnation to all so Christ's righteousness brought life and justification to all.

 

As a universalist I believe that hell does not exist. The word hell in the bible means the grave. Christ came to save us from the power of death and the grave.

 

Christian universalism is making a comeback these days. More books are coming out such as the gospel of inclusion by Carlton Pearson. Mike Williams also has a book titled "One. The Gospel According to Mike".

 

"Dropping Hell and Embracing Grace" is another by Ivan Rodgers.

[JamesM]

Congratulations on your belief. It is a wonderful and soothing belief. It means that no matter what you do in life, you will enjoy eternal happiness. Every human in the world would like this belief to be true.

 

I am well aware of the recent books on Univeralism. You forgot Rob Bell's book. There is no punishment for sin and even those who hate God will spend an eternity with God. Christ's death and resurrection was sufficient for even the greatest of sinners...even if he does not want to be saved.

 

Ironically enough, if univeralism were true, then for an atheist, Heaven would be Hell. There are many other difficulties with accepting this as the truth. If it were true, then we no longer have any need for the Bible, church, morality, etc. And there is more.

 

I try to stay away from the Spirituality board as most discussions lead to nowhere, and I should probably not respond to your thread either. Alas...my curiosity got me!

 

Why have you reached the conclusion that Universalism is true?

[Eve]

H'mmm... Maybe if purgatory was chucked in as a level to make sure the paedos have got their heads sorted? .. but no.. I have no confidence in members of the human race who are basically selfish, evil beings being otherwise, even if given such a mad free ride.

 

All in all I have come to the conclusion that it won't actually be any great surprise as to who will be in Heaven. We are not supporsed to go pointing fingers.. but really? .. Even I could work that **** out for the most part.

 

Take care,

Eve x

[mercy]

There must be two heavens because I'm not spending eternity with pedophiles or any person that has harmed a defenseless child.

 

And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. (Mark 9:42 KJV)

[mercy]

H'mmm... Maybe if purgatory was chucked in as a level to make sure the paedos have got their heads sorted? .. but no.. I have no confidence in members of the human race who are basically selfish, evil beings being otherwise, even if given such a mad free ride.

 

All in all I have come to the conclusion that it won't actually be any great surprise as to who will be in Heaven. We are not supporsed to go pointing fingers.. but really? .. Even I could work that **** out for the most part.

 

Take care,

Eve x

 

I think we're going to be more shocked as to who's not there.

[avon20]

Since the bible can be interpreted many different ways because we have hundreds of denominations what if it is true that God lets everyone into heaven? Would that upset you if it turns out that way? I mean it is His heaven and God alone has the final say to decide who gets in and who does not. If God decides to have mercy on all then who are we to say that's not fair?

[xxoo]

I love the Universalist philosophy, although I can not claim to be a true believer of any sort of Christianity.

 

Not wanting to share heaven with people who did evil on this earth is interesting to me, as we all do evil on earth. We are all "sinners", in the Christian vernacular. I can get behind the idea that the soul--freed from the body and the mind, and the suffering of being a human--of every person is good. And once the body and mind is shed, there is no "pedophile" left. Only a pure soul, finally freed from the torment of living in a flaw human incarnation.

[OpenBook]

I don't know if that's true or not. I'm just glad it's not my call as to who goes to heaven and who doesn't. I wouldn't be fair about it at all!

[mercy]

Since the bible can be interpreted many different ways because we have hundreds of denominations what if it is true that God lets everyone into heaven? Would that upset you if it turns out that way? I mean it is His heaven and God alone has the final say to decide who gets in and who does not. If God decides to have mercy on all then who are we to say that's not fair?

 

I'm sorry, I hope my opinions haven't offended you.

 

I have strong opinions about pedophiles that aren't going to change.

 

I'll stay out of your thread.

[mercy]

mercy, isn't one of the points in Christian theology concerning heaven is that we're all going to be remade in the image of god, or somesuch? So there's going to be no pedophilia any more than there will be lying, greed, violence or hate, even though everybody in heaven will have been guilty of one or all of these things at some point in their life.

 

There is no doubt that there are many pedophiles who have repented and given their life go Jesus, so that isn't likely to change regardless of whether universalism is true.

 

The only difference I can see is that it simply removes the requirement to believe.

 

joe, I worked through the courts with the victims, some of the worst cases. I hope they rot in hell.

 

Okay now I will stay out of this thread.

[pie2]

As a universalist I believe that hell does not exist. The word hell in the bible means the grave. Christ came to save us from the power of death and the grave.

 

What do universalists believe in regards to Satan? What is his role, if hell does not exist? And if everyone can go back to heaven, then will Satan be going back as well?

[TheFinalWord]

Since the bible can be interpreted many different ways because we have hundreds of denominations what if it is true that God lets everyone into heaven? Would that upset you if it turns out that way? I mean it is His heaven and God alone has the final say to decide who gets in and who does not. If God decides to have mercy on all then who are we to say that's not fair?

 

When studying a denomination, I think you have to do your own independent study as well Many people died to give us the bible so we could read it and study it on our own. Don't just believe what a preacher says, test if what they say is true.

 

"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." -- Acts 17:11

 

Why? Well, the apostles warned us that many false teachers are in the world claiming the name of Christ.

 

"Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— and all the brothers who are with me. I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ."

 

Universalism is not just a denomination with differences in minor issues, it majorly deviates from foundational orthodox Christian doctrines.

 

Good place to start:

 

Universalism | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

 

Peace <><

[D-Lish]

Maybe if people spent MORE time focusing on living a good life simply for the quiet reward of being a good person- we'd all be better off.

 

#Atheistsrock

[avon20]

What do universalists believe in regards to Satan? What is his role, if hell does not exist? And if everyone can go back to heaven, then will Satan be going back as well?[/QUO

 

I can't speak for all universalists but from my own study I do believe Satan and the demons will be saved too.

 

Colossians 1 talks about how through Christ all things are reconciled to God- both things in heaven and things on earth.

 

Philippians 2:9-11 says every knee shall bow in heaven on earth and under the earth and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

 

So my understanding is that everyone will bring glory to God. This must mean that at some point there will be a sincere change of heart among all people and Satan that makes the confession of Jesus in a way that glorifies God. This can't just be talking about a lip service confession as that does not bring glory to God. It also can't mean that God forces people to bow their knee before sending them to hell as that would not bring Him glory either. It means that as each person comes to a personal revelation of who God is and His overwhelming unconditional love for them then they will voluntarily bow their knee and confess. Each person will do this in their own time.

[avon20]

I'm sorry, I hope my opinions haven't offended you.

 

I have strong opinions about pedophiles that aren't going to change.

 

I'll stay out of your thread. [/quote

 

 

I understand that but that's why we have human government and civic laws down here on earth to prosecute child molestors. We have our own ways of administering punishment down here while God shows mercy. Romans 13 talks about the importance of everyone obeying the government including paying taxes. If I do not pay taxes that does not mean I am going to hell but it might land me in jail. That's an issue I have to answer to the government for but not the Lord.

 

If a man cheats on his wife then he has to deal with the consequence of destroying his marriage. He is accountable to his wife for his actions not to God.

 

There are still plenty of earthly consequences that I think would be enough incentive for people to live responsibly. We do not need the fear of an afterlife hell to be that incentive.

Edited October 25, 2012 by avon20

[Hawaii50]

There must be two heavens because I'm not spending eternity with pedophiles or any person that has harmed a defenseless child.

 

And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. (Mark 9:42 KJV)

 

A sin is a sin is a sin, right?! So as long as a pedo seeks forgiveness in your christ, he'll be on the VIP list.

[JamesM]

 

There are still plenty of earthly consequences that I think would be enough incentive for people to live responsibly. We do not need the fear of an afterlife hell to be that incentive.

 

Some of this is true. There are consequences here on earth, but many of them don't deter us from committing the action.

 

But if universalism is true, then why believe in a God at all? Any god? Why be concerned about an afterlife?

 

And no one has a choice...we will all be in Heaven. And for some, Heaven won't be fun because of who is there...unless we have all been changed to love everyone...which means there is no free will.

 

And as mercy said, this is not a just belief. A child molester who never was sorry can now live in happiness next to the child whose life he ruined? Is that God just and loving?

 

And why did Christ die on the cross? If universalism is true, then the statement in the Bible that says no man is righteous is a lie, because technically, it doesn't matter. Everyone will end up in Heaven. And Christ's death was unnecessary, because even those who deny him and aren't saved will be saved.

 

This strips the Gospel of its power and distorts the love of God.It leads to moral indifference and eliminates the need for evangelism.

 

While you may believe in universalism, I don't think it can be based on the Christian Bible.

[BetheButterfly]

Are there any christian universalists here on LS? For those who are interested universalism is the belief that because Christ died for the sins of the world, was buried and rose again that everyone is going to heaven.

 

I think Christian universalism is very interesting. However, I do not ascribe to the belief that everyone automatically goes to Heaven because that is not Biblical. Jesus uses parables to show that people will most definitely be punished for what they don't do (not helping those in need) on earth; please see Matthew 25:31-46 and Luke 16:19-25. John's writings concerning Jesus in Revelation also make it clear that people who disobey God are not awarded the same as those who obey God: Revelation 20:11-15.

 

Personally, I am glad that according to my belief, child abusers, rapists, torturers, and people who hurt other people and/or torture animals do go to hell if they have not repented. If I were an Atheist, I would think the most horrible tragedy in life on earth is the fact that many people who do horribly cruel things do not receive just punishment in their lifetimes. As a Christian, I HATE that some people (including "Christians") hurt each other and animals. I really wish that God did not allow people to have free will in this case because of all the pain inflicted on other human beings and amazing, precious life forms that are not humans (dogs and cats for example).

 

This is what I believe. All people regardless of lifestyle or beliefs have been made righteous, holy and perfect by the finished work of Christ on the cross. Nobody has to believe in Jesus to go to heaven. Even atheists and Satanists are going to heaven.

I like C.S. Lewis' thoughts concerning Heaven, which if I understand correctly, suggest that God takes into consideration all the equation of a person as in why they believe what they believe and do what they do. However, any Atheist or satanist or Christian or Muslim or Buddhist or Hindu or anyone who hurts others, I do believe God will hold them accountable unless they have heart and soul repented for hurting others.

I believe this is the gospel or good news that Paup preached. Romans chapter 5 Paul compares Adam and Christ. Just as Adam's sin brought death and condemnation to all so Christ's righteousness brought life and justification to all.

I think it's very important to focus on what Jesus said. What Paul said is nice and is helpful, but Paul is not Jesus.

 

As a universalist I believe that hell does not exist. The word hell in the bible means the grave. Christ came to save us from the power of death and the grave.

Do you believe God punishes sin?

 

Christian universalism is making a comeback these days. More books are coming out such as the gospel of inclusion by Carlton Pearson. Mike Williams also has a book titled "One. The Gospel According to Mike".

 

"Dropping Hell and Embracing Grace" is another by Ivan Rodgers.

Again, I think Christian universalism is interesting but to me, the issue with it is not taking into consideration the horrible crimes people commit. I do not believe that God lets people get away with hurting others. Even those who repent, I do believe God punishes in some way (though I believe they will go to Heaven) but I do believe God is 100% just and those who do not receive punishment for hurting others on earth receive it after their earthly bodies die.

 

God, by the way, hates evil. Just because Jesus commanded his followers to love, that does not negate the fact that God punishes people who disobey Him.

 

As Jesus says in another parable, (I boldened some.)

Matthew 13 NIV - The Parable of the Sower - That same - Bible Gateway

 

"47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

 

I believe that people who call themselves Christians can be "bad fish" too, which is why it is so important to strive to obey God and love Him and love others, as Jesus says are the 2 most important commandments (Matthew 22:34-40). Jesus says that many who call him "Lord" (Master) are not truly his.

 

Matthew 7 (I boldened some of Jesus' words.)

Matthew 7 NIV - Judging Others -

 

"13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. 15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

 

 

We need to make sure to be "good trees" because what Jesus did for us once for all does not mean that we can hurt others!!! It means by God's grace, our sins of forgiven BUT we are called to love!!! If we do not love, there will be consequences.

[Eve]

What do universalists believe in regards to Satan? What is his role, if hell does not exist? And if everyone can go back to heaven, then will Satan be going back as well?[/QUO

 

I can't speak for all universalists but from my own study I do believe Satan and the demons will be saved too.

 

Colossians 1 talks about how through Christ all things are reconciled to God- both things in heaven and things on earth.

 

Philippians 2:9-11 says every knee shall bow in heaven on earth and under the earth and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

 

So my understanding is that everyone will bring glory to God. This must mean that at some point there will be a sincere change of heart among all people and Satan that makes the confession of Jesus in a way that glorifies God. This can't just be talking about a lip service confession as that does not bring glory to God. It also can't mean that God forces people to bow their knee before sending them to hell as that would not bring Him glory either. It means that as each person comes to a personal revelation of who God is and His overwhelming unconditional love for them then they will voluntarily bow their knee and confess. Each person will do this in their own time.

 

I suppose the main question is, how does this belief help you in life? I would imagine it could make a person a bit of a doormat, I mean, if there are no consequences why challenge anything?

 

Take care,

Eve x

[BetheButterfly]

So as long as a pedo seeks forgiveness in your christ, he'll be on the VIP list.

 

I disagree with that.

 

Jesus gave the following example in a parable which I believe teaches that God does not excuse people who claim to be his yet hurts others:

 

Luke 12 (I boldened some.)

Luke 12 NIV - Warnings and Encouragements - Bible Gateway

 

"42 The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43 It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers."

 

That's a pretty good warning to not hurt people, even if one calls him/herself a servant (of God).

 

As for pedos, Jesus is very clear that hurting children is a strict no-no. I love the following verses where Jesus shows how important children are to God and hurting them (in any way) is NEVER acceptable!!! (By the way, I also believe these passages show that children go to Heaven, regardless of their beliefs.)

 

Matthew 18 (I boldened some.)

Matthew 18 NIV - The Greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven - Bible Gateway

 

"At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.

6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come! 8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven. [11] [a]

12 “What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13 And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish."

Matthew 19 (I boldened some.)

Matthew 19 NIV - Divorce - When Jesus had finished - Bible Gateway

 

"13 Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. 14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15 When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there."

 

 

Since causing a child to stumble hurts them, how much more inflicting pain on them hurts them. Pedos hurt children. I do not believe God accepts them unless they have truly repented, which is very difficult for them to do. Jesus' use of hyperbole in verses 8-9 show how important it is not to sin but rather to control oneself. Now, hyperbole does not mean to take it literally and do that, but it does show that one needs to strive not to hurt others. In most of Jesus' parables concerning hell/punishment, the emphasis is on punishment being for those who hurt others, such as in Matthew 18 in the context with the children, or don't help others, as in the context of Matthew 25:31-46.

[Eve]

So my understanding is that everyone will bring glory to God. This must mean that at some point there will be a sincere change of heart among all people and Satan that makes the confession of Jesus in a way that glorifies God. This can't just be talking about a lip service confession as that does not bring glory to God. It also can't mean that God forces people to bow their knee before sending them to hell as that would not bring Him glory either. It means that as each person comes to a personal revelation of who God is and His overwhelming unconditional love for them then they will voluntarily bow their knee and confess. Each person will do this in their own time.

 

I suppose the main question is, how does this belief help you in life? I would imagine it could make a person a bit of a doormat, I mean, if there are no consequences why challenge anything?

 

Take care,

Eve x

[xxoo]

I suppose the main question is, how does this belief help you in life? I would imagine it could make a person a bit of a doormat, I mean, if there are no consequences why challenge anything?

 

Take care,

Eve x

 

There is still judgment and consequence among men on Earth. As long as the souls are in human form, they are still capable of evil.

[Eve]

There is still judgment and consequence among men on Earth. As long as the souls are in human form, they are still capable of evil.

 

I am interested in what this looks like in real, lived terms. Does this mean that the OP forgives everyone because their behaviour is see to be a bodily condition only?

 

Take care,

Eve x

[xxoo]

I am interested in what this looks like in real, lived terms. Does this mean that the OP forgives everyone because their behaviour is see to be a bodily condition only?

 

Take care,

Eve x

 

My universalist experience comes from the UU side (unitarian universalist), which has its roots in Christian univeralism. I am not any kind of authority on Christian universalism.

 

But universalism suggests that God forgives absolutely, not that humans must forgive. As humans, forgiveness benefits the forgiver, but it is a huge challenge for all of us regardless of faith.

 

eta...forgiving does not require being a doormat. You can forgive while also having necessary boundaries.

Edited October 25, 2012 by xxoo

[Eve]

My universalist experience comes from the UU side (unitarian universalist), which has its roots in Christian univeralism. I am not any kind of authority on Christian universalism.

 

But universalism suggests that God forgives absolutely, not that humans must forgive. As humans, forgiveness benefits the forgiver, but it is a huge challenge for all of us regardless of faith.

 

eta...forgiving does not require being a doormat. You can forgive while also having necessary boundaries.

 

Ok, I looked up the UU belief statement. Not heard of this before.

 

I could understand more if the theme the OP proposed was as your belief proposes; there is an abandonment of Christ/Scripture being central.

 

.. I will assume that CU is a person centred philosphy rather than a living faith.

 

Take care,

Eve x